My husband and I have been married for 13 years and have 4 kids. We have alllllllways struggled. It's never been easy, it's never been truly good. It makes me sad to say that but it's true. Our early issues have to do with addiction. He was a heavy drinker, light drug user, and a smoker. I'm a teetotaler who has never smoked. I've always been clear with him that I wasn't ok with his drinking, drugs, or smoking. He told me when we were dating that he didn't want to do any of that and that he wanted me to help him quit. He's quit drinking almost entirely, drugs completely, but he's never quit smoking. He's lied about all of it about a million times, we've had more fights over it than I can count. But I'm kind of more resigned to the smoking thing now than I once was, since the rest for the most part is gone (he's lied about drinking when I've gone out of town several times). The trust issues from all of that are still an issue.

But our main issues now are that I've kind of matured and changed, and he hasn't. I was 19 when we got married. I didn't know who I was or how I felt about things, although the Ive always kind of been a goody two shoes. Well, I've become even more.... What's the word? Conservative? I don't like to watch racy movies, I don't like crude humor, I don't like swearing, I value my faith and my church community. I would love to have a faith based marriage, and do feel envious of couples who do.

My husband is... Just not interested. He wants to do what he wants to do, and watch what he wants to watch and swear and smoke. He'll go to church with us, sometimes begrudgingly, but he doesn't want to do much else with it.

Honestly, it just feels like I'm married to someone I wouldn't even choose to be friends with. I admit, most of the changes have been mine, but he did tell me he wanted to be different when we got married.

He's also never been thoughtful or romantic. Not even when we dated. My first Mother's Day he left the house the morning of and went to Walgreens and brought me back a lady's shaver. And that's about how thoughtful he's been in general throughout our marriage.

As a dad, he loves our kids fiercely. But he rarely has time for them because his job is so stressful and requires such long hours. He's more of a hands-off dad and very not sentimental. He had to be out of town for our daughter's 10th birthday recently, and didn't acknowledge it except to FaceTime her before bed. I was really sad that he hadn't written her a note she could have woken up to, or gotten a small, but thoughtful gift to say sorry for missing it.

Yes, most of this I knew when we got married and I don't have much excuse for going through with it except to say that I was struggling emotionally and was very fearful of being rejected by him. I definitely have issues as well.

Lest I sound like a saint in all of this: I have been extremely critical and angry for a long time now. I'm just fed up with him, and frankly I don't like him. I've also almost entirely stopped having sex with him, which could be its own letter altogether. He has been very demanding about it and shamed me over it but I'm to a point now that I don't even care. It feels really wrong to have sex with him when I don't even like him and we have no relationship or intimacy. I really do feel awful saying that. I want a good marriage, especially with the man I've been with and who is the father of my children. But at this point I feel like the only thing that would satisfy me is a MIGHTY CHANGE in him. And that seems exceedingly unlikely, and maybe even unfair to ask.

Can anyone offer any advice?

For what it's worth, I've read his needs her needs. It was really good but we haven't implemented it. My husband says he's willing to work on things, but won't be able to make much time until next year, when he could leave his contract at his job for something less demanding. Leaving his contract early would end his career, but I do think he could manage his time off better than he does.

There is a lot that needs to happen here, but I would start by him never being away from you overnight any more. There is no way to meet each other's emotional needs when you are away from each other overnight, and it is a lifestyle that leads to infidelity.

Thanks markos. I am back seeking more advice. He actually agreed to try MB And we bought the online course today, so that's good news.

Other good news: there's no infidelity. At least I really don't think so on his end; I know there's never been any on my end. Also he did end up changing jobs and although he leaves before we get up in the morning, he's home by 5 every night for the most part.

The main things I'm wondering if I can get a little feedback from you guys on is 1. UA time 2. Sex and 3. Mixed faith marriage

1. We have 4 kids. I 100% agree that they should not take priority over our marriage, but I also feel like they also need our UA. We try to do date nights with one kid at a time twice a week (so they each go every other week with alternating parents). I don't want to give that up. I also have routines at night with the kids that take up a decent amount of time: scriptures as a family and a read aloud chapter book together. My husband likes to go to bed at 9, which is only 30 minutes after I finish everything up with the kids. And two of them are a little older (11 and 13) so an earlier bedtime would be a little crazy. Having said that, I do absolutely want to spend a lot more alone time than I currently do with my husband. We have date night on Friday most weeks, and we can definitely be more consistent with that. I'm just not sure how to get the 25(!!!!) a week of UA in. That just sounds crazy at this moment.

2. I want to have a great sex life, I do. But right now I am not at all attracted to him and sex sounds like a punishment. I do find him physically attractive but I literally do not like him or really have much respect for him. Do I just power through right now or am I allowed to wait until I actually WANT to again?

3. I feel like mixed faith (in this case faith/no faith) marriages don't get covered much by MB. My faith informs everything I do, how I want to raise my kids, and who I want to be. I just am having trouble wrapping my head around how to make this work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Did you buy online course #2 or #3?

1. You are going to have to do better at making your M your #1 priority. Sacrificing your M for the sake of the kids doesn't make a good M. And a bad M then effects the kids. This is one where you will need to make some big changes.

2. The attraction and desire will return IF you can get the appropriate UA time in ... and implement the rest of Dr Harley's principles. Are there LBs in your relationship that are causing this lack of intimacy?

3. Mixed faiths can create more conflicts but if you and your H have a true MB marriage then you can work together to find working solutions. This shouldn't be an issue if you develop the habit of brainstorming and negotiating.

How much of the program have you really implemented in your M?

Advice is simple. You made a vow to God to honour your marriage above all else. You're not. You're putting extra time into your children that is leaching from your marriage. Your non-Christian husband is surely confused by that too.

Here's what we do: kids attend a practicing Christian school all day which includes mass, in bed by 7:30pm, and we spend 7:30pm until 9pm alone (whether in bed or out, if there's a babysitter). Lots of God in a day, but time to honour our vows. Not only that, but we SHOW the children what that covenant looks like in practice.

I can hardly think of an adult complaining their parents were too in love to read scriptures until 9 each night.

Your priorities are clearly not your marriage, what can YOU do to change this?

Perhaps I am misreading this but if you are trying to do date night with a child in tow, that will absolutely not work.

Have you read this?
Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other

I thought we were getting everything. But now I'm not sure after your question.

Your Current Order:
NAME PRICE PROPERTIES QTY SUBTOTAL
His Needs, Her Needs 12 Lesson Course AND Love Busters 12 Lesson Course
$397.00 TYPE Course
1 $397.0

1. I agree with you. I guess I feel like I'm not OVERdoing it with my kids so I'm not sure where to get that amount of time from. I know that we can do better than we are, no question. I don't see where to get 25 hours a week. Dr Harley's estimate for how much time is left in a week (after work and sleep) is 52 hours. Devoting 25 hours to private time would leave 25 hours for absolutely everything else. Time with our kids, time with family as a whole, 'meal prep, eating, cleaning, personal hygiene, errands, paying bills, kids activities (there's only one that they go to in the evenings, the rest are done when H is still at work). Just doing the math, I am not getting it.

2. There are definite LBs galore. From me, mainly AO and some DJ. From him, tons of IA, AH, and some AO.

3. Good to hear.

At this moment, none. We did try it years ago and began implementing but it didn't stick. Bought the course yesterday and plan to work through immediately.

Did you read this article?

Also, here Anger Management 101

You did get the whole course which is online program #2.

Online program #3 comes with accountability and private forum access to Dr. H.

I was just wondering which option you chose.

I agree with the previous posters about putting your marriage first and modeling that covenant relationship. It came before the kids and it's the foundation for your family.

For what it's worth, we do scriptures at dinner. The later it gets in the evening, we have no energy left to put forward our best selves for each other. When you were dating, did you read scriptures together every night? Would that have driven you to marry?

It is great that your husband is home in the evenings now. Obviously you can't override your husband's agency in regards to religion, but the program will teach you how to handle that without distespect and judgment, and create compatibility in the rest of your relationship, back to how you felt when you decided to marry.

For me, Following MB rules IS practicing religious beliefs. If done right, we direct our highest charitable efforts toward our spouse. Our children see a great model of charity, respect, teamwork, functionality plus the passion God designed for the bounds of marriage. It puts things in the right order. What is the point of reading scripture, if we can't put it in practice with our spouse? Strong marriages create strong families.

I can't see getting my kids ready for bed and in bed at that time. I understand it works for you but two of my kids are older and a 730 bedtime would be nuts. I even feel like 830 is early for them, but they get some time to read alone after they get in bed so whatever. Also just squeezing everything in that time would be hard: dinner, dinner clean up, showers, bedtime routine, dad spending time with them etc.

To be clear, I am NOT giving my kids even close to 15 hrs a week of UA, nor is it my goal to. I feel like I'm kind of giving them the minimum I can feel good about as it is. The additional time I could dedicate to private time with my husband would have to come from somewhere else: streamlining meal routines, cleaning, wasted time here and there, etc. Sciptures take 15 min a night on average. I feel it's important, and don't feel it takes up that much time. Our read aloud chapter book is maybe 20 min.

Look I'm not trying to be argumentative, I know that you guys feel strongly that people who feel this way are wrong just based on reading other threads but surely you see that basic math and physics come into play.

Let's just say I could do 1.5 hours per night by sending my teen and preteen to bed at 730. That's still only 10.5 hours a week. Add a long date night Friday (4 hours) I'm at 13 hours. Even if I did ANOTHER long date night on Saturday, that's still only 15.5 hours, and I'm supposed to get to 25. Literally how??

No, this is alone time with each child. Generally how we do it is on tuesdays or Wednesdays I take one and and my husband takes one kid and we do something fun. With just them. (Separately, this is one parent- one kid). We alternate so that each kid goes every other week, with alternating parents-- so with mom and 2 weeks later with dada and 2 weeks later with mom, etc) This generally is 1-2 hours, averaging 1.5 I guess. That is literally the only truly 1 on1 time they get, and I think that's painfully low.

We don't know right or wrong based on 'reading other threads.' Most of the people who post here have LIVED IT. Many of us, like you, thought it was impossible to have that much UA time, and we cut corners. And we paid for it, because our marriages did not get better.

We know from experience the difference between dedicating to the UA time or not. I personally feel more in love with my H in a matter of days when we are getting adequate UA, and vice versa, it is that impactful to the lovebank.

I have 3 kids. I don't read to the every night, and we often go on dates in the evenings. They are smart, well adjusted kids. They are all in advanced classes and have friends. So, we advise you because we know it CAN be done. You need to start looking for the solution instead of the problems.

Yes, and while I agree with it in theory, I'm having trouble with the number of hours I'm expected to be alone with my husband.

The thing you have to do is schedule your UA time together FIRST, then fit everything else in around it. This is Dr. Harley's recommendation. Markos and I have 8 kids, and this is the only way it will work. If you don't schedule your UA first, other things tend to creep in and take over your time.

Schedule 4, 4 hour dates outside of the house each week. Then schedule 15 hours to spend with your children as a family. Then schedule everything else. The time is there, you just have to schedule it.

Hold off on sex until you feel like it. You don't want to create a sexual aversion. But, if you start getting the UA hours in each week, and there are no lovebusters, you will start to feel like it.

MB addresses this. When you are following the Policy of Joint Agreement, it doesn't matter if your faiths are different. I know it's hard to wrap your head around right now, but this is solvable. First, agree to never do anything unless your spouse is enthusiastic. Second, start getting your UA in. Once those two things are done, your marriage will be in a better place and you will be able to brainstorm ideas on how to raise your children in a way that makes you both happy. Check out Dr. Harley's book He Wins, She Wins to learn how all this works.

Dr. Harley says: "You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintaining a passionate and fulfilling marriage." The Policy of Undivided Attention

You can certainly get 25 hours out of that 50 hours that is left, and still have 25 hours left over for your kids and other obligations.

FWIW, it's more important for a child's security, happiness and wellbeing that their parents are happily married than it is for them to spend individual one-on-one time with each parent. We used to do the one-on-one dates with each child, too. They are much happier today now that markos and I are in love than they were then.

The best gift you can give your children is to have a romantic marriage with your husband.

Haha, I meant by MY reading other threads, I can tell that you think people are wrong who have a hard time with this concept. Sorry, I've been typing on my phone which always makes me lazy about how to say things so it's less clear.

I used to have a hard time with the concept, too.
It's not about what's right and what's wrong. It's about what works, and what doesn't work. If you don't get the UA hours in, the program will not work.

I just don't know if I can get there. I did a parenting course that said that every person (adult or child) is hardwired with an innate need for a feeling of belonging and significance. It emphasized that each child would need 20 minutes of UA (one on one) per day, every single day. It said that nothing would pay larger dividends in your child's life (although to be clear, I think it meant nothing in your PARENTING would have a greater impact, I don't think it was comparing it to your relationship with your spouse). I haven't been able to do that yet, but it is my goal to!!

I'm actually uncomfortable with an either-or proposition. While I agree that a good marriage is central to my children's happiness and well-being, I don't feel like I am one of these people obsessed with my kids and their activities, eager to put my husband on the back burner. Just as I would be uncomfortable with a parenting philosophy that said to sacrifice my marriage for my kids, I don't think I should sacrifice my children for my marriage. I don't feel like I should have to choose. I should be able to have a great marriage and ALSO give my children what they need, including individual attention.

Gotcha! But I do think it is very hard when you come here to step out of the box of what you think you know. Most of us have had to do this. We come here because our marriages are in the ditch, and we need help. But when presented with the formula to make it better, we cherry pick it because it just won't work in our situation. I do not want you to make the same mistake! You will learn the hard way that cherry picking will not work. UA time is such a key component of this program, Dr Harley will not work with people who are unwilling to do UA time. It is because he knows that nothing will work if they skip this step.

I haven't sacrificed my children for my marriage. They have benefited greatly from me scheduling my UA time with my husband first, then scheduling the 15 hours with them. There has been no sacrifice. I have an absolutely wonderful bond with each one of them, even though we do not get 20 minutes alone together each day.

Scheduling your marriage first does not mean you are sacrificing your children for your marriage.

BTW, Dr. Harley recommends you spend 15 hours a week for Family Commitment time. With 4 kids, that's far more than 20 minutes each child every day (it's closer to 30 minutes a child a day). Again, the time is there. You just have to schedule it.

Marriage Builders covers this situation frequently. We had a poster here Doormat_No_More who had become an atheist and he and his religious wife built a great marriage.

There are obstacles but they have to be handled with the Policy of Joint Agreement.

I think it would be helpful not to mix your metaphors. UA is Dr. Harley's term for 15-30 hours per week spent meeting your spouse's intimate emotional needs: recreational companionship, affection, intimate conversation, and sexual fulfillment.

HAHAHA! I just meant undivided attention, but i see your point.

Well, the math simply does not compute, Prisca. You saying it does doesn't make it so.

The 50 hours per week has to cover soooo much, and he recommends 15 hours for spouses ALREADY in love, not ones who need to fall in love. So 25 hours for marriage ALONE, 15 for family commitment, that leaves 10 hours for every other thing in life! EVERYTHING. Meals, cleaning, bills, errands, bedtime (bathing kids, brushing teeth, bedtime stories), church, kid activities. HECK, there isn't even time for POOPING.

It does compute. I live it, with twice the number of kids you have.

You don't have to try. But, the program will not work otherwise.

Why not devote more time to the kids after the marriage is restored and you can go down to 15 hours per week for the policy of undivided attention?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

I know I need to get on board, but right now I feel like the advice you guys are giving me, or rather this program is giving, is to grow a third arm or go buy a unicorn. Even when you explain it, it seems like you're asking me to defy the laws of physics and have more time in my day than exists.

Okay. Then don't do it. No one is forcing you.

But if you want to follow the program, this is the first step. It's your choice.

I think you're misunderstanding:
meals - Dr. Harley encourages you to have family meals as part of your family commitment time
cleaning, bills, errands - that doesn't come out of your remaining 50 hours, that comes out of the time allocated to work. Are you employed, or a fulltime homemaker?
bedtime - this is either family commitment time or the time allocated to your work or the 12 hours Dr. Harley mentioned when he said "Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours"
church, kid activities - do these in a way that they meet your emotional need for family commitment so they can be part of that scheduled 15 hours
POOPING - I'm sure that comes out of the 12 hours if you're looking for where it goes in the schedule

For now, would you mind addressing a couple specific issues?

My husband likes to watch TV and many of the shows he watches have sex scenes (with or without nudity) and a lot of strong language.

I really hate it. He thinks I'm being a prude and being controlling. He would say that me getting on to him for watching it is a LB or a DJ. I feel like him watching it is IB.

I mainly don't like it because I don't want it in my home. I teach my children not to watch that kind of thing, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable having their dad do it when I teach them not to. I also don't like him watching sex scenes. He has struggled with porn in the past and I just don think it does any good for him to be dipping his toe in, so to speak, not to mention some of the scenes include women's breasts, perfect bodies, etc. which bothers me, too.

He says, "which one is it, sex is good, or sex is dirty and bad??" He also feels like not watching stuff with bad language and sex means he basically would never watch TV (which wouldn't be the worst thing in my view)

I see your point with much of this. I do think it's a little hypocritical to say that every other thing, especially our children, can be multitasked away, but NONE of the 25 hours can.

Cleaning can't entirely come out of "work." I am a full time homemaker, but there are always errands that need to be done either on the weekend or evenings (for instance, taking the kids to select and get fitted for their eye glasses, or really anything involving the older children who are in school until 4). Cleaning is ongoing, especially after every meal, not to mention that I am not of the mindset that it's 100% my job simply because I SAH. My husband is home every evening and every weekend, creating messes, laundry, dishes, etc. He can and should contribute, although I absolutely do the vast majority of our housework.

As for pooping, clearly you're not the stereotypical male that spends 30 min a day on the crapper. My husband is. I wish I were joking.

I don't understand where you are seeing "multitasking away" the children. Family commitment time is where your husband needs to spend 15 hours a week meeting your emotional need for family commitment. Clearly you have a very high emotional need for family commitment, so this should be a big priority.

13years, You H doesn't get the program and is twisting Dr Harley's principles (twisting meaning misunderstanding them) to get his own selfish ways. In a caring marriage a partner would want to eliminate anything that caused their partner to lose their love for them. Watching porn (which is what he's watching), vulgar TV shows is a very dramatic annoying habit that your H needs to eliminate. We would categorize his behavior as a selfish demand. "I don't care if this bothers you, I like it and you should just get over it.". That is not MB. That is the opposite of MB.

It comes down to what works, and what doesn't.
Dr. Harley has found that it takes 25 hours a week to fall in love, and 15 hours a week to maintain that romantic love.

I do not "multitask" my children away. I have a better relationship with them now than I had back when my marriage was bad. How rude.

I think you need to decide what you want to do. If you want to follow this program, we can guide you through it. But my time is precious to me -- I don't have a lot of time to stand around while someone I'm trying to help calls me hypocritical. I love to try to help people have a better marriage, but if you're just going to resort to name-calling, then I think I'm wasting my time.

Right, MB solves this with the policy of joint agreement which in this case would require that your husband not engage in this behavior because you are not enthusiastic about it.

Is your husband on board with doing the program, including the policy of joint agreement?

It is, and none of this program is going to work if he hangs onto independent behavior like this. Any area that a couple carves out as an exemption to the policy of joint agreement will wreck a marriage.

I didn't say a word about your relationship with your kids, prisca, nor would I. And response I used "hypocritical" in was to markos, not you. Even then, I wasn't calling Markos a hypocrite, if anything I'm questioning if this MB policy is hypocritical. Eating dinner counts as quality time with my kids but not my spouse. It sounds like my husband need 25 hours alone with each other but my kids should be content to just always be a part of the hustle and bustle, existing as part of a whole.

Yes, I do. I got little to no attention as a child, and absolutely never one on one time, and I don't want to do that to my kids.

As for the multitasking comment, it just feels like everyone is saying whenever the kids are around, it's quality time spent with them, regardless if you're doing basic life upkeep like brushing teeth or doing dishes. They don't need ANY individualized or focused attention, but our marriage needs 25 hours a week.

I can't find where anyone said that. Who said that?

Most people seem to feel that family meals are important; Dr. Harley doesn't stand out of the mainstream here in suggesting them as quality family time. Is that what you meant by "multitasking"?

Likewise for church.


Our 8 kids get 15 hours of focused attention as a group per week and they are shaping up to be fantastic kids if I do say so myself.

Saturday I was able to take 7 kids aged 2-11 out to see Star Wars together and they behaved like perfect angels (except the 2 yo the last 30 minutes). That's not quality family time but I mention it to say they seem to be learning how to behave decently and they are very happy and well adjusted.

By the way, our oldest five children have all come to Christ in the last 2 years.

How sure are you about this individualized attention thing?

I guess I wouldn't have such a hard time with it if the 25 hours a week were spent meeting all of our emotional needs in general, but they're only for the intimate emotional needs. Helping around the house, spending time with the kids, being a great dad, tackling projects around our home, getting involved in homework-- these all meet my emotional needs, but they don't count towards this 25 hour threshold. Even though they are high on my emotional needs priority list, this policy basically says that I have to take what is super important to me and just jam it in with everything else like cleaning up after dinner and bathtime, but still squeeze in the 25 hours a week.

I'm not sure why you mention this, except that you and Prisca keep taking everything I say as some sort of indictment of your parenting. It's not. I don't know your life. I don't know your kids, I don't know you. Nothing I have said or will say is about being critical of how you do things. I'm sure you're wonderful parents and that your children are great.

Having said that, many parenting experts, and research in the field, suggest that individualized attention actually is very important. If you are making it work without it, I am not judging you. I promise I am not judging you.

Okay, so markos and I aren't hypocritical (he's my husband, btw. What you say to him, you say to me. We are one), but the program we follow is hypocritical ...?

The program doesn't teach to "multi-task children away." It does treat the marriage relationship differently than it treats the parent/child relationship. I don't see how that is hypocritical, seeing as how a husband/wife relationship IS different than a parent/child relationship.

It also doesn't teach to just take your kids and jam them into cleaning up after dinner ... nobody has said that. Wouldn't work for me, considering I also have a VERY HIGH emotional need for family commitment.

You get FIFTEEN HOURS to commit to meeting the need for family committment. Considering that UA is divided into meeting four emotional needs all at once, you actually get MORE time for family commitment. How is that "jamming" the kids into cleaning?

Anyway, nobody is forcing you to do it. I think you'd have a great life if both you and your husband decided to commit yourself to UA and family commitment, but nobody here is forcing you. It's up to you what you want to do.

How sure are you that those experts actually know what they are talking about? I'd call Dr. Harley an expert, and his recommendations seem to be working great for our children.

I promise I'm not feeling judged, I really want to submit to you the idea that you don't need to do what those experts are recommending.

I think the real problem here is you have a husband who isn't on board, and you are trying to figure all this out for him when it is really his job to figure it out, and if he doesn't, you're not going to be happy and your marriage is not going to work.

I didn't see an answer to this question I asked:

When I was trying to actually do the math before and asking how EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE fits into 10 hours a week, I was told, oh mealtime (presumably preparing the meal, eating the meal, and cleaning up from meal-- not just sitting down to eat together) counts as family commitment. So does bedtime (which is more than just reading bedtime stories, it's baths, teeth brushing, jammies, etc). Odd because domestic support is its own thing-- if the 15 hours FC time he recommends is also for DS, why didn't dr h say that like he did for the UA??

Honestly I cannot believe I'm the only person who doesn't see that you guys are playing some funny accounting. PA is an important emotional need, but with this schedule there's no time for exercise. DS is one of my top needs but there's basically no time for anything but survival if you only have 10 hours a week.

It's hard with him, because in THEORY he will agree to anything. If it's all hypothetical, he's the easiest going guy around. In fact, that's one of the biggest issues we have with the faith/no faith issue. When we sit down and talk about it, he says I DO want to be religious, I DO want to take the kids to church and teach them about God. But then every sunday it's a battle. He has a new reason he wants to stay home (I have the sniffles, i didnt get enough sleep, our toddler will misbehave, Ill just keep him home-- seriously he never runs out of reasons) or he will leave in the middle of church and go sit in the car. He won't tell the kids that he's lost faith, and doesn't want me to tell them either.

The same with most things. If I have a calm conversation with him about media, he's like, yeah I shouldnt be watching it, I don't want my boys to watch this kind of thing, but then when I say something when he IS watching it, it's, "Oh this one scene isn't so bad. You saw her nipples?! I didn't notice!! The rest of the show has been good." Blah blah blah

I think it will be the same with MB. Yesterday he was on board, but then when the kids went to bed, he just walked up to bed alone and watched TV for an hour before going to sleep.

If it's just hypothetical, he will move heaven and earth for me. Hahaha

I can't tell you how many topless scenes I have caught him watching (in like major movies and TV shows, not actual porn) and he's always like, "oh i forgot that was in this movie. Thats the only one." or "it's 5 seconds of a 2 hour movie, I'm supposed to not watch the movies I like!?" or "I swear I've watched this whole series and that has NEVER happened before!!" At one point he told me that he doesn't understand my problem with it. At other points he's said he knows he shouldn't watch it. I don't even know how he feels about it deep down.

The swearing in movies and TV shows is an issue because he ALWAYS swears, especially when he's mad. The kids and I HATE it. One of our kids got in trouble for calling someone a B at school and told me that he has trouble not swearing in his head. My husband feels it doesn't matter if he watches stuff with lots swearing or really crude jokes (like certain TV shows or comedians).

13years,Be analytical here. Sarcasm does not help solve problems or open your creativity.
Eating dinner with your husband can count if you are alone together having a pleasant time. Exercising together can count.


Start by finding 15 hours a week (theoretically) to spend pleasantly alone with your husband for intimate needs- undivided conversation and recreating and sex. Once you do that step you can find another 10 hrs much more readily than from where you are now. And once you are available you can see if he will join you or not.
The harsh reality is your lifestyle is going to change either because you choose to do so to create a better marriage or because you have to divorce. I'm pretty sure the experts agree on how taxing divorce is on kids. Have you thought about how much harder and mismatched this is after a divorce? You've simply got to grasp this by the horns and figure out what to change.


I understand the frustrations you face. Mine were similar. I was homeschooling, working part time, barely able to keep up with bills and yes, working until falling into bed exhausted while others had 30-60 minutes on the toilet and time for tv shows.

I now work 40-50 hrs a week, still homeschool my four kids, still keep up with laundry,cooking, and housework. I changed how I run my household, but it's not worse. Math is wonderfully inflexible and I can't exactly explain WHY it goes better with less time on the house, but it does. I still go to all the appointments, and run all the errands. We still go to church and Awana. But I also have more down time, more money. I rarely work past 8 pm. I go out on dates with my husband two nights a week and occasionally on Saturdays.

UA time does not solve all marriage problems, but you've got to try it and give yourself and your family the chance of an intact marriage. If other problems stand in the way of a good marriage you will still need the lifestyle changes and the peace a different schedule will bring you as an individual.

What did you do to spend time together when you were dating?
Did you go to the same church you do now?

Thank you for the encouragement. That sounds do-able. I am confident I can squeeze out 15 hours. Maybe doing that will help me see how / feel motivated to find the other 10. I do appreciate your insight very much.

Oh gosh. What did we do when we were dating? We have such a sad courtship story. We didn't do anything. We didn't really talk or bond or get to know each other. He was looking for someone to help him get out of his addictions and out of his living arrangements which were feeding his drug and alcohol problems. I was having some sort of emotional crisis which I still can't even explain to this day-- but I think I was scared of him rejecting me so I held on even though there were ENORMOUS red flags that he woundn't be a good partner. He did NOTHING to fill my love bank, and in fact pretty openly took advantage of me by lying to me and ignoring me. Yet I married him less than 6 months after we met. I don't know why. He's not nearly as bad as he was then, but I still feel like he's not fully invested in our family or marriage.

I wasn't going to church at that time, but I did prior to that and began going again about 5 years into our marriage. My husband had a VERY brief period where he had some spiritual experiences and he wanted to do the whole church thing. It was VERY short lived, I think in part because it didn't solve all his other problems so he decided what's the point.

He doesn't, and neither do we. You are twisting words and fighting instead of listening.


Okay.

Is there anything you would like help with? Or are you just here to argue?

Dr. Harley recommends four dates, 3-4 hours long each week, outside the house.

You'll need to stop the disrespectful judgments if you want him to get on board. They are a lovebuster.

It's okay if he thinks that. You don't have to prove him wrong, or convince him of what's right -- to do so would be disrespectul. The question is, will he stop if it bothers you.

Has he agreed to live by the policy of joint agreement?

Agreed. That is a problem I have, in all seriousness. But to be fair, he has admitted this and sometimes even jokes about it. For example,

Me: Will you take the trash to the curb?
H: Are we talking hypothetically, at a time yet to be determined, or like, for real right now?

Why can't it be both?

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, it really doesn't make sense to me.

4 hour date nights per week--- hmmmmm. There's exactly 4 hours from when he gets home from work to when he wants to be in bed to get 8 hours of sleep. Leaving my kids on their own twice a week on school nights is not going to happen. Additionally, my kids get out of school at 4, and often don't even have their homework done by 5. How would that work?? I would love to hear (specifically) how others with young children do that. (we have zero family in the area, fyi)

So you are married to a pleaser. They are far harder to negotiate with because they always want to agree. You have to make negotiating more fun. Tell him that he can revisit an agreement at any time but that Sunday battles make you miserable, you need a negotiation ahead of time so that there is no surprise.

Important to keep throwing out ideas until you settle on something that works 100% for both of you. You will be amazed, the solution when it comes will be far better than anything you thought of alone.

It doesn't matter. When you say it, it is a disrespectful judgement and you withdraw love units from his lovebank. He will be less motivated to change anything for you.

Scheduling.
You start by scheduling UA.
Then you schedule Family Commitment time.
Then you schedule everything else.

We can't make the schedule for you. You will have to do that yourself -- you and your husband.

You do this every week, together. Dr. Harley suggests Sunday afternoon.

I must agree with Prisca that it can be done. It seems impossible when you have a 15 year habit of not putting your marriage first. Hey, one of my kids is disabled and still in diapers at school age - childcare is not quite easy, yet, you make a habit of priorities. I see your youngest is 5 and your oldest is old enough to babysit!

I was asking about other people's schedule, not mine.

And Dr. H says 2-3 hours per day, not 4 4-hour dates.

Youngest is 3.

Then tell me how it's done. We do have my oldest babysit for our dates on the weekends. School nights are a different beast.

No, he has recommended 4 - 4 hour dates for years. He suggests sitting down every Sunday afternoon and planning out your schedule using this worksheet: UA worksheet

Just a suggestion, I would lose the snotty attitude. People don't have to help you here. You have some of the absolute best posters taking their own person time to help you. Prisca, for example, has 8 children, a happy marriage and has been in the program for years. She has been through Dr Harley's program and listened to hundreds of hours of his radio show. If I were in your shoes, I would want her and alis helping me because they are experienced and are educated in the MB program. If you are serious about improving your marriage, you might want to avoid running them off.

The Four Rules
for a Successful Marriage
The Rule of Time:

Take Time to Give Your Spouse Your Undivided Attention

The Rule of Time unlocks the door to the other three rules. Without time you will not be able to meet each other's emotional needs nor will you be able to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness. Time is also a basic requirement for honesty. Time for undivided attention is the necessary ingredient for everything that's important in marriage.

And yet, as soon as most couples marry, and especially when children arrive, couples usually replace their time together with activities of lesser importance. You probably did the same thing. You tried to meet each other's needs with time "left over," but sadly, there wasn't much time left over. Your lack of private time together may have become a great cause of unhappiness, and yet you felt incapable of preventing it. You may have also found yourself bottling up your honest expression of feelings because there was just no appropriate time to talk.

Schedule your time to be alone with each other as your highest priority -- that way it will never be replaced by activities of lesser value. Your career, your time with your children, maintenance of your home, and a host of other demands will all compete for your time together. But if you follow the Rule of Time, you will not let anything steal from those precious and crucial hours together.

I suggest that you (a) spend time away from children and friends whenever you give each other your undivided attention; (b) use the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship,and sexual fulfillment; and (c) schedule at least fifteen hours together each week. When you were dating, you gave each other this kind of attention and you fell in love. When people have affairs, they also give each other this kind of attention to keep their love for each other alive. Why should courtship and affairs be the only times love is created? Why can't it happen in marriage as well? It can, if you set aside time every week to give each other undivided attention.

One of the best ways to give each other the undivided attention that you gave when you were dating is to go back to dating again. Four 4-hour dates a week would just about guarantee the building of Love Bank balances that you created during courtship. Use each 4-hour date to be affectionate, talk intimately to each other, do something fun together, and make love. It's the formula for every romantic relationship. here

You hire a babysitter that is capable of supervising homework and all of the other stuff that goes with school nights.
When we started we were barely making ends meet. We have no family. I've still not found anyone to trade or co-op babysitting with, all our friends DO have family mostly TWO sets of grandparents fighting to give free babysitting. There was no money for a babysitter. I was so frustrated with trying to figure out how to have a babysitter let alone pay for other date activities. But kept analyzing and changing things up.
Now the schedule and life has changed to accommodate two regular date nights. Still working on a regular third date a week.

And if he only has 4 hrs you go out for 3 hrs, come home and have sex and go to bed. Total of 4 hrs. And then make your weekend dates 4 hrs out plus the intimacy at home.

PS. We never really dated before marriage either. Arranged marriage basically. So you learn to be a great date partner and learn to have fun. Put effort into looking nice and finding out what you like to do together, what you like to talk about (kids and faith off limits during dates), where you like to go.

Okay, you are going to need to get him to agree to some accountability or he is going to drive you nuts.

If I were in your shoes I would tell him this:
"I can't live with you watching these TV shows any more. It just hurts too much. I married you for life, but that was with the expectation that we were going to have a marriage of caring for each other and to me that means never doing anything that hurts each other. If you can't agree to that, then I can't continue to let you hurt me like this."

(Notice that there's nothing in there disrespectful or judgmental. Nothing that says what he is watching is wrong or immoral or whatever - just the fact that it hurts you. It's all about how it makes you feel, because that is THE MOST important issue. That's what's wrong with watching porn: it hurts wives.)

If he doesn't agree to start living this way, you start preparing for a separation. If he does agree but doesn't change anything, you start preparing for a separation. If he agrees and keeps his agreement, then great, you move on to the next issue and start discussing that, until you are both living the whole program, all of it based on the fact that you need him to live this way because it hurts too much if he does not.

Let me assure you that if I were a married woman in your situation that is exactly what I would do. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Prisca is exactly the same way.

But if that seems too strong for you I have two alternative suggestions. The first one is free: contact Dr. Harley at his radio show at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and see if he can help you get your husband to agree to stop doing anything you are not enthusiastic about. The second one is paid: sign up for the coaching and accountability program and see if Dr. Harley and his coaches can help get your husband to agree. Either way if your husband doesn't cooperate or doesn't cooperate for long, I would encourage you to start preparing for a separation, because it is better to separate sooner while you are feeling better and still willing to make your marriage work than it is to drag things out until you are so hurt that you cannot stand your husband and never want to see him again.

I don't intentionally have a snotty attitude, but it does seem like you guys can be a little more extremist than Dr. H himself. For example, I listened to one show where the woman described struggling with the 15 hours of UA and he said it was fine to do them at home after the kids are in bed if you needed to, and encouraged her to get creative. I've seen it said on the boards that that's not acceptable, it must be out of the house and needs to be 4 4-hour dates. If he doesn't want it to be 2-3 hours a day, or if it's so important to do 4 4 hour dates, why isn't that reflected on his online materials, most especially from the MAIN page about the POUA:


In fact, I've never heard him be as rigid as some of the recommendations here. I find it highly unusual that other parents think that it's so simple to hire a babysitter to handle homework, dinner, AND bedtime for 4 children, especially on a regular basis. Maybe a grandmother, or something, but I babysat for YEARS and never once was asked to do all that, and wouldn't feel comfortable asking that of a sitter.

When I've listened to his show, if someone has an obstacle, he actually seemed empathetic, and acknowledged that some situations do present actual, real obstacles, not everything is an excuse to get out of it.

To be clear, many of these suggestions and feedback have been SUPER helpful and I'm so grateful. Especially seeing how MB principles fit into our specific struggles. Thank you, each one of you, for taking time from your lives to respond. I truly appreciate it!!

Thank you, that gives me hope. And he described this as an arranged marriage yesterday. We have to learn to love each other. Good to know we're not alone.

I babysat too from age 14-23 and I was always asked to do homework, dinner, bedtime and then clean the house after the kids were in bed. This is why I do not find it unusual to look for a qualified person to do this for me at this point in my life. Of course it costs more than it did years ago. senior high schoolers, college students, and older women are often up to the task.
Some of my babysitters are younger and cheaper. I use them when I only expect basic safety care.

I have. I've argued with him till I was blue in the face over whether or not UA could be at home (I'm a homebody). It is Dr. Harley who insists that UA be out of the home, not me.

The main reason is because it is near impossible to get husbands to give their wives the attention they need when they are home. It's not going to work, 13years. People try to fudge on this step, over and over again, and it doesn't work. If you have a husband who won't even agree to do the policy of joint agreement, you most definitely cannot cut corners.

If your marriage is going to turn around and become one filled with romance, your husband needs to take you out on dates. That's how it's done. He's not going to do what it takes at home.

I also did babysitting for many years and homework, dinner, bedtime and cleaning were all part of my job.

But I showed you a direct quote from Dr Harley about the 4 hours. Did you read it? He also states this on his radio show all the time. He instructed those of us who went through his online program to do this. Most of us posting to you know Dr Harley and have listened to thousands of hours of his radio shows.


It's because you are not familiar with his works and are grasping onto any loopholes.. We are familiar with his works.

You should also understand that Dr Harley supervises this forum and if a poster gives advice that is contradictory to his, the post is removed by the moderators. So, if you feel you are getting incorrect advice, simply hit "notify" and the moderators will check it to make sure it is correct advice.

Hopefully, you will stop arguing and start listening because you are not going to brawl your way to a happy marriage, let me assure you. Folks will stop posting to you if you don't knock it off. We are all volunteers who have families, careers, busy lives who are just paying it forward. No one has to help you.

Wait why did a comment from someone disappear? What was wrong with it?

I will just say that I disagree with this and it has not been my experience either as a babysitter nor as someone who hires babysitters (and chats with other moms about hiring babysitters). If you've got babysitters like that, lucky you!! (for real, not snarky)

Keep looking for babysitters that will do all that then.Or not. Don't expect pity or to get off the hook though. Several of us have been in your shoes and found solutions.it's been one day and a lot of talking. Try to do something about it now.

If you want to know how to get this done, I'm trying to help. If you want to disagree don't reply back.

Ask for recommendations at local churches and mom groups. Especially through churches you find older women who are happy for this kind of work and some extra money. Dual housekeeping-childcare pays 7.50-12 an hour in my area.

I read it and I replied with a quote from the MAIN PAGE of POUA from his website. Literally, if you go to the marriage builders website and you click on BASIC CONCEPTS and then on POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION, it says "I suggest" 2-3 hours per day. Is the "I" not Dr. H??


I am not questioning whether you guys are just making stuff up. If you say he's said it, I believe you. My question seems like common sense, if his new position is the end all be all of what he advises and he himself sees this as hard and fast rule, why hasn't he updated his materials to reflect that?


I am sorry I have come across as an argumentative contrarian, it is not my intention, and I regret making this impression. I am just being honest in my reactions to what you're saying. If I've been rude, I apologize. I sometimes use sarcasm to lighten the mood, but I'm sorry if it's come across as an attitude.

I read through TONS of threads yesterday about UA. Honestly, upwards of 20 - 30 threads. One in particular had many links to MB radio, I can't find which one because there are so many in my history, but I listened to one regarding young kids where he did say you can do it at home after kids are in bed. I'm not lying about that either.

I know which one you're talking about, because I've heard it and used to use it to defend my position that it didn't matter if you had UA at home.

In all his shows, Dr. Harley has said that ONCE, to ONE couple.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK.

In order for UA to work at home, you must:
1. Have a husband that is more dedicated to making your marriage work than you are
2. Be completely free of distractions
3. Put MORE effort into dressing up and making it special than if you were to go out
4. Not fall into the trap of sitting on opposite sides of the couch eating TV dinners, browsing the internet, and watching TV and THEN calling it UA

VERY FEW couples will do all that. It doesn't work. You are pulling out on radio show where he told one person she could do that, and you are using it as a loophole to ignore everything else Dr. Harley says about UA.

I just did a search in my city's local mom's Facebook page to see what people have responded when people ask about babysitting. $12-15 per hour is average for what I see, and that's based on 2 kids, not 4. Can you post photos here? I'm happy to post screenshots if you don't believe me.

I don't know why I can't disagree with what you guys say about even the most general topics, like typical babysitting responsibilities. This isn't a MB concept, people, you're not the experts on it. I have been a mother for 13 years and have many, many mommy friends, and was a babysitter myself for years as a teen and even early in motherhood. My experience on this topic is no less valid than yours.

LITERALLY, if you read the quote I posted, he says FOUR - 4 hour dates. That is Dr. Harley's QUOTE. He says this all the time on his radio show. He taught this principle to many of us on this thread when we attended his seminar. He has replaced his older advice with FOUR - 4 hour dates.


He often does when we point it out to him. We have explained to him how people look for each and every loophole in his material and then he changes it.

I'm not pulling it out, it's not like I listened to 10,000 hours of radio show to find the one 30 second clip where he said it. I was browsing the forum for posts about UA and one linked to the segment where he gave this advice.

Maybe I don't understand how this works. HE gave that advice on HIS radio show, but you guys get to say that that advice was wrong and doesn't work?

Being "honest" is a poor excuse for brawling with volunteers on this board. You ARE argumentative and rude and have been told that many times by many people. The moderators will probably lock your thread if you don't stop it.

I guess I don't see how his own material is a loophole.

13year, my wife has personally spoken to Dr. Harley on the phone about this apparent contradiction in his materials. Do you want to hear what she has to say about it or not? If so, please just reread it because she has already posted it to you in this post you are quoting.

A warning that this thread will be locked if the arguing and debating does not stop. The purpose of this forum is to help posters find solutions to their marriage problems. It is not a debate society.

I don't think you understand what my wife means by "pulling it out." Please go back and reread her post and respond to some other part of it; you are missing what she is telling you.

Please pay attention to this. You need to see this. This is more important than UA.

I just reread and your wife didn't mention anything about Dr. H acknowledging or addressing a contradiction in his materials, either officially or to her.

Good point, thanks.

Would you say any of this is true for you and your husband?

The reason we are such hardliners on this board is that almost 100% of the time when people come to this board they are in situations where corners cannot be cut and they need someone to help them rigorously apply the program with no exceptions or they are not going to make it.

The people who just read the program and do it and it works for them and they might be able to afford an exception here and there are not the people who come to this board looking for help.

You have a serious reason why doing things differently won't work for you, and my wife has posted it to you, and I have tried to post about it but haven't seen you answer. I think if you want things to get better in your marriage you are going to have to face that issue.

You're right. The problem is like the previous poster mentioned, he agrees to everything. He doesn't like conflict, so he will say whatever the other person wants to hear in the moment. We did marriage counseling once (not MB), and they would give homework and he would always agree to do whatever it was, but then not do it.

An ultimatum scares me. I know that has the potential to bring about the change that would make BOTH of us happy, but there's a part of me that feels like I really would rather deal with the status quo than actually break up my family....

1. Nope
2. I think it's possible, especially if we agreed to put away devices.
3. If I'm being honest, this is something I need to work on whether we go out or stay in. I haven't "let myself go" entirely but I am definitely overly casual (sweatpants even when we go out) and don't make as much effort as I should. I still like shower every day and put on makeup and I don't wear like dirty clothes or anything, but I don't try to be cute. He's good about not making me feel bad about this but I know he would like it if I made more effort. The truth is that I have put on about 15 lbs in the last couple of years and I feel really bad about it and somehow trying to be cute makes me feel worse rather than better. I need to get serious about losing that weight, too, among the other things I need to get serious about.
4. I think I am 100% clear and in agreement with this point. It's a LB for me that he goes to bed to watch TV every night instead of interacting with me.

That makes total sense. I know it seems to you guys like I'm looking for loopholes, but the truth is that this is THE SCARIEST part about this program. I FEEL like I can do the rest. I see the wisdom in all of it. I agree that AO have absolutely NO PLACE in a healthy marriage and it is my goal to 100% eliminate that from how I interact with my family, even though I know that will be super hard to do. I believe I can do it. The same with POJA. I can do it, even when it's hard. The time doesn't just seem hard, it seems impossible. And I don't know what good it would do for me to say, I see how I can do that when I don't. BUT I WANT TO!

What you don't realize is that eliminating lovebusters is necessary, but you won't have love in the first place without creating it. UA time is for creating and maintaining it.

Just because you can't see HOW to do this, doesn't mean that reality shifts to accommodate you. You must create a new structure little by little, by putting your priorities in order.

Just because you are incredulous doesn't mean that it doesn't work. You start solving your problems one by one. And I would suggest that you focus on the program itself, listening to the radio show,and getting help here if needed. People who argue are wasting their time when they could be brainstorming for creative solutions. You have paid for the materials, so roll up your sleeves and start thinking Of The craziest ideas for how you COULD make it happen.

When do you start the program?

UA time is best spent outside the home. But you mentioned he leaves before the rest of you get up in the morning. (I'm guessing that's why he wants to go to bed at 9:00) How early does he leave? Would be realistic for you to get up when he does and spend some time having a cup of coffee and/or breakfast together before the kids get up?

I know you can't be the one to put ALL the effort into this, but it seems like a nice opportunity for quality time together - with no vulgar TV shows on or him being wiped out from work and just wanting to veg and tune out.

Totally fair statements.

Actually, we aren't understanding how this works after we paid for it... I know part of the program is coming in the mail, but part of it is online, right? They haven't told us how to access that... We paid yesterday....

He leaves around 5:30 or 6, just depending on his work day. But he just wakes up with enough time to get ready and leave. He doesn't even eat here, they provide food at his work. I doubt he'd want to get up even earlier than he does, but I can certainly ask him if that appeals to him.

So maybe start with this-

Figure out when you are going to do the INITIAL online seminar. You will need a huge chunk of time for it to have the best impact.

Of course it's a busy time of the year, but can the kids get shipped off to grandma's during a weekend of the holiday break, or hubby take off a day? The education is more impact full if you can focus on it. Imagine going to a marriage retreat, but at home. Is this a possibility?

Or, could you have a young couple from church come stay with the kids and you guys find an affordable local hotel?

The reason that I suggest this, is that you want the time and environment where Dr. Harley's points can sink in. It was very impactful for us, and very foreign for my husband.

You will also need time to figure out how to rework your weekly schedule, with the highest importance on your planning session, UA time, and lesson time.

Please keep in mind that you will have to reprioritize your husband over time with the kids. He is not getting his needs met right now either.

I edited the previous post to be more clear. Sorry for the confusion.

Then you are in no position to be having UA at home.

UA seems incredibly scary to a woman whose husband isn't on board with the program and who is still engaging in love busters.

Okay, don't let go of this. I think you need to pick one of the suggestions I made there or nothing is ever going to move forward.

I don't know that we could afford a hotel, and we don't have any family here, but he does have some days off for the holidays and I do think we could dedicate a day to this. The older kids want us to work on our marriage, so I think they would be willing to help us by watching the little kids for the day. They're great babysitters as long as they don't have to do bedtime or be responsible for much besides the basics.

You don't feel like it will be enough to work on the home study program?

I had a feeling he left pretty early.

How far away does he work? Is there any way you could do lunch dates? (I'm probably dreaming, but if they feed him at work, maybe the have on-site daycare too...) If it's logistically realistic, you might even take a homemade lunch in to him to save money over the cost of eating out.

Regarding the online course, we ordered it and my H ultimately would not do it, but I recall that getting started, there were videos that we could watch from the computer. My H somehow was able to have them appear on the TV. The part's we did watch were really good/helpful.

I just want to make an important point and that is that UA time doesn't count [because it is ineffective] unless done in 2-4 hour blocks. This is why Dr Harley recommends 4 hour "events." Getting bits and pieces here and there don't add up to effectiveness. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2396652#Post2396652

I say this because there have been couples on this forum - always in bad marriages - who counted things like passing in the hall, phone calls, etc. In other words, they changed nothing but just cleverly counted every passing moment so they could check the box.

It sounds like some training/incentives are in order. Otherwise you'll need to import babysitters.

He works about 30 min away, or so. But he doesn't have set lunch time, it varies every day, and without disclosing too many personal details, it's not somewhere I'd be permitted to go and eat with him.

We did get the login info for the course in our email today so hopefully we can start ASAP. If we had to wait a week or so to give it a full day, would you guys recommend we wait, or go ahead and get started after the kids are in bed tonight?

Thanks for the link, I read the article. This is why we went with MB over every other marriage program out there, because these concepts do resonate with us. I KNOW that I would want sex if our marriage was good. I am not, despite some of my husband's AO where he's called me so, asexual. I do think that if we put the time into making our marriage great, our sex life would be also.

Last night my husband was kind of obsessing over the sex thing again and the fact that I got advice to hold off on sex until I actually want to have it. What IF we do all this and you still don't want sex? What IF you just have a low sex drive? What IF your ideal for enough sex is once a month and mine is twice a week? Why is it ok for you not to have sex when you don't want to but it's not ok for me do pick and choose? Can I just pick one of your EN that I don't have to meet until we have SF??

I basically told him I don't think we should be worried about what ifs before we've even tried the program and that Dr. H said that in 90% of cases, healing the marriage brings a satisfying sex life.

I think I understand and in agreement with the types of activities that would count vs ones that wouldn't. Discussing a favorite TV show would count, but watching it next to each other wouldn't. Basically it needs to be where you're completely focused on each other, not other people or other things. That's not hard for me to understand because I do WANT that kind of time together and it makes sense to me that marriage without it will suffer.

The part I've been having a hard time with is 4 hour chunks outside the home 4 times a week (or 6 times for a marriage not in love then??). Still struggling with that one.

I can see why you'd say that, but 3 is a really hard age. All of my kids have been very difficult at 3. I've always said there's no such thing as terrible 2s, it should be called terrible 3s. Bedtime is very difficult for ME as the mom, and my 3 year old often doesn't want to cooperate with ME, so I know it would be unfair to expect my 13 and 11 year olds to do it, especially more than half the week. The 5 year old will often also feed off the 3 year old's defiance.

This is what I mean, I truly do not understand the concept of having other people handle homework, dinner, and bedtime 40% of school nights and 100% of weekend nights, overall nearly 60% of evenings in my home should be outsourced.

Let me state again: this is not an argument or being argumentative. I just don't get how I can be asked to do this.

I saw another thread while researching UA where people were telling writer1 to post flyers in her apartment complex to find someone to babysit her toddler. I just feel that is terrible advice and I would never feel comfortable doing that. I would never leave my child, especially one that young, with someone I found that way Heck, it's a risk even when you DO know someone well. We had a teen in our extended family molesting younger kids. It was incredibly traumatizing for the whole family and has made me very cautious.

You are being argumentative when you've been told OVER and OVER this is a key component to the program. That's what Dr Harley and posters who've had success with MB have found.

Others have found a way to make it happen.

It's up to you and your H to brainstorm and figure out a solution. Complaining about it again and again isn't helping. If anything, you are going to start alienating posters from wanting to help you.

Nobody has advocated that you don't properly vet any babysitter that you are going to leave your kids with. That's YOUR responsibility and your husband's. Not the forum's.

A. I am not arguing with whether or not it is a tenant of the program. I am not even complaining about it. I have stated OVER and OVER and OVER that I do not understand how to make it reality. I have tried to explain that it feels like you're asking me to grow a third arm, I wouldn't even know how to begin, and you saying, but OTHERS grew a third arm isn't useful.
**EDIT**

What others are saying is that you and your Husband need to come up with a schedule and get Creative. Have you discussed this with your husband?
UA time with kids

I understand. But what I'm asking for is not what you linked to. The examples in that thread are what people did on their dates and which days they did them for how many hours. What I mean is how do you handle the logistics of leaving your children for 25 hours a week in 4 chunks. Someone suggested getting a babysitter to come to my home after my children are out of school and do homework with them and make dinner for them and put them to bed multiple nights a week. She didn't say this is what SHE does, so what does she do?? It looks like on that thread Prisca said she uses the gym and her mom primarily for her UA time. That's actually a helpful suggestion, although I don't have family near us and I know the family gym in my area has a MAX 3 hour childcare limit and the gym is not an interest of either of us. So although it's not an option for me, it's still a helpful suggestion of exactly HOW someone makes it work. Even then I would love more details addressing what are clearly common concerns, though. Like, "we have time for homework before the gym and get home at 9, so my kids go to bed later than most," for example.

He just walked in the door ( he's home much later than normal tonight because he had to run a couple of errands after work) so I will talk to him tonight about this specifically.

This is our last warning that this thread will be locked if the arguing and disrespect does not stop. If you wish to get help on this forum from the volunteers, we insist you show respect or you will no longer be welcome. If you have any questions, send me an email.

Page 9 I say how I found safe, reliable, affordable babysitters.I was very frustrated like you are now. I truly understand how valid your experience is. My point is to stop spending time on disagreeing and saying can't and start searching for how you can. I did it and you can too.

I was desperate when I came here and I knew MB was my last chance for my kids to grow up in a happy, intact home. So I could not give Up and say it was impossible. Remember I don't have family to use either... did I say that? And my friends don't need to trade. They all have two sets of grandparents vying for the chance to give free babysitting all the time. It was and is frustrating that life throws us these difficult problems to solve. I couldn't afford the first babysitters I found through regular advertising. I had to try many avenues. Many. Lots dead ended, but you keep brainstorming. The best I found have not been on sites I can screenshot link. (page 9 has details.)

We did do the gym idea for a year. 2 hrs there,listen to the radio show on the road, with ear buds and a splitter then home to talk awhile and have sex. It wasn't perfect but we did it because it's what we could do then and kept looking.

Now two times a week on week nights (usually Tuesday and Friday) I come straight home from work, shower, and go straight back out of the house with my husband. We come home to kids already in bed. (Bedtime for them is 8.) Little ones are asleep, big ones are reading. House cleaned up. Depending which gal was in she's also baked and cleaned a bathroom. Baby sitter leaves, I lock up and go to bed with my husband. On Saturdays as often as possible we try to get some daytime dates 6-8 hours. My kids love our sitters. Babysitters are happy. I'm happy.
We still do some at home dates.Still looking for more ways to make more dates work. 15 hrs looked impossible. Even ONE date a week looked impossible. I get it. Just start gathering ideas and trying them out until you find what works. Start with 15. Do that every week. And then keep adjusting.

Hope that gives you help. I already understand how hard it is and how impossible it seems. Just start. And keep working at it. Eventually you will find that third arm grew after all.

Creating UA time doesn't guarantee all marriage problems disappear, it's important to recognize that. I'd agree with the other posters that coaching and an agreement to the POJA is a good idea for you and your situation.
But just the lifestyle changes in the process of problem solving this area of UA time have truly defied the impossible in my life and led to so many other personal successes.

I think you really need to follow up on one of these suggestions. I am getting the impression you reply and then this part of the thread is forgotten.

Please reread my suggestions and put one of them on your todo list. I don't think you will make any progress any other way.

Thank you, builds, for your patience with me and for your advice and insight. I am going to try and be more positive.

Small update: My husband is super enthusiastic about UA and very willing to be creative and problem solve. He also encouraged me to be more optimistic about making it happen instead of feeling like it's impossible. But he also felt like there was more wiggle room, perhaps because he hasn't read the boards. He felt like the 4 4 hour dates would totally be possible and was helping me brainstorm about that. Actually, he came up with something I hadn't considered that I think would probably work for at least those 4 4 hour dates so that was super helpful. Neither of us are sure yet how we will get to 25 hours weekly, but he was very upbeat about figuring it out.

He didn't seem to understand how legalistic this is supposed to be, because he would insist on how doable it was but then give ideas that wouldn't "count," like a 2 hour date outside the house, coming home for bedtime with the kids, and then having 2 hours at home after they were in bed. But bottom line is that he's eager to make it work and excited about "dating".

I brought up the idea of coaching, as has been recommended, and he was open to discussing it, but didn't know if we could swing it financially at this time. I wish there was like a monthly payment option, because I think we could do that.

**EDIT**

I didn't mean to ignore your suggestions. I meant to clarify that you didn't feel in our situation that the home study program would be sufficient?

So I'm clear, your suggestions are

1. Ultimatum with possible separation
2. Write the radio program to see if Dr. H can convince him directly
3. Purchase the coaching program

correct?

I would be happy to write the radio program. Does it change things for you that he was so enthusiastic about the POUA?

Without searching now for writer1's thread, I believe I made that suggestion, and I find your comment about it really rude. I was trying to help her just as people have spent hours here trying to help you, and I do not appreciate being told that my suggestion was "terrible".

Do you really think I was telling her to put up adverts, and then accept the help of a teenaged boy, or a single man? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I live in London, which is a huge and often dangerous city. At the primary school that my kids attended, people often put up posters asking for, and offering, babysitting and childminding. Nobody would have been stupid enough to accept an offer from childless people or teenaged boys. They were looking for mothers who were minding their own children, who were broke, and who would appreciate the opportunity to have a playmate for their kid while working from home, babysitting another kid. There were many mothers that had given up jobs to mind their own babies, and who were waiting for the day their kids started school and they could return to the labour market, but who, meanwhile, would be glad to earn money while their own kids were at home. That is the kind of person that I was suggesting that writer1 could look for.

My own daughter, when she was 15, developed a lucrative career babysitting. She did this by putting leaflets through the doors of people we knew from the school, with small children. They in turn knew that I had been a parent at the school for over 10 years, that I helped on the PTA, and that my kids were well brought up and lived in a clean, tidy home. They knew that I was at home, standing by to help out, should my daughter ever face an emergency with their kids that she could not cope with by herself - and that I lived only a walk away. They did not leave their kids with someone who had a high chance of turning out to be a child molester; they left them with a studious, sweet, sensible, well-mannered girl whose mother they had known on sight for years, and who was standing by at home.

When my children were very young, I knew nothing about Marriage Builders, so therefore I never sought a solution to how to get out of the house for 15 hours or more per week. However, I was in a babysitting circle that formed through our local mother and baby group, and we traded babysitting for free. We had an official system of tokens, so that anyone could trade with anyone else. I also had a childminder, as I was working part time. She picked my kids up from school, and on the odd occasion she did that, then kept them overnight, and took them to school next morning. As the kids started school they enjoyed having sleepovers with friends; sometimes they would both go to the same family, sometimes separately to different friends, and, as they got older still, the younger one would sleepover while the older one stayed at home. We were also able to use things like their gymnastics classes and Scouts meetings (both of these grew to 3 hours per session, at one stage), to go out together.

We used a whole mixture of things, but some of those won't be available to you, while you might have other things that we did not have. The point is that you need to brainstorm and explore (to the death) things that you and your husband can make work for you.

Well, of course, you don't have to do anything, but UA time is what Dr Harley prescribes for all marriages. If you absolutely cannot do UA time, your unhappy marriage will continue to be unhappy - so we suggest that you FIND A WAY.

I don't understand why the good posters here have not lost patience with you and given up entirely. Your main purpose here seems to be to argue, and to dish out the odd bit of faint praise to one poster that you find helpful, as a way of insulting all the others that have not answered to your satisfaction. (I have never even replied to you on this thread and yet I've been insulted for the advice I gave to someone else.) That is a sure way to find yourself with no help at all.

Now you're arguing about whether you're arguing? Wow.

The thread speaks for itself, you've argued about the math that Dr Harley uses, about the role of babysitters (not cleaning or helping with bedtime etc), about how it's not right to suggest babysitters in a certain manner (from another thread no less) about how the forum is too rigid, the list goes on and on. You called someone hypocritical at some point.

I find this behavior really shocking in all honesty. When I came to MB, and over the years, I was HAPPY and so grateful for any help anyone was willing to offer me, even if it was something I "had a hard time wrapping my head around." You seem to think you are entitled to help. You're not. You've been told over and over there are some things that we cannot help you with, such as figuring out the childcare.

Please stop. Enough is enough.

13yearsdown-

Bear with me here, okay? And try not to get discouraged with the feedback you are getting.

What we are calling arguing, is the habit you have of hearing our advice, and then verbalizing the obstacles you see. And then you throw a little dig the poster's way, to explain why the poster just doesn't get your impossible plight. That type of problem solving is exasperating and negative.

In order to implement a plan for a happier marriage, you have to challenge each one of your presupposed obtacles, to see if they are true obstacles, or maybe just a hurdle. If something is truly an obstacle, the move on to another idea. But spitting out the "why you can't" is a form of arguing.

When you want to be productive and constructive, ask "How can I" questions. Don't say "But I can't because" and expect us to give you help by debating you or proving your obstacle wrong. This is why you don't think you are arguing, but you really are.

If you ask your kids to do something and they tell you why they cant, then even if they have a true hurdle, they are still arguing. Wouldn't you tell them to "Please do it anyway? Find a way?

Don't say that you can't. You CAN, but you just haven't worked out the solutions yet, and you haven't shifted things around. You have set you life up revolving around the kids, not your marriage. It is very possible to change this. But it will never be different if you are unwilling to let go of good things to implement something better. You are unhappy!! What you are doing can't be that good. Good, better, best.

Ask questions, don't respond with bstacles. Mention your hurdles. Ask for help with overcoming hurdles. Appreciate the suggestions and be willing to try them out.

Am I reaching you?

13years,

The feedback people are giving you here in how you interact with others is valuable, if you will take a deep breath and listen. You have spoken to nearly everybody on this thread with disrespect and hostility.

I suspect, since you do not seem aware that you are doing this, that you also treat your husband this way.

Here's a challenge, and I hope you will accept it: your relationship with your husband is far more important than your relationship with us. BUT, use this forum as an opportunity to discuss problems WITHOUT disrespect or sarcasm. Practice here, and accept feedback when people tell you that you are slipping.

Disrespectful Judgements are a difficult lovebuster to overcome, because most of us have a hard time seeing them in ourselves. You've got a great opportunity to learn here.

I am interested in learning. I actually do agree with Prisca that DJ are a problem for me in my marriage. They are not, generally, anything I struggle with in any other relationships, including online. I don't belong to any other forums, but I use social media and other websites regularly. But if I am doing that, I would like to stop and turn things around in this forum.

Can you help me understand what I have said here that is a DJ? I can see how "terrible advice" was probably one. If I had said "unsafe advice," would that have made it not a DJ?

Was calling me rude, disrespectful, and saying I had a snotty attitude a DJ? If not, why not?

See, this isn't seeking advice. This is using an innocent tone, under the guise of appearing to ask a genuine question, with the intention of repeating the insult you made before.

It wasn't terrible advice, and neither was it unsafe advice, because I wasn't telling the poster to let anyone and everyone look after her kid, without using any element of judgement. I spent quite some time composing that post, explaining how advertising for childcare could be done responsibly. However, my effort was wasted on you. I don't think it was worth my time.

A Disrespectful Judgement places a negative value judgement on someone else. There is no difference between calling Sugarcane's advice "terrible" or "unsafe."

Since you claim to use sarcasm to "lighten the mood," I have a hard time believing this. Sarcasm is a Disrespectful Judgement. And, as you can see by how people have reacted to you on this thread, it isn't well received. It doesn't lighten the mood. It makes people want to avoid you.

My last post was sincere. I don't know what else to say.

What I would suggest is that you take a day to calm down. When you come back, come back with an open mind and a willingness to practice these things:

1. Listen to ideas without mocking them.
2. Don't hyperbolize.
3. Don't lecture or "straighten out."
4. Don't place a negative value judgement on someone else's idea; you may not like the idea, and it may not work for you, but don't devalue it (such as calling it "unsafe" or "terrible" or "hypocritical" or "multi-tasking away"). That person's beliefs are simply different than your own.

These are skills you will need in your marriage. Practice them here.

A major problem has been that when people make suggestions for things you might do, they give them as examples. They are trying to show you how brainstorming will eventually provide a shortlist of potential solutions, out of which you and your husband could then pick one or two.

They are not necessarily holding your hand and saying "do this: literally, this". They are brainstorming. Possibly something they have suggested will be the right thing for you, but if not, you should at least get the idea that there are lots of potential solutions to explore, and that if you and your husband put your heads together, you will come up with something, sooner rather than later.

We are not saying that any specific solution is the answer to your specific case. We do not know you, or your children and what will work for them, or your neighbourhood and what sources of help are available. You DO know these things, so we are throwing out ideas to encourage you to get thinking.

The same thing was being done for the poster writer1 on her thread, which I have just re-read. If you read that thread from beginning to end you will see suggestion after suggestion being offered with the utmost patience and goodwill, by a whole stream of posters who were trying to help. There are pages and pages of this. We did not know what writer1's income was, or what her neighbours were like, or what the cost of living in her area was like, or what her teenagers were like, or what her landlord was like, or whether she could walk to the local schools to pick up kids and do paid childcare, or whether she needed a car to do that...

...we did not know all those things, so we kept throwing out suggestions, as posters have been doing with you.

However, instead of your seeing what they are trying to show you, which is that there are many potential solutions, and that if these don't suit you, you and your husband need to do the same kind of brainstorming we have been doing and come up with a shortlist of your own...

...instead of seeing that, you have focused on criticising specific suggestions that will not work for you, or that you'd rather not try. You are still waiting for someone to come up with the perfect suggestion for you; perfectly matched to you, 13yearsdown, and your husband, children, income level and community, none of which we know much about, nor ever will know from a message board like this.

Out of all the posts on writer1's thread, and out of all the kindness that was shown to her (along with some irritation, which was far outweighed by the kindness), all you could find to do was pick on ONE suggestion that you could never follow, and call it "terrible". It was as if this proved that nobody was trying to help you, or if they did, they were all useless at it, because nobody can understand that whatever is suggested will not work for you. That's what you did with the advice on her thread and that's what you have been doing, more or less, on your own thread.

That is one of the ways in which you are disrespectful, and also argumentative, to the posters here.

**EDIT**

.

6. I have NO real world examples of living the POUA. None. I have never met anyone who lived it and therefore have zero frame of reference for it or how it�s done. The logistical realities of it are completely foreign to me, a fact which I do not think can be overstated. I absolutely see how living it would be a healing balm to marriages in trouble and a constant anchor to good marriages. But I sincerely doubt that I am the first or will be the last that needs a lot more detail and guidance on how others have made it work. As I stated before, although the gym is not something that would work for us, I still appreciate knowing, specifically, how others do it (though I would still love more details). If anything, it can help assuage my fears that it is impossible. Merely saying, �it can be done,� does not. You guys are the ONLY people that I have access to that are able to say, �hey, I�ve done it. Here�s how I did.� You need not take it personally if I say that something won�t work for me. My intention in responding was that it could be a conversation, where you could either say, �ok, then that won�t work for you,� or maybe �I think this might still work and here�s why,� as opposed to taking offense and reprimanding me.


To prisca specifically, since I feel that she is one of those annoyed by me but has still taken the time to advise me over and over: Let me be very clear that I do appreciate getting your advice and I hope I will be able to continue receiving it as I work this program with my husband. Reading your story through the archives has been extremely inspiring, and has given me so much hope. I know that your guidance and feedback will be invaluable as we move forward. I hope that you will be able to be open to the idea that I am eager to learn and I do respect your experience with this program. This thread feels like a negative feedback loop and I hope it can stop.

13yr, did you ever follow up on any of my suggestions?

All of this discussion about how does UA work is a distraction from the real issue, which is that your husband is not on board with the program and is willing to do things regardless of how it makes you feel, such as viewing television programs that are hurtful to you.

A wife trying to figure out UA with a husband who is not motivated to implement the program will never be able to figure it out.

If you will follow the suggestions I gave you in my last post, you will not only build good habits for your marriage, but you will find that more posters will be willing to share their experiences and advice with you.

BTW, I am not posting to you because I am annoyed. I post to you because I want to help you. I ignore people who annoy me. These things that have been pointed out to you are habits we all had to learn. Nobody is attacking you or singling you out.

Well, I feel stupid responding when I just said that would be my last comment, but I suppose I meant my last comment on the negativity anyway. You've been great with advice so I don't want to seem that I've ignored it.

YES. I wrote to the radio program yesterday!

My husband is going to have a hard time with the POJA I think, but he hasn't been outright refusing to try. He is excited about the idea of a good marriage and about UA time. He did watch one of his shows I dislike last night even after watching the first part of the seminar the previous night. When I pointed out that's a LB for me, he first tried to argue that he had his headphones on and wasn't doing it in front of me. I am not sure if my reaction was an AO or not but I got pretty annoyed. He knew that wasn't what it meant (we read a lot of the basic materials a long time ago but made little to no effort to implement them at that time). He eventually agreed to stop but I don't know if it was just to appease me. He said it wasn't though and told me again that he does want to do what it takes to have a great marriage.

I do think he's on board.

Here's the thing: When people DO tell you what they did, and you mock what they say, they are going to be less likely to want to help you.

I'd really like to know if you'll take me up on the challenge I gave you.

moderator's note, if you have an issue with other posters, notify the moderators and let us handle it. that is our job. Don't come on the forum and lecture posters. If there is an issue, we will handle it. We have given you quite a bit of latitude on this thread because we want to help you, but the lecturing, disrespect and arguing must stop.

13yearsdown, I am locking this thread until I receive assurance from you via email that the arguing, lecturing and disrespect will stop. Posters will be glad to help you once that stops.