My spouse and I filled out the emotional needs questionnaires yesterday.

Her top 5:
1. Honesty
2. Companionship
3. Intimate conversation
4. Family Support
5. Financial Support

Mine:
1. Intimate conversation
2. Companionship
3. Sex
4. Honesty
5. Affection

The next day, I can't help but wonder: how do you know you're being honest with yourself and your wife is really being honest with herself in ranking these? It seems like there is potential to distort your own feelings out of a sense of what is socially/culturally acceptable (e.g. who wants to admit that financial support is first on their list? Or, as a man, are you lying if you say anything other than sex is #1?), or distort your answers so as to not hurt your spouse (I imagine it would be a tough thing to say "Physical Attractiveness" is my #1 to a spouse that does not consider themselves attractive)

I read that spouses frequently have polar opposite top 5's. Yet when I look at my wife and my results, which we wrote independently, we have quite a few in common. Can that realistically happen?

I'm also not sure if we are fitting the gender stereotypes.

How important is it that we are really, really sure these are the ones in the right order before we start building on these in our UA time?

Your insight, or pointing to any particular resource/article, would be most appreciated. The exercise was more difficult than I thought.

From "His Needs, Her Needs":

The top ENs for a typical man:

1. Sexual Fulfilment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Physical Attractiveness
4. Domestic Support
5. Admiration

For a typical woman, they are:

1. Affection
2. Intimate Conversation
3. Honesty and Openness
4. Financial Support
5. Family Commitment

Simply because these are typical doesn't mean there is cause for concern if they don't match yours. My wife and I have many of them flipped around between us. They also are dynamic, depending on circumstances. Nearly everybody who has been the victim of an affair will place Honesty and Openness near the top.

So, the fact that you both share many top ENs is good. Now you know where to start. Don't overthink this. Instead, go with the flow.

I would go with these for now. In 6 months, do it again and see if you have the same results.. My husband and I were different as well. Recreational Companionship and Sex were my top needs. My husband's were honesty, family commitment and affection...
We were quite backwards...

Also, I've decided that financial support is VERY important to me as I broke up with a boyfriend that I didn't think could provide it. However, it doesn't feel like a need anymore because my husband has always done it so well. If he were irresponsible and we didn't have enough money, then that would be a big issue.

Hey Test Guy,

Can you ask the moderators to merge your threads. It's best the stick with one thread.

I hope you start reading up Dr Harleys
Materials. This would likely help you along.


At the end of the day you both tune into one another top emotional needs. But know the 15- 20 hours of US time are about meeting the needs for intimate conversation, affection, SF,and recreation companionship.

To continue, I'd take the recreation companionship questionnaire too. That way you can experiment with activities for UA time you want to try. It takes a willingness to test the waters to see what you are both enthusiastic about. It's OK if one spouse is a little skeptical at first but if you try it and if either are not enthusiastic you knock that off.

It's best to find activities you can do where you both can talk to one another along the way. You don't want anyone else to be part of the date. No children. No other couples. The focus is on the two of you. Plus during your date don't get into relationship talk or try to be your spouse's therapist. Get to know one another all over again.

Your wife wants honesty. So in your conversations talk about your day. How you felt and so on. Talk about plans for the future. Keep her informed. Perhaps you tend to stuff it.

And because you have listed affection. Write down for your wife what that means to YOU. Typically this is tops for females. Dr Harleys does a good job discussing meeting th ok this need and all others in his book His Needs Her Needs (hope you get it) it's my top need and ranks high for my husband too. I know it's important to inform one another in this regard.

Hope this helps you get started or at least gives you the ideas.

The family support need is likely important due to young children. Take a look at this one in His Needs Her Needs and Five steps to Romantic Love. Meeting this need also like UA time requires a time commitment. Time together as a family doing fun stuff together each week. Check it out. You have lots of homework! But this is healthy and exciting. In a short time you will feel less lost regarding marriage, family and intimacy in general.

Sure, I can do so. I purposefully created a different thread since I thought this topic could be viewed somewhat independently of my previous post on sex in particular. So in other words, all topics that I post in relation to my relationship should be under 1 thread? I just want to make sure I observe the guidelines correctly. Thanks!

Testguy, please pay close attention to graceful's comment because at the end of day, the most important emotional needs are the top 4 intimate emotional needs, which should be met during 15 hours of scheduled UA time per week. THOSE are the emotional needs that create the greatest love bank deposits that lead to romantic love. Other EN's, like financial support, domestic support are not needs that, when met, will not cause a person to fall in love. Since they can be done apart, they won't create intimacy that leads to romantic love.

I have ordered the His Needs Her Needs book and just waiting for it now.

Perhaps some of these questions are answered in the book so I am happy to reserve my questions until after I receive it and read through it, but just thinking out loud:

- You're right, family support is due to young kids, and one of them autistic. I am seeing there is definitely work that I need to do in terms of time management, it seems really hard. 15+ hours UA, time with family including kids as you mentioned, and my wife also noted she would like to see me doing more one-on-one time with my kids, and as well she is happy with my $200k salary 'but it could always be higher'. I recognize her need for all these things, but I am worried I won't be able to do everything.

- My wife is the one who is reluctant to get away from the house on a 'date' more than once a month, or even take time for herself while I watch the kids. It has been a frequent source of argument. I just don't see convincing her of the importance of UA time when she is certain (and I tend to agree) that most friends, family, teachers aren't able to handle our young autistic son. I think I have made some progress recently by convincing her to play a game with me on the couch tonight instead of just falling asleep in front of the TV. Does that even count? If she is unwilling to increase our UA time, should I be seeking a 3rd party for help, like a counselor?

- My wife is surprised that I even wanted to fill out a questionnaire, surprised that I see anything 'in trouble' with our relationship and that I would want to work on continuous improvement. I have always known her to be very honest and believe she's being honest with me when she says this. She ranked me above-average on quality and quantity on all of her top 5 needs, the only exceptions being intimate conversation and family commitment where she rated me 'average' and felt I could be spending more time and being more 'present' mentally, not as distracted by work. Meanwhile, I frequently feel dissatisfied and lonely as we go long stretches without sex, affection, admiration and even intimate conversation, before and after our kids came along. Am I wrong and she is sugar-coating things for my benefit, and I'm in fact doing worse job than she says? Is she simply not being honest with herself? Or, does she genuinely think I'm a good partner, and I'm the one disappointed simply because I'm not being 'assertive' enough about my own needs? I am often reluctant to articulate my needs, with the thinking that no affection/admiration/sex is better than affection/admiration/sex that I had to beg for. Not to mention I don't want to cause an aversion to affection/admiration/sex by being demanding or whiney about it.

- Moreover, my wife has only listed 2 of the 4 most 'intimate' of the needs in her top 5, whereas I have all 4. Again I have to wonder if she is being honest with herself that affection and sex are low on the list, or if it's just affection and sex with me in particular that she doesn't value.

I suspect I'm overthinking things...

Testguy, this is the big miss in your marriage. If you can solve this problem of UA time, you will solve this problem:
The biggest problem in your marriage is that your wife has fallen out of love. You don't spend enough time together meeting each others EN's to sustain a marriage. The canary in the mine is the fact that she no longer wants to have sex with you. Playing a game on the couch is like arranging the curtains on the sinking Titanic. If you want your marriage to work, you are going to have to right the sinking ship. It will take persuading her to go out with you 4 times a week on dates.

You can't possibly expect to change your marriage unless you make radical changes in your lifestyle. I understand it is very hard to get babysitters when you have an autistic child, but it is in your child's best interest for you to figure that out. The most important thing to your child is his parents marriage. It would ruin his life if you ended up divorced.

This program does not work without following the policy of undivided attention, so if you won't do that, then there is no point in doing the other steps.

Have you read Dr Harley's articles about undivided attention?

• "The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are not in love. Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other."

• "But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again."

• "Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other."

• "You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintaining a passionate and fulfilling marriage."

The Policy of Undivided Attention


Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment ["in love" feeling] to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. The UA time will create the romantic feelings. The worst thing you can do is demand that she make love to you when she is not in love. That is how aversions are created. The solution to get her to fall in love with you. Women are in love are motivated to make love to their partners.

The latter suggestion is a concern because if her leisure time is spent away from you, it will become more important than your marriage. Any leisure time should be spent together, not apart.

I've read the UA article you reference multiple times. I've shared it with my spouse who has sort of dismissed it as unrealistic. I have to admit most couples we know do not come close to that kind of UA time, so it's hard to make an argument that we should be, when we have the autistic son to boot.

It's heart breaking to hear that she has fallen out of love with me.

Agreed. She insists on little to no leisure time at all for herself, despite me, her parents and our child psychologist encouraging her to take time away from the kids. Her leisure time is falling asleep in front of the TV, and occasionally browsing Facebook reading articles in the afternoon. Anything else that happens occassionally (going to friends' houses, playdates with the kids, shopping at the mall, dinner at her parents, a once a month date night ,etc.) we do together.

Agreed, which is why I rarely talk about my needs explicitly, hesitate to initiate sex (1-2 times a year in the last few years, only when she prompted me).

Still, there's something I can't quite reconcile - men need to initiate because we have the testosterone. Yet we shouldn't initiate if our wives are not in love. My wife says she is in love and rates me fairly high on meeting her needs, despite our lack of UA time. So, should I be focused on getting her to fall in love with me, and wait for her to initiate?

In the last few months I have taken a chance and initiated more frequently and she's been fairly receptive, and encouraged me to 'keep trying as long as I don't mind the occasional rejection'. Should I take her at her word or again forget initiating sex and just focus on whatever UA time I can get to meet her emotional needs.

And actually, forget sex which seems more complicated and just look at affection. Should I continue to show her affection even if she doesn't show as much back? (ie. I give her a good morning hug, she ignores me, angry because of the kids latest behavior) She says her more aloof attitude is because she's simply not a touchy-feely person and doesn't rank affection very highly on her needs list. Is she being honest about this, or in actuality has fallen out of love and simply hasn't realized it or isn't being honest with me about that?

Testguy, I would not dismiss this point because the success of your marriage depends on it. I would spend all of your focus on persuading her to start doing this with you.

And yes, I understand that other couples don't do this. That is why the divorce rate is 60% and only 20% of married people are in love. Couples that are in love don't get divorced though. We aren't trying to make you like "other couples;" we are trying to recover your marriage.

I would keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved. Don't give up this easily.

No, you shouldn't DEMAND. You asked if you should be more "aggressive" about sex. And I say no. I am not saying don't initiate it. Don't push her into having sex with you if she has no desire.


She has fallen out of love. When a woman has fallen out of love, they rank the intimate emotional needs much lower. When they are in love, they rank intimate emotional needs much higher.

I would be as affectionate as possible without annoying her. I would call her several times during the day and do sweet things for her.

If you cannot persuade her on this point, I would enlist one of the Marriage Builders counselors such as Dr. Jennifer Chalmers, who is Dr Harley's daughter. They do phone coaching. It is pricey [$200] but it is worth every penny. They don't believe in endless counseling but will give you a plan to turn your marriage around.

If you can PERSUADE your wife to participate in this program, we can walk you through the whole thing. Many of us have gone through the program ourselves and I believe you are organized and methodical enough to follow a plan. Your only obstacle is motivating your wife.

With your high salary, could you hire a nanny or a babysitter who specializes in taking care of special needs children?

Then you could schedule your UA time in the 4 hour blocks that Dr. Harley recommends.

Here is another good thread on UA.

The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Agreed. I've suggested that and variations of that (e.g. at least pay for a cleaning person to clean our house, relieving her of the domestic chores other than the kids). At one point we had a specialized therapist come do 4 hour blocks with our autistic son every weekday during the day, but even then my wife did not feel comfortable leaving the house. She's had bad experiences with babysitters, teachers, etc. and forcing the issue only drives a wedge between us, so I bring it up gently and only periodically.

She is also reluctant to pay for any kind of outside service so that we can save up to get a bigger house.

If I suggested that our relationship is more important than our kids or house (the way the Dr suggested in one of the aforementioned UA articles), I believe her response would be "but our relationship is good the way it is, what are you talking about?"

"I am very unhappy because we don't spend any time on our marriage. ."

How do you expect your wife to be willing to make any changes when you are not being honest with her about the problem?

I've tried to be honest with my wife, without pushing too hard to the point that she interprets that I'm making demands. I've found this to be hard.

"I am unhappy because we don't spend any time on our marriage."

"What about our marriage are you unhappy about?" is often how this goes. I point out infrequency of sex, affection, admiration intimate conversation and simply not enough time together, or some subset of these, all of which are important to me (I'm using the words from the questionnaire here, but in past conversations it has been the best words I could find to express some variation of this)

Then we inevitably itemize each one, here is an example:
- sex "I don't know why I haven't been into it. I think you should just initiate more often, you'll be surprised, believe it or not I'd like to do it more too."

- affection "I'll try harder. I'm just not a touchy feely person by nature."

- admiration "But I do admire you!"

- time together "15 hours/week seems unrealistic, but our monthly date night is next week"


What I haven't said is something more direct like - "I believe you have fallen out of love with me, and here are the reasons I think that. If we spent more time together on our marriage, we'd both feel differently, which is critical for us, our kids, our life together, etc. This year I want to really win you back."

I'm scared something along those lines would put her on the defensive, so quite simply, I'm at a loss for words.

I would start by showing her your initial post on your first thread. When you show it to her, I would tell her that you think this Marriage Builders plan would turn your marriage around. I would ask her to read the articles on UA attention and the book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love. Don't tell her that she has fallen out of love, because she will just deny it. [Telling her how she feels is a love buster]

It is important to tell her how you feel, but to follow it up with a PLAN.

Tell her you are very unhappy with your marriage and this is what it will take to make you happy.

Print these up for her:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_care.html

[this one has some mistakes in it and I emailed Dr Harley about it] http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html

OK I will give it a go. I really appreciate your advice.

In theory even showing her my written thoughts should not be hard, and yet it feels very difficult. I can remember as early as 6 months into our dating relationship back in 1999, explaining concerns that I had in the relationship, her rationalizing to me that they weren't really big concerns, me pushing that they were in fact a big deal, and consequently her detaching from me further and beginning to look elsewhere for a partner.

Of course, back then we were kids, I probably expressed everything I was feeling all wrong, and we were not in a marriage the way we are today. In fact any time I have expressed my feelings so openly I feel like it generated a lot of hurt and drama, without improving the situation. I guess I've never presented it with a plan before, as you say, that is a big difference.

I am crossing my fingers that we have indeed matured over 15 years and this time around the conversation, with a plan, goes better.

I would just be real careful about making any accusations or telling her how she feels. For example, I can tell YOU that I can tell she has fallen out of love, but it would be a mistake for you to tell her that.

NOW, another thing I want you to think about is getting counseling with Dr Chalmers. Some folks here have had great success with her getting through to women. I am not suggesting endless sessions, but just enough to persuade your wife to get on board here. Your wife needs to be sold on the prospect that it is in her best interest to have a romantic, passionate marriage. THAT will motivate her to do the program.

If that can be achieved, then I have every reason to believe that you and your wife can go through this whole program on your own with the help of board members. You are very organized and methodical so I can see this working for you. Many of us had to go through the MB seminar to GET IT. I don't think you will. But, you can benefit from our experience.

A better way to express this is: I want us to have a marriage where we are BOTH happy. These are the steps that I believe will get us there...

Update: I have not brought myself to express this yet. Part of it is because I wonder if I am being fair in implying I'm that that unhappy, is it the way I really feel or was I just feeling particularly down in recent weeks and that had colored my perception.

The second reason is that I don't feel like I have thought through a plan yet. What I have is a request (almost a demand?) to spend 15 hours of UA time weekly out of the house, which she has already dismissed as impractical, and for which I can't say I have figured out the steps to making it happen with our young kids, autistic child, workload, and general poor performance of babysitters and other such services we've used to date.

The 3rd reason is that I have a tendency to jump to extremes too quickly, in her mind, and if I come on too strong with this idea I fear she may dismiss it as just my latest obsession. Last year due to pain from my autoimmune disease I went into an extremely restrictive diet that I read about, on an internet forum, supported by several licensed physicians on the internet, despite her warnings to not do it (IB, just one of a long list of LBs I realize I am guilty of). I lost a ton of weight, I looked awful, and it did not help. I did this off-and-on for almost 2 years, and she supported me quite a bit, we discussed meal plans, etc. despite not thinking it was a good idea. So now, I am reading another internet forum, MB, I have a radical idea, what are the chances she thinks "oh no, here we go again".

I do sales for a living so planning a convincing argument before making the 'pitch', thinking ahead of what the objections might be and how to address those objections, etc. is something I can't help but do.

I can see how being on a volunteer on this forum requires a lot of patience. Reading other threads, people clearly get 'stuck' in taking action, justifying it to themselves and getting defensive in all sorts of ways. I suspect I am probably coming off exactly like all the other visitors to this forum

In any case, I did ask my wife if we could play a rousing game of cards at home, a favorite when we were dating, just as an experiment. She agreed, although as you predicted, she was peeking at the random TV show and commercials in the background throughout our 2 hours playing together. We both thought it was fun though, especially as we got into it, and it made me realize to what extent we have not done something even as simple as this - spending time interacting with one another for fun - in so long. Other than a few date nights and getaway to new york together, this is probably the only sustained time we've spent together, mostly focused on each other, simply for fun, in at least a year.

She also reminded me that I had not completed my EN questionnaire and so we talked about my ranking and how the long stretches we've had with little intimate conversation, sex, affection, admiration, etc. have left me feeling lonely and sad, and her telling me that what's in the past isn't something we can change but we can make things better for our future.

In bed, she initiated sex and as far as I can tell she enjoyed it and encouraged me to initiate in the future. She also reminded me that back in 2010 she'd written me a letter about how she was disappointed in my lack of UA time, conversation, support, and disappointed that I hadn't tried to initiate sex in a year since our son was born. ie. gently pointing out, I think, that whatever I was thinking, I was only considering part of the story. She told me to "not be silly" and "not worry so much", which are things I've always found - when she says them - mean in some way she's acknowledging that my concerns are valid and is not sure what to say.

Last night she was determined to watch TV but with little prompting we ended up playing another game at home, another one of our favorites from when we were dating, and had another similar night ending in SF.

I have worked from home all week, shirking responsibility to some extent and spending as much time as I can trying to fill her 'love bank', checking in with conversation, affection, etc. without being annoying or overdoing it. This morning she pointed out how she prepared my lunch for work as she knew I was running late on my way to the office for the first time all week, and said 'this is how I show affection' and then hopped over to me, smiling, for a hug.

We have an all-day 'date' planned tomorrow, from 10am till the end of the night, various activities outside of the house, without kids.

Short term I am very happy with the last few days, perhaps I am in a bit of a daze and not thinking clearly. I'm very worried this will last a few more days, maybe weeks, then eventually die out and I'll be back where i started with my first post again.

I'm guessing the advice does not change, find a way to get that UA time in every week, outside of the house. I am still thinking how to make it happen.

Thanks again for your advice to date.

After a lot of thinking about this - I have not been able to tell my wife that I am 'very unhappy' with our marriage as I felt like such a strong statement would be disingenuous. I'm not very unhappy. I'm somewhat unhappy, sometimes. I also fear she is not truly happy, despite what she says, but I can't say that to her.

I showed her the MB material and very gently/indirectly mentioned the specific idea of 15 hr/week of UA time twice and she mostly dismissed it. After so many yrs I know her very very well, and pushing the idea harder I believe will simply make her angry, think I've just become paranoid, or possibly start questioning me as a suitable partner and father to our kids (esp. if I push the idea of a babysitter which is a definite no).

My wife has not really changed in our 15 years together, as far as I can remember she's never been terribly affectionate. If I bring up a concern around sex she will usually respond positively, then after a week or two things die down. If I bring up a concern around affection, she makes an effort to be more affectionate for a few days, then things go back to 'normal' (in 15 yrs I've never known her to be very affectionate). I get tired of being the one always initiating a hug or a kiss or an 'I love you'. Though we generally get along very well, have common values and a long history together, spend whatever small amounts of free time we have together, I still feel like our marriage is quite vulnerable long-term. ESPECIALLY after reading so many heart-breaking stories on this forum.

I understand a vital pre-requisite of MB is the 15+ hours of time, so perhaps there's nothing more this program can offer. Is your advice to continue to push the recommendation? To be more brutally honest about how I feel?

And if she reacts poorly as I suspect she will, then what? Divorce? Continue to live semi-happily and see how things play out?

You are very unhappy. You are also very afraid of her poor reaction to those words.

If giving affection doesn't come naturally to her then it is EVEN more important she give you her time. Being more interesting than the TV is important to you. Being a significant part of her calender is important to you - don't be afraid to say so.

Her reaction is up to her. Maybe it will be a poor one. But your feelings and persistently insisting on your right to feelings is more likely to get you get somewhere than fear and capitulation.

How can she respond well if you are too afraid to give her a problem she must respond to?

You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about your fears. How about focusing on polite, pleasant ways of telling your wife the truth? We didn't you to be "brutally" honest, but radically honest. Your wife cannot fix the problems if she does not have all of the facts. You are truly overthinking this.

Testguy, can you explain why you are so fearful? Do you have this much trouble taking steps in other areas of your life?

I definitely think a lot and consider options. That doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. I don't have trouble taking action in other areas of life at all, at work I've got a very 'think on your feet' type of job. But that's just work. I have a lot riding on my marriage and kids so it feels like that one deserves extra consideration.

I was the same. Proactive at work, paralysed with indecision at home. Avoiding conflict because I didn't have trust that I would be considered if I said I really needed something.

I got divorced. Didn't work for me.

I don't think you're anywhere near a divorce but how many years are you willing to have a non relationship.

You're in love with your wife and don't want to leave her. I get it. But you're not happy, you are unhappily in love.

While to her things are great. Why would she think otherwise?

Well that's what I thought I was doing. "I want to make our marriage better. I want to better address your ENs. We're not affectionate enough, that's really important to me. Most of all I think we need to spend more UA time, even if it's just a couple more hours than we do today, to start. Btw check out these articles, what do you think."

But that's just telling her that she or 'we' have a problem. Take ownership. Say *I*.

If you say 'we' she will quite rightfully correct you. She's comfortable. Probably gets a lot of needs met by the kids. Where did her sex drive go? Well she's sure it will turn up. She cares for you. To her this is not a bad situation at all.

So instead "I want to make our marriage better. I want to better address your ENs. I need affection/etc. in our marriage, otherwise I feel unhappy. I want to spend more UA time" ?

I believe I've gotten that message out. She even acknowledged the other day over dinner, out of the blue, "... and I know you have a need for affection and admiration".

Yes, much better.

Testguy,
I agree that your wife needs to accurately see how you honestly feel.
Is not telling her how you feel - conflict avoiding?

To think about conflict avoiding in marriage builder terms:
1. You are not being radically honest about how you are feeling.(RH)
2. You might be avoiding sharing the truth about how you feel, because you don't think she can handle the truth(DJ).

on the flip-side:
Has she reacted in a way that has made you avoid being honest and open (resorted to an AO or DJ - maybe calling your needs silly)?

If she is doing something that is making you conflict avoid, stick with "It bothers me, when you do this."

BTW do you realize that by being honest about how you are feeling, you would be meeting her number one need.

Have you read this? Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

The thing is that marriage presents a very different class of problems than the other types you are dealing with. In marriage, wisdom is attained only by the blending of both spouse's perspectives. You can not just go off by yourself and find solutions. You by yourself are only half of the whole. You need to work actively with your spouse to find mutually enthusiastic solutions.

I don't believe you have conveyed that message when you make posts like this:


This is a whole post devoted to splitting hairs about whether you are very unhappy or somewhat unhappy. This is the type of stuff that prevents honest discussion and keeps you distracted from solving the problem. Your wife needs to know you are unhappy and why you are unhappy.

Agree. This is not a one man show and your wife can't work with you on solutions if you don't tell her how you feel. Splitting hairs over whether you are "very" unhappy or "somewhat" unhappy solves nothing.

You all are quite perceptive (or simply very experienced, I suppose). My pattern is to try to solve things on my own and I need to be doing it with my partner. I actually have been called out for doing the same thing at work, trying to solve problems alone rather than collaboratively with the other stakeholders involved in a particular project.

In my discussion yesterday with DW about UA time, a couple of points have come up that I thought I would seek your experience on:

- She tells me that her idea of great UA time is snuggling on the couch watching TV together at night, which we do nightly. Her objection to turning off the TV and just talking with me instead is that she is a stay-at-home mom and her life is very boring. She feels like she has few interesting stories or things to say. I've shown her the articles on Critical Importance of UA, the article on how to make good conversation, etc.

- In general she says she's had a decrease in self-confidence and feels depressed, endlessly taking care of 2 young kids day-in-day-out, one of them a special needs child. She's been saying this for almost 6 years now since our kids were born, but also believes she's doing the right thing for the kids, and does not want to involve outside help like babysitters, neighbours, etc. I've seen some threads about how it's often a H's fault if his W is depressed, have I failed here? I am at a loss for what to do.

- I travel for work about 3-4 days at a time, once a month. She says that this is important b/c one of her top 5 ENs is financial support (for our kids, for a nicer home, vacation, etc.) and a job that doesn't involve travel, in my line of work, could mean a big salary cut. But definitely I notice more distance upon my return from travel each month. I've seen other threads recommending strongly against work that involve any sort of overnight travel away from the home. Should I look at changing jobs to be home all the time?

But, that is not "UA time;" that is something she enjoys doing, which is fine. When we talk about UA time, we mean when you are out together giving each other undivided attention, meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. These should be met on dates out of the house.

Turning off the TV and talking will not cut it either because she would rather be doing almost anything and will be anxious to get back to folding the towels or watching Sex in the City. This is why it is so critical to get out on dates and away from these distractions. When you watch TV together, it is later at night when you are tired and winding down. Nor are you nicely dressed up like you would be on a date. My H and I end our dates by 8:00 for this reason.

Here is what Harley said about getting out:



She is not doing the right thing for her kids if she is neglecting her marriage, which she IS. The MOST IMPORTANT THING to your children is their parent's marriage. That is the source of their security.

here


A good marriage will determine your quality of life, not a temporary higher income. You and your wife are thinking very short term and not long term because you won't be happy with a bad marriage living in a bigger home. But you will be happy with a great marriage living in a smaller home. People make more money and have greater achievements in life when they have a good marriage. It is the great marriage that fuels everything else.

Not even great marriages fare well with traveling jobs, so I assure you it only harms yours. A career should always COMPLEMENT a marriage, not harm it.

]
In other words, TV is the most exciting thing in her life. You need to make your MARRIAGE the most exciting thing in your lives. That is in the best interest of you, her and your children.

I saw Markos had posted his weekly schedule of UA time in an earlier post on this forum, which was a very useful way of seeing how activities like working out, driving, going for walks, etc. can fit into UA time. I've seen Dr Harley's inventory of activities for brainstorming as well.

Is there a thread on the forum where successful couples have posted what their 15+ hours look like per week, to get more real-world examples from which my DW and I could draw inspiration?

What did you do when you were dating? My husband and I enjoy going out to eat and shopping and going for rides.

Here is a recent schedule:

Tues 5-8 (3 hours) Olive Garden Dinner and drive
Thursday 5-8 (3 hours) shopping at Target, BBB, dinner at Cracker Barrel
Friday 5-8 (3 hours drive) BBQ dinner shopping at Bass Pro
Sat 2-6 (4 hours) house touring - late lunch
Sunday (4 hours) breakfast, house touring, matinee [don't count movie time]

Here UA Schedule

Being an engineer myself, it is easy to recognize a kindred mindset.

It is also easy to understand why finding good UA time activities is hard. When you have not been doing it, good quality UA time seems unnatural to people like us. You will know you have this problem solved when both you and your wife would much rather do nothing else but be alone together.

My experience in general when talking with people who appear to have lost their passion for what they are doing, is that if you express your feelings too strongly, especially in an effort to motivate them in a certain direction, you may stir emotions and inadvertently motivate them in a different direction altogether.

I remember when my wife and I were first dating many years ago and I brought up my feelings and concerns about our relationship, she initially called them 'silly' and went for quick fixes. I re-asserted them and it ultimately made her more distant, angry, and question our relationship altogether. Ultimately she began what I would suppose you would call an EA with someone else for a short time. Of course that was 15 years ago and we weren't married, only dating, and I probably expressed myself all wrong - but I still remember it.

At work I was given the responsibility of talking to a colleague who was once a top performer but in recent years had lost his passion for the job. Everyone hoped I could express on behalf of the company how we needed him to regain his passion for the job and we would jointly come up with ideas to make it happen. 2 weeks later he resigned, saying he was very grateful to me for (inadvertently) helping him realize he wanted to pursue a career change.

Those are just 2 of a number of examples I can think of. The advice you're giving is sound, and you're right, I am conflict avoiding and it's not a good practice for a successful M long-term. But this is my answer to your question which I left previously unanswered. Btw I don't think it's irrational to fear losing the things you value most, like your M.

You guessed it, I'm an engineer

I agree that it is rational to fear losing things you value. But what would you fear more losing more?

A marriage where your needs are not being met. And you continue to sacrifice.
or
A marriage where both of your needs are being met. And you can learn and want to accomodate each other.

Fear is good when it keeps you from standing on the very edge of a mossy cliff, but don't let it paralyze you from changing. Fear is an emotion. Dr. Harley has frequently said "your intellect must help your rise above your emotional responses."

TestGuy, I was/am very similar situation. When I first did my Emotional Need Questionaire, I wasn't completely honest, I didn't rank my top needs as high for fear of pushing her away. And now I have to appologize for not trusting her with the truth. And accurately expressing how they are being met.

Is it possible that she is going to react with a defense mechanism/lovebuster? Yes, but I am prepared say. "It bother when you say my needs are silly or use that tone of voice." Or "If you don't want to talk about this now can set a time to talk about it later."

I don't think its rational to lose a marrriage because you are "afraid" to be honest and forthright about the problems.

Side question - once a week my wife takes our young kids to swim class while I'm at work. In the last few weeks she's mentioned that there is a group of very extraverted, friendly parents that she talks to there while the kids are swimming. Most are moms, in particular one mom who I hear a lot about. There's also one dad who is "very athletic" and she mentioned among other things was talking to the other moms in the group about how he was having a hard time finding pants in town that fit over his large calfs.

My wife is usually extremely proactive sending me text messages throughout the day when I'm at work, and we try to talk through the day. Except for that one hour each week where she's socializing. Last week she renewed the swim class proactively till June, although typically one does not submit a request to renew until the end of the current session (March). When I inquire what they all talk about, she's pretty vague, but indicates it's nice to be part of a fun clique for an hour, in addition to watching our kids swim and making sure they are paying attention to the lesson.

It seems irrational, but I can't help but feel jealous of this hour! She has given up so much by staying at home with our children and has only a few good friends and very few opportunities to socialize. Meanwhile there are plenty of times when I am at work in meetings with colleagues and unable to text with her.

Ironically I probably would not have paid attention to this, much less felt jealous, until I started reading all the stories of people's relationships, affairs, and so forth, on this forum.

Any advice on how to communicate these feelings without being overbearing/insecure?

Fear is always irrational!

Whereas jealousy is just a good protective instinct.

I wouldn't agree to a social situation where members of the opposite sex have nothing to do but meet needs! The vagueness is particularly worrying.

Go with her.

I had a good conversation with her this weekend. I told her that I was unhappy and that I felt my ENs (which we'd discussed previously) for affection, admiration, SF, and UA time not in front of the TV weren't being met with nearly enough frequency.

Her initial reaction was "You shouldn't feel that way!" but then corrected herself and said she was sad that I felt that way, although she thought I was being silly. Since then, the last few days, she has been making a point to be more affectionate, which has been fine. But she maintains that the high point in her day is watching TV with me, and that this has always been one of the most enjoyable activities we've shared. She's open to doing other things as long as it doesn't involve leaving the house ("people with kids just can't do that" - note: I have shown her the UA time articles but she finds them unconvincing), and certainly 1-2 dates a month.

I suspect after a few days the displays of affection will taper off, as I've been there with her before, but I didn't share that fear of mine with her because it seemed like a DJ to predict her future behavior. In fact, throughout the conversation, I found it very difficult to not express things like "I don't think you are in love withe me the way I'm in love with you" but I did my best and stuck to mainly "I feel" and "I need" ownership statements.

She also says she's really appreciated having me home more, being more diligent about LBs, and engaged in conversation more. She feels "calmer, happier, and less alone than in past times".

So, my plan is to continue to nudge her in the direction of UA time, suggest dates whenever possible, spend more time at home engaging her in conversation throughout the day, watching out for LBs which we have identified together, and surprising her with sweet gestures from time to time.

Questions for anyone reading:

- I acknowledge this is not following the MB program because at best we'll be having a couple hours of real UA time per week. So I guess these other efforts of mine will be futile? Basically, if we can't fit 15 hrs in, then no sense making any changes at all?

- On suggestion from Melody I told her everything that was in my first MB post, including that I had been watching porn regularly. She says knowing this makes her feel sad like she wasn't being a great partner, but that it's in the past and we'll try harder from now on (SF has been weekly since we first started discussions 6 weeks ago). I did not share that I had recently been a bit flirty with co-workers, I suspect that would be a big LB for her and drive her away from me. That's bad right, ie. not being radically honest?

- My mind sometimes goes back to her ex from almost 20 years ago who in many ways I feel like I don't live up to (I knew her back when they dated and it just doesn't feel like she was ever quite as excited to be with me as with him). I also sometimes think that she had 1 or 2 EAs back when we were dating many years ago, or at the very least she was infatuated with co-workers for short periods of time. We never talked about it. It was while we were dating and I thought to myself that this was normal while dating for her to consider options. I was just happy that she chose me. She has no contact with any of these people and it's been 15-20 yrs, ancient history. But is it worth resurfacing the topic in the name of radical honesty, particularly as I find myself thinking about it?

TestGuy,

I would keep watching TV with her and try to make the time wonderful for her and try to fill it with lots of conversation. And I would also continue to keep gently suggesting other things to do that she might enjoy.

It was normal. She did nothing wrong by considering other options. They were not emotional affairs.

No.

Yes, you are right that not being radically honest is a big Love Buster, so you had better tell her right away. Tell her who you have been flirting with and give her the information she needs to identify these people.

Why haven't you mentioned this flirting before?

I'm concerned she's having sex with you while out of love as a quick fix. Does she seem genuinely enthusiastic or is this 'trying hard' for your sake? The comment about feeling like a bad partner is telling.

It's a good way to sell her on UA time too. No sex, or porn until you are dating and bonded. Unenthusiastic sex isn't going to meet your need anyway.

By doing nothing she'll have to confront this issue without sexual sacrifice.

I did mention it in my original post, sorry for the confusion, it was in a different thread.

"[almost total lack of SF for 15 years] makes me feel lonely and unattractive. I have found myself lately getting on dating websites where people 'rate' your photos for attractiveness, or flirting with colleagues on occasion, just seeking validation that I am desirable. I also can't help but wonder, although I think it's very unlikely, if my wife would consider infidelity later in life. "

Actually flirting is probably not the right word, it was simply being more friendly with female co-workers than I ordinarily would be, talking about things that didn't relate to work like their weekends, smiling, etc. Normally I am very work oriented in all my dealings at the office so for me this was a stretch. I recognize this is still looking to meet conversation and admiration ENs outside of marriage so totally not appropriate.

Though she is not the one to initiate I would say she has been very enthusiastic about half the time, the other half she's been a little more neutral/tired. She wants 2-3 hours of TV time to zone out once the kids are in bed so SF ends up being at late hours, like midnight, so no wonder. Predictably the more enthusiastic times were at the end of actual date nights or nights where we spent time talking rather than watch TV.

But she's not one to hide her feelings. Per my original thread I lived through 10-15 years of "No way!" replies to my initiating sex without any interest in 'trying hard' for my sake. Honesty is her top EN and has always been one of her most clearly defining characteristics. I don't think she would fake enthusiasm or agree to sex unless she had at least some genuine interest.


Understood, but I don't think withholding sex would be a motivator for her to spend more UA time or go on dates. In fact the longer the stretch of time between SF, the less interested she seems.

So, are you going to tell her?

Based on the resounding feedback from you all, yes I think I will. I do anticipate it will drive us further apart so I may be returning here for further advice.

Thank you for your help and talking things through with me.

Prisca, could you give me some insight into your thinking here? I'm not challenging your advice by any means, but would like to understand what brings you to this conclusion. If her top EN is honesty and this is a recurring thought I am having that is bothering me, is it not something i should tell her?

Thank you Markos, this is what I'm trying to do at this point.

- In addition to spending all my time with her, at the TV or otherwise, continuously gently suggesting that we take on other more dedicated forms of UA time, Is it worth continuing to bring up "I am somewhat/fairly unhappy in this marriage. I would like my ENs for admiration, affection, SF to be met and I would feel so much happier." ? At what frequency to bring this up, daily?

- the original reason for my posting was a consistent lack of SF. After talking things have gotten a little better (once a week, or every 2 weeks, I always initiate but she seems enthusiastic at least half the time). But what do I do all the other times that I am in the mood and I sense that she is not? This is kind of gross to talk about so forgive the explicit nature of my question - I've done away with porn, but what about masturbating while thinking of her, is that an acceptable form of SF that would minimize the damage to our marriage?

And to what extent should I be honest with her about what to do about SF when she's not in the mood question? discussing with her how else to have SF seems like it would be a difficult conversation no matter how I articulate it, probably offensive and/or perceived as laying on guilt.

Have you told her about your flirting yet?

Not yet.

When are you going to?

It's very important you do.

You asked about being honest about a non issue - something in the past which is dead and buried - but this is a pressing and relevant issue.

In fact the seeking of ENs outside marriage is what's probably prompted you to look into her past for justification.

Just be honest. You are unhappy and need her attention on this problem!

You can't solve this one on your own.

Don't expect much success, then.

I will, I have not yet.

Success with what? The relationship overall?

When will you be telling her?

There's wisdom in what you say, you may be right. But I have had those feelings since day 1, they're not recent.

My wife is periodically referring back to the years before we started dating (ie. her high school and early university years) as being 'the best time of her life'. Not because of the guys she was dating back then, but just because for her those were her most exciting and carefree times. Her mind goes back there, so does mine, seemingly for different reasons though.

I'm hoping to tell her on the weekend when we have some time alone together.

I've recently told her about my long-term porn use, esp. over the last few years, and getting on a dating site last year just to see how my photo was 'rated' as a way of validating that I was still attractive. She did not react much to that news. But I suspect flirting, however innocent (I don't even think the women in question would have even thought of how I was behaving as flirting in any typical sense of the term)... anyway I honestly don't know how she'll react.

You see, I see no point in digging up her past before you were married in the name of radical honesty, when you will not even be honest with her about what you are doing while married.

Your flirting is a whole lot more serious to your marriage than her pre-marriage relationships.

OK thank you for clarifying. I thought perhaps it was just general advice that after so many years a person's flirting/EA/relationships are not worth revisiting, or that a woman/man's pre-marriage relationships are not their husband/wife's business.

So in my case, should I share instances of flirting pre-marriage? And during our time living common law? (yes, we were 'renters'

Should I describe instances in detail, ie. "Once I went to lunch with a client. Over lunch I smiled at her frequently in hopes she would smile back, as if in some way that would validate that I was still attractive. I cracked a few jokes and she laughed - that felt nice. Otherwise I have not seen this person for year and our company does not do business with her. Her name was XYZ. I did not have any serious intent with this person and nothing materialized, but I realize that it was very wrong, disrespectful, and dangerous to our marriage."

Or keep things very high level, ie. I exhibited 'flirty' behavior in a half-dozen instances over the last X years.

How far do I go back?

I imagine I should not include any explanations or justifications for my behavior, only objective descriptions of the behavior itself?

You will say I am overthinking things but for me these questions are important. I intend to present things in a way that is honest, explicit and detailed.

When I first mentioned 'flirting' in my first post and indiegirl replied 'It's good that you didn't accept sex from your co-workers", I thought to myself "Whoa! What does she think flirting means, exactly??"

I admit my boundaries were very poor in about 7 instances I can think of, including 3 in the last year and a half. I have itemized them in a file on my computer with details about the person, time and what occurred. I will let my wife judge the severity of those infractions. I don't want her to think I was out looking to have an emotional or physical affair, because I wasn't. But I also don't want to downplay them in any way, as I recognize that allowing yourself to have poor boundaries is wrong, could be the first steps towards an A, and could be considered by spouses as an A (I saw varying opinions on a thread on this forum about what actually constitutes an A)

1. Indiegirl brought up sex with co-workers because that is where you are heading unless you turn things around. Basically, you are(were?) trolling for women, whatever else you say (dating sites and flirting at work). That eventually leads to sex with someone other than your wife. I'm glad you were shocked. Your behavior is deplorable. Do you and your wife share passwords? You need to create boundaries between you and anyone who could distract you from your marriage. (So does your wife.)

2. Since you seem to have trouble getting her on-board with UA time, Perhaps you should say "One of the reasons I want to work on creating a romantic marriage with you is because I caught myself trying to flirt with a woman recently. It was wrong and disrespectful of you. I want to make our marriage so irresistible that this never happens again." Followed by the details. Maybe the veteran posters have better suggestions?

3. Since she is so tired at night, have you considered getting a sitter to come in 2 hours before you get off work. This would give your wife time to get a nap or relax. Then she could be re-charged by the time you get home so y'all can do fun stuff in the evenings.

If you think that stuff that happened before marriage equals stuff that happened during marriage, then you are basically saying that marriage doesn't matter. That's the Renter's mindset.

I suggest you send your wife to this forum and show her your thread. Encourage her to start a thread of her own.

Test,

This thread demonstrates that you hide things from her - your true feelings, your flirtations - because you don't want to deal with conflict about it.

Let's be real, this isnt, and never was, about sparing her feelings. It was sparing you from consequences of truth.

And over thinking is really q great way to avoid action. Keep talking, never doing.

You can change this around, but knock off the noble act. This is a character flaw, not a kind gesture to her.

Here's a good show about the effects of porn.
Radio Clip of the Effects of Porn
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

No. This is the equivalent of blaming her for his behavior with other women. Many people have poor marriages and DO NOT flirt with other people outside of their marriage.

It is also making a connection between her spending UA time and him flirting in a very negative threatening way, IMO. If you do not spend more UA time with me, I will be encouraged to flirt with other women. That is going to do the OPPOSITE of encouraging her to spend more UA time with him.

So in relation to my questions, here is what I have interpreted from everyone's feedback


Sounds like only share the 3 instances of 'flirting' post-marriage. Btw I'm not saying there's no distinction pre-and-post marriage, just wondering why all behavior prior to marriage would be considered irrelevant?


There was no feedback on this point specifically, that I saw, so that is still how I intend to proceed.

From marriage. Everything else would be optional but largely irrelevant.


Sounds like yes, if I look at the exchange between apples123 and unwritten. It's important to not explain, justify actions or tie them to my own issues around ENs and so forth - only present the actions as facts.


Thank you, I appreciate your feedback. Your judgments are also insightful (ie. noble act, being afraid, not being 100% forthright, etc.).

Thanks, I have listened to those when I found them posted from another thread when I decided to stop some months ago. I think the link between porn and PE is a myth though, it's been largely rejected by the medical community.

Just to clarify - there are dating sites hotornot.com and tinder.com that offer a service where you can post your photo and people of the opposite sex will give you a rating out of 10 for attractiveness. Once some statistically significant number of individuals have rated you, the site presents you with your average score. You don't get to see how individual people rated you, only the statistical average. I don't see how this is trolling for women unless you use the dating features of the website.

Before I found MB and understood my spouse's top ENs, I suspected perhaps she no longer found me attractive. I was trying to get an objective read on my attractiveness. I didn't think asking individuals I knew whether they thought I was attractive or not would be a good idea because 1) there's no statistical significance, it's just 1 person's opinion, 2) not sure they would tell me the truth 3) it's socially awkward 4) ideally you want a woman's opinion but such a question clearly violates boundaries.

I also tried anaface.com, where a computer rates you for attractiveness based on measurements of facial symmetry and relative proportions of your facial features, but there are well documented flaws in the algorithm it uses.

If you wanted to get an objective, statistically significant read on your own attractiveness, how else would you go about it?

I regret this whole thing and told my wife about it, but in that instance I wasn't 'trolling women'.

Goodness gracious, do you even read what you post? Of course you were trolling for women!! Tinder is a dating app! You were looking for attention on a dating app! Stop justifying your poor behavior because you allowed yourself to seek attention away from your wife!

Thank you. This is why I always defer to people with more experience.

Married person on a dating site = looking for an affair.

And Tinder is a hook up site. Sex is the primary purpose.

I question the whole idea of wanting to do that. It's an indicator that you are open to receiving admiration from outside of your marriage that you should only be getting from inside your marriage.

Admiration is a strong emotional need for you. Your wife will meet that for you after you have become so skilled at meeting her emotional needs that you are above the romantic love threshold in her love bank all the time. In the meantime, don't go looking to get it met anywhere else.

I am seeing a thread where all of your posts are about your concern for you and there is little concern for your wife shown. I feel pretty confident that she is not getting what she needs in your marriage and that she needs some help in order to get that. I would like to see you ask her to post here and show her your thread ASAP.

I totally agree.

Will your wife come here?

I feel like just about everything I've said in the back-half of this thread - including clarifying the information I've provided you and seeking clarifications on your advice - has been received really poorly. I have other questions and thoughts as you seem like a very experienced group but honestly not sure what to say...

You could start by showing your wife your thread and asking her to post here with you.

We are speaking strongly to you because you don't seem to realize that you are flirting with disaster. This is not to be unkind. But the truth can cut to the bone.

Have you discussed this with your wife yet?

Just wanted to chime in and say regardless of your intentions in posting on these sites, the real issue is that this behavior is almost certainly extremely hurtful to your wife. I can't really imagine a scenario where a spouse of either sex wouldn't be extremely hurt and troubled by this. So that consideration should outrank any others in thinking about this topic.

You asked how someone would establish their attractiveness outside of these sites and I would counter that by asking what your goal is in having someone other than your wife affirm that you are indeed attractive? Whether you mean to or not, your thought processes here are preparing you to have an affair. You have to stop thinking like this or you will end up being unfaithful to your wife.

Have you read the basic concepts? Do you understand the Love Bank? You were giving other women the opportunity to make Love Bank deposits. If one were to make enough deposits, you would find yourself in love with another woman.

Yesterday's show had a couple who recovered from an affair. The wife was VERY clear -- she NEVER set out to start an affair. Almost no one does. But if you fail to protect your Love Bank, one could happen.