Hi! Thanks, hhhh, for posting your question! I have looking for the same topic myself. This is my first post, and it's from my phone so please pardon mis-spellings. Not certain what all the acronyms and abbreviations mean yet, but I am a fast learner. I am 42, married with 2 boys - ages 4 and 5. My wife and I just celebrated our 13th anniversary. She is a stay at home mother (38) and artist. Told me 6 weeks ago that she wanted out. I found this website the same night and have been working overtime to correct my mistakes according to Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I have the book and audiobook. (Really wish that I had discovered Dr. Harley years ago.) She and I have listened through Chapter 16. She doesn't want counseling nor wants to do the questionnaires - at least then. I haven't asked in a while. Anyway, I just wanted to get on this post as I will do my best to follow the advice closely. There have been great strides made in the past month and a half between us, but I still have a long ways to go. I think once we get done with the book, I'll ask her about the counseling again. Thanks so much!

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I have moved your post to its own thread so that it will get the attention it deserves.

Hello Thor, welcome to Marriage Builders. What are her complaints about the marriage? What is the problem from her perspective?

Hi, MelodyLane. One big problem is that she says that I don't "like" her. She says that she knows I love her, but that I don't like her personality, her interests, her family, etc. She says that our personalities are just inherently too different. She came to this decision 2.5 years ago. Another big problem is that I'm too controlling. She's too independent she says. So now, even doing little things around the house are construed as being controlling. This sounds like I'm making this to be all her fault, but it's not. I am just as guilty of where we are in our marriage. Probably could write a book here... Anyway, we just finished Chapter 15 last night of Fall in Love, Stay in Love (we're listening to the audiobook; I have a hard copy that I follow along with as well). She doesn't want to go to counseling. She hasn't wanted to fill out any questionnaires. I asked her again today if she would do the Marriage Builders counseling program. No response really. I think that it's only a matter of time before this thread is moved to Divorcing but that's just me being very discouraged right now. The past 6 weeks, I've been working to eliminate love busters (although I've failed several times, but I have apologized and tried to not do them again). Been trying to get her to spend undivided attention time with me as well (not doing well on that). I've been asking her the "how would you feel about..." in order to follow the policy of joint agreement. I do not expect a miracle in 6 weeks, but the issues of me being controlling (even when I am not trying to be... but perception is everything) and me not liking her or not being compatible with her are the walls that are preventing any love units from being deposited. So, those along with everything bad example from the book (except for infidelity), are my marriage issues. Seems very daunting at this point.

Also, she never said when she was going to pull the plug. I live from day to day not knowing when she's going to walk out. I can't trust anyone anymore (friends, family, etc.), and it feels like I am walking on eggshells with everyone - a difficult roller coaster ride to be sure. Should I be preparing for divorce proceedings? She has always been non-committal on most things. She says that she's not a vindictive person, but silent abuse from her is just like me giving her verbal abuse. Anyway, I have said time and time again that I am willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage. What is the best way to nail jello to a tree in this situation? And to my previous post... I guarantee you that if my wife ever saw these messages, she would say that I was being controlling and manipulative when I just need help. We just need help, and I need more help than she does.

What exactly are the lovebusters? Can you be very specific?

Silence is not abuse. It is NOT like you verbally abusing her.

So these are culminations over the past 13 years of marriage.

SD, DJ, AO, and IB.

When she would try to talk to me, I would shut her down by making DJ about why the issue wasn't my fault but hers. I don't do this very much now.

AO used to be more common as well as SD. I would say that these 3 were more prevalent before our 4 year old was born, but I tended to relapse now and again.

Honestly, I don't do these 3 so much in the past year or two.

2.5 years ago before we moved to our current location, she told me that she was considering divorce. We had made a pact before we got married (her own parents are divorced) that we'd never consider it an option, but when she brought it up then, I felt betrayed. But then the move happened, and life drowned out the issue. I knew then that I needed to do things differently, so I began working on me (just not with a book or counseling). [I mention this in regards to my earlier post as to when she decided that I didn't like her.]

It was before then that I just used to do things (outings, fun stuff with my friends, etc.) without really asking for permission. That IB was a habit that I've been doing for many years even before our 5 (almost 6) year old was conceived. I also leave at 4:30am for the office and would get home at 6:30 or 7:00pm due to my long hours and the commute.

We used to go swing dancing together all the time, but with little boys, that's difficult and nigh impossible. We tried to have date nights, but that stopped due to low finances and time.

I got very involved in our church and outside organizations (she was not so much). So the independent behaviour has been a huge issue for not only me but her as well. She doesn't invite nor want me to join her on activities even when I tell her that I'd like to go. It's an assumption on her part that I won't be interested.

I have made a point in the past 6+ weeks to be home by 5:30pm (only missed it once and that was because I was carpooling with someone). I no longer do any church activities or outside organization activities, so that I can be here at the house to help.

Back to the SD, DJ, and AO, I am (although I have tempered greatly in recent years) a volatile person, so while I don't have these so much, the events have not been pleasant. I've never physically abused her nor have I ever had an affair.

I have been very rude (caustic even) to her mother and step-father. Seems like I'm always good for an apology every 6 months...

I was (repeat, was) heavy handed with my sons in the way of discipline (I would never beat them), but I would get angry and yell at them when they were disobedient (not all of the time, of course, but more than less, sadly). Anyway, I have worked extremely hard to cut this out over the past 1.5 months (this was an issue she brought up on that fateful night), and I no longer am that type of father with them. As discouraged as I am about the progress made with my wife right now, the shining light is that my boys have flourished since I started right away to change my behaviour (not just in the way of discipline) towards them. If nothing else good happens, that will be a great thing.

I write this diatribe to show that yes, I have many LB occurrences, but just over the past 6 weeks, I have shown that they can be "controlled" by someone with my type of controlling personality who is very disciplined.

Also, I did give her the "her" LB questionnaire to fill out and asked her to do so... but only if she felt like doing it.

Oh yeah, every time that she has spoken to me, I have kept my trap shut and listened. I have not responded like I would have a decade ago and do the SD, DJ, and/or AO. Again this past year, there hasn't been a lot of that from me to her.

As far as AH go, I am sure that I have them but not certain what she thinks. I'm very big on honesty, so that's not a LB for me.

If you haven't figured it out already, I am a Type A Scorpio while she is a Type B Virgo.

For someone like me who needs communication, silence is abuse. I am not saying that silence is on par with verbal abuse. Not at all! However, they both get to the same result. Resentment, barriers to love deposits, destruction of relationships, etc. One just gets you there faster.

That's what I mean by that statement. Hope that makes it more clear. And you're right, it's not like me verbally abusing her which was very wrong.

Conversely, giving someone the silent treatment for many years by swallowing the pain in and then springing something like divorce on them isn't the same as verbal abuse.

Perspective.

But now that I know, I can try to repair the problems within myself.

MelodyLane, I think that you may have been asking me about the LB that most recently happened in the past 6 weeks. If so, I apologize for mis-interpreting your question. In the process of typing up another response. Please hang tight.

Thanks for the explanation. What do you mean by you don't have them "so much?" Every time you behave in a volatile manner, you completely wipe out any progress you have made. I would strongly suggest you find a good anger management course so you can completely change your behavior so you NEVER do that again.


Not sure how any of this relates, but you have to learn new behavior if you want to be married.

Your wife is in withdrawal. So, of course, she will be silent. Dr Harley would probably tell her to separate from you in these circumstances.

You can make the problem about 100% WORSE if you try to bully a withdrawn spouse into communicating with you. I would lay off pushing her around about her silence. Of course she is silent, you are a WALKING TIME BOMB.

My wife is independent. She doesn't want to be controlled as I had mentioned.

After she told me she wanted out, her step-mother had called me about needing some info. She asked me how we were doing, and I told her what had happened. She asked me if it was okay if she told my wife's father. I said okay, but I asked that they not "interfere" but to let me try to win her back. The next thing that I know, my father-in-law has called my wife. That made my wife so angry. I don't think that I've ever seen her that mad or at least, it's been a long time.

The second time, I had reached out to two other couples (friends of ours) to try to set up a bowling outing. I was trying to figure out schedules for all of us, and then ask my wife about it. This is an outing that we had tried to schedule several months ago but had fallen through. Again, the next thing that I know one of her friends had sent her a message saying, "What's this about us going bowling?" So yeah, I'm being controlling. Lesson learned. Ask her first before asking everyone else (this is how I used to schedule these types of events; it wasn't a problem then).

Another instance that backfired was this. My wife is a stay-at-home mother. I was always trying to get her to go out with her two gal pals (wives in the couples mentioned previously) since I know that our boys take a toll on her. Her mother and step-father have a small cabin in the mountains. I initiated an outing for my wife and her two friends by asking her mother if they could use the cabin. They had a good time, but you guessed it, that was me being controlling.

Just recently something happened between me and one of the aforementioned couples where the wife took the wrong way what her husband and I had discussed. I won't go into it since it's really just befuddling to me as to how it even go to where it got. The wife thought that I was telling her husband that I didn't want her to be friends with my wife any more. Honestly, I don't even know what to say. That was from so far out of left field.

My wife says that she knows that I'm not being malicious about anything but that it's just my personality to be controlling, and that her independent personality isn't compatible with my controlling nature. All of her friends, family, etc. believe this, I'm sure. I know this myself and have in my professional life to relinquish a lot of that. I just never knew that my wife felt this way since she was silent about it, but all of our friends certainly knew.

Lesson learned though. Don't trust anyone even if they say that you can trust them. I should never have spoken to any one else about our issues and should have come straight here.

Let me add this lest folks reading this think ill of anyone (friends or family) mentioned herein. These are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet, and I personally would prefer to be around them than anyone else. I've just not been invited to hang out with them by my wife, so I grew resentful of being shut-out. But if I had been the husband I should have been, this wouldn't have happened to begin with. So I'll take responsibility for the shambles that is my marriage.

You just said you would shut her down with DJs and AOs.whenever she tried to talk to you about problems.you can't have it both ways. She WASNT silent by your own admission.you REFUSED to hear.

That's correct, apples123, and I have acknowledged that with my wife. Again, we're talking about the past 13 years here of cumulative LBs. However, I have made great strides in the past 3 years of not having AO with her. Problem is that in the Spring/Summer, my discipline methods with my older son was yelling. So while I haven't yelled at her in a very long while, I was at my precious boys.

MelodyLane, just to clarify with your post, I do NOT bully my wife into trying to communicate with me. I stopped doing that about 4-5 years ago. Saw that it just made things worse.

However (to reiterate), all of the LBs have been building up over our 13 years of marriage. I personally feel that it's very unfair that the past several years of making progress do not count, but that's just the way it is as Dr. Harley writes. I get it.

I guess really what I need to hear from others on this forum is if there's really any hope.

She's apparently been in withdrawal for several years now according to what you're saying, MelodyLane, (although I just don't know why she would have wanted to have a second child if I was this horrible type of husband... I mean, why?).

So even if I did change for the better over the past 4-5 years, and she still wants out, does that mean that it's even worth it to try to save our marriage at this point? I think that the change just wasn't enough then. I'll have to continue and work harder.

[Some of this is just rhetorical...]

One thing that I should have mentioned is that in looking back at myself and our marriage a 1.5 to 2 years ago, I believe that I was in withdrawal myself. I really didn't care. I thought that I was doing all I could to make the marriage work especially after she brought up divorce 2.5 to 3 years ago.

But now that I see the disastrous results that could happen to our sons if we divorce (as well as everything else that's bad), I want to save our marriage.

Again, I've suggested that we both go through counseling but... silence. I am not pushing it - just asking.

MelodyLane, to answer your question about Type A Scorpio versus Type B Virgo, I just put that to show what type of personalities we are.

This is very important in my opinion.

I won't go into the traits, but I am certain that any psychologist would say "uh oh" after hearing that description of me and my wife. Oil and water.

I know that this would not be an issue if we were following Dr. Harley's concepts, but I only learned about his great work and advice 6 weeks ago. Just wish that I had come across it many years ago.

I am doing all I can to follow his advice on a daily basis.

Angry outbursts must be eliminated.

Please listen to the radii clips in here.
Anger Management 101

Thanks, BrainHurts. Listening to Part One right now.

Good let us know what you think. There are also more recent radio clips about AO at the end of the thread.

Wow! I was able to listen to all of Parts One through Three and a little of Part Four before I had to put my boys to bed. I had never had that viewpoint put to me before about who makes me angry. (Or if I had, it didn't register.)

I was appalled to hear the caller's situation, but I can empathize with him. Even though I've never let myself get to that point, I definitely have felt the internal anger build up. Going to listen to the last bit and then look for the other radio broadcasts that you mentioned. Thanks again for your post!

You're very welcome.

BrainHurts, a quick question for you if you're online.

Would Dr. Harley suggest that I go ahead and schedule an appointment with them via telephone even if my wife isn't willing to do marriage counseling?

And if so, should I ask my wife if that would be okay with her if I did an hour session with him/the MB staff? If anything, I would want to clear the expenditure of the funds with her. (I ask this because it seems to me that would be following the spirit of eliminating LBs and following the POJA.)

I think that this would be really beneficial for me at the least, and $275 per hour is chump change even if I only get one nugget of wisdom out of the counseling session.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

What is important to the success of the program is changing behavior. You can learn new habits regardless of your horoscope sign. In essence, Dr Harley is not so interested in your personality, but in whether you will change your habits and can implement the POJA.


My suggestion would be to write Dr Harley at his radio show and speak to him on the radio. [its free] You can tell him about your situation and he will give you free advice. That might be a good first step and it would cost you nothing.

I would write to Dr. Harley on the radio show and you can be a caller and talk to Dr. Harley personally.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Thanks, MelodyLane and BrainHurts! I will try that first.

Great, let us know when you hear back.

Well, I haven't written Joyce and Dr. Bill yet. At first, I was trying to figure out how to phrase my questions, what issues to bring up, etc., so I kept chewing the cud on it.

Meanwhile, I kept focusing on eliminating LBs, trying to make love bank deposits, and trying to get UA time with my wife. I also kept reading other forum posts and listening to the MB radio shows on my phone while commuting to work.

So my wife is now helping set up dates with me by asking her mother to watch our boys. I had a wonderful talk with her mother about our relationship. I had been doing massive LBs to her mother and her step-father as well as to my own parents. So by eliminating LBs with not only my wife but also my in-laws and even my boys, I think that progress has been made in regard to how my wife feels about me.

My wife has watched Fireproof with me. For those familiar with the movie, I actually had started my own Love Dare four weeks prior to seeing the movie! I am continuing to do special things each day for my wife. It's become a joy to think creatively about what to do for her... something that I honestly quit doing regularly a few years after we got married. I'd still do nice things intermittently, but I wasn't protecting my love bank account and all of my LBs were making massive withdrawals.

She has continued listening to the audiobook of Fall in Love, Stay in Love with me, and we are almost through it.

The big breakthrough seems to be from the elimination of LBs (I haven't been perfect, but those slip-ups have been unintentional and not malicious - my wife said so herself), and I will continue to guard from doing LBs not only to her but also my boys, her folks, my folks, our friends, etc.

After listening to Dr. H's Anger Mgt 101, that really gave me a different insight on how to control anger, so I greatly appreciate the advice on that.

So now that I believe that I have a good handle on LB elimination, I am trying to get more UA time by planning fun dates. I've asked her to identify her top AH of mine so that I can work on those.

(My wife hasn't filled out any of the questionnaires, but I'll ask again in a few weeks.)

Anyway, a lot has happened positively just in the past week. Treating her as the Number One person in the entire world, eliminating LBs, spending UA with her (again, I'm trying to get to that 15 hours or more... slowly but surely), treating her family and friends with respect, etc. has made a difference.

She still has a lot of anger against me inside her that I can see in her eyes and actions towards me for what I have done (and failed to do), but I see some softness at times, and that's a great hope.

Anyway, I felt that I needed to give you an update. I haven't slacked off in regards to anything but have doubled my efforts and my resolve to following Dr. H's concepts. I am very disciplined in my life, so following Dr. H's advice has been somewhat easy for me once I made a decision to do follow it.

Maybe one other reason why I'm going through this at this particular point in my life is that I've been able to share MarriageBuilders.com and Dr. H's books with others in my life who are going through tough times in their marriage.

I know that I have a very long road ahead with my wife, but this forum has been great, and I am so grateful that I found Marriage Builders the same day that my wife told me she wanted out. Without an ultimatum as Dr. H has said, I'd still be screwing up. The advice here has not only helped me in my marriage but also with my extended family, my friends, and my professional life.

What activities is your wife doing? Does she go dancing with her friends? Where does she go on her girls night outs?

I do not like that her and her friends are willing to do GNO's and go away for the weekends without the husbands but the friends are not willing to get together as couples and go out.

Also how the one friend is taking actions to prevent you from cutting into any GNO time by including the husbands. Also the wife's friend trying to drive a wedge between her and her husband and you so you do not try to make any more plans, and it appears that this friend does not want you talking to her husband to neither of you compare notes and figure what is going on.

Wives do not want divorces unless they have their husbands replacement already lined up and ready to step in.

It is good that you are plan A'ing your wife. Though that anger is another sign that your wife has been having an affair and so id her friend. Partners in crime supporting other in their deceit.

A woman WILL leave a man without a replacement. Read Dr. Harley's article about why women leave men.

You should snoop. But you should also clean up your side of the street.

Anger is not necessarily a sign of an affair. It can be a sign that her complaints have been ignored.

TR - perhaps you should read the whole thread. Thor's wife is responding well Now that he is actually following the MB plan.