Hello all, I have a quick question for you: if your spouse's annoying habit is a diagnosed disorder that cannot be eliminated by simply changing one's mindset, what is the best solution?

Background:
- DH was diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder about 15 years ago
- DH has seen several psychiatrists who prescribed various meds, ultimately behavioral therapy worked best for him. Still sees psychologist.
- We've been together for 16 years, married for 8 years; have 2 young children aged 3.5 and 1.5
- Both reading Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs--DH is on board with MP principles. Our marriage is not in a bad place, but with 2 young children we both agree that our marriage has taken a back seat and we want to make it better. We both think that our marriage is "good", but we want to be great.

DH's OCD has gotten worse since having kids (worrying about kids = anxiety = more OCD behaviors). He still employs the behavioral therapy techniques from the past, but he's not always successful in keeping his anxiety at bay. My frustration with the OCD has gotten worse since having kids because it results in making my life more difficult. I change all diapers, bathe and dress the kids, etc. because his anxiety over hurting them makes it very difficult for him to do those things. And if one of them gets hurt doing normal kid things, I'm having to calm the whole darn family.

I'd like to think this is not a dealbreaker for me because my husband is a truly wonderful husband and father, but I'm just not sure what to do about it. What's worse is that I tend to DJ him when he does it, so it's a wonderful cycle that won't stop.

OCD cannot really be described as an annoying habit because it is not something that we can change. It is not like leaving your socks on the floor.

Actually low levels of OCD are very helpful because they are what drives people to make good work excellent. All geniuses have some measure of OCD. Better to regard this as part of the package that is your wonderful husband.

But you are right to spot the connection between anxiety and OCD. OCD is actually a coping mechanism, the underlying condition is anxiety. You can help. H needs to talk about what is making him anxious and you need to listen. DJs will send his anxiety to the moon.

Young children is the time of most stress for relationships. Start caring for one another. You are so right to be doing MB. A romantic marriage will alleviate his anxiety better than anything else can.

Wife_Loving, this is an interesting question to those of us who study MB - and I don't know the answer.

I think the answer is to try harder until the problem is eliminated, using the behavioural techniques (and medication to, if necessary). I think you must also ensure that the marriage does not take a back seat to the kids, so UA time must be rigorously adhered to. I should think that UA time would have the benefit of relaxing your H and reducing his anxieties.

But really, I think you should put this question directly to Dr Harley. I think he would love to answer it, and ideally, to talk to your husband (and you). Please email him at the radio show.

OCD behaviours are very much something we can change, but it is very hard to practice the techniques devotedly until the behaviours are eliminated. The behavioural techniques that the poster mentioned are standard forms of intervention. I'm not a doctor, but I've seen enough medical documentaries to know that much!

This. If his techniques/ self-calming techniques aren't working then he needs medication. Your goal is that he is calm and relaxed when he is with you. That is why UA time (away from stressors like kids) is so important. Work on creating an enjoyable life. Find ways to simplify and outsource as much as is financially possible.

Just some thoughts...
Don't calm him. Be calm and caring, but you might need to remove yourself when he is emotionally outbursting. He needs to be responsible for calming himself. It will be difficult for him because of the repetitive thoughts, but he needs to focus on his actions instead of his thoughts.

Of course, hearing Dr. Harley's perspective via the radio show is the best idea.

I am sure I've heard Dr H say that anxiety in a husband is very hard on a wife and strategic techniques are needed to handle that dynamic. I'd definitely email him.

Thank you all, this is very helpful. I will definitely email Dr. H about it. It is actually a relief that this is a bit of conundrum to you veterans because it's the honestly been the only part of the MB program that I've had a hard time addressing.

A couple of notes after reading the replies:

1. I agree that it's not an annoying habit because it's not a true habit--it's a disorder. But it also feels like a LB and AH was the closest classification. It's just tricky for me since changing this behavior is much more difficult than changing a bad habit and I truly want to help. Hopefully Dr. H can help me.

2. I oscillate between trying to be calm, caring and listening when he's struggling with anxiety (more like SugarCane's/LivingWell's suggestions) to being completely detached when he's having an episode of anxiety so that he is forced to calm himself (more like DidntQuit's suggestion). I'm not the coddling type by nature, so it feels healthier for me to detach, but DH feels much more supported when I listen and am supportive. My fear is that talking about his "bad thoughts" is part of his compulsion, so I've worried that being supportive is not supportive of my DH, but supportive of his OCD. This is why I need Dr. H's help--I need to figure out what is best for my DH and do that regardless of how I feel about it. I definitely need to stop DJing when he tics, that is wrong.

3. Livingwell, you are right that this is "part of the package" with my DH. He is a brilliant mathematician and I respect and admire him a great deal. I need to take the bad with the good, just do my part to make sure I can help eliminate the "bad" parts as much as possible.

4. UA time is very important to both of us and I admit that it is difficult with a young family, but we've taken steps to ensure we have 15 hours a week alone together. We spend evenings together after tucking our girls into bed (+ they both still nap, which is additional time together on the weekends). We've also outsourced the lawn care/landscaping and hired a house cleaner so we're doing fewer chores on weekends which results in more family time or more alone time. Plus we now have a regular date night which we both love.

5. Indiegirl, anxiety in a husband is honestly very hard on a wife. It forces the wife to be the "rock" in the relationship.

Thanks again for all of the help! I'll update this thread once I've heard from Dr. H.

Wife_Loving_Life,

I strongly suspect that I could be diagnosed as obsessive compulsive.

What I have had to do is to very strictly follow Dr. Harley's rules for marriage. No matter how I FEEL about something, no matter how anxious, I MUST NOT become demanding, disrespectful, or angry with my wife about it.

That was a hard set of habits to break, but it is very doable. I had to follow Dr. Harley's treatment suggestions for anger management, which helped immensely.

I would see if you can get your husband to obsess about following the rules of this program. It worked for me!

Yes, Dr. Harley has commented that a man like this typically drives a woman nuts. He has referenced the fictional television show Monk and said that if you see how Monk usually drives women nuts, that's very realistic.

Everybody I know says I'm a lot like Monk, I'm afraid!

My feeling is that if such a man learns to not make demands of his wife, to not impose his anxiety on her, it can go a long way towards helping her to feel better. Just ask my wife.

HEY! Marriage Builders doesn't tell people how to feel!

Wife_Loving_Life, have you presented the Marriage Builders program to your husband? Shown him the Basic Concepts?

Does your husband ever become demanding, disrespectful, or angry?

Man, he needs to get that taken care of! I hated changing dirty diapers and such, too. The first time one of our children had a disastrous leaked diaper all over toys I thought I was going to die. But it turns out my hands can be washed afterward, toys can be cleaned up, I can bathe if necessary, and life goes on.

Repeated exposure is the only way to get over this, so I hope he dives in and starts doing it.


I would tell him you need him to not impose his anxiety on you. If he's having an outburst, he needs to go off by himself until he feels better. I would treat this as an angry outburst. You should not be subjected to it.

If he won't agree to that, I would tell him you can't accept that and separate from him until he decides to get help or do it on his own.

If your husband would follow the procedure Dr. Harley describes in this article, it would probably help a great deal:

How to negotiate when you are an emotional person

In particular, I'd say your husband absolutely needs to acquire a GSR meter or other biofeedback device and work with it.

Exactly.

A highly anxious husband is very hard on a wife. She shouldn't be told to just accept it.

If a man with OCD is dedicated to following the MB rules, you can be quite happy in a marriage with him. He's got to be obsessed with following the rules, though, and dedicated to not forcing you to pay the cost for his OCD.

I don't think stuff like that should be cited here unless you've actually heard Dr. Harley say it. Dr. Harley frequently disagrees with the mainstream and frequently doesn't agree with psychological diagnoses of conditions that supposedly can't be changed.


Very true!


I think the big problem here is that the burden of paying the costs for his anxiety should not be imposed on her. For example, he feels anxious changing dirty diapers, but that should not be made into her problem. She shouldn't have to be the helper that helps him cope with it.


There needs to be far more than just talking about it!

This is what I do. Markos really protects me from his anxiety/OCD right now, but occasionally it slips through. And when it does, I report it as a lovebuster -- it shakes me up, and I cannot live with it.

Please let us know when you hear back from Dr. Harley.

Yes, my husband is familiar with the MB principles as we have recently spent much of our UA time completing the worksheets that accompany His Needs, Her Needs and LoveBusters.

My husband has rarely been demanding, but definitely DJ's and has AOs. He rarely does either if we are not engaged in a fight and I do tend to do both of those things first, but we are both responsible for our own actions.

Also, to be fair, my husband does OFFER to change diapers/change clothes, etc., but I tell him I will do it because it's easier for both of us. If he does it, he is anxious and doing rituals the entire time, then often we have to talk about his fear that he hurt one of the children while doing the task. Then I get frustrated that a 30 second exercise has turned into a dramatic event. I am familiar with exposure therapy, but I honestly fear that if he's battling his anxiety while doing something with/for our kids, then our kids will start thinking THEY are the reason he is anxious because they are too young to truly understand a mental disorder. I suspect that part of a reason having an anxious husband is hard on a wife is because we see the behavior as "unhealthy" and want to protect our children from it.

I feel my husband does best when he is home alone with the girls so that he is forced to care for the girls without "backup". There was a death in my family recently where I needed to be away for a weekend and my husband did very well an enjoyed his time with the girls without discussing his anxieties when we chatted on the phone. Then a few weeks later I had a girls' night and he had a hard time getting our youngest's shirt off and called me panicked for fear he'd hurt her. In fact, I didn't pick up my phone so he called the restaurant so he could talk with me. So I never know when he will suffer a "bad" episode.

The anxiety being imposed on my is indirect, not direct. My husband tries to hide the tics/rituals from me because he is ashamed. He has stopped "talking through" his anxiety with me (per his psychologist's recommendation) unless it is a really bad (like the time he called the restaurant).

ETA: even when he called me during this episode, it wasn't because he needed me to calm him down, it's because he had a panic attach which scared our children and they were both crying. He was hoping I could calm THEM down, which made me incredibly angry (with him, for scaring our children) and incredibly sad (that our kids were scared) at the same time.

Thanks for the link to the article, markos--I read that a few days ago and printed it so we could read it together.

I have emailed Joyce/Dr. H and will report back what he instructs.

You shouldn't be protecting him from exposure therapy. Exposure is the only way he is ever going to be able to work through it.

I understand this thought, which is why I have left him alone with the girls from time to time. But it wasn't under the guise of exposure therapy. My fear with exposure therapy is:

1. I'm not sure if I'm qualified to participate in exposure therapy as my understanding is that this needs to be led by a licensed therapist. Currently, my husband's therapist is not advocating exposure therapy for my husband.

2. I am still wary of exposure therapy with our kids because I fear his anxiety--as a direct result of interacting with them--could have a negative psychological impact on them. Granted, it still happens (I do leave them with him), but it weighs on me.

If I were you, I'd look around for another therapist. I'd start with Dr. Harley, and get your husband to talk to him. Then find a therapist who will help him through exposure therapy.

This is your own anxiety talking to you, and it is understandable. I empathize. But, the best time for your husband to go through exposure therapy is when your daughters are so young they will not remember when Daddy was so anxious around them.

1. I will definitely talk with Dr. H about this--right now my husband's therapists works on relaxation/breathing techniques, but without any additional exposure.

2. Good point--my fear about my kids feeling guilty about DH's anxiety is definitely MY anxiety. The faster my DH can tackle this, the better it will be for the entire family.

Is there a plan for exposure in the future after the relaxation techniques are mastered? I'd be very concern if there wasn't.

WLL, you said:

"2. I oscillate between trying to be calm,caring and listening when he's struggling with anxiety (more like SugarCane's/LivingWell's suggestions) to being completely detached when he's having an episode of anxiety so that he is forced to calm himself (more like DidntQuit's suggestion). I'm not the coddling type by nature,so it feels healthier for me to detach,but DH feels much more supported when I listen and am supportive. My fear is that talking about his "bad thoughts" is part of his compulsion,so I've worried that being supportive is not supportive of my DH,but supportive of his OCD. This is why I need Dr. H's help--I need to figure out what is best for my DH and do that regardless of how I feel about it. I definitely need to stop DJing when he tics, that is wrong."

This IS the challenge. My husband deals with anxiety and OCD as well. It is probably good that you are "detachable". I have had counsel from Dr. Harley about this.

Most disorders can be broken down into instincts, behaviors and habits. So MB concepts DO work. But it takes more effort and understanding on both of your parts.

Remember that need meeting should be done in a way that you are enthusiastic about.

Also, it would be good for your husband to leave when he is anxiety-outbursting. That will become "learned behavior to your children over time. They may be pre-disposed, and seeing you both handle this productively with Dr. Harley's help will give them great tools for their future.

I very much agree with this.

I will ask my husband about this.

I agree with this, too. I really want for our children to see us handling this in a healthy way. I don't want my husband to feel shame, I want for him to feel empowered to control his OCD.

I also agree with the rest of your post, DidntQuit--we both need to enthusiastically agree. Did this come easy for you and your husband?

NO.

Wish we had known about MB long before bad instintual behaviors got out of control.

I really think you need to be kept in the loop on what his therapist is planning for him.

Agreed--this is my fault because I've been lax about getting involved in his treatment. It would probably be helpful for me to join him in some of his sessions. Ideally, I would love to work with Dr. H since I would like to work through this using MB principles.

You're on the right path contacting Dr. Harley.

Wanted to update this thread because I heard back from Dr. H this morning. This is an excerpt of his reply:

"In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable.

To summarize, it�s up to your husband to handle the problem, and he should tell you daily how grateful he is to you for your patience."

The last paragraph made me chuckle a little because I'm constantly wishing I had MORE patience when frustrated with husband's OCD.

He also noted that wives have a much more difficult time when their husbands have OCD--the husbands often don't understand why their wives are irritated.

Talked with husband about his treatment this weekend and we both agreed that he should likely find another therapist as his therapist can't prescribe medication and seems too busy to see husband as often as he should.

Because I feel that H should be taking care of this on his own, I'm hoping he follows through and does this, but with everything going on right now I can EASILY see this taking a back seat until I remind (read: nag) him. But I'll give him some time to take action before bringing it up again.

Bring it upon a regular basis until it is resolved. Keep it on the front burner.

Would you consider posting his whole reply? Is there something confidential that you do not want to share here?

I wouldn't give him too much time. As my wife suggested (in Dr. Harley's own words): keep it on the front burner. Bringing it up frequently (daily or so) is a good way to send the message that you are serious about needing him to overcome this.

I would give it 3 days then ask again how his search for a new therapist is going. If you give more than 3 days, it seems like it is not that important to you. (3 d says is also the length of time I use for business situations.)

Less than 3 days is fine too.

No problem posting his entire reply--here it is in full:

Hi [my name],

OCD is definitely one of the emotional disorders of husbands that wives find difficult, if not impossible, to tolerate. But when wives have the disorder, husbands seem to adjust much better to it. So men with OCD usually don�t understand why their wives are having so much trouble with them.

Most husbands who are doing a good job overcoming the symptoms use a combination of medication, such as Prozac, and behavior therapy. Minor tranquilizers, such as Xanax, are to be taken when the husband is having a panic attack, or is overwhelmed by some unforeseen event. Since most men with OCD don�t like taking any medication, it�s usually a trick to get them to take it long enough to find a successful dosage level for their physiology.

In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable.

To summarize, it�s up to your husband to handle the problem, and he should tell you daily how grateful he is to you for your patience.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
--------------------------------------

Thanks for the advice regarding his therapy and keeping it on the front-burner. That makes sense, I can certainly bring it up every other day until it's done. The last psychiatrist my husband saw was not great (this was last year--he was seeing both this psychiatrist as well as the psychologist he's currently seeing), so I'm afraid the last bad experience will leave him less motivated.

I haven't replied to Dr. H, but was thinking of asking him for an resources for finding a psychiatrist that specializes in OCD. Wondering if this is too much "help" for my husband...should he be doing this on his own?

Hi lovely marriage builders,

I'm stuck. It's now over a year later and OCD is still an issue in our marriage.

I kept it on the front-burner and there were times when DH seemed better (working on it on his own). But I'm afraid I went about it in the wrong way...making him feel worse about it instead of being supportive. Basically DJing

I haven't kept my side of the street clean--definitely some AOs and DJs in moments of frustration. DH told me last week that he's on the verge of wanting a divorce because he feels I'm obnoxious and nothing will change. I brought up his OCD and he told me that he does not mind his OCD and he's already gone to see multiple therapists because I've asked him to, so in his mind he's done with therapy.

I feel stuck. On one hand, if he refuses to address this, I don't see how we can ever have a healthy marriage and I'm ready to throw in the towel. On the other hand, if I were a better wife, he would likely be more willing to change. Right now he sees no advantage because I'm still making mistakes.

Do I cut my losses and separate? Do I do a better job of cleaning up my side of the street in effort to give it my all? I feel like I've been talking about MB off and on for the past couple of years, but I clearly haven't sold him on it since I can't seem to do a good job of fixing myself, so I doubt he's itching to sign up for the online course. I'm at a loss since I don't want to fail at this, but I can't seem to do it on my own.

EDIT: I should add that DH stopped seeing his therapist last fall. I believe it started as a scheduling conflict, but ultimately my husband wasn't seeing any benefit--pretty typical for him.

Reading the letter Dr. Harley wrote you:
"In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable.

To summarize, it�s up to your husband to handle the problem, and he should tell you daily how grateful he is to you for your patience."

I believe Dr. Harley would tell you that there isn't much you can do if he refuses to address this issue. It's not up to you to cure him. You could be the perfect wife and he would still have this issue he needs to address -- your lovebusters are not causing his OCD. You shouldn't lovebust him, but that's not the reason he's quit his therapy.

If he's going to refuse therapy, you may need to consider calling it quits. I would copy and paste your post and email it to Dr. Harley if I were you.

Um. Hi there. First I have never been part of a forum so please forgive my ignorance e. I have no idea where I need to go or how I need to get there but I saw you have been part of this forum for quite some time. I am in a desperate place. I won't give you a long drawn out story but I am willing to do anything to Save my marriage and am the only one really trying and I need as much help and advice as I can get. Can you point me in a direction to ask questions etc on this forum. I am already reading lots and studying lots but I do need a regular source of advice/support.

Welcome to MB.

It would be best for you to start your own thread and give us a short description (in about 3 paragraphs or less) and ask us your questions.

Have you read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts?

Thanks, Prisca. I agree--I'm not the reason for his OCD, but I don't think that my frustration about it is healthy, either.

We talked last night when we were both less frustrated and we agreed that if we could fix this on our own, we would have already. He's open to doing the online course, and I'm hoping that can be a segway to him getting help for his OCD. I'm also reaching out to an individual therapist for myself.

It would be so nice to be able to have these calm, thoughtful discussions about our issues without going through the frustration and anger first. I feel like we CAN do it, we just need to be held accountable when we go down the wrong path.

I saw you posting today, so I thought I'd ask how things are going with your husband's OCD.

He still has it. Blah.

That was partly a joke. There is good news and bad news.

Bad news is that he's still not in therapy for it.

Good news is that I've cleaned up my side of the street and by doing that, he's a lot more receptive to working on it. I can tell he's making more of an effort to control it. But is digging in his heels about a therapist.

His OCD is the type of thing that ebbs and flows. Right now it is ebbing, so I hate to create tension over it. The stress makes his OCD worse, anyway, so it's a catch 22 for me.

Did you mail Dr Harley on the OCD? I remember from previous radio shows, he has good advice on this problem.

Yes, he did have good advice. This was his response to my email:

Hi [my name],

OCD is definitely one of the emotional disorders of husbands that wives find difficult, if not impossible, to tolerate. But when wives have the disorder, husbands seem to adjust much better to it. So men with OCD usually don�t understand why their wives are having so much trouble with them.

Most husbands who are doing a good job overcoming the symptoms use a combination of medication, such as Prozac, and behavior therapy. Minor tranquilizers, such as Xanax, are to be taken when the husband is having a panic attack, or is overwhelmed by some unforeseen event. Since most men with OCD don�t like taking any medication, it�s usually a trick to get them to take it long enough to find a successful dosage level for their physiology.

In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable.

To summarize, it�s up to your husband to handle the problem, and he should tell you daily how grateful he is to you for your patience.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

So basically it's on my husband to fix it. But he feels after years of therapy (and multiple medications), he's tired. He doesn't mind his OCD, but understands it's an issue for me. I've been b*tchy about it in the past, so I'm stopping my DJs and AOs over it so that he doesn't feel attacked.

I know that if I said "It's either divorce or more therapy" he would go to therapy, but I really want to approach this in a loving way. I'm not great at being caring, unfortunately. I really want to fix it.

You don't threaten divorce. But you do need to tell him "I need you to be in therapy in order to be happy." And, you keep it on the front burner, bringing it up on a regular basis.

If it ever comes to the point that you want to divorce, then you just separate and do it. Don't make threats first.

Thanks, Prisca. That's a really good reminder for me--no threats, just a reminder of what I need to be happy.

I wouldn't say I'm a giver, nor would I say I'm not confrontational, but I struggle with bringing it up when things are good. We are so busy and really enjoying our UA time, I hate to bring up a complaint when RIGHT NOW I can see he's improving and I'm making a conscious effort to come from a place of love. I started reading a book called "loving somebody with OCD" and it focuses on creating healthy relationships and is much more empathetic than I've been. I tend to be a "tough love" kind of person and DH says he really dislikes that approach to his OCD, but it's hard to fight my natural instinct.