Marriage Builders
Posted By: LeizleK Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 09:39 AM
What if? What if a woman could get passed her feelings of insecurity to see from the perspective of the husband who likes to see beautiful women in photos? Whether they be completely clothed, scantily clad, or nude...
If the husband genuinely fulfills all his wife's needs, their marriage has been mostly a happy one...but, he engages in independent behavior when it involves looking at beautiful women photos on the internet...first in secret, but now known by the wife (& she disagrees with some of the photos)
What then? He feels he is doing nothing wrong, and that the wife is making an issue out of a non issue. Are her feelings of betrayal, insecurity, etc her problem because she fails to see from his perspective? Are wives supposed to overlook their looking? He says he's not lusting, he's admiring their beauty, nothing more. He enjoys seeing "perfectly shaped" women, as well as larger women...all beautiful in their own way - the way they were created.

Who's right in this case?
Policy of Joint Agreement?
Not engaging in independent behavior, but at the expense of the one who believes he's done nothing wrong?
Is it that he's selfish? Or is she being selfish because she's jealous he looks at beautiful women photos?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 01:27 PM
First: I have no idea why you have apparently responded to my post with this post. I can't work out what I wrote that led to this musing.

Second: Did you read the Terms of Service that you signed up to? Are you aware that this is a guidance forum, offering support with Marriage Builders concepts? Do you know anything about those concepts and principles?

Dr Harley is quite specific about the behaviours that are acceptable and negotiable, or intolerable and non-negotiable, in the kind of marriage that he advocates. Those of us who post here to give or receive advice do so because we want a Marriage Builders marriage; one in which neither spouse hurts the other, and neither is hurt by the insensitive behaviour of the other. Quite simply: if the behaviour of one spouse hurts or causes distress to the other, the behaviour must stop. There are no "what ifs" exceptions in a marriage design to created the maximum feelings of love in both spouses.

When men look at other "beautiful women in photos...Whether they be completely clothed, scantily clad, or nude..." it hurts and distresses most wives.

"Are her feelings of betrayal, insecurity, etc her problem because she fails to see from his perspective?"

No: her feelings are HIS problems because he is damaging the love she has for him. If he wants a happy marriage for himself, he needs to stop doing anything and everything that damages her love. There is no argument that anyone can possibly make against that.

If a man is hurt and distressed by being told that there is no place for looking at other women within his marriage, he is not fit to be married. There is no argument against that, either.
Posted By: markos Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by LeizleK
What if? What if a woman could get passed her feelings of insecurity to see from the perspective of the husband who likes to see beautiful women in photos? Whether they be completely clothed, scantily clad, or nude...

That would be offensive and hurtful to almost every woman ever. The average woman would eventually have terrible problems if she put up with that from her husband long term, so Dr. Harley advises women not to put up with it.

If I did that my wife would change the locks and tell everyone we know.

Even if some rare woman weren't bothered by such behavior it would still reduce the love her husband feels for her, by the contrast effect.

The word "insecurity" is just a disrespectful judgment on the husband's part: "There's something wrong with you that you can't put up with this. You are insecure. You shouldn't feel this way." Baloney.
Posted By: markos Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by LeizleK
He feels he is doing nothing wrong, and that the wife is making an issue out of a non issue.

In Dr. Harley's experience, anything that a spouse feels reluctant about is an issue that will eventually destroy the marriage.

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Are her feelings of betrayal, insecurity, etc her problem because she fails to see from his perspective?

No. Marriage doesn't work for people who are willing to hurt their spouse.
Posted By: unwritten Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 03:49 PM
Leizlek, maybe you would like to start your own thread in the MB101 forum?

It sounds to me like you have discovered your H's oogling (and possible porn use?), and disapprove because it is hurtful to you (and would be to almost any woman), and he is manipulating you by telling you that you are being unreasonable to feel this way.

It is not normal or acceptable for a husband to oogle other women in any fashion, it is highly disrespectful to you. You feeling upset about it is how most women would feel (also disrespected, angry, etc). The fact is that YOU are upset by it, and if he wants to make you feel happy and secure and provide you with extraordinary care, he should avoid doing something that makes you feel bad.

Posted By: unwritten Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by LeizleK
What if? What if a woman could get passed her feelings of insecurity to see from the perspective of the husband who likes to see beautiful women in photos? Whether they be completely clothed, scantily clad, or nude...
If the husband genuinely fulfills all his wife's needs, their marriage has been mostly a happy one...but, he engages in independent behavior when it involves looking at beautiful women photos on the internet...first in secret, but now known by the wife (& she disagrees with some of the photos)
What then? He feels he is doing nothing wrong, and that the wife is making an issue out of a non issue. Are her feelings of betrayal, insecurity, etc her problem because she fails to see from his perspective? Are wives supposed to overlook their looking? He says he's not lusting, he's admiring their beauty, nothing more. He enjoys seeing "perfectly shaped" women, as well as larger women...all beautiful in their own way - the way they were created.

Who's right in this case?
Policy of Joint Agreement?
Not engaging in independent behavior, but at the expense of the one who believes he's done nothing wrong?
Is it that he's selfish? Or is she being selfish because she's jealous he looks at beautiful women photos?

What if...wife just likes to shop. She spends loads of money and goes into debt because she shops. Husband doesn't like it, it makes him feel disrespected, like he can't trust her, upset over the debt...But it is *normal* for women to want to shop, right? She says she isn't trying to put them in debt, she just likes the sales, she cannot resist the sales! Can't he get past his feelings and just accept that what she is doing is perfectly normal and many women like to do it? She used to hide it, but now it is out in the open and she doesn't think she is doing anything wrong. Can't he just overlook her shopping and get over it already? Isn't he the one being selfish for not being enthusiastic about her shopping??? I mean, it brings her such joy, shouldn't he want to see her be happy???

I am trying to get you to see from another perspective how silly it is to blame yourself for being uncomfortable with a behavior that is very damaging to your marriage. I will tell you without a shadow of a doubt, it will not work. You will not be able to to 'will' yourself into being enthusiastic about such a disrespectful and immoral behavior. Even if you convince yourself that to be a good wife you should just accept and put up with this (wrong!), over time it will cause you great resentment and leave a huge hole in your marriage that will be more difficult to recover from as the days tick by.

Posted By: Prisca Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 04:47 PM
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If the husband genuinely fulfills all his wife's needs, their marriage has been mostly a happy one...but, he engages in independent behavior ...

What then? He feels he is doing nothing wrong, and that the wife is making an issue out of a non issue.
If the husband is engaging in independent behavior, he is by definition "doing something wrong." It doesn't matter what the independent behavior is, or the morality of the activity -- it could be eating a tuna fish sandwich, as exasperating at that may be. If it is independent behavior, it is hurting his wife, and it is hurting his marriage.
Posted By: Prisca Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 04:48 PM
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He says he's not lusting, he's admiring their beauty, nothing more. He enjoys seeing "perfectly shaped" women, as well as larger women...all beautiful in their own way - the way they were created.
I call bull.
Posted By: markos Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
He says he's not lusting, he's admiring their beauty, nothing more. He enjoys seeing "perfectly shaped" women, as well as larger women...all beautiful in their own way - the way they were created.
I call bull.

He's not married to all these womenly shapes. Just one of them.
Posted By: Prisca Re: I am a love buster - 11/21/17 05:05 PM
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He says he's not lusting, he's admiring their beauty, nothing more.
Then it will be easy to stop and replace with an activity that is not offensive to his wife.

Unless he is compelled by some force to admire these women? Compelled to the point that he would hide it from his wife?
Something that makes it hard for him to not want to stop the behavior ... I don't know, like testosterone?

Men LOOK at women for one reason. They ADMIRE the perfect shape and the beauty for one reason.

Husband does not believe looking at photos of other women, whether clothed or naked, is an issue - he states that he believes women are beautiful and God�s creation and that men are pre-wired to enjoy looking at women, very visual. He thinks pornography is disgusting, though some of the photos he looks at are from PlayBoy and the like. Most photos have an art quality about them. His degree was a minor in Art, so he is art minded.
With that said, he does not feel it should be an issue to me that he looks at these photos. We�ve been married 31 years and I just found out he�s done this for years. I felt the way most women do, hurt, betrayed, loss of trust.
Our marriage has been mostly good -though I would say we could�ve learned how not to make selfish demands and disrespectful judgements on a more consistent basis.
The Policy of Joint Agreement is that we shouldn�t do anything that we aren�t both enthusiastic about. We need a win win situation.
I am not opposed to looking for artful nude photos as long as lust doesn�t accompany it. But, since he�s done this in secret for so long, How can I know he isn�t lusting for other women? There has been some issue with erectile disfunction just this year, but may also have to do with age. I am not at all comfortable with him really enjoying looking at these photos, as it makes me feel unattractive, undesirable, and insecure.
I�ve expressed this to my husband, but he says I�m making an issue out of a non-issue.
How do we handle this? It�s not pornography...at least that is not how he views it.
Suggestions? I don�t want to be the source of his unhappiness, but I also don�t want to be blindly allowing something that shouldn�t be allowed.
Leizie, did you see the other responses to your question? The Policy of Joint Agreement is:

"Never do anything without an enthusiastic
agreement between you and your spouse"

That means he should stop doing it. If he continues doing it knowing how much it hurts you, that means you have much bigger problems in the marriage. This probably is not the only example of thoughtless, independent behavior in your marriage, though, is it?
I have not seen other responses to my question, only this response from MelodyLane.
Off the top of my head, this is the #1 item that seems to be thoughtless, independent behavior. It also seems that even though he says he will stop, just so he doesn�t have to hear me get all upset, he has continued to do it...going so far as to delete history.

I asked him if it�s �just art� then why is he hiding it? Is it because of my reaction?
If I can display it in my home, on my walls, then it can be considered art, yes?
If I would question displaying it in my home (sensual, provocative) then it is likely not something he should be perusing...yes? Would he be ok with displaying it in our home? Would guests be repulsed by it? Or find it artful? What is the intent of the photo?

Needless to say, he is growing tired of this same conversation continuing to crop up.
Though, I keep pressing the issue, not letting it slide.

My goal is not to hurt my husband. It is to determine if what he says is true - can I trust that he is not lustfully seeking these photos online? I don�t want to wrongfully assume he is, making a disrespectful judgement of his character. I must have some kind of proof that it is lustful viewing. The trust is broken because of hiding what he�s been doing for years, and by telling me he will stop, but he doesn�t stop.
You don't need proof that it is lustful viewing. He only needs to know that it upsets you and therefore stop viewing those images. Wether or not the images are art is irrelevant.

Not looking at pictures of naked women will not hurt him in any way.
Originally Posted by LeizleK
I have not seen other responses to my question, only this response from MelodyLane.

Read your entire thread. There are many other comments.

Quote
Off the top of my head, this is the #1 item that seems to be thoughtless, independent behavior. It also seems that even though he says he will stop, just so he doesn�t have to hear me get all upset, he has continued to do it...going so far as to delete history.

So he has added dishonesty to to independent behavior.

Quote
I asked him if it�s �just art� then why is he hiding it? Is it because of my reaction?
If I can display it in my home, on my walls, then it can be considered art, yes?
If I would question displaying it in my home (sensual, provocative) then it is likely not something he should be perusing...yes? Would he be ok with displaying it in our home? Would guests be repulsed by it? Or find it artful? What is the intent of the photo?

Needless to say, he is growing tired of this same conversation continuing to crop up.
Though, I keep pressing the issue, not letting it slide.

That is good that you don't let it slide. But I wouldnt' argue about it. Just tell him it hurts you and ask him to stop hurting you.

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My goal is not to hurt my husband. It is to determine if what he says is true - can I trust that he is not lustfully seeking these photos online? I don�t want to wrongfully assume he is, making a disrespectful judgement of his character.I must have some kind of proof that it is lustful viewing. The trust is broken because of hiding what he�s been doing for years, and by telling me he will stop, but he doesn�t stop.

It doesn't matter if he admits he is "viewing lustfully" or not, [he is but that is not relevant] what matters is that it hurts you. He needs to stop hurting you and stop viewing the pictures. It is not disrespectful to ask him to stop doing something that hurts you. It is disrespectful of him to continue doing it.

I would put spyware on his phone [or whatever he uses] that he doesn't know about and find out if he has stopped. You can also place an app on his phone that will block any nude, inappropriate viewing. You should not trust blindly.
Originally Posted by LeizleK
INeedless to say, he is growing tired of this same conversation continuing to crop up.

Then there is a simple solution, he can stop doing what causes the conversation.
Thank you for your input. You�re so right in your statement - that if it hurts me, then he should discontinue.
MelodyLane - all I see are your responses. How do I view others.
Did you scroll up? All you have to do is scroll up. It is all on the same thread. Try opening wiht this link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=182020&Number=3001195#Post3001195
Originally Posted by LeizleK
Thank you for your input. You�re so right in your statement - that if it hurts me, then he should discontinue.

Right. So there is no point in getting lost in futile debates about whether he views them "lustfully" or not. It doesn't matter if he admits it or not. What matters is if it hurts you. It hurts you so he needs to knock it off.

He is in a long habit of viewing nudes and you will need to hold him accountable. I would do that by secretly installing spyware on his phone.
Posted By: LeizleK Re: I am a love buster - 11/22/17 04:39 PM
Thank you for this response. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Posted By: LeizleK Re: I am a love buster - 11/22/17 04:45 PM
I�m not sure how or why it was posted under this thread. I am not tech savvy...new to the forum and trying to figure it out. Sorry for butting in.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I am a love buster - 11/22/17 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by LeizleK
I�m not sure how or why it was posted under this thread. I am not tech savvy...new to the forum and trying to figure it out. Sorry for butting in.

The moderators moved your post and it's responses to your own thread. Did you read them? You got some really good advice and I would encourage you to read and respond to the people who took their time to post. smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: I am a love buster - 11/22/17 11:15 PM
Are you going to put spyware on his devices?
Posted By: EmDee1 Re: I am a love buster - 11/29/17 02:40 AM
1. Give him one last warning--don't whine, just state your position--and then quietly put spyware on his devices. If you find he is--let's call this what it is--surfing porn, leave him.

2. He is browbeating, shaming, and goading you into questioning yourself and your reactions. There is nothing wrong with you. He is abusing you--gaslighting you--and you need to call him on it. You have a right to feel what you feel and to react how you react.

Been there, done that. Just stop.
Posted By: LeizleK Re: I am a love buster - 12/04/17 07:22 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. Installed spyware on his device, may add a second device as well. Unfortunately, I it has to be �backed up to iCloud� before I can see what is happening. He has a knack for not backing up as often as I would like.
I will post once I find out more.
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