Hi,

I posted a while ago about angry outbursts and arguing. My husband and I have been working on eliminating love busters and haven't argued since then, but now another recurring problem has come back up.

Things had been going great. He had been talking about leaving before but yesterday said he felt really lucky to be in the relationship and didn't want to leave unless things got bad again over the next couple months.

Today we kissed goodbye and he left for work. Right after he left, I got a bunch of texts from him saying that he really hates the kind of **** that just happened, he felt like our relationship was a huge lie, and he just wanted to get away from me. It turned out that he felt like I didn't kiss him goodbye passionately and that made him feel like he's incapable of turning me on.

Sex has been a big issue for us for a long time, but we hadn't addressed that yet because we were trying to get rid of love busters first. Basically, he feels like I'm cold to him a lot and he feels frustrated. I'd actually brought up a couple times recently that we should start talking about sexual fulfillment and how I can meet his needs, since he's been controlling his temper and I feel a lot better about the relationship, but we hadn't talked about it yet, and actually, he doesn't seem to want to. He thinks that it's something that should just "happen" and talking about it would be manipulating me into doing something I don't really want to do.

So now he feels rejected and won't talk about how to resolve the issue. When I ask him what he wants, he just says he wants me to be like I was when he married me. He won't say anything specific.

I didn't even have any idea he was trying to seduce me or turn me on when he kissed me. I thought it was just a goodbye peck. I told him that, but he seems to just see it as further proof that I'm cold to him.

Like I said, this kind of thing has happened before. It seems like everything's going great in our relationship, and then he kisses me or initiates in some other way and feels like I don't respond the way he wants me to, so he says that he feels like just giving up on the whole thing. I feel like it's some kind of test that I keep failing.

Btw, we had sex about a week ago that I initiated, but he doesn't like that we always have it in the evening after we've been hanging out. He wants it to be more spontaneous and happen at other times of the day. He mentioned that yesterday, and I told him that I really like to feel an emotional connection from hanging out in order to have sex, but that we could work towards being more spontaneous.

So now we're both upset, and he doesn't want to talk about it. Any advice?

Are you spending 15 undivided attention hours together consistently?

No. More like 10, and this past week everything was thrown off because our daughter's school was on break. It's hard because we work opposite shifts. He's in the process of changing his schedule though.

smallpeace,

How much of the Marriage Builders program are you familiar with and how much, if any, has your H read/participated in?

The best advice we can give you based on your latest post is to follow this program. If you could do some of the counseling that would help considerably.

Your H expects you to read his mind and won't accept anything less than that. That is something that will have to change. Without open and honest communication you are set up to fail all the time. You two are a team and as a team you need a plan. A well thought out communicated plan.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons why your H wants things his way. Unfortunately how he wants things to go down simply doesn't work. There is no way you can know exactly what he wants unless he tells you.

It could be something as simple as him saying:

"Before I leave for work each day I would love it if you would ...."

"I would love it if we could be intimate at least X times a week and of those I would like at least X number of times for it to be something spontaneous."

The beauty of him stating his wants gives you the opportunity to negotiate with him.

If he isn't willing to provide you this information maybe you start by communicating to him what you think he wants.

"Before you leave for work each day I will be sure to give you ...."
"I would love it if we could be intimate X times a week. On one of those days, preferably a day where we spend time connecting, I would like to plan SF in the evening."

You have to learn the art of negotiating. Of course you need a willing partner to negotiate but with some practice you can learn to be the one to make it happen.

Thanks for your advice, MrAlias. I've read most of the articles on the site, have spent some time reading the forums, have been listening to the radio show regularly for the past few months, and have read His Needs Her Needs and He Wins She Wins. My husband and I have done some of the 5 Steps worksheets together and he's in the process of reading Love Busters.

I'll ask him again if he'd be willing to communicate what he wants now that he's cooled off. If not, I'll try what you suggested.

Your husband made a complaint. He didn't make it as a thoughtful request, because he was too emotionally reactive.

Your best course of action is to try to respond calmly. The fact that your husband actually wrote his feelings in a text is good. The complaint I heard was not about SF, but about your lack of engagement when he expresses positive feelings or affection.

It is a disrespectful judgment on his part to EXPECT you to respond in any certain way. However, showing goodwill toward your husband might look something like this:

Honey, I'm sorry that you didn't feel good about the way I responded to your affection this morning. I want you to feel good, so can we figure out a solution tonight when you get home?"

Your husband may feel that you should naturally respond like he would. That is not the case. It is a disrespectful judgment. But if he can learn to put his hurt aside, he can thoughtfully request the response which would make him happy. You can then find a way to practice responding in a way that you both feel good about. After practice, that response will become more "second nature" for you, just like it already is for him.



When you sit down to figure out a solution, pull out the 4 Guidelines to Successful Negotation. Start with defining the problem and don't talk in circles. Focus on finding behaviors which would work for both of you to feel good.

Follow the negotiation steps formally. I would write down what you both agree to in a notebook and put the SF issue on the back burner until this response to kissing is solved.

Can you try this?

Uh...


Threats...



Angry outbursts...



Disrespectful judgments...

I'd say he still has a bit of work to do on love busters.


I have a lot to say on this issue because we're working on the same things in my own marriage. But first go read through this series of articles and see what you take away from it http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/ss/50-1.html

Here are 2 articles about negotiating in marriage, and the 3rd is for the Guidelines. Sorry can't supply better links right now.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_raise.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

I see his texts as an angry outburst as well.

Thanks, DidntQuit. I think I did stay calm, and responded similarly to how you suggested. He responded to that by listing more reasons he was unhappy with the situation, and said he'd said all he had to say and suggested that I devote my time to doing something else (other than texting him back).

The reason I think the bigger problem is SF is that it's been a big problem for a long time, and also that he literally said he has no power to turn me on (based on that kiss, which was when he was on his way out the door so I'm not clear on why he was even trying to turn me on).

But yes, I very much want to try negotiating about it. He still doesn't want to right now. I still haven't seen him in person since this happened, but he emailed me today and said he just wanted to express his feelings because he thought they were important but wasn't ready to do any negotiating. He feels like negotiating = wishing the problem away. I don't know why.

FightTheFight and apples, I agree that he's still engaging in love busters. I wanted to address what's upsetting him before tackling that, though.

I've read the willingness to desire column and forwarded it to him earlier along with some other links. He said he'd look at them when he feels like it.

From what he's said in his emails today, this was really devastating from him and he's still recovering from it and is not ready to talk about solutions. He just wants me to acknowledge that it happened and be empathetic. I've tried to do that, but I guess I haven't used the right words because he still seems really frustrated.

From the Q&A column I posted to you:


I quote this to say point out to you that you're simply not going to desire sex the say way he does. You don't have the testosterone flowing through your body in nearly the same amounts. He's going to have to be responsible for "getting you in the mood".

Now, where you can help this process is by providing feedback on what does get you in the mood for sex and makes the experience enjoyable for you. This may involve all sorts of things that just aren't necessary for him to be in the mood himself, but are absolutely essential for your own arousal. For example, conversation, affection, and your surroundings.

My point is that these love busters are CONTRIBUTING to your lack of desire! He's shooting himself in the foot! Having an angry outburst about the way you kiss him goodbye in the morning isn't going to get you any closer to being "passionate" about him. In fact, it will probably have the opposite effect in the long run.


Did you get the solution contained in that article? It's not just s an educational read, it contains an actual solution to your problem.


Admit that what happened? You didn't kiss him correctly this morning?

Yes, I agree, FightTheFight. I hope he'll be on board with that, but right now he's still withdrawn and thinks I'm trying to minimize his feelings by talking about solutions already.

Admit that what happened? You didn't kiss him correctly this morning? [/quote]

I think he wants me to acknowledge that he felt like he couldn't turn me on, and say that it must be really hard to feel like that. I'm not sure exactly what he wants though because he won't be clear about it.

Have you thought about signing up for the online/accountability program? You can work directly with Dr Harley and have help in mediating some of these issues.

Also, he feels like something we used to have is gone, and it's something that's either there or isn't and there's no way to revive it. He seems to think that since we used to have more chemistry without "working" at it, we shouldn't have to work at it.

unwritten, I looked into that, but it's a little out of my budget right now.

Have you snooped lately?

With that statement, he is giving you notice that he intends to leave you.

He might also be having an affair, or gearing himself up to have one. By that I mean that he has a woman in mind that he thinks is more passionate than you. There is a clear sense, in what he says to you, that he is exploring other options. It make no sense that when you offer to give him the very thing that he is demanding, i.e. more passion, he refuses it and instead says that this cannot be fixed.

I'll share something that Dr Harley told me:


So I can only tell you that your sexual response to your husband probably has a lot more to do with what he does than what you do. You simply can't "make yourself want it more". Somehow you've got to get that message across and work the issue.

A big part of it though is going to be addressing love busters going both ways.

Or he's just watching porn and thinking that's how you should be too. That's a very real thing.

I would highly suggest you reconsider this and make the effort to find the money somehow. Divorce is much more costly than going through the online program.

Rule out an affair or some other contrast affect first.

I haven't snooped. Yes, he definitely is threatening to leave, but I've lost count of how many times he's already made that threat. He's gotten as far as opening his own bank account but has never actually left. I would be surprised if he was having an affair because things had been going really well for us until yesterday. I think that's why he was so upset by this- he thought that since things were going well, there should be nothing in the way of my libido. He told me literally the night before this happened that he was really happy with our relationship, felt lucky to be with me, thought I'd really working on things and things were just generally good. I said then that maybe we should start addressing SF, but he kind of brushed it off. We'd previously set the end of February as a goal for things being better with the understanding that he might move out if they weren't, and that night I asked him directly if he still felt like moving out, and he said no. That's why it's so confusing to me that this happened. It's like he's had a complete about-face because of something relatively minor (IMO- I didn't tell him that).

FighttheFight, all that makes total sense to me. I hope I can get him to read and accept it.

He used to watch porn, but I don't think he does anymore. From what he's said, he's just comparing me to myself at other times in our relationship.

You should follow the advice snoop. There's no reason not to.

Can you see how this account you have given parallels this one:


The key thing to realize is this:


And


I think your husband is looking for you to take the initiative, but at least for now, that's the wrong approach to take.

In addition, you should also be aware that your desire and willingness to make love to him is directly related to how connected you feel with him.

Yes, I think our stories are very similar, even the part about him being her first and only boyfriend/lover. The biggest difference is that she said she's never had a strong libido, and I have at times. I hope he'll read it.

I have heard Dr Harley say that it is very common for a woman in the earlier stages of a relationship to be much more willing to make love and desire sex because she is motivated to have the relationship work out. It's her gift to the man she loves. However, after being married, the sexual part of the relationship is expected and her willingness and desire is much more closely related to how close and connected she feels to her husband.

Feeling close and connected to your husband is something that you can work on from your end. Make it your job to spend time together doing things that make you feel closer and connected. This will have a positive effect on your desire and eagerness to share that gift with him.

That makes so much sense. I've never really been able to figure out why my libido has been higher even during times when we were fighting a lot or in a long distance relationship.

My #1 need is intimate conversation, and we haven't been having particularly good conversations lately. Actually, I was getting frustrated over the weekend because he seemed to want to use his computer a lot and was distracted when I was talking to him. Anyway, I read the article about friends/enemies of good conversation and plan to implement the suggestions.

Keep in mind that the same general rules would apply here. If you want him to "desire" conversation, it needs to ultimately be enjoyable for him. Just like him, every time you get angry about it you're shooting yourself in the foot just like he is. You can't go around demanding that he desire conversation any more than he should go around demanding the you desire sex more!

I know. I didn't say I got angry or demanded conversation, just that I was frustrated. We actually had a productive discussion and worked it out.

So now he's saying the kiss made him realize that I never respond to him anymore, so the whole thing is hopeless and a sham and he's been deceiving himself. He got himself into a deep funk without even talking to me because he thinks his perception is reality. I don't know what to do.

Honestly, I can relate to your husband. Even though I can see what he is doing and saying really isn't productive. I've been there myself and done some of the same things. So from that perspective, I can offer you what would work for me and falls within Dr Harley's guidance. (Which turns out to be quite brilliant by the way)

First and foremost, I would totally avoid anything that could be perceived as defensive. Nothing positive will happen if you don't start there.

I'd also suggest to avoid talking about this in person for now. I'd recommend taking that energy and emotion you're feeling and start working on an email that is free from any kind of disrespectful judgements or anger. Go read the article on goodwill here http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_GoodWill.html and keep it in mind. Also read this article about negotiating when you're an emotional person http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_neg.html And this one about how to negotiate when noone wants to raise the issue http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8122_raise.html

I'd approach it from the perspective that you desperately want to meet his need and want his help in meeting it for him. Tell him you have a plan in mind to meet that need and it involves X,Y and Z that you need to "get in the mood".

I'd work your own emotional need of conversation into what you need to feel passionate about making love to him. I'd tell him that you want to go out on dates every week and spend time one on one without your daughter.

Be radically honest about your desire to be passionate about him, but put in it the context of asking for his help in getting you there. Then go about figuring out what it is that makes you feel connected and willing to make love to him.

I finally saw him in person last night and we were able to talk without it turning into a huge fight. He still didn't want to discuss solutions, but talked more about how he felt. Basically, it's not just sex- he feels like I'm not in love with him because nothing he does seems to have a positive effect on me. I don't necessarily agree with that but I didn't try to argue with him. Today he said that he's ready to look at solutions, and will read some links I sent him as a starting point. In the meantime, I'm trying to be more aware of things he's doing to show affection etc. We'll try to follow all of your advice. Thanks for your help!

Maybe try to get in the habit of providing feedback when something he does makes you feel good. This feeds his need for admiration and also tells him what he is doing right. Positive reinforcement is encouraging and also gets you more of what you want. A win-win.


Just be careful with this one that you don't just simply try to "appreciate" things he is doing that don't necessarily hit the mark. The goal should be to actually meet the emotional needs you want met, not to try to change your own perception of what you enjoy.

For example, how this usually goes is he might say, "Hey look at this list of things I'm doing for you and it has no effect on you at all." First of all, it's a disrespectful thing to say because it implies he knows what you're thinking, and it also implies that you're just not appreciative enough and should be more responsive. It puts you on the defensive for not "acting the right way".

The solution to that isn't for you to try to change how something makes you feel, the solution is to change the items on the list to things that actually do make more of a difference to you. (Bigger love bank deposits) See the difference? This is the part you can help with from your end. Help him figure out what to put on his list!

OK.


One of the examples he gave was that I used to like more music, tv shows, etc. that he introduced me to. He still likes music and shows that I like, but feels like whenever he tries to play anything new for me now, I'm not interested and would rather listen to/watch stuff that I choose. That's true to some extent. I try to keep an open mind, but some stuff he plays for me just doesn't strike a chord with me or even puts me in a bad mood. It kind of reminds me of when Dr. Harley said that his wife joined him in certain recreational activities before they were married and then stopped. We have plenty of mutual interests and overlapping tastes, but I think he sees it as a reflection of my feelings about him that I don't like things just because he does.

So it's a week later... last week he agreed to try working on things, but then we had a really crazy week with family visiting from out of town and him working a lot of late nights and weren't able to start doing any work until today, but we were getting along ok and going out on dates. This morning we finally had some time to talk about the relationship, and he wanted to go over his angry outbursts as Dr. Harley suggests in Love Busters. We looked at his texts from last week and discussed how they were angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements, and he said that that's just how he expresses himself, and he thinks that when he has really strong feelings that things are really wrong, he shouldn't beat around the bush because it's important to communicate to me that there's a serious problem in our relationship.

We discussed this for a while, but then it became clear that he was getting really upset again because the feelings he was having last week were getting dredged up. He kept saying that he felt like the marriage was an abomination. I asked him why he thought that, and he said that we'd gotten married under false pretenses (i.e., I was "pretending" to be attracted to him). Then he said that he really wanted to have a conversation about that before we work on anything.

When I saw him again, he was acting withdrawn again, like he was last week. He was short with me when I said anything to him, and didn't hug me when he left for work, and slammed the door on his way out. I called him and asked why he was acting like that, and he said that until today he'd thought our relationship after getting married was a sham, but our relationship before that was real. Now he "realizes" that our relationship never was real and I never was "the one". He said that we're incompatible and he doesn't even really like me, he was in love with a false image I'd projected of myself. We've been together for decades, btw.

So now he says that he doesn't think the relationship is worth saving, since it wasn't real to begin with. He says he doesn't even want a relationship, and doesn't want to be accountable to anyone except himself, and never really did. This is so distressing to me, because I thought we'd been making real progress and was falling in love with him again. It seems like just when we both thought things were getting better and I could see happiness in our future, he suddenly wants to leave.

I checked his phone, btw, and there were no unidentified texts that might point to an affair, and I can't think of anyone he might be having an affair with, and his time away from me is pretty much accounted for.

THIS.

Beg, borrow, steal to do this.

Your husband needs accountability with his emotional outbursts. Some of his reactions are ingrained as a response to your love busters. It's impossible for you to be the motivation and acountability for your spouse. And it sounds like your husband's emotional reactions will impact his motivation. Doing the online program takes the strategizing off of you both and fine tunes your focus. This helps stop the bleeding. Overwhelm is a risk when you have several marital problems and lots to learn.

Your husband is willing to learn about the program. I would in the least email the radio show and best sign up for the accountability program.

Did you ever read this? I linked it quite a while back.


How to Negotiate When You're An Emotional Person

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_happy.html

We all feel disillusioned when our marriage goes south. We start to question our original decision and the facts surrounding it. A high conflict marriage void of affairs and addictions casts a fog of it's own because it overshadows the positive interactions and puts romantic love so far behind us that we question if it ever existed.

When your husband makes a negative statement about his fears that you should never have married, try to respond with something positive and hopeful and change the subject. He is caught up in his emotions and it skews things. Say something like, "Honey, I married you because I loved you and was into you."


Please read:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5004_qa.html

Smallpeace...something to add...

After reading your threads, I am convinced that there are some love budgets you do repeatedly that drive your husband crazy....and you for whatever reason don't have empathy forhow much it hurts him. So even though I suggested the online program to help him be accountable for his outbursts, you will need to figure out what it is that is setting him off and change those behaviors. The online program will help you be accountable too.

Lol. I meant love busters.

Thanks so much for your replies, DidntQuit. I will reconsider the accountability program. I have read the link about how to negotiate when you're an emotional person. I should probably try to get my husband to read it, but I don't think he's read any of the links I've sent him yet. I've tried to tell him some of the same stuff that's in the article. That was actually kind of what started the whole thing this time- we were talking about angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements and he started explaining why he feels he needs to do them even though he knows they hurt me, which led to him getting emotional and doing them again.

I'd read the incompatibility article before, but thanks for reminding me about it- it's a good one. I'll try to get him to read it too.

I'm sure I must be doing love busters too, but when I ask him what I'm doing that he wants me to stop doing, he says that I'm not "doing" anything, it's just that he feels like I'm not in love with him and never really was. And he's been reading love busters for the past couple months so he knows what those are. So I feel like I need to focus on meeting his emotional needs instead. There are definitely a few things I was doing before that I've been working on stopping (independent behavior, and arguing), and he said they aren't as much of a problem any more.

He also blames me (partially, at least) for "ruining his life" because he's not where he wants to be in his career and thinks that's because I convinced him to have a serious relationship with me when we were younger and he should have been focusing on his career. I thought he could focus on his career and be in a relationship with me at the same time, and he says he wound up sacrificing his goals because he thought it would be worth it to be with me, and now he feels like he doesn't have a good career or a good marriage. He keeps asking me to acknowledge that I was wrong and apologize for what I "did", and can't seem to get past this. When he's in this kind of mood, he doesn't seem to see the good things in his life.

Anyway, we had a productive discussion 2 nights ago where he agreed to work on the program again, but of course by now I realize that the situation is volatile and could blow up again any time.

That man is crying out for a conversation with Dr Harley. I would say that a single appearance on the radio show would do more for him than a year of trying to do the MB programme alone.

Dr Harley says that when we have successful marriages, that does more for us than success in any other area of life. Your H was right to have put his marriage first; it's just that he lacked the tools and knowledge that he needed to create a satisfying emotional life, and now he seems determined to give up on the marriage altogether.

Since you seem to be making some progress with agreeing to do MB, would you be willing to broach the subject of an email to Dr Harley at the radio show, explaining the main points of this thread, and agreeing for you both to go on the radio show? I really think you would turn a corner by doing that.

Yes!!

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.