I took my kids and left my husband after a weekend I call the blow up weekend. He let us return home and is staying elsewhere. Our history:

Marriage problems from the beginning. His biggest complaint was sex (or lack of). I had some baggage from choices I'd made previously (slept with most of my college boyfriends and once a guy I only dated twice - really the latter had me dealing with esteem issues). We didn't (and still don't) know how to communicate or solve problems. He also has baggage from an abusive childhood. He has a very bad anger problem. I could include a long list of items thrown, broken, holes in wall, scary road rage, once he even ripped his shirt off in anger, and another time banged his head on the headboard. Not to mention all the cussing, blaming, and intimidation during arguments. Needless to say whatever problems we've had with sex never got any better for me with the anger.

Early in marriage about twelve years ago he had a pain pill addiction (resulted from back injury - he is now on disability and I work). It culminated with him choking me and bruising me. I made him leave. After three weeks I let him come home if he'd quit the pills. He'd did and never hit me again either. But that temper and anger has always been there (ie the list I could write). And the sex issue. For me it's mostly been having sex when I don't want to with no emotional connection and at times can't stand his touch and cry during.

Fast forward to the blow up weekend. He was getting very depressed and holding in a lot of resentment. Saying no one (kids included) cared about him, no one wanted to be around him, and no one wanted happiness but him. We were all trying to keep the peace and do the right things to keep him happy. But yet we would avoid him as who wants to be around to be yelled at and witness his outbursts. In the summer when I was at work my youngest 9 at the time didn't want to go downstairs afraid of bring yelled at. That weekend he drank, wrecked a car, broke at least $500 worth of damage, threw a full water bottle at me (missed), and when I wasn't there am told he threatened to fight our 15 year old, and did push he and our middle son in a chair. The rage got so concerning I called the police. No arrest he just had to leave for one night.

I've been numb and "broken" for so long. That weekend I saw my 15 year old with the same look. I left. It's been about two months and he still thinks I was wrong to call the police and says that I've abandoned him and shouldn't have just taken the kids. Many times I think this is all my fault to. If I had been a better wife/done this/not said that...

I do believe in the middle years we could have solved our problems. Life has been hard for me with him being chronically disabled. I have a full time job and all the household duties. I've tried to enlist the kids help but then would be belittled for trying to structure their time too much with routine. So to survive and keep up I withdrew. I had nothing left to give. And I was a teacher (job requiring many extra home hours) but about two years ago changed careers. All that aside, I do know I've contributed to marital issues too. I didn't make time (which is hard though in my situation).

He really wants to come home and fix the marriage, and says that the separation has made it worse. I'm afraid of more of the same and that potential could be there to cause harm if he doesn't control his anger. He is taking a new medication and says it helps. But he blew up in marriage counseling, slammed a door to take a breather, and then verbally attacked the counselor and was asked to leave. Her observations are that he is too defensive and it won't work at least with her since he doesn't trust her and that I am too shut down. I am definitely not in love with him. I want to do the right thing, not sure what that is, not sure if I want to try, but can't bring myself to divorce either. Not sure where to go from here. I don't know how to let down my barriers. Oh and never any infidelity and been married 16 years.

Welcome to MB.

Have you seen this? What to do with an Angry Husband

I just read through the link. I've actually read most of the articles directed to in the post. Thank you.

My struggle of being unsure what to do is this. He tries to do right, be a good man, and really loves his family. Since he's disabled we are all he has. He stays home all day and mostly sits watching tv or playing video games. He says it's constant work to deal with his pain. If any little thing goes wrong (ie the Comcast remote not working) and he shows even slight frustration my senses are heightened waiting for what more may come. So there is this other side. It is hard for to reconcile the two. I don't know if I should say come home and find a new counselor or stay separated until when and if we can make things work (I don't feel any needs were being met and he'd probably say the same). But right now I am so withdrawn I don't have a desire to see or talk to him. Others tell me that staying with him could be potentially unsafe. I'm not sure if I agree but I also don't know if my perceptions are skewed or not.

Hi flowergirl, welcome to Marriage Builders. You are doing the right thing. Dr. Harley would absolutely advise that you don't allow him back home until he RESOLVES his anger issues. He should not be allowed around you until he goes through anger management training and learns to control his behavior. You should never tolerate another angry outburst. Your husband is out of control when he is angry and he can kill you when he is out of his mind.

Is he an alcoholic?


Another condition, besides completely overcoming his anger issues with a professional, would be that he stop drinking forever.

Please read all the information we have here about anger management and how to manage it. It is all developed by Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders.

There is only one side. That side is that if he needs his family so much, he needs to stop pushing them away. Being in pain is no excuse to abuse others. As his wife, you should DEMAND that he behave better. Do you want your sons to grow up to be angry punks? Their lives will be lives of rejection and loneliness if they behave like their dad. They need to see that most women will never tolerate such treatment.


Yes, you are unsafe. He needs to go through intensive anger management and demonstrate anger control for AT LEAST A YEAR. This man can kill you when he us out of control. It doesn't have to be like that. He can stop drinking, get his anger under control. Once that happens, we can teach you how to fall in love again. BUT that can never happen in the current environment.

No he isn't an alcoholic. He had been temporarily (several months or so) drinking moonshine from a friend to deal with pain, both physical and emotional. As soon as I left he quit. As it wasn't long term I don't think there is a problem there. He also smokes weed for pain (not legal in our state). He claims he has to have something and I won't let him take pain pills. Damn right after the choking instance twelve years ago. I'm sorry he's in pain. It is really bad. But he clearly can't handle substances. Weed may not be as bad but I don't even like it. He started growing it to save money. It controlled so much of our lives. I couldn't just ask my sister to come over. I had to make sure he wasn't working on it because we hid it from everyone. Even our kids had to hide it. They couldn't have a friend spend the night if it was going to be a time when it would smell up the house. I still get angry when thinking about how many years it controlled us.

I also posted a reply that recorded before yours.

]
Men who love their families don't abuse them. If he wants to prove he loves his wife and children, he can take the necessary steps to completely eliminate his abusive behavior. He doesn't try too hard from what you describe.

Is he still smoking dope? Your lives sound completely out of control due to his anger and his use of dope. My husband also has chronic back problems and he is not taking dope. He manages it with steroid treatments and advil. Has your husband looked into other alternatives or is he using his back pain as an excuse to get high?

Yes he is still smoking. Since separated he withdrew a lot of money to buy some since he isn't growing it anymore. He quit that after I left. But only because he wasn't sure what I might do (turn him in). But now he isn't here so he can't grow it. We owed my parents some money that we didn't have to pay back until they died (it would come out of my split with siblings) but I went ahead and paid them now. I didn't want all our savings spent on weed. He thought I was wrong but I felt he was wrong to blow money on it. But then I start thinking (like he wants me to) that he does need pain relief. He does have a bad condition. He walks with a cane and barely at that.

I missed the other question. He tried other treatments many years ago but to no avail. At some point he gave up on doctors and succumbed to the thinking this is it, nothing I can do, it will gradually get worse. It's been years and I know they have to have something new that could help.

Your husband is a mess and part of the reason is because he has been enabled to such a great extent. I realize you have stopped that now, but I would take this a step further by not allowing him back into your lives until he makes radical changes in his lifestyle. Being in pain does not entitle him to abuse others. Another problem is that he will never be able to control his behavior if he is high on narcotics. Not to mention that pot is illegal in most states. He would need to get treatment from a pain management specialist and agree to stay off of alcohol and pot.

I would make this a condition of coming back:

1. complete anger management treatment and demonstrate new behavior traits for at least a year

2. eliminate all alcohol and pot

3. find pain management solutions that will complement your marriage by seeing a pain management professional - it must be a solution about which you are ENTHUSIASTIC

4. start dating after he has completed anger management and use the methods in this program to restore romantic love

Will he get into an anger management program?

This should be a must before you allow him back. Where is he staying now?

If he wants people to be around him, he needs to stop abusing them.

He hasn't done it yet but said that he would go to anger management. I don't remember this but he said it was court ordered twelve years ago. When he choked me he was also arrested for deadly conduct (no guns now). Apparently he feels it didn't help. But then I did let him come home after three weeks too.

He is staying at an extended stay hotel which we can't keep affording. I'm thinking of separating his disability check in a separate account of his own and leaving that to him. You pay your bills. I know he is being choosy because he wants a location where he can smoke weed.

I've been making a list of conditions to give him. Similar to what you've listed Melody. I was going to go over it with my therapist first Tuesday. I don't know if I'll ever be enthusiastic about any of it again though.

He thinks since it's not always this bad I'm giving him a bad wrap for this one incident. But with the smaller incidents and with what happened twelve years ago and now how can I ever trust again?

He knows he can say these things and that you will allow him back, because that has been your pattern. Give him your conditions and stick to the conditions you have set.

This will set an excellent example for your boys.

He will need to find one that does work. Look for a program that follows the guidelines given here. Tell him he will need to demonstrate anger control for at least a year before you will even consider taking him back.


That is perfect. Give him his disability check and let him figure it out.


You may decide to end the marriage and that is your right. If you need to speak to a professional, I would email Dr. Harley. [it is free] The advice we give you here comes from him. We are not just giving our personal opinions.


Its not bad for him because he is not the victim.

One thing I had to realize was how much I was enabling this behavior.

I would stop accepting it. Talk to your kids and apologize for not protecting them.
I mean your action conveys to the kids that his behavior is fine.

If he EVER yells or is angry or smokes dope- call the police & turn him in.

One lesson is protecting a person from the consequenses they should be facing doesnt help them or you.

I would give him your conditions for reconcilliation & file legal seperation or divorce to at least protect yourself. Then let him see if he steps up to the plate! I would not even speak to him until he is enrolled & going to intensive anger management, makes you promises of care etc.

One last thing- it really does not matter if he was a saint, great in all his ways, and the best on earth if he STILL has your children so scared they can not even come down stairs out of fear?

I mean, his abuse of your children is so so so bad that as a non emotional outsder - I am shocked!

Do your kids even Want you to consider staying with him? Honestly?

And something that forces an abuser to stop- agree with the.... "None of you want to be around me wha wha wha...." "Yes, you are totally correct, when you act like this we don't want to be around you."
Or something like that. Stop fighting him on the manipulation and agree. He will stop.

Thank you so much. You've both been very helpful. I know the pattern I've been in with enabling the behavior has affected me. I struggle with knowing my own worth and knowing my own decisions and standing up for them. Ironically I am seeing the therapist we both did but individually. We have developed a rapport although my husband did not. And she has seen him and his anger so I think that is helpful.

I wish I had gone to therapy years ago. It is so nice to have someone listen, not judge, and validate me. With his history (abusive childhood, sent to an alternative school in HS for behavior issues, tons of therapy) he had me thinking all counselors and therapists only made problems worse.

I may email Dr. Harley. Can you tell me how to do so? I don't see a link or I'm missing it. Thank you.

The youngest now 10 is enjoying his dad's company. They go to dinner at subway sometimes. The 12 year old doesn't want to see him but is mostly just indifferent. The 15 year old does NOT want to see his dad at all.

We do not have legal separation in my state. So my only options are separation as is or divorce.

You can email him here: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. But please read all of his work on anger management. Did you listen to his radio clips? Read his articles? My point is that he is a clinical psychologist and is very experienced with these situations. Not sure why you would need to cover off with a less experienced therapist.

You can file for divorce, get custody and financial protection in place and then drag it out. If he doesn't make a radical change, you can go through the divorce. If not, you can drop it. The point is that you need to be legally protected.

I haven't read and listened to everything. I will do that.

I'm not sure what you meant by cover off with a less expensive therapist.

In my state I had to file for divorce as well & use it as my legal separation. Still a great idea to protect your assets.

I think you should also call around your area to the abuse shelters or domestic violence and just talk to them. They usually have free clinic & therapy etc. I believe you would be surprised at how bad your situation is.

So the older two will still feel betrayed if you stay with him, but your youngest could still have a relationship if you divorced....? Is that correct?

Unfortunately, this is usually true. In your case, it is probably very helpful because you are an abused wife and need a supportive ear. But just consider how "helpful" all your husband's therapy was for his behavior issues. It didn't help him at all.

It has been our experience on this board, that most therapists are destructive to marriages, though.

Correct. I think the middle boy would come around but the oldest is very angry. Being a teenager concerns as he could turn to drugs or run away. He was actually googling how to run away before I left.

I can't tell you what to do but personally- I would do whatever it takes to protect my kids.
To show them they matter.

FG, does he have access to your bank account? If so, I would shut that down immediately and give him the money from his disability checks. You don't want to leave yourself and your children vulnerable to getting financially wiped out. And don't think he won't do that if given the opportunity.

I would get you and your kids into AlAnon.

We do have joint accounts. That's why I took all the money out to pay my parents back (which I didn't have to do now). He opened a separate account already. His mother gave him some money for a lawyer if needed (he won't say how much but that he's to only use it for that). So he could use that account for his disability check. So there's nothing for him to get now.

The account my paycheck goes into for the house bills is in a smaller credit union. There are no branches near by and he honestly probably doesn't even know the name. I handle literally everything (even calling a plumber when he's the one home). I access that account from Downtown when I'm at work. However I think I'll open a new one in my name only.

I've been considering counseling for the kids. The oldest is very adamant about not going. Given the angry example he's seen he can get angry pretty easy at times. It's kind off a fine line. I don't want to push him too much. Honestly I think he'd not get in the car or just sit in the parking lot. My 100lb 5ft frame is no competition for a 15 year old boy.

He has seen the anger card work successfully for his father for years. Showing him that it is not acceptable is a great lesson. And I would certainly not tolerate it from him.

Great!!!

I would also get the locks changed so he can't come in and harm you.

FG, there are a bunch of great radio clips on this thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=165999&Number=2603602#Post2603602

Please also read through the thread linked by Brainhurts.

I completely agree. He doesn't act out like his dad when he gets angry. He very much doesn't want to be that way. He will usually walk off. The worst may be slam a hand on table or wall not enough to cause damage. I've made a fair amount of headway with the boys the last two months. When they get angry and argue and fight I tell them anger is not permission to do wrong. Slow but sure they are hearing me.

Slamming a wall or a table or anything is utterly unacceptable. People who act out in such a way have anger management problems. If he has seen your husband act out in anger, that is probably where he learns this behavior.

I agree. If he is already showing signs of anger that he has seen from his father, then he needs help also.

Ok so how do I handle that when he refuses? I CAN make him go. If worse comes to worse I can take the cell phone or such. My real concern is that making him might cause other issues. He's angry about everything that's happened. Right now he has one parent he'll listen to. I don't want him to feel isolated by this.

I would add this in your email to Dr. Harley.

I emailed Dr Harley early this week. I'm not sure if I'll get a reply or not. To update, I have a letter prepared to give my husband with my conditions. I've already gone over it with a lawyer as well. But I'm nervous about giving it to him. I suppose that's because I've been programmed to always focus on him and keeping the peace. And there's that little voice that tells me I'm doing the wrong thing. At the same time though my heart is so very hard and I can't imagine a good marriage. I don't how to change these feelings.

Also, I just listened to Fridays radio program. It was about a man who left his wife with a chronic pain disease. It was noted that even though it turned out to give a helpful clue, that him leaving an invalid wife was a bad thing. As I am in the reverse situation with my husband having chronic back pain, I feel terrible for making him leave. I know he had abusive behaviors and he needs help. With this situation though, should I be separating? How awful does that make me to leave a man who is disabled?

Writing this brings tears to my eyes. Partly the guilt, but the anger I feel rising up. Anger that I feel an obligation to take care of a man who has caused me a lot of pain (and I know he's in pain too aside from the physical).

FG, your situations are not remotely similar. The disabled woman on the radio show yesterday was not abusing her spouse. When a spouse is being abused, as you are, Dr Harley recommends separation. NEVER does he tell spouses they should hang around to be abused.


How awful is it to enable an abusive spouse? It has been awful for you and your children, hasn't it? Part of the reason this situation has become so bad is because you have enabled him to be a bad man by affording very inappropriate sympathy for terrible behavior. That hurts all of you. By stopping the enabling, you help him become a better man. You are not helping him with the enabling and the inappropriate sympathy.

You don't need to change your feelings, you need to put them aside and start using your logic and reason. Your feelings have caused you to make some very bad decisions in your marriage.

Your husband wants his family to care for him. If he really wants that then he can step up to the plate and make some radical changes. Help him do that by ending your enabling.

If he really wants to have a family, he needs to make radical changes in his behavior. Does he want his family bad enough to do that?

He wants his family back terribly. I believe he'll do the things on my list one I give it to him. The therapist (that he blew up with) gave him a referral to another that also deals with chronic pain. He's called twice already and left messages. He's said he will go to anger management too. I don't know if he's looked into it yet though. And of course he'll go to joint counseling again too. On my list I did include no alcohol, marijuana, or narcotics. I don't know how that one will go. I imagine he'll agree to it but always feels like I'm controlling him - we'll see.

Currently he's trying to go out on a date, and upset that I don't want him here once I get home, and that I don't even want to go to church together. I am realizing that I am extremely mad and angry, and that I can't let go of my "walls" that are protecting me. I sometimes feel I just want a divorce, but feel guilty for that, but also don't know how to even give it a chance. (We did have three joint counseling sessions, but then he blew up and was asked to leave).

I finally stood up and did something when I left. I made the decision to divorce but then decided not to make a rash decision. I never saw another option of separating and an improved marriage. Right now I feel like "working on it" puts me back in a place I was (not standing up for myself). I suppose I think I should "want" to save my marriage but I don't. My feelings definitely don't and intellectually or logically I'm not so sure either.

Did you actually read this thread and what Dr. Harley says to do with an Angry Husband?

You have no control over him, but you do have control over what you will or won't tolerate. And you shouldn't tolerate abuse.

That is cute that he says he will do all these things and has left messages, but talk is cheap. He needs to COMPLETE anger management and demonstrate good behavior for at least a year before you even consider taking him back.

I would strongly advise you NOT to go to joint counseling because that will be a disaster. You will both end up more angry than you were before the session. There is no point in doing that.


You need to take a time out from him. Don't go out with him or see him until you start seeing some major changes in his anger management training. And I would certainly not let him n the house. You don't want to come home and have him hanging around.


I see a persistent thread here where your "feelings" are clouding your judgement.
Feelings are not truth. Do you see how irrational it is to "feel guilty" for a sane reaction? Of course you think about divorce. That would be the natural reaction to an abusive situation. And it may be the best answer in the end.

You have trained your mind to feel guilty for standing up for yourself. That is why this situation has become so dire.


You do not have to do anything. You may decide after a year of separation to not reconcile. THAT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE!! You are not obliged to ever take him back.

Yes I did. Most of it I had already read prior to my first post. I am super analytical (math degree) and can find ways I think my situation is different (ie his disability, or I've caused problems too, etc) and then think and rethink. It's hard for me to make a decision and stand firm on it.

How do I learn to be confident in my decisions? I agree a break is needed, but I am still who I am (or who I've trained myself to be). Is individual therapy effective for this? I am still seeing the therapist alone. Last week she got me thinking using the way he verbally attacked her as an example. That I easily recognized it was wrong with her but don't and tolerate it when's it's me or the kids.

The way you gain confidence is to start making good decisions and following through on them. So far, many of your decisions have been based on pure emotion and have not served you well.

You have been in a very dysfunctional environment for a long time and separating from your husband will help the fog clear. We can also help you on this forum with an objective viewpoint.


The person you are can change to one who makes decisions that are good for you.

When you put a plan together and follow it that will help build your confidence and help you get out of this abusive marriage.

MelodyLane has given you the steps.

Our 10 year old spent the afternoon with my husband - movie, games, and Subway. On the way home my husband mentioned how mom is keeping money from him. He thought our son would have known this and asked him not to say anything when he realized he didn't know. When he came in I could tell something was wrong. Eventually he said something but followed it with please don't say anything I don't want to get in trouble.

I mentioned in a previous post my husband was withdrawing money for weed and he says other things. But the hotel, gas, and food were all on his credit card which I had paid out of joint money. So anyway, I took all the money out of our joint savings account and repaid money we owed to my parents. And he's upset about it. All we have left now are retirement accounts, my paycheck, and his disability check.

Not sure how to handle this. I don't want to keep him from "living" but don't want all our money gone either. Anyhow, now it's with my parents. I'm having a hard time with that objective viewpoint.

Flowergirl, there is nothing to handle here. You are doing just fine. Stick with your plan!!

I need advice. I went over my letter/list with my therapist. One item she questioned was no alcohol, weed, illegal substances, or pain pills ever. Really only the part about the pain pills. She's seen how bad off he is physically. He walks with a cane and very slow at that. Her response was that I'm basically saying he can't treat his pain. And I know not treating it can lead to other problems. Alcohol and weed are obvious but I also told her the pain pills are a deal breaker for me. I got the impression she thought I was unfair but I did explain the history.

The pain pill addiction ended 12 years ago when he sat on me and choked me. I kicked him out for three weeks and let him come home if he quit the pills. He had to go to a methadone clinic for withdrawals. After that he switched to Suboxone which is something like an anti-narcotic. It's for withdrawals too, helps with pain, but doesn't give the high. At least that's what I've been told. He's been taking that ever since. His doctor now won't keep writing the script with all the government rules. So he is tapering off of it and in more pain. And he's still smoking weed.

Over the years I've always been leery of the pills. Even if he had a bottle say from the dentist he would still take more than he should. It was ok though because he didn't have refills. The therapist suggested I allow him but I give them to him. Well we went down that road before and I won't do it. So am I being in uncompassionate making it hard to treat his pain? Should I consider more the situation he is in? I realize there are other options like injections but not always as successful.

Let your husband figure it out. He is a big boy. That is not your problem. Your condition is that you won't live with him as long as he is taking narcotics.

He is not living with you, is he?

No he isn't living at the house. He's still in the hotel. All those years back after I said no to the pills he eventually started smoking and then growing the weed. Well that was a disaster too. I never stood up to it till now.

I don't want the pills (past experiences mentioned), the weed (too much control of our lives and illegal), or the alcohol (the blow up weekend). Unfortunately he can't handle substances. I say unfortunately because someone in chronic pain may need pain pills. But I can't do it.

The weed affected him the least physically but I couldn't stand the control in our lives from growing it and him needing time in the garage to smoke it (away from family a lot). Plus he would over indulge and get high.

Kind of puts us at an impasse. I am emailing my letter later tonight and will see how it goes.

FG, here is the thing: you can't live with him while he is on narcotics because he is not safe. If he has to be on narcotics, whatever the reason, it doesn't oblige you to live with him and put up with his horrible behavior. You don't have to live with him at all. You may decide, regardless of what he does, to end the marriage. That is your right and your prerogative.

But you shouldn't even CONSIDER reconciling unless and until he completes an anger management program and demonstrates at least a YEAR of good behavior. Even then, you are not obliged to reconcile.

You are basically saying that you will no longer be abused because of his drug use and his anger problems. It doesn't matter why he takes it. What matters is that you are no longer willing to be available to be abused. And perhaps he will need to take pain killers. In that case, he can live elsewhere. But your safety and emotional welfare comes first. It is not fair to ask you to live with an abusive man who may - or may not - become more of a loose cannon by taking narcotics.

If she would like to be abused, she can invite him to live with her and take narcotics all day long. I know that sounds snide, but I think its real easy to tell others to tolerate intolerable situations when it is not their ox getting gored.

Thanks for the voice of reason. Makes perfect sense.

But this is where my mind goes:
The narcotics addiction was twelve years ago. Should I give him another chance? All this time later is it still fair to assume he'd end up addicted again? Maybe he could take them safely again.

YES.

Your husband's narcotic addiction has never ended. Once an addict, always an addict. He has just switched his drug of choice. The pain killers made him crazy in the past and they will make him crazy in the future.

If you explained that your husband went crazy and tried to kill you while on narcotics, no decent doctor would prescribe them.

There are many non- narcotic opptions for pain. I know because I won't take narcs.

I was on the radio today. How can I get a copy of the show? Thanks.

Yeah!!!! Good job!!! How do you feel about the advice they gave?

You can listen to the show free all weekend on the app. In a few days they will upload it to archives and you can down load it for a fee.

For the most part it was what I already knew. But his perspective is very refreshing. He also had some other insights I hadn't thought about - like him getting a job and providing for his family. Honestly I don't know if he could totally provide but I'd be happy if he just did something productive. So I could feel like I have a partner and not alone and drained from everything.

I know about listening on the app. I was wanting a copy to maybe at some point let my husband hear it. I'll have to look for it and download it later.

I thought that was amazing advice!! That will surely change your husband's mental outlook.

You know, my husband has suffered horrendous back problems too and he works full time. He is not in pain anymore because he had a laminectomy and has had some steroid shots in his spine. He lives pretty much pain free. When he does have pain, he takes advil.

He gets cortisone shots in his spine.

Opinions on this text he sent? My guilt sets in and I think I'm making wrong decisions. I need to start deleting them before I read I guess.

No I'm not buying into that. Nobody cares what I'm going thru... I've been trying to IMPROVE our marriage not go back to the same old thing. I'm the only one trying to save our marriage. Family! Your only working on FlowerGirl. Feelings can't change if we don't try and have a relationship...remember when we met? Imagine if you wouldn't go on a date with me? Think we'd of ever gotten married? You loved me at some point even tho you say no, but we didn't get to that place by staying apart. This isn't good on Son3 (10yo) either, or the other two for that matter. I think your councilor probably is bias too. Which is what I was worried about in the first place. This is not going any better via the therapist either for the family.

My counselor is the one we saw together that he blew up with. I assume he's referring to his new one at the end.

Is this in response to your letter?

No he still hasn't officially replied. Just stuff like this. I have no idea if he'll agree to the conditions I gave. But it's clear he thinks we should already be dating.

And this is part of the problem. He bullies you into doing things you don't want to do. That is part of the reason you need to be separated.

I would not debate with him. Just tell him that you don't want to see him until he has gone through anger management and has made some serious changes. Until then, communication can be through email. If he sends you these texts again, I would delete them.

FG, keep this in mind, he is the one who wrecked your marriage and he can't be the one to lead you out. He has to make radical changes if he wants to stay married. And the foundation of that is meeting your conditions.

It doesn't matter if he "buys into that." What matters is what is you decide is best for you and your children. And the best thing for you is be separated from him. It is actually worse for the future of your marriage if you see him because he has not changed. He has not made the radical changes that will be necessary to keep this marriage. Seeing him before then will make it harder to recover.

Oh that was actually in reference to something else. He said other people are saying I'm already divorced in my eyes, or I'm planning my case, or there is someone else. I said there is definitely no one else and couldn't believe he'd buy into that. But what you said still applies.

On the radio I mentioned his opinion about me not wanting to see him. Dr Harley said start with phone calls and possibly public places where I could walk away. Yet I still don't want to talk on the phone either. Maybe that would change if he said I screwed up, I realize I did more than just break things, I hurt y'all, and I'll agree to these conditions.

Something that I have noticed is that you second guess yourself a lot. You almost always seem to know the right thing to do, but he throws you off balance. Have you noticed that? The longer you are away from him the more you will stop second guessing yourself, I predict.

I agree you shouldn't talk on the phone for now. Keep it to text and emails.

Yes I know. You are preaching to the choir. Habits are hard to break.

He finally replied to my letter. He agreed to anger management but only because he has to - said he has no choice. He said some other things again like I told you a counselor would make this worse, that he's wrong for his temper but I'm wrong for the separation from one blow up, that it's worse on the kids and they'd be over it by now if we hadn't separated, etc. He also said he wants back in the house. He said because of his health he needs basic necessities and that me and the kids could go elsewhere if we needed to. I don't know if he will push that or not.

Just reply that you are not willing to reconcile unless and until he makes the major changes listed in your letter and demonstrates them over a year or so. Don't argue with him. And if he comes over, call the police and file a restraining order.

Keep in mind, your conditions are not negotiable. That is the least you need to consider giving him another chance.

Did you change the locks?

I didn't change the locks. I was concerned of any legal issues.

I would strongly recommend you do this asap or he will come in, count on it... It is not illegal in any state of the union to change your locks.

I don't believe he will, but Dr Harley did warn me my compassion would get me into trouble. He said I should be tough with him.

As it turns out he was actually replying to an older email. Somehow he missed what I sent. I resent it tonight and this is what I got via text. (The anger management had previously come up in text which is how he already knew of it to agree to).

I can't agree to this it's impossible. Let me list all your bad behaviors (I listed some of the things I thought were troubling) and see what you think. You've already ruined the family. Gimmie a couple days. I'll respond to the letter. Let me guess, the councilor put you up to that...typical. Your list is unrealistic and without thought or empathy. Besides nothing I've ever done has made you happy.

I don't think you can be happy. You crave too much drama.

You do you FG that's all you've ever cared about.

Doesn't sound like he is too cooperative.

I would second that. Do you want instructions on doing this? It is very easy, all you need is a screwdriver, a replacement tumbler and five minutes.

Stay strong.

His comment about this being your counselor's idea along with every other behavior and comment is typical for an abusive man. I'm sure everybody who has ever worked DV is alarmed and praying you stay strong and stay safe.

Please comment frequently so that you can get encouragement and so that we know you are still safe. Change those locks!

I was reading JBKT16's thread.

She put into words very well many of the feelings I have that hold me back from wanting to save my marriage. There is still a lot of resentment. However, I don't see my husband trying to make amends. But rather still a lot of blaming. I've said from the beginning I just want him to "get it". He focuses on changes we both need to make instead of why I actually left. While I do agree, that's further down the road and right now I need him to show/prove to me we can get along without that awful temper.

Another thing, ML said to her it's unrealistic to expect a guarantee that he wouldn't return to the same behavior after returning home. While I agree, at this point I couldn't continue marriage without it. I remember the therapist telling me it takes a lot of courage to allow someone the chance to make these changes. It took every ounce of courage I had when I left. I didnt have courage to stand up to the behaviors, what the kids were going through, or the courage to even say stop it, but I found the courage to call the cops, get help, and leave. I don't have any courage left right now. And his responses haven't helped. In fact last night, he just texted he couldn't believe I was destroying the family especially after his new medicine is working so well. Still no real accountability.

JBKT16, if you read this we have other similarities. I also live in Texas. And I also used to be a high school math teacher. Unfortunately, I wasn't one of the ones to get all the work done at school. Extra work hours and ridiculous insurance prices drove me away. Good luck to you!

FG, his responses should give you very little hope. If he won't agree to make radical changes, there is no hope of turning this around. The ball is in his court entirely.

If he refuses to meet those conditions, I would respond with something like this:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you considered the suggestions made in my letter and respect the fact that you have rejected them. That is your prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to choose how I will live. Those were the only conditions under which I would ever consider reconciliation. Since you have rejected them, I will explore other options.

I think its real important that you convey the message that these conditions are not negotiable and you are not willing to settle for less. He doesn't seem to understand YET that he has no leverage. If he wants to be part of his family again, it will take a radical change in his behavior.

I predict that when he truly understands you are not going to allow him back that he will move back in. He is a bully and is not going to take that lying down. That is why I think it is extremely important for you to change your locks asap.

In other words, you have all the leverage. He has none because you have something he wants and he has nothing you want. He is not giving you anything that would motivate you to want him back. Blameshifting and bullying are not attractive qualities that would draw anyone.

Thank you ML. I appreciate your words of wisdom - always blunt, yet tactful, and to the point. He said give him two days to reply. Tomorrow I'm going to text him and ask if he has anything else to say in response and go from there. If he still refuses to accept then my decision will be made.

You and I both know it doesn't take 2 days to say yes, so I can only imagine the tirade that is coming!


Agree 100%!

I never posted any of my conditions here before. I originally sent this before I did the radio show so there was nothing about getting a job. These four were the main items. I did have some others that weren't as "big" I've left out for sake of a lengthy post. (Items such as splitting our accounts with instructions how to switch his direct deposit, paying his own credit card bill, etc.). What do you think? Was it clear and fair?

1. Continued separation. I can�t say a time limit. If you want to move into an apartment and sign a 6mo or 12mo lease, I�m fine with that. We can split some of the furniture if you need to furnish it.

2. Continued individual counseling specifically working on anger management. At the end of 3mos of counseling, I will participate in a conjoint session with your therapist to evaluate your progress in managing your anger. I would like to know specific coping skills you will be using as I need a guarantee you can provide a home free of outbursts, broken things, etc., and that we can talk and address problems intelligently and respectfully.

3. Limited contact for now. After 3mos of counseling and the joint session, if progress has been made, I will agree to a date night once a week.

4. No alcohol, weed, illegal substances, or pain pills ever - period. Seek alternative treatments for your back. Visit a spine center, pain management, physical therapy, etc.

I doubt he will agree to any of that, so it might be a moot point, but if he does, I would add the stipulation that he investigate back treatment options and get a job. But I have a feeling that won't come up because he will refuse to do the things on your list.

His biggest issue is that he is a drug addict and has been for years. If he can't give up the drugs, nothing else will work anyway.

I just want to emphasize again that you are not obliged to ever take him back again unless you are enthusiastic about it. He will have to make some radical changes to make that happen!

oh wow, so you sent him the letter over 10 days ago and he still has not responded??

I sent it Thursday night before the radio show on Friday 10/2. For several days I kept asking if he was going to reply. I asked if he'd agree to my conditions like the 3mo of counseling with anger management. He eventually said he'd agree to that because he had no choice. I finally said reply by Wednesday. He did Thursday morning. But he replied to an email I sent in August. Somehow he never got this email, but it's in my outbox. Anyhow I resent it this last Thursday night. That's when he sent the text back saying he couldn't agree this is impossible, etc., give him two days, and he'd reply.

Did you see #4 where I mentioned other treatment for his back? Or did you mean something in addition?

Thanks for the explanation. I did miss the part about alternative treatments.


His response and the one you got yesterday is pretty telling. I don't predict he is going to change and become cooperative, do you?

He's desperate to get his family back. I think it's possible he'll agree, but if so, I believe he'll hold it against me. Over the years he's reminded me that I won't "let him" take pain pills. (Recall that stemmed from 12 years ago after his pain pill addiction during which he choked me). So then I'd have to see if real changes were made and if he did anything to motivate me to really want to reconcile.

As expected he said he can't deal with his back pain without something to dull the pain. And that his disability check isn't enough to live on (he gets close to $1600 which is livable, albeit tight, in Texas). He wants me to compromise with him.

I have not yet replied that's the end then, which I will. My compassion is making me think I'm being too harsh.

If he were truly desperate to get his family back, he would not be asking for a compromise. He would be doing whatever it took to win you back.

You are not being too harsh. You are protecting yourself and your family.

There is a huge difference between being compassionate and enabling someone. Don't let your tendency to enable continue to harm you, your husband and the marriage. It is not in any of your best interest. Your husband has been drowning in drug addiction for many years with no motivation to stop. You now have the leverage to motivate him to change. Don't let him con you into enabling him again.

Hang in there, FG, and don't compromise on anything. He is clinging to his drug addiction. Don't compromise on that. You are doing great! Just stick to the plan.

Do you want to post his letter so we can give you feedback? I am sure it was very self pitying, wasn't it?

It was via texting. Here's most of it...

I can't stand my back pain without something to dull it. I need you to understand that. Nor can I afford to live by myself...

I don't want you to leave me but it's unrealistic FG. If Son1 (with scoliosis) back starts hurting and he gets angry and irritable, would you kick him out?

Be more understanding and compromise with me...

I've starved myself just so the credit card bill would be lower. I think your to hung up on money. I'm trying here, but I'm the only one. It won't work out that way. FG you should talk to my councilor about your letter (who also has chronic pain).

Be strong, FG!! Show him some tough love and stick to your conditions.

His texts responding are at the end of page 10 of the thread.

Thanks for posting it, FG. He won't agree to your conditions until he is absolutely sure you are serious. You can show him that you are serious by refusing to compromise. Just as I thought, its all about him and his pity seeking. He has no care or comprehension of the hell he has put you through. So I assure you if you took him back now, you would be facing more of the same.

He doesn't' quite believe yet that you are serious.. YET. He is still hoping that he can manipulate you into feeling sorry for him and get you to make adjustments. However, the conditions you gave him are the minimum conditions needed to even have a marriage. If he won't address and resolve his drug addiction, his anger, and his pain issues, there is nothing here to restore. It is hopeless.

I would put this right back on him and assure him you are very, very serious. He needs to understand there is no room for negotiation here. I would send him something like this:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you considered the suggestions made in my letter and respect the fact that you have rejected them. That is your prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to choose how I will live. Those were the only conditions under which I would ever consider reconciliation. Since you have rejected them, I will explore other options.

I predict if you do that, he will start finding ways to meet those conditions. Right now he wants YOU to make all the adjustments and "compromises;" you need to hold his feet to the fire until he makes those adjustments. If he won't step up then you are better off without him.

Here's his reply to my letter (he finally got).

FG your list essentially tortures me for the rest of my life. And makes living thru this "separation" impossible even on a budget. Let alone divorce. I read your letter again. It's slanted, false in many points with lots of assumptions. And simply not a fair assessment. I'm not loaning out the car. I never thru anything at you. I can't afford what your asking. I won't be able to afford therapy, gas, food , doctors, car maintenance. Or even the bare necessities for that matter. I may have to live in my car homeless just to afford a couple things. I didn't injure foxy in anger. I was trying to swat her for biting me. If I'm thinking of the same injury. It ain't like I beat her senseless. You also left out EVERYTHING else that was apart of the true incidents. Like on the Halloween one. Even though I was wrong how I handled it, I did it in protection of my family from a bully. Your also thinking the only fault you had was not standing up for yourself. That's not the case at all. Before "seperation weekend" I had never did any name calling, never touched anyone - period, that I can remember. I think you want to have a happy family. But you love drama and money more than me. Your letter effectively sets the bar so high and perfect, it's out of my reach. Like your setting me up for failure just to get a divorce. Your expecting me to make all the effort and changes, and it's unrealistic. Your no compromise stance(?), marriages don't work that way. You blame me for all of everyone's problems. Your constant animosity towards me and being overly critical of everything ever associated with me is not going to make a happy family. Only go bad. Your current attitude is not conducive to repairing our relationship, it's poisoning everyone's hearts. I know for sure now you've been telling the kids stuff. They accidentally told me. That's gotta be why Son15 and Son12 won't talk to me and get my calls/texts but won't respond. Your wrong in a lot of ways here too. Equally if not more damaging as my temper because of the finality of it (divorce). The list effectively kills any chance at having a successful marriage/family. Almost 17 years only to fail. I'm not going to drag you down by listing all your failures. But everybody gets angry and has some irritating angry days. Your only looking at me thru anger and negativity. Nobody can promise they won't get angry ever again. With cooperation I can keep from blowing up. And I can be a lot happier with some simple fixes like, not ignoring me. Or showing interest in me. My family hurting me is a lot of my frustration. I could've left you when you came home from school (teaching) for years and was all mad. You've had plenty of freak outs. I just never even considered actually leaving because I was loyal and loved my family and didn't want to see that broken. Suboxone by itself isn't enough. But I'll do what I say I will. You know that.
Anyways, you've already taken all the savings/checking and who knows what's going on with the investments. That's kind of underhanded and selfish. I thought of that but never even considered it because it is compassion less and just not right. I'm going to get less of an inheritance because of all the money my folks have spent on us. Why is that ok? Hopefully you'll see how frustrating and impossible your "contract" is. Nobody else could do it either. Not honestly do it.
I can pretty well some up what else I need with, love and respect from you all. And I will do the same of course. Write me a compromise, or I can. I'd like to go from there...with something reasonable. I was honest here I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt that was not my intent.
Please don't leave! I sure do love you with all my heart. You are my sunshine my only sunshine...
This is destroying me. I didn't know you stopped loving me. Not before grandchildren. I can't stand to lose my family. It's all I care about. God help me please! Where are the people who love, ME? It's like living a nightmare, if only I'd wake up.

Looks like you have your answer. How do you feel about this?


I wanted to make the point that this advice comes from a man who has wrecked his marriage. He has no earthly idea how to fix a marriage. He only has a track record of wreckage.

Whereas, your plan gives him a path to a happy life and happy marriage. You cannot force him to take that path. Just as he cannot force you to live in a miserable, unhappy marriage.

I would stand your ground and do not waffle one single inch. It will take a firm stance for him to really believe you mean it. And maybe he will step up. If he doesn't, then you are better off without him.

Please note that he has made the lives of his family so miserable they can't bear to live with him, yet he is only concerned with himself. He is high on narcotics all the time so he doens't experience or understand the pain he causes to others.

If he really wants to save his family, he can change and stop hurting them. He can prove by his actions taht he cares. But you can see he does not care about you or your family, he only cares about himself.

Addicts are extremely self centered and only tend to see others in light of what they can GIVE TO HIM. This is why he is so blind to the hurt he causes others.

Your husband is a full fledged drug addict and you should see him in that light.

I think I have my answer. My only wavering is from some of the things he says. Maybe it's my personality, or maybe it's how I've become, but I start to believe the things he says. Like maybe it really is just as much my fault. I did have my fair share of "freak outs" which were usually yelling at the kids when I got home. I knew better than to "blame" anything on him and I would be so upset to come home and see they (he the responsible adult?) couldn't even get HW and chores done. And if I wasn't even yelling, just being a parent, he'd still react that I was "in a bad mood" and have an angry outburst. I had to come home to that, cook/get food, juggle sport practices, and grade papers/do lesson plans. I hated the dynamics which is one of the reasons I changed careers (I had to cut stress somewhere). He thought that would "fix" me and make me happy but our problems continued. And as my feelings disappeared and anger and resentment rose, I did behave critical towards him. I guess I can't come to terms with that.

Here is the difference.

You are facing your own faults head on. You are willing to change yourself and clean up your side of the street, avoid love busters and meet his needs, in order to have a good marriage.

He, on the other hand, is refusing to do the same. He is not willing to stop AO's and other love busters, or meet your needs. He is not willing to clean up his side of the street.

Of course you were responsible for your own bad behavior in the past. Marriage Builders does not focus on the past, if focuses on the present. He has an opportunity NOW to do what needs to be done to provide you with extraordinary care. He is opting to NOT to do that.

If you also were love busting and not meeting EN's, he could provide you with the same letter, couldn't he? He could also tell you, I need you to stop your abusive behaviors and start meeting my needs, and I will also do the same, because I want to have a loving marriage of extraordinary care. And you would have the choice to make the changes necessary to do that. I am assuming you would choose to do so, right? This is the option you have given him, and he has chosen NOT to make the changes necessary for that.

That was a masterful attempt at manipulation. But all those words boil down to him blaming you for the feelings caused by his anger.

There is NO compromise when your life is at risk. He has shown that he can't remember things he did in anger. If he had bothered to read MB material, he would know angry people don't remember their words or actions.

And he is not willing to give up drugs.

The arguing with you and trying to convince you that these steps are not necessary is a HUGE red flag -- he's not thinking about you or your family. He's thinking only of himself. A man who is serious about keeping his family will go to the end of the world to change himself to make that possible. He's not even willing to take the first steps.

Who knows, after he loses his family that may change. But he's made it very clear that he's not going to do anything about it until he's lost it all.

Don't coddle him. A wife really needs to hold the bar high when she has an abusive husband -- it's not only taking care of yourself and your kids, but it's the most caring thing to do for him. It's what gives him the chance to become the man he could be.

That is all nice and cute but has nothing to do with the price of tea of in China. I don't care if you were satan incarnate, the past is the past. What has to change is the present and the FUTURE. If you are to have a marriage, serious and radical changes need to take place. So far he is refusing. Rather, he is pointing the finger of blame AT YOU.

As long as he can successfully blame YOU for his drug addiction and his anger issues, he does not have to change. Let me assure you that you are not to blame for his drug addiction or his anger. He is 1000% responsible.

It not "compassionate" to take the blame for his addiction. IT IS ENABLING. And your enabling has made him a very bad man. IT is time to stop, my friend.

EVERY drug and alcohol addict will blame everyone for their addictions as long as they can get away with it. You do not do him or yourself any favors by allowing him to manipulate you by blaming you.

I say this as a fellow addict who has been sober for 30 years. Stop being punked and stop enabling him. Force him to make changes if he wants to stay in your life. You have all the leverage to do this for him. And if he won't change, then you should remove yourself from his circle of abuse permanently.

Guess you better do what it takes to keep your family, then.


Oh, well. Guess you better go along with it if you want to keep your family.


"I'm going to be eliminating angry outbursts and you're welcome to join me for a great marriage if you want to do what it takes to stay married to me."


The instructions are all here from Dr. Harley and he'd be happy to show you how to do it, but if you don't want to, you can't keep your wife and family.


Dr. Harley would be happy to show you how to make a marriage work this way.


No accident about it - if you want to be married to be and abuse me, the world will know; it's just the way I live.


If you'll eliminate your angry outbursts and quit using drugs I promise we'll have a great marriage. Dr. Harley will be happy to help you learn how to eliminate angry outbursts. I'll be eliminating them, too.


Doing it dishonestly would be a lot better than what we have now!


The only reasonable solution to me is that you eliminate angry outbursts and stop using drugs. My compromise is that if you do this, you can stay married to me and I promise you we'll have a great marriage.


If you want to stay married to me you'll need to learn how to avoid hurting my feelings, even accidentally.


My goodness! You probably better get busy eliminating angry outbursts and get off the drugs, then! Contact Dr. Harley for some help to make this as fast as possible.

Great responses, Markos!!

FG, please use some of the material you get here. You have been successfully gaslighted by an abusive addict for so long that you are truly struggling with your emotions. Let us help you with that. You are very foggy in your thinking because of this.

p.s. I would also look into Alanon. Your H's problem is his drug addiction and his anger management. Marriage is impossible with either. Those 2 issues have to be resolved before you even consider reconciling.

Thank you!!! I was about in tears reading your replies. Not because any of it about him hurts. I'd be fine if we divorced. All that's kept me is guilt, compassion, and knowledge that I contributed and haven't tried EVERYTHING. I was about in tears because y'all are right about me. I hate not trusting my own instincts and perceptions. And he still mocks me about that. I don't want to be this way and so far I'm not sure I could be different with him.

I am still seeing a therapist. I will look into AlAnon. Thanks.

hugs to you, my dear friend. It is heartbreaking to see how he has gaslighted you for years. Addicts are professional gaslighters, because their survival depends on it. If he can't successfully manipulate, gaslight and BLAME those around them, he will be forced to look at the man in the mirror. That is what your husband is frantically trying to avoid.

The most caring and compassionate thing you can do for this man is let him go and let him hit bottom. That is the only thing that will motivate him to change. He has a choice before him today; he can either lose his family or he can CHANGE. It is all on him. HE would rather manipulate you and force you to change if he can get away with it.

I never posted my whole letter to him because it's long. Here's a Dropbox link. Hopefully it works. This is what his reply I posted was in response to.

https://db.tt/7Muv8Dp8

You poor woman, I cannot believe what you and your children have endured. I am shocked.

What a brilliant and compelling letter you wrote. That letter was written by an intelligent, articulate woman. And here you are, second guessing yourself. Stay the course, my friend. You have absolutely done the right thing. I appreciate and respect the fact that you refuse to force your sons to see him. You correctly told your H that he needs to change his behavior if he wants to see them. That is exactly the message he needs to hear!

So very relieved you are separated. Stay the course and don't doubt yourself for 2 seconds. You are absolutely doing the right thing.

Reading that letter, it is obvious that you are going to survive this. You're a strong woman. Don't doubt it for a minute.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Is this your show?

Radio Clip of FlowerGirl5's show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Yes

This is the same link with my letter. I added what he replied with, and now my response at the end. Thoughts before I send it to him?

https://db.tt/7Muv8Dp8

Can I make a few changes? First off, asking an addict to stay straight FOR NOW is a first class ticket to hell. An addict can never have narcotics or alcohol AGAIN. EVER. All it does is trigger the addiction. So if you allow him to do it again in the future, then you will get all this back. Again, an addict CAN NEVER USE ALCOHOL OR DRUGS AGAIN. I am an alcoholic and have been sober for 30 years. That does not mean that I "have not been addicted all these years." It means I am in remission and one drink will take me right back to crazy town. Your husband is an addict and he can never take another narcotic or drink booze.

I think it is a huge mistake to give him a budget. This is a grown man, for crying out loud. He needs to use this separation to grow up and start taking responsibility for his life. You have been babying him to a great degree, and helped him be a punk, which has crippled him. An addict needs TOUGH LOVE in order to recover, so you need to be tougher here:

My Response H, I can�t force myself to feel something I don�t. Nor can I be responsible for your happiness - find peace and joy in life that isn�t completely dependent upon me. I am choosing to stay open to possibilities because it is consistent with my values. Staying open to the possibility of reconciliation is my compromise. The only reasonable solution to me is that you learn to eliminate angry outbursts (I will too) and stop using drugs. Having attempted joint counseling and continuing to discuss things now is fostering more anger and pushing me further away. I need the three several months of separation (not discussing everything and with limited contact) to step back and view things objectively. Three months That is not unreasonable. If you are able to make some major changes in that time I would agree , I am compromising by agreeing to consider a weekly date night after three several months of verifiable progress in anger management.

Finances need to be separated to avoid further conflict. Your disability check is $1570 per month. Below are examples of how to make that work. Right now you don�t have any car payment, car insurance, health insurance, cell phone (if I can afford it), or kids� expenses. I will agree to work with you on paying for counseling during the separation. Please get me the receipts to submit for out of network reimbursement. You will have to find a way to live on that.
Apartment Option Room for Rent Option Apartment: $800 Room: $600 Utilities: $150 Utilities: included Groceries: $300 Groceries: $300 Gas: $50 Gas: $50 Prescriptions: $50 Prescriptions: $50 TOTAL: $1350 TOTAL: $1000 EXTRA: $220 EXTRA: $570

Concerning substances, right now I can�t tolerate any of it. I have fear and no trust. It�s a risk I wouldn�t be willing to take at this point ever again. I do understand doing nothing to treat pain isn�t a healthy option either. Please explore other pain treatment options such as injections or physical therapy. I understand Suboxone isn�t addictive, so I�ll table this (nothing else) for three months, as ultimately, this is only an issue to discuss if we reconcile and you move home.

I am not taking your family from you. You can still have the relationship with the kids you choose to have. I am willing to compromise on the visitation calendar. Please propose a schedule.

ML, my initial responses were much like yours. My therapist and I talked about this yesterday and this is what we came up with. I did say to my sister afterwards I was frustrated with her (therapist).

I said the same thing about giving him a budget - that he is a grown man. She agreed but thought this would show him it could be done.

I agree about the narcotics too. What I do struggle with though is severe pain. She said (and he and I have read stuff on the web too) that not treating pain isn't good either. The only medicine he takes (suboxone) isn't addictive. It has an antagonist that counters the euphoric high. He's taken that medicine for years. I can see him having even more anger issues being in extreme pain too.

I dearly hope you don't take her advice because giving an addict a budget does not help him be a big boy. I truly question her judgement in speaking to an addict in that way. Does she know anything about addiction? EVer worked with addicts? I HAVE!


He will have to figure it out. Once again, you are not his mother. This is a grown man. There is no need to treat him like a child. If he is in pain, he can get back surgery and look into cortesteroid shots like everyone else.

If he has "anger issues due to his pain," then he had better solve the problem if he wants to have a family!

Will you please change the letter to take out the parts that are enabling and harmful to an addict?

Your husband has a crippling drug dependence and a dependence on you because you have enabled him. He will never recover if you continue mothering him like he is a child. This is a not a stupid man. This is an entitled, drug addicted man who wants to be taken care of. He will never take care of himself unless and until you step aside and treat him like an adult. I would not even write such a letter to my own grown son, so I cannot even fathom writing it to a 40 year old man.

Your husband is a smart guy. He has all the resources he needs to succeed in life. Please allow him that opportunity by getting out his way. There is nothing compassionate in enabling an addict, I promise you.

I will be changing it. I wasn't comfortable sending it which is why I came here for advice. Honestly, I'm getting quite frustrated with it all. The longer this goes back and forth I think just deal with it already. Step up and win us back. It may be time to make a permanent decision.

I would send the letter and stop responding to him. OR post it here and we can help you with unemotional responses. We are not emotionally invested so we can be invaluable in persuading him you are dead serious.

I would be GLAD to help you drive the message home to him!

What i meant was that you can post any of his responses here if you want and we can help you respond. I just re-read my post and it didnt make any sense. Sorry!

Thanks for the tips. I just re typed it. I'm going to send before I go to bed and won't be tempted to look at my phone or ipad.

Good girl!

Here's his response.

I need a calendar of ALL the kids sports and events to make a calendar.
Right now I don't have a choice because the kids and you are too busy.
I can't afford to live on just my disability. I'm trying now to find anyplace to live. With no internet. I'll have no money for anything like food or gas.
My back pain is too much for "nothing" to be reasonable. I'd be passing out all the time... You know that. You had a hand in this too... You need to make some changes also. That might be a reasonable compromise.
We need to talk because we have kids.

FG, is there a reason he would ask oyu for the calendar of events and not know this himself? How about offering him a set time for visitation that you and the kids work out.

Will your kids even visit with him?

I already gave him a calendar of events with suggested visitation times. So it's perplexing. I let him know I didn't leave anything off. Even when in the house he never really knew when and what was happening in spite of it all being written on a large calendar. Two kids are questionable about seeing him.

Thanks Joe, I already sent you the calendar of events, so I would suggest checking with the boys to see when they want to see you. As of now, Joey and Billy won't agree to see you, so hopefully you can resolve that. Thanks, Flowergirl

IGNORE all of this. He is still trying to negotiate and there is nothing TO negotiate. The negotiations are closed.

If he continues to try to debate and fight with you, I woudl find an intermediary and stop communcating with him entirely. And NO, you do not "need to talk because we have kids." Anything he needs to say can be commmunicated through a 3rd party.

Don't fall for that bullcrap that you have to talk to him directly "for the sake of the kids." That is utter nonsense. It is better for the kids if you DON'T communicate directly because he brings you down so badly. You are a better parent if you don't have his toxic presence in your life.

"I've said my piece and counted to three." -Holly Hunter, O Brother, Where Art Thou

The bottom line is, if you are abusive to your spouse, you will end up divorced. Did he think he could continue abusing you for the rest of your lives with no consequence? The answer is yes, he did. The consequence of getting separated or divorced is that you have to put your big boy pants on and figure it out.

It is not your responsibility to figure out his visitation, repair his relationship with his kids, figure out where he needs to live or how he will pay his bills. It is not your responsibility to figure out how he should manage his pain. He is trying to manipulate and guilt you into staying with him by implying that it is your responsibility to manage his life. It is not.

No, because I don't intend to stay with you because you won't do what it takes to keep me!


But I won't do it so I guess you'll have to have fun talking to yourself in an empty room. Goodbye!

How do I handle this?

Our 10 year old had plans to see his dad on Saturday. Our son wanted to play outside with his friends and asked his dad if he could change till Sunday. Dad said ok. On Sunday our son had a "meltdown" outside with a friend and his 12 year old brother (he doesn't handle his emotions or anger well). Anyhow he didn't want to go after that. He wanted me to tell his dad. I said he would have to tell him and that if he didn't want to talk he could text him. He did text and mostly it was ok. BUT his dad says to him I may have to go to WY (where his parents are) soon because I don't have any money to live on. He previously had told him mom is keeping the money from him. It angers me he's putting this on a 10 year old.

Have you explained to your son why his dad can't live with you anymore?

Well, if he wants to have a good relationship with his son, he'll need to do what it takes to have a good relationship with his son. I recommend starting by having a good relationship with his son's mother.

If he doesn't want to do that sort of thing, he won't have a good relationship with his son.

Yes. Since we left the weekend my husband had a crazy blow up they know. But I've also explained that dad's angry behavior wasn't healthy for anyone and that we are separated while dad works on that. The uncertainty is hard for him but he's made comments about how it's more peaceful at home. He also said he doesn't like it when his dad says things like that that make him feel bad. I did tell him he should tell his dad that he doesn't like it when he says those things (trying to teach them healthy boundaries that I'm just learning).

Just wondering if I should get involved as he's 10.

It sounds like you've done just great. The ball is now in your husband's court -- you can't force him to do right by your son, and you can't stop him from trying to emotionally manipulate your son. Just continue to be honest with your son about what is going on.

I've got a 10 year old ... 10 year olds are smart and not easy to fool. He's going to see his dad for what he is. Don't shield him from that.

A little off topic question. I emailed dr Harley once and he did reply. I sent another question on the 13th and also asked if I would be receiving a book (since I was on the radio). No reply yet. Do you know how long it takes to receive the free book? I was on the air 10/2.

I would email him again. Sometimes they miss emails. Are you emailing to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com?

Need a little support. He has asked me to help him move out of the extended stay hotel next week. I asked where he was moving and he said probably his car. I do feel compassion. Especially with his pain level, I don't want him without a place to live.

He's coming to get his money later as he still hasn't changed his direct deposit. Anyhow I asked if he was still coming and he said he has to or he might as well be dead and that things just aren't enjoyable. This plays more on the guilt and compassion I feel.

It feels like an impossible situation. I don't want him home but don't want him with no place to live.

Just let him know you can send your sons to help if he finds a place to move to. If not, you won't be able to help. He is just jerking you around to manipulate you into taking him back

He has no reason to "move into his car" if he has an income. That is just served up to make you feel bad.


Whenever you feel like using this word, replace it with a more truthful word: ENABLING. It is not compassionate to enable an addict. If can get you to take care of him, he can avoid making necessary changes. Do you want to enable him to continue to be a bad person?

No I don't but this is very hard. Dr Harley even said if I wasn't careful my compassion would get me in trouble.

He did come to get his money last night. He looked terrible - thinner than normal and very depressed. He was holding back tears nearly the whole time he was around the kids, and me when he left. We talked outside a few minutes. He looks beat down like he's lost everything. He thinks I hate him, want nothing to do with him, it's been three months, blah, blah, blah. He got upset when I said I still feel like he hasn't really apologized and I got the old you're just trying to start an argument.

He also said he's about done (and not with our marriage) and the only reason he's still here is our son10. It's hard to watch him spiraling down.

I can just imagine how hard this is. But think of it this way: he has to hit bottom in order to change. He will only be motivated to change if he sees no other way out. if you hand him that way out, ie: enable him, he will never change. He will continue to live a horrible life and inflict that on those around him. When you feel the urge to enable him again, just remember that it hurts him, you and your children to do so. Your husband either changes or he loses his family. That is his choice, not yours.

Enabling is robbing this sick man of the medicine he needs to change. He can choose to take the medicine or reject it. It is all in his hands now.

Trust me, there is nothing compassionate about enabling yoru husband. All that enabling has turned him into the horrible man he is today. It has made him a horrible husband and more than that, a horrible father.

Hang in there and don't allow yourself to save him! You are doing just great so far!


He has a choice now about where his life goes. He wants you to save him again so he doesn't have to change. He wants you to make the changes so he won't have to. If he doesn't change, he loses all. You have given him the path back. Let him take it, FG!!

It is very hard for a few reasons. One of course the guilt and compassion. While I know it may not be best, it's hard not to feel responsible, especially when I could help. Two is the fact that although I do care about him, I'm not in love with him. It makes this so much more mentally exhausting. Coupled with our history it would be so easy to just divorce. For some reason I'm not ready to do that yet.

Why feel guilty? You ARE helping him more than you have your entire marriage with enabling!!! You should pat yourself on the back for finally really helping him.
The only reason you feel guilt is that He tells you HOW He believes you should help him (enable my bad behavior)
Which one is the truth?

Think of it like He went and robbed a bank. Does that stink? Yep! Now he is being hauled off to jail and facing consequences. However, instead of becoming remorseful and actually Doing things (like giving all the money back)-He is busy making YOU feel bad as if it is your fault he robbed a bank AND trying to get you to pay off the judges so he will get off scott free because you have money and know them.

When your kids mis-behave: is it loving to give them candy and reward them for this behavior? Is that compassion?
No-you have compassion mixed up. It is actually more loving to punish them and teach them about consequences.

It is totally in HIS power to turn this around. Let him. He is simply testing you to see where your "line" is to enabling. He will purposely make things horrible for himself to see when you will catch him. (it is simply what all addicts do).
When he realizes that you have no "line" he can force.... THEN and ONLY then- he will decide to change or not. Only thing you can do is stay out of the way.
It really is THE most LOVING and KIND thing you can do for him.

Whenever you feel compelled to use the word "compassion" replace it with enabling. Because your "compassion" is an illusion and an excuse to continue to enable him. In truth, the best medicine for him is for you to move aside and let him find his way. He will never find his way until you stop protecting him from the consequences of his poor choices.


You can't help him unless you step aside and stop enabling him. It is not helping him to continue to prop him up and support his destructive habits.


Of course you care about him. We know that.


What makes it mentally exhausting is his manipulation. He is very successful with this. But you have a sound mind and you know it is not in his best interest for you to rescue him.

How could you help? He has a broken leg and you have a bandaid.

Hold firm, Flower girl. That is how you help him. Stay out of the process so he gets serious about getting the level of help he needs.

It is not compassionate to prevent him from getting real about fixing his life. And remember your boys. They are the ones who need your compassion to step up and keep your home safe. They need to have one parent who is sane and stable and thinking of their needs.

I know it's not the best right now but I just got into a texting conversation with my husband. We eventually started taking about his angry outbursts. He's always told me he has a temper and he's tried to control it and can't. I just now reiterated I wouldn't live with him if he couldn't and wouldn't consider living with him till I can be sure he'll never have another.

He claims medication (abilify) was helping. He still blew up with the therapist but claims he wasn't on it long enough for the full effect. Last night I found out he quit taking it. He said there was no point since he's alone right now.

He also said I'm asking for a guarantee no one can give. So what is expected with the MB program? I feel right in saying I won't live with him until I can be sure he won't have another angry outburst. He thinks he can't promise that. Can someone learn to completely stop having outbursts?

Have you listened to this? Anger Management 101

Dr. Harley and markos both have learned to eliminate angry outbursts. So, yes there are individuals who have eliminated them.

Like Dr Harley told you, medication does not resolve anger problems. There is no such medication. He needs anger management training to learn new behaviors.


Let him know you will consider it when he PROVES he will have no more angry outbursts. His "guarantee" is meaningless. He has to PROVE it over a long period of time, at least a year.

Of course someone can learn to completely stop having angry outbursts. I am one and so is Dr Harley..

This is the perfect approach. If he can't comply, he can't comply. That just means you won't consider reconciliation. it doesn't matter why or how he does or doesn't, your condition remains the same.

Just stick to your conditions, FG. They are not negotiable. He still seems to imagine that he can negotiate, but he has no leverage.

Opinions? I was considering telling my husband about this thread. Dr Harley suggested I NOT tell him to listen to the radio show because he'd probably get mad. I thought maybe he would understand better where I'm coming from reading the thread, but he might very well get mad. Who knows, maybe he'd start his own thread.

After much prayer and crying/screaming to God, I'm in a much better place. Not that it means I'm all on board for reconciliation, but I can forgive (or working on it). Sometimes I have to keep doing it again, but I'm letting go of the hate, anger, and resentment. I can see he was hurting too and feel like I can think better.

I still don't want him to read this though if it might make things worse.

Please don't make the mistake of trying to reason with an addict. You can see for yourself that he does not employ any reason. I know you know this. That part of his brain is anesthetized. His only focus is SELF. He is self will run riot and does not care about you or the kids. His only use for you is to get something from you.

Do not tell him about this thread. Your husband is an active drug addict who is in denial. He doesn't need to understand where you are coming from. He only needs to understand your conditions. They are not negotiable.

if you invite him here, he will just tell us off, take it out on you and then you will lose this place as a resource.


There is not really anything to forgive him FOR, though. He has not changed and he has not asked for forgiveness. He has asekd you and your children to continue to take his abuse because you should feel sorry for him. Nothing to forgive.

You are worrying too much about this, my friend. You need to talk yourself off the cliff and stop spinnig your wheels trying to reason with someone who does not have the ability to reason. If you will hold him accountable, he may eventually regain the ability to use reason again.

Stop worrying about him. Worry about getting your life back in order without him. He is a grown man and it is up to him what to do next.

It is not that he doesn't 'understand;" it is that he doesn't CARE. I assure you he understands. All he wants is the ability to come home and use and abuse you again. If you won't do that, then he will be mad.

You are only a resource to be utilized to him. THAT IS ALL. This is how addicts view their enablers.

Understanding is HIS PROBLEM, NOT YOURS. STOP worrying about this!!

Thanks. I won't tell him.

Good girl!!

Can you please calm down and stop allowing him to yank your chain? You have to stop this vicious cycle. He has been yanking you around for years and you must make yourself unavailable to be yanked, even if it means cutting off contact with him.

How can you stop this horrible game he plays with you? You are a very smart, rational woman, but he has taught you to second guess yourself. He is very adept at throwing you off balance. That has to stop. What can you do about this?

Have you looked into Alanon?

If he weren't in chronic pain I think it would be a lot easier. I guess it's hard to see him as an addict. He is only smoking weed once or twice a week and said he will quit. Still taking suboxone though (that's supposedly not addictive). He says the pain is getting intolerable now.

I did look into AlAnon but couldn't find anything convenient to my house. I was in my cell though so I might look again from the computer.

You do understand he is a drug addict, right? Why doesn't he consider his many options, such as surgery, cortesteroid shots, etc, avenues that are known to stop the pain? He has many options. Yet he chooses the option that keeps him crippled and addicted to drugs. If he refuses to take those other options then he is choosing to be crippled in pain. There is no reason you should suffer for his poor choices.

You mentioned earlier that he was addicted to painkillers 12 years ago. He is still addicted to drugs. All he did was switch his source to something else. He has switched to marijuana and sometimes alcohol. We call it "switching addictions" in AA and NA. A drug is a drug is a drug is a drug. That is all that has happened here.


I would check it out when you get on your home computer. There are thousands of groups and meetings in the US.

But he hasn't quit, so it doesn't matter what he says. The only thing that matters is how long has it been since he used the drug.

Lesson learned - the hard way. I developed a rash that turns out to be shingles. Luckily it's not a very bad case, but still painful.

ouch!! I get them when I get stressed out. Very painful. How are you doing? How is he doing?

I am doing ok. Seeing it all affecting my health made me realize I need to think of myself (for a change).

He is ok I suppose. He is working on finding an apartment with a roommate. I assume he's still smoking weed once or twice a week like he said. He's also looking for a new doctor to prescribe Suboxone (although a narcotic it's supposedly non addictive because it contains an antagonist that stops the "high"). He says he'll quit smoking but I don't think he will suboxone - says he needs something to help with pain. And I haven't asked him about the anger management.

I did email the Harley's again and still no reply. Any ideas about getting the free book?

I will contact Dr Harley and bring this to his attention. Which book were you supposed to receive?

They didn't mention it at the end of the show so I don't know. I was on the air 10/2.

Any word yet on the book from being on the air? It was over a month ago. I've emailed the Harley's twice with no reply. Kind of disappointed as that was one of the reasons I agreed to the show. Thanks for the help.

Why don't you email them directly again sending your name and address and radio date? I am sure it was just an oversight. I have received almost every MB book I own for free over the years. I wouldn't be disappointed over them being slow in sending a FREE book.

Or email JustUss, who offered to help. Just say what book you'd like, and that'll be passed on to Dr H.

Yes, please send me an email letting me know which book you want. I WILL get ahold of him & Joyce!

In light of some other posts today, I have a question that's been bothering me all day. As that post was edited and shut down, I questioned posting myself. Understand as the being on the "other side" I am in no way attacking or intending disrespect.

I have struggled greatly with decisions since separating. I have held onto the advice of Dr Harley and this forum of remaining separated for about a year. And I've been greatful for the advice as my past choices certainly didn't help my marriage. I know I have much to learn.

My husband suggested letting him come home soon after we separated and if he ever did anything again (ie angry outburst) then I could kick him out. I actually knew better at first but I have been questioning lately as we've been separated for over three months now.

Prior to the board activity this morning I found a Wordpress blog of Markos and Prisca explaining their history. He was asked to leave and not too much later was let back home only to be out soon again. This time he spent a few weeks in a motel and then was allowed back with the agreement if there were any more outbursts he'd be gone for a very long time.

I agree with what I've learned about this program, but I guess I'm asking why the hard fast rule of a year? Here is a successful couple that used this program that didn't follow the year separation advice. How do you know when it's the right time for your own situation?

It's pretty simple - if he's not doing the program, it's going to last longer.

Don't grab at straws to bring him home sooner without him fixing the problems; you'll find you are grabbing an anchor!

I dodged a bullet, Flowergirl. It was a mistake to let him home so soon, but I did it because he was so good at meeting my emotional needs when we went out on dates. He made me feel good, and I let my guard down. And I am so, so, so lucky that he was actually willing to follow the program and do what it takes to protect me. He could have very easily had been the kind of man who got home, and went back to the same ol', same ol'. I dodged a bullet -- I cannot stress that enough.

DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID just because I got lucky.

Ok, makes sense, but I thought about acquainting him with this program and showing him my thread. Of course I can make my own decisions, but the advice given was not to show him this thread - that he would most likely just get mad and attack everyone. (In fact the post on the thread this morning sounded like an exact response my husband would give). If he looks at the marriage builders website though and sees the forum, it wouldn't take him long to figure out which thread referred to us.

It is because it typically takes months or years to learn new habits. In your case and the other current case on the board, both husbands are not even taking it seriously so there is not much good to be demonstrated. The other husband and your husband are mostly in denial and are still committing major lovebusters. They have major issues with anger. Dr. Harley says it takes about that long to eliminate lovebusters, learn new habits, ie: anger management and learn to meet each others emotional needs effortlessly. Well, your husband has not even begun.

That being said, you are a free woman who can invite your husband back to abuse you any time you wish. No one here can or will stop you.

here

here

Yes, you should not show him this thread. But you can introduce him to the program. I would suggest giving him the book Lovebusters.

Another good comment:

here

This of course is not what I desire which is the reason for more questions. It's very easy for me not to stand firm and get foggy in my thinking (like the post this morning that triggered me recalling the blog I mentioned), so I do tend to question and go over the same things again.

Prisca, I wasn't there first hand, but did Markos sound angry, demanding and combative like the husband today when he was trying to come back? Did he deny his anger and blame you? Call you "selfish and underhanded" when you asked him to stop abusing you? Dismiss your concerns about his abuse and blame you for his outbursts because you were not "cooperative" enough? Tell you your conditions were "frustrating and impossible?" Did he make comments like this:

here

Would you have taken him back in if he spoke like that? If you promised to stop making him angry by "cooperating?" Would you separate from Markos if he had angry outbursts like those we saw this morning from another abusive husband?

No, he did not talk like that when he was trying to come back. Talking like that is one of the things that got him kicked out!

He KNEW that his anger was his own problem that he needed to solve in order to have a relationship with me. And he treated me like a queen while he was out of the house, which is why I was so eager to have him come home.

He was leaps and bounds ahead of Flowergirl's husband, and the other case on the board as far as his anger management knowledge AND his willingness to do something about it. Even then, I took him back too soon. It was too big of a risk, as evidenced by the fact that I had to kick him out TWICE before it stuck. I listened to my emotions instead of closely following the plan.

If I had followed Dr. Harley's plan exactly as I should have, I would not have had to kick him out twice. I should've talked to Dr. Harley about what I was feeling, and had HIM tell me when to let markos home! I am positive he would have told me the first time that I should wait.

He WASN'T talking like that anymore, and he was going to the ends of the earth to meet my emotional needs and prove to me that he had changed. Markos and Flowergirl's husband are like night and day.

Not on your life.

Heck, yeah. And he knows it, too.

Thanks Prisca, I thought I knew how you would answer because I saw how Markos posted when he came back. He was contrite and committed to meeting your conditions. He wasn't angry, combative and he sure wasn't blaming you for his outbursts. And he DID meet your conditions.

I think your successful experience with an angry husband can be invaluable to others here and I hope they listen to your advice!

An earlier post that may have been missed from simultaneous posting.


Thank ladies. I know these things, but my mind and second-guessing nature are still my own worst enemy.

Good girl!! Yes, you are second guessing yourself again. You really do have good common sense, and I hope you learn to trust your judgement.

I wanted to clarify one other thing, the one year only applies to husbands who are diligently trying to change. It NEVER applies to those who are not because reconciliation should never happen.

Flower girl, I wanted to tell you, my XH did start to sound contrite, and had a call with Steve that made sense to him, but refused outside help. My nerves were shot after so many years of this and I did not take him back. My kids were mad at me for a while having to schlep back and forth, but they understand now. I have daughters and I am glad they understand now that they are out of this, that they don't have to live with this kind of strife.

The therapist my husband is seeing asked to meet me. It was not a couples session. I saw her alone. She wanted to hear my version of events and also discuss his state of mind.

He is going down hill and very fast. She's worried his depression is borderline suicidal. The only reason she didn't make a phone call was because he was in withdrawals and knew that was contributing. All his medications were stolen from his hotel room (suboxone and depression meds) so he was forced to quit cold turkey. She warned him of the dangers from quitting suddenly and gave him some doctor's names.

I believe he did get to a doctor and got more suboxone but not sure of the others. I'm very concerned about his health and welfare. It's very hard not to feel responsible. However, after the long years we've had and the former pain pill addiction, it's more than I can bear.

Did you email Dr Harley with an update?

No I haven't. I had emailed before (on several occasions) and my emails weren't responded to.

FG, I know it is tempting to want to save him from himself but that is not in his best interest. Don't hurt him by enabling him again. He is a grown man who is fully capable of taking responsibility for his health and welfare. Give him that opportunity. I think it is rotten that his therapist is getting involved in this way, but you need to not get involved.

Please allow him the opportunity to take care of himself. You are not responsible for his choices.

Please stop allowing yourself to be manipulated.

ML, no worries. I'm not jumping in to save the day. Just pointing out its hard for me after hearing of his mental state. Watching him go through it is hard.

Don't be swayed. Every addict claims to hAve their meds "stolen." maybe they were maybe they weren't.

I know it must be so hard for you!! But he must hit bottom in order to change. He has not hit bottom all these years because you were there to protect him. Believe it or not, this is the best medicine for him!!!

Now, he has a choice before him. If you don't jump in and save him, he will have to save himself. And wouldn't that be wonderful?

He is in the long habit of pandering pity from you and it has worked in the past. It is not working for him now so he has recruited the therapist to push his "cause."

Why does the solution have to be that flowergirl rescues a grown man? Why can't the grown man rescue himself? Why can't the solution be that he visit a back specialist and get surgery or cortesteroid injections? Why can't the solution be that he get a job and become self sufficient?

If you don't rescue him, he will be forced to rescue himself. That is a GREAT THING!

Flowergirl, how are you?

I am fine, ML. Not much has changed. Dr Harley gave me a call. He agreed my H hasn't shown change and corroborated how unattractive the pity/guilt inducing messages are. They've driven me further away.

My plan was to talk with my H at joint counseling because I just really don't want much to do with him right now. Dr Harley said that's not a bad idea. Go with the intent on asking him what he is planning on doing - to change, anger management, back treatment, etc. It's funny, my H thinks there's nothing he can do to work on things while separated and while not seeing the family. I'm not even sure how much or if at all his therapy is focused on anger management. H thinks he can control the anger with other simple fixes.

So we'll see. Still not sure where this is all headed.

Are you going to the counselor who was trying to make you feel guilty and responsble for your H's pisspoor choices?

It is the same therapist. I don't know that she was trying to make me feel guilty or responsible, although I did. She really just seemed concerned for him. Nonetheless, I'll see how it goes.

Will you be able to withstand 2 people - who don't have your best interest at heart - working you over? Can you take a sane, outspoken friend to defend you?

Your husband is a professional at beating people down so he can use them. He is a user and a manipulator. That is pretty hard for most normal to take. Most addicts are professional manipulators. I know you don't believe your husband is an addict, but any person who is familiar with addiction can tell you this.

You stated once that "12 years ago he was addicted to painkillers." He is still addicted, he just has a new source: marijuana. Addiction is not curable. HE won't quit. And what is really telling is that he has you convinced that he has to have narcotics or he wll have angry outbursts. Therefore, the AO's are YOUR FAULT because you won't tolerate painkillers. Aren't addicts so clever in how they a) protect the source of their addictions and b) blame everyone else?? A CLASSIC addict maneuver!

And just think, he could have avoided all that if he had back surgery or many of the numerous treatments that most people get!

Didn't he already tell you he won't do anything? After all, it is your fault he has angry outbursts.

Yes he has. But I haven't been able to hear it. Or rather confident enough to stand my ground.

I know what I want now (and don't want) and will make sure I stand firm. If he can't offer anything else, I believe it will just be realizing and admitting it's over. I do know this will be easier said than done.

Do you have someone who cares about you that you can bring for moral support? I wish I could come with you!

Well I do also live in Texas! I could bring a family member but I know he wouldn't want them in the room.

I am living in Oklahoma now or I would ask you to come!! Seriously! I lived just south of Houston until recently.

Small world. I live just south of Houston.

I sure do miss it!

I bet. I'm sure OK gets too cold for my blood.

No, not really. I grew up in Houston and lived there until I got married. We lived for 5 years in OKC and I ADORED it. There were actually seasons. We had snow, but just enough to be fun, not to get tired of it. It is just as hot there in the summer as it is in Texas. It is less humid than Houston though...smile.

exactly! The snow is sort of cool, but the summers are definitely just as hot here. Lots of cowboys and BBQ up here too.

I need some support. He STILL hasn't found a place to live, switched his disability check to his own account, or regularly attended counseling/anger management. He is staying with someone he met from the extended stay hotel that's in an apartment now - on an air mattress in the kids bedroom.

All I have wanted is for him to figure this **** out so we could actually see what happens during separation. This strain has been there, hasn't gone away, and has actually made things worse between us (not my intention).

He claims he's made effort with the kids, but he gives up too easy. He asks if they want to do things, they say no, he gets upset no one wants to see him, and blames the situation. It does sadden me to see their relationship suffering, but he was abusive with them too. I understand their feelings. I figure he still could have shown up at soccer games, even if no one said a word to him. At least the kids would see he still cares and is trying.

The counseling session actually went ok. At one point I did feel like the counselor was asking him about his pain and how it's affected him for my benefit, but I didn't let myself feel guilty. He asked her her views on marriage, if she thought it meant forever and you stay together no matter what and work it out. After she replied I asked him if he thought we were going to be married forever (he said yes). I then asked well how long did you think you could continue yelling, screaming, saying the things you were, and tearing apart our house and think we'd stay. Counselor even said she wanted to see more of that from me so I thought it went well.

I'm getting really tired from all this. I don't know where my line is or if it's been crossed. I know that's what's keeping me stuck.

What are you tired about? You are doing great!! Just stay the course. Sounds like your husband has some tough decisions to make, huh?

My suggestion: don't go to counseling anymore. You don't need counselng. You are doing a great job and just need to stop second guessing yourself.

I think that's really cute that the TWO PEOPLE whose ox are not getting gored like the idea of "marriage forever." Isn't it so easy to believe such nonsense when its not their ox getting gored? Neither one of them have been abused.

If your husband does not want to get divorced, then he had better get off his dead [censored] and get to work, huh?

Since it is pretty apparent he is not going to lift a finger to save his marriage, my suggestion would be to file for divorce. Get that part going now.

Actually she said what she brings personally and professionally are different. So I'm not sure what opinion we got but I think it was professional. She said she didn't think one partner should suffer for the other to be happy. And that in certain situations (alcoholics, addictions, abuse, etc) sometimes it's for the best (can't remember her exact words). I'm not sure my H felt he belonged in any of those categories. He chimed in agreeing yeah those people need to change. I could be wrong on my assumption, but having lived with him for sixteen years I know his tone of voice.

So she did not say that SHE believes in marriage forever, but he did?

Does she understand and accept that he is a drug addict?


I dont' understand what this means. Can you clarify?

I guess I'm not certain either. But after he asked the question, she said her personal views were different from her professional views (at least that was my impression). I'm assuming if she gave her "professional" opinion then maybe personally she thinks it's forever. I didn't think to ask for clarification.

My H did think it was forever. I did too. He said something about his views changing, but I think it was coming from anger/bitterness about the situation he has been "put" in. He's struggling finding an apartment, affording things, and dealing with his back pain in uncomfortable accommodations. I believe he thinks he can't handle being "strung along" anymore, that he needs to go to his parents out of state just to be able to survive. And therefore thinking of needing to divorce because he can't physically or financially keep this up much longer.

It sounds like she has no convictions. I can't imagine Dr Harley saying he has a "personal view" and a "professional view."


Well, hopefully he will get it all figured out. At least this is no longer your problem!

The counselor likely experiences cognitive dissonance about Marriage. She was likely brought up to believe marriage is forever but her counseling has shown her some marriages must end for the health of one of the partners.

That sounds extremely irrational.

It is, mostly because people never take the time to think through the conflict and form a new, cohesive opinion which would be fine if she wasn't a therapist advising people.

But how often do we see this--people raised to believe that unconditional love is appropriate in marriage yet know they need to leave their abusive marriage.

Exactly why I stayed as long as I did. And because I never knew there was a thing called verbal or emotional abuse. I thought if I wasn't being hit, I should stay and love and pray. Yet all that happened was a lot of anger and bitterness.

Happy Thanksgiving, Flowergirl! If you don't mind, could you click on mod notify and send the moderators your email address and ask them to send it to me? I just read this amazing article I would like to send you.

Just did. Happy Thanksgiving to you too.

I recently spoke with a counselor by phone that works with addiction and he also told me my husband was an addict. And told me more about the characteristics of addicts. Very eye opening. I thought since he really hadn't abused the suboxone all these years and since it contained an antagonist to stop the "high" it didn't matter. This counselor told me that the narcotic still affects the limbic system which controls emotions. His dad was and still is what I would call a functional alcoholic. Made me think of my H as a functional addict.

We went to another counseling session which was already scheduled. It was ok but I still see "that guy", the one that just seems mad and angry that life isn't treating him fair. The counselors next client was over an hour early and saw him walking in with his cane. Our session was held over 10 min late (counselors fault not his) and this client was getting mad. Purposely loud enough to be heard through the door, she says to someone else or on the phone "Well if hop-a-long would leave on time..." Overhearing my H reacted and screamed back "Are you talking to me?" Of course he had reason to be mad. She was incredibly rude and out of line, but that reaction is just a reminder to me. He has to make radical changes. Yet he and the counselor congratulated him(self) that he didn't react worse as he normally would have.

I am so glad you got clarity on this. Your husband only switched addictions from painkillers to marijuana. His addiction was never in remission. I am an alcoholic who hasn't drank in 30 years, but it doesn't mean i am cured because I haven't drank in 30 years. Most addicts know the trick of switching addictions to throw off normal people. For example, an alcoholic might switch to pot or painkillers. He is still high. A drug is a drug is a drug.

Do you see what I mean? Even if he had not taken any pills or smoked marijuana all these years, he would STILL be an addict. Once an addict, always an addict.


So much for anger management, huh? So much for making radical changes.... Have you committed to more of these counseling sessions?

]
I would challenge this comment. He is not functional at all. He has dropped out of life completely. Probably so he can get high all day. If he did what most people do and got back surgery or any of the multiple treatments, he would have to give up his dope and go back to work.

But why would he do that when he can sit at home all day and get high?

I probably mentioned this before, but my husband was also crippled with his back problems a few years ago. [oddly, we lived very close to you too!] Could barely walk. Painkillers were of minimal effect. He had back surgery followed by a cortisone injection in his spine. He is fully functional and goes to work every day. He even does all of our yard work!

I would agree with you. I only meant functional in the sense he's not passed out all day, that he can participate in family functions, etc.

To my knowledge, I don't think he is smoking weed anymore. He doesn't have the funds to buy it and of course is no longer growing it. He agreed to give that up but has said he needs something for the pain. Hence he's continuing the suboxone. He has made an appt with a pain specialist. Once he goes and gets possible treatments, I'm going to remind him again that he would have to give up the suboxone.

Just so you know, addicts always lie about drinking/taking drugs.


I wouldn't say anything because it is not your problem. He is a grown man who can reject or accept your conditions. So far, he has rejected them. He expects you to change your conditions because it is clear he has no plan to meet them. Like he told you,


In other words, the problem is YOU because you are looking at him "thru anger and negativity." If you would only "cooperate" he could keep from blowing up.

Quitting the suboxone is the least of HIS problems. It is learning anger management, getting a job, supporting you, resolving his addiction. He is not going to do any of that. And why should he, when the real problem is YOU?

She doesn't really respect her clients or their ability to change 'personally'; but professionally she will pat them on the head in a patronising manner if that is what (they are paying for) makes them feel better. Which is a lucrative professional technique really; patients who never get better.

I wonder if your being in contact with him is helping in any way. He actually seems encouraged to do nothing by this enabling therapist. I think I've heard Melody Lane say before that addicts have a curious habit of believing that talking about problems is the same as solving problems.

He feels happy with his pats on the head from a professional and she has succeeded in getting you to join in with this pretence. You've given her a fair chance but you must be wondering at her methods after doing so. You certainly didn't fall for her lines.

But to him; you showed up, you talked. What more is there? This is all a win for him and he seems optimistic now he has enlisted help on wearing you back down into accepting a dangerous environment and being forced into having sex and allowing sloth, disrespect and mockery in order to (unsuccessfully) keep him sweet.

I wonder if your talking to him at all is a help or a hindrance. He greatly prefers talk to action because its always worked on you before.

It might be more encouragement to action if you looked at pulling that plan b curtain until he meets some/all of your requirements.

It will help him meet his goals if he is not allowed to punk out in talk mode. Plus he is destroying your love bank for him past numbness into hate.

If you allow him to nag and gaslight you over the next 12 months, and watch him lose it at counselling- you will not care even if he does change - you will have had enough.

You're more likely to be interested and enthusiastic about trying again if he's done the work BEFORE you talk. And you haven't been exposed to dozens of his 'predictable mistakes'.

Did Dr H mention Plan B?

Unfortunately I was mostly at this point before we separated. I realize feelings can change but I agree not like this.

Well I'm in need of advice again. I decided to file for divorce and did so this week. My plans were to tell my H this afternoon but now I'm not so sure. I got the following texts from him this morning. Should I still tell him? I'll be honest this is causing me to feel guilt about and doubt my decision. So hard for me not to take responsibility.

Well I finally passed out from pain driving. I don't even remember what happened yet. I've got to lay down. The car is screwed.
So much for life
That was all I really had
Now I really have nothing
My back and chest are really hurting
My guts are all twisted up and I feel really nauseous.
Nevermind y'all don't care if I'm dead
Well at least you'll be happier FG. I won't be makin sh** anymore. I'm goin to get warrants for my little pistol. My doc appointment was today for my subs
Even counciling
I'm gonna snap
I'm hurting so bad
Never mind I forgot my new family would rather me just frickin die
Merry frickin Christmas

He sounds like he is going through chemical withdrawal from narcotics. It is more likely he passed out because he was high.

I have to disagree. I have seen him pass out from pain before. I believe he is still on the meds, not in withdrawal, was just going to get a refill.

He can still go into withdrawal. Chronic narcotics cause tolerance to develop. He can get high then withdraw if he takes additional doses during the month.

One of the reasons he has not ever taken responsibility is because you have kept him sick by enabling him. He does not have to take responsibility because you have done that for him. At his expense.

I see a lot of very typical self pity from an addict. Why wouldn't he be exploring options like surgery or any of the numerous solutions to his problem? Because he doesn't have to. He has stayed home and got high for years which has just about ruined him.

I would let him know today that you have filed for divorce and will be moving on. Tell him you hope he will take this opportunity to change his life by availing himself of the NUMEROUS medical solutions for back problems so that he can take responsibility for his own life.

If he plays the suicide card, then you should call 911 and get him taken to the hospital for evaluation. He will never take responsibility for his own life as long as you stop enable him.

STOP ENABLING HIM, my friend!!

Is he in enough pain to schedule proper appointments looking at treatment variety and alternatives? (I don't mean you to suggest this, I mean does he care enough to do it for himself).

If he's not, then boo hoo. His language and attitude are vile enough to warrant your closing down all comms until he gets off his tush and does something, anything on your big boy task list. Otherwise your lovebank will die a stupendous death - and your mind must be numb from boredom with him. He's not a baby and listening to him must make you feel he is never going to be attractive.

You could throw a rock in the street and hit a better catch.

Completely disgusting.

You know this is actually more excusable if he is an addict. If he speaks to people like this purely because of pain, there's no cure for that attitude. It would mean he is not a curable addict but quite simply a hopeless jerk who enjoys being mean.

He's not going to die. You nearly did. Not him.

I told him this afternoon. He didn't react as bad as I thought. He cried and was devastated. Basically told me how he couldn't believe I'm doing this and how awful I was. The guilt and doubt are really getting me. I don't think he will agree out of court either. He's going to fight because he claims he can't live on his disability check ($1570) and he'll need some support.

And now he's asking if there was someone else and I cheated in him (no). And this is the latest text...

Huh, well good luck. I don't think we can be friends anytime soon. Especially how you've handled me our whole marriage. And with me trying to please y'all so much I'm bitter you haven't returned the kindness. The kids no, but you yes. Because that's how it's supposed to work, biblically. Then again if you cared what the bible said we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Lol, he wants to bring up the Bible after he tried to murder you!?!

He is manipulating HARD!

He is such a jerk (and this is me self editing because there are MUCH stronger words Im thinking!). He doesn't get to bring up the Bible after how he's treated you. Don't allow him to make you feel guilty. His situation is of his OWN doing.

PS God even is ok with divorce after infidelity or abuse, so his little temper tantrum is a sieve under running water, it means nothing.

Also editing to say- if he was so devastated, he would do EVERYTHING he could to try to make it better and abide by what you need.

^^^^ Exactly..Anyone who wants to save their marriage wouldn't let wild horses stop them from doing what they need to do.

Good job, Flowergirl!! I know this was so difficult for you but it is the best thing for every one of you. You have done everything in your power to make this work.

Sometimes I wonder if I really did try everything. I know if he had a family member to move in with things would have been much easier. I do appreciate he let us come back in the home after a few weeks. That was the best thing for the kids. The struggle with money and him finding a place to live really didn't help anything. It's unfortunate. I wish things could have been different, that my feelings could have changed, but his behavior only pushed me further away.

I know the next few months will be difficult and hope that I can still come here for advice and support.

Absolutely, you can stay here forever if you want. The ball is truly in his court. It will be up to him to make changes or not. So far he has not made that choice. But that is not your fault.

You won't feel much guilt and doubt once you get his poison out of your ear.

You'll look back and wonder why on earth you bothered.

Friends! Like Hitler was a friend to the Jews.....

He has persecuted you purely for the power and right to get high.

If anything you tried too much. He must learn how to be a grown up and try to help himself. Leaving him be is the kindest move for this spoiled child. Unfortunately I don't think he has it in him to make the most of that opportunity.

I'd love to be wrong.

You deserve a man who is horrified by this and whose every move is to help you.

Letting you live at home doesn't cut it!

You did everything and he did nothing. Here is what he said when you gave him a chance:


He had every opportunity to turn this around and rejected it. You can't force him to change.

I've come back for some advice. I've talked offline to one member but here's an update. Since filing for divorce things got worse. He didn't think he could live. Tried to commit suicide by ODing twice. He had a felony warrant for possession of a controlled substance and then got arrested with the same charge in another county. He's in jail now. I didn't bail him out. He has a court date 3/21. Still waiting on a court date for the divorce. Should this thread be moved now?

Anyhow the advice is about my kids. So many years of dysfunction have me feeling pretty inept sometimes with my decisions for them. For the most part we are doing well. Kids are getting to school on their own after I leave for work. No more permission to stay home just because from dad. I'm proud of the boys. Heck I leave before them and they could just not go but they don't EVER stay home unless they call and get permission. Usually a no too. They've started doing chores (with constant reminders). They are keeping As and Bs. They get to have a life now and not feel like their home is a prison.

But here's the trouble. They've learned a lot of angry reactions. Slamming doors, pushing, yelling, that kind of thing. I deal with the issues as they pop up. Usually we discuss it rather well. If I have questions I'll ask my counselor. Not too much issue there. But they harbor angry feelings about their dad. They clam up and don't want to talk about him. They say leave me alone or he's a bad man. I know they're boys but I hate them bottling it all up. And sometimes I think this is just how they think they should feel but that they really do care. I know this site is about marriage but any advice on this? Should I push them to talk? Counseling? Just find a good youth group? Of course my counselor suggests counseling if I can't get them to talk to me. Really at a loss.

FG, there are several issues here, and the first and most glaring is their behavioral problems. Does your counselor have any suggestions for a good male counselor who will help them with their BEHAVIOR? Another good resource for shaping male behavior is sports. Do they have any interest in that? What about boy organizations? Boy Scouts, etc?


That is how males deal with problems. It would make the problem worse if they went to counseling and talked about the tragedies of the past. They would just be MORE ANGRY. What they need is help with their bad behavior.

There are studies that show that people who go to counseling and talk about the tragedies of the past actually do much worse than those who don't. This is one reason why Dr Harley never counseled married couples together: when they sat in a room and discussed past grievances, they left ANGRY. It is an odd belief in our counseling culture that talk therapy helps people overcome their problems. Actually it doesn't.

here

here

here

I do recognize the boys' behavior as a problem. But the reason I say not much issue there is because they have been improving and I haven't had any trouble handling it. I do see the need for a good male role model. My counselor suggested the same. She first asked if they were involved in the youth group at church. The church we all went to together was really small and in a neighboring town. So the boys and I are visiting new churches near us. We like one we've been visiting. So soon the boys will start attending the youth classes to see how that goes.

I think a male counselor is not a bad idea either. It may have more influence than coming from "mom".

And they are in sports. In fact before all this happened my middle son was the one I worried about the most. He started football this year and I've been so impressed with the changes in him. He and I are closer now too. Unfortunately the older one, the angriest, plays soccer at school but hasn't liked his coaches. Working on finding a basketball program for the youngest.

I guess I won't worry about them not wanting to talk about stuff. I just don't want them to hate their dad. That's the part that bothers me.

ML appreciate the links and quotes. Definitely a good perspective.

Ok, but that is a rational response to an abusive father. If he wants to change that, he can learn to behave like a sane person. If they didnt hate their father after the despicable way he treated you all, I would really be concerned.

Let me put this another way: talking about their dad will not resolve their issues with him. What will repair that relationship is a radical change in his behavior. Only your husband can control that.

Your sons are right to want to avoid him as he is now. Heck, you want to avoid him and you are an adult!

Great thread!