Marriage Builders
Summary: Both early 40s, no kids, married 12 years ago after a six-month courtship. No affair on either side. Separated four months. Husband too hurt after years of neglect and miscommunication to try again.

My husband G told me at Christmas last year that he was very unhappy and wanted to divorce. He said that I never want to do anything with him, I won't compromise, I live my own independent life, and we were nothing more than roommates. He said that he had asked me for a divorce twice in the past six years and I'd refused to accept it, but now he was just done. He believed I didn't love him either and would be relieved that one of us bit the bullet and got going on the divorce process (we can't legally get divorced until we have been separated for 2 years).

This is not how I recall the past six years and I certainly had no idea that he'd actually wanted a divorce in the past, let alone thought about that and refused to cooperate. I thought we just had the usual ups and downs but then things had stabilised and we were solid. Turns out the stable period began when he gave up on fixing things with me and resigned himself to ending the marriage. He never really told me how he was feeling except a couple of times during angry arguments, and I always wrote that off to the heat of the moment since it wasn't mentioned again afterwards. He hates conflict and was just stewing on things rather than being open with me, to the point where he has now got moderate depression because all his feelings are locked down so tight (he refused medication for this and said he's only depressed because he is still trapped in our marriage). I'm really bad at picking up on emotional/social cues and hints, but he was just hinting rather than being blunt and then feeling like I was ignoring his wishes on purpose. I was truly oblivious to most of them.

Because I was so shocked and so clearly still loved him and didn't want a divorce at all, he agreed to see a counsellor before doing anything further. We found an EFT counsellor locally and had weekly sessions for two months, but G felt from the start that it was pointless and his feelings never improved during or after our sessions. It was all talk about why we felt bad and how we were hurting each other, but no practical advice about how to reconnect. After ten sessions he refused to attend any more because he was just feeling worse, like he was failing by not falling back in love with me. A month after that he moved out. I thought he was just moving out to get some space, and we drew up a separation agreement for how we would both behave while he was under a different roof, to be reviewed in a few months to decide what we'd do next, but it subsequently became clear that he intended it to be a permanent split right from the start despite what he'd agreed to. He was shocked and resentful when I tried to keep spending time with him and working on things after he moved out, even though he had already agreed to have regular "dates" with me. His friends had been telling him to stop spending time with me because it looked like we were still working on things and he needed to draw a line under our marriage and move on. He cares very much about what his friends think of him and public opinion has always been a big factor in what he will or won't do.

I know that I was not a loving wife to G as I did not feel loved or good enough or entertaining enough for him. He is an extreme extrovert and people-pleaser, and I am a very independent introvert with a selfish streak a mile wide. We never learned how to reconcile those two things, and when he pushed for me to be constantly sociable and outgoing, I pushed him away and withdrew completely. He then turned to his circle of friends to meet his social needs, spending long hours at the pub at lunchtimes and evenings and weekends. I often didn't know where he was until he stumbled home at bedtime, and he would then sit up playing computer games until after I'd fallen asleep. Our sex life was virtually non-existent as we were never in bed and awake at the same time, and I felt like second-best to his more exciting friends so I did not want to be used for the one thing he couldn't get from them. We spiraled into complete disconnection.

Now, after nearly four months of separation, we still have lots of contact as we work at the same place, still own the house together where I live (he wants to get that sold but we haven't begun the process yet), and we have friends and social events in common. When we see each other it is usually very friendly and I know he still enjoys my company. He is relaxed around me so long as he doesn't think I'm trying to persuade him to change his mind. One whiff of that and he's off with his guard up so high I can barely see the top of his head.

Since the start of April I have done all the usual wrong things (begging, arguing, using logic, putting on pressure to spend time with me, etc.), and finally found some better approaches. I really want to reconnect with him as well as change the things about myself that were causing problems. Through various searches and desperate attempts to find something to improve this, I've ended up here on this site, but he won't join me in trying to save our marriage and I know the coaching here is for couples, not singles. G says he needs time and space to figure out what went wrong and where to go next, and he has no interest at all in trying to fix things with me because he is too tired and hurt after years of frustration and neglect.

He is not having an affair but has been leaning on his close friends instead of me to have his emotional needs met for at least two years now. It might as well be an affair for all the damage that was caused when we allowed that to become the way we ran our marriage.

Is there anything I can do by myself at this late stage that actually has a hope of improving things? I am trying to change and improve myself for the greater good, but am not sure if I'm wasting my time or not as far as our marriage is concerned.
Hi Norah, welcome to Marriage Builders. It seems very curious that your husband would say he had asked for divorce 6 years ago and you don't remember this. Can you explain this disconnect? And why wouldn't he have just divorced you at that time? He didn't need your permission to get a divorce. This makes me very suspicious. Have you actually investigated to rule out an affair? There are a few red flags here, especially the seeming rewriting of history.
Yes, I can explain the disconnect - it was a combination of his conflict-avoiding style and my inability to pick up on hints. We had a couple of big arguments over the years, not about anything that I can recall in detail now, but I do remember him saying things like, "This can't continue." One time he did say that we'd end up divorced if we carried on like this - I was horrified that he would use such a threat to get his way, and refused to continue that conversation. The next day it all seemed to have blown over. In hindsight of course it was a massive red flag that things were badly wrong between us, but I was too stupid and overconfident in our love to realise it. He hates conflict so much that he never sat me down in the cold light of day and told me how unhappy he was, but he quietly assumed that I knew he was unhappy, understood that "this can't continue" meant "we must divorce", didn't care, and refused to change what was wrong. Meanwhile idiot oblivious me thought he'd seen that I was right (since he had stopped the argument and didn't mention it again) so just carried on.

He has been carrying a lot of pain for years and it has been building up inside him but I was not aware. I knew things weren't ideal between us and hated that he spent so much time away from me, but I thought that I was doing the right thing by making sure he still went out and had fun. I thought that was giving him a happy life and so we would have a happy marriage. Of course now I know how wrong and damaging that was.

Yes I have investigated and ruled out an affair. Of course he had plenty of opportunity to have an affair if he'd wanted but what he wanted was me. I was too selfish and ignorant to know how to negotiate so we could spend social time together without it being totally overwhelming for me. He always wants bigger and better and more - even if I tried to do something like throw a dinner party for a small group he'd turn it into an open invitation for 20 people with drinks going on until midnight, that sort of thing. I planned a sophisticated black-and-white themed party for my 40th birthday and he told everybody it was a costume party so half of them turned up in ridiculous outfits - he loves costume parties and couldn't grasp the difference between a theme and a costume, and wouldn't listen to me when I tried to rein him in. He always wanted me with him but I just wouldn't go because I was afraid that it would be too much for me and it often was. During our EFT counselling we realised that this wasn't an insurmountable problem and found healthy ways to deal with it (e.g. he would stay with me at a large party until I found a small group I could comfortably converse with, rather than just ditching me at the door and running off to talk to every single person there), but the damage was already done. He had concluded that I didn't want to spend time with him.
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He always wanted me with him but I just wouldn't go because I was afraid that it would be too much for me and it often was.

Norah, thanks for the explanation. What went wrong is that you both carried on independent lifestyles instead of creating an interdependent marriage. By expecting you to go with him to all these social outings, he created incompatibility in your marriage. You tried to do something you didn't like doing, going to social gatherings but people who sacrifice will never sacrifice for long. Your husband has an expectation that you should do whatever he wants to do and if you don't, that you don't love him. That is the recipe for disaster.

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He had concluded that I didn't want to spend time with him.

Would he be open to doing things with you that you BOTH love doing, rather than things only HE loves?
You are spot on about what we were doing wrong. I understand that now and would really like to fix it, but he's adamant that his feelings can never change because he is too hurt to give me or us another chance. He said if I keep trying I'll just end up as much of a mess as he is after he tried for years and couldn't fix things. We're both painfully aware now that what he was trying (bigger, more pressure, shoving feelings aside to avoid conflict) couldn't ever have worked, but he has lost the love and now doesn't want to do what is needed to bring it back.

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Would he be open to doing things with you that you BOTH love doing, rather than things only HE loves?
That might be my only opportunity to let him have fun with me again, but he won't do much with just me. It'd have to be a group scenario that was happening anyway.

I suppose I'm wondering if anyone has ever reconciled after this type of split, and how they managed it. What is the most helpful way for me to approach it when I am the only one right now who wants it? I think we could be wonderful together again and we bring out the best in each other when we're in a good place. He's just resisting really hard at the moment.
Norah, I see motivation as your biggest issue. The problem you have is that it is not helpful at all for a woman to fight for a marriage. It wears her down emotionally and is almost never effective. [it can also be very unattractive to the target] Not so when a man fights for his marriage. He can go longer emotionally and it often does work. Because of that, I would stop pushing it. It is just not effective or helpful to your emotional health.

What I would do is send him a letter telling him that you love him and that you know now you were both taking the wrong approach to a happy marriage. Your independent lifestyles created incompatibility. You have since learned there is a better way and that is to create a lifestyle that suits you both. The other element of this plan is to meet each others emotional needs during several dates every week. If you would both follow this program, you would fall back in love. But again, he has to be motivated.

Another thing you can try is emailing Dr Harley at the radio show and enlisting his help in motivating your husband. [it is free] If you will send him an email with your phone # he can give you some ideas. Sometimes he will offer to email with the reluctant spouse. Instructions here

Read this: incompatibility and THE POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION
Thank you for that. As it happens, I already wrote him a letter (email) two days ago saying a lot of what you suggested. I told him what I'd learned from reading Dr Harley's articles about how we were approaching things the wrong way in the past. I said that I'd learned we should have spent way more time together doing things we both wanted to, and that we could learn negotiation skills to figure out how to spend our time enjoyably together rather than one person deciding or both of us living independently. I also said that we could build up love again by spending lots of time together having fun and doing loving actions until the feelings joined in. And I said that I knew now that it was incredibly harmful for me to send him off with his friends all the time because he no longer associated the joy with me but with them, so we should have found different ways to have fun together.

He is away all week and doesn't have network access most of the time (very remote area out of cellphone range) so he skimmed through the email while he was in a town that has cell service, but has not properly replied yet. We spoke briefly on the phone and he said that it's great I'm learning how to be better in future, but I know he thinks that it will benefit me with some future partner, not with him. He's said this before. He can see that I'm growing and changing but doesn't see how it relates to him any more even though he knows I don't want to split up or divorce. He also agreed that he had more fun with his friends and I was not exciting in comparison so that made him realise we were wrong for each other. (We did used to have lots of fun so I don't believe that's true, we just lost each other over the years.)

I suppose I should wait and see if and how he replies to my email. He did say he would but it might take a while.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Another thing you can try is emailing Dr Harley at the radio show and enlisting his help in motivating your husband. [it is free] If you will send him an email with your phone # he can give you some ideas. Sometimes he will offer to email with the reluctant spouse. Instructions here

Read this: incompatibility and THE POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION

I've done both those things now. The incompatibility link was particularly interesting because I can see that G would really resist the idea of pulling back from his friends at all, even if it was to spend time doing something else that's fun, because he hates to let people down (even though none of his friends would have a problem with him backing off a bit in order to save his marriage). He'd have to be very motivated to give up even a little bit of his social routine, and that could be an insurmountable hurdle since he's not at all motivated right now.


I emailed the radio show to ask what the best approach would be to motivate him to join me in trying the Marriage Builders programme. I wonder if I will hear anything back from them.
Norah, what exactly did you do to rule out an affair? I am not convinced that there is not someone else in the picture by the way he is acting. There are many red flags in your initial post, from saying he ‘needs space’ to seemingly rewriting your history. Even now, his reluctance to do anything to reconcile seems fishy.
He's not having an affair. He's too sad and broken and is suffering from depression and insomnia. I did ask recently if he had become more than friends with a woman we both work with, since they spend a lot of time together, but they mostly just blow off steam and complain about work with a couple of other people. I work at the same place, know everybody concerned, and believe what he told me. He said that he does like her and maybe in future he will want to start something with her, but he's sexually and emotionally in no position for another relationship (his phrasing, not mine) and probably won't be for a while. He has no reason to lie to me since we are already separated and he has already said he wants a divorce, legally/financially it makes zero difference to the outcome if he is seeing somebody else now (the courts here don't care about that at all), and it might make me quit struggling to reconnect with him if I thought he had moved on to somebody new.

I wouldn't blame him if he did have an affair or is having one, because I wasn't meeting his needs or making him feel loved, but it would be completely out of character for him and there's no reason at all to think that he did anything like this while we were together or is doing it now. My behaviour and our inability to really make each other feel loved and supported is what killed our relationship, not him falling for somebody else. He is just too hurt and burnt out to try again because he doesn't believe that love can come back once it's gone, and he "proved" that to himself by not falling back in love with me during our 10 weeks of EFT counselling.
Affairs don't start in the bedroom, they start by spending time talking about personal subjects. So there is probably something going on that triggered him to move out instead of staying in the marriage, like he has done the past years.
It could well turn into an affair, yes, once he feels ready to move on. He has been getting his emotional needs in general met by her and other friends (not just her) for a long time now. They do talk about personal subjects as well as work, but I know they aren't having an affair yet and there has not been one in the past. It might well be just around the corner and there's nothing I can do about that since he says we're done anyway.

His insomnia got really bad after we stopped going to counselling, and we were both stressed and unhappy from trying so hard and getting nowhere. He turned 40 in March and I think that milestone combined with being miserable was the final straw that convinced him that he had to leave, which he did two weeks after his birthday party. I think he might have given himself until his birthday to turn things around and felt that time was slipping away from him and he couldn't stick with me and our failed marriage any longer.

The thing that drove us to the counselling itself was us having a big drink-fuelled row while we were away on our Christmas holidays (we'd had a lovely day at the wineries in the sunshine but it all turned to custard that evening) and he said he wanted a divorce so many times that I couldn't possibly pretend it would blow over. We both cried all night in our sleeping bags. It was really awful. But as a result we talked openly and we realised that we'd been experiencing things very differently and there had been some specific incidents in the past few months where he felt very rejected and let down by me. I hadn't been paying enough attention to realise that those incidents were even noteworthy, let alone really devastating for him. Having a horrible argument on a holiday in a place he didn't want to visit (long story -- I thought he did want to go but he was just placating me rather than asserting his own wishes) was the last straw for him. He only agreed to counselling because I was so shocked and he started to wonder if he'd misjudged things when he concluded I didn't love him.
Originally Posted by Norah
He's too sad and broken and is suffering from depression and insomnia.

I've never heard Dr. Harley say that sadness and depression was a deterrent to having an affair.

Plenty of people who are depressed or unhappy end up in affairs. It happens all the time.

Originally Posted by Norah
He has been getting his emotional needs in general met by her and other friends (not just her) for a long time now. They do talk about personal subjects as well as work, but I know they aren't having an affair yet and there has not been one in the past.

This sounds very much like it is an affair NOW (and has been going on for a while) and would very much explain his push for divorce, selling the house, etc. Dr. Harley has said when people want to separate they already have someone in the wings.

I hope you realize that MOST people do not want to hear from us there might be an affair. It is very NORMAL to be convinced there is no affair.

Often posters want to delve right into the marital issues. They want to skim over the snooping and affair part of the program.

This is the problem...if there is a CURRENT AFFAIR, addressing marital issues won't do anything.

Can you tell us exactly how you are so sure there is no affair? Since (1) your H has moved out, (2) your H and this woman work together and (3) spend time outside of work together, this makes it even harder to rule out an affair. Have you had a VAR in an office or car so that you can hear their private conversations? What have you done specifically to investigate?
Hmmmmm, okay. I did know before I posted, because I've read plenty of other threads on this site, that someone would latch on to the affair question like a dog with a bone and would insist that there must be one and I'm just in denial.

There's no affair. He has been leaning on other people, and one woman who he sees often because we work together, but it's not sexual so far. He's just been having fun and of course I look like less fun in comparison so she does look very appealing in comparison. He freely admitted that he might take things further with her in future and I hate that but can understand how he's reached that point. Our marriage failed because of internal reasons, largely of my making but not entirely. G has now given up hope. He kept trying (in ways that we now know could not have worked) until he made himself depressed and insomniac and completely miserable. He wanted to fall back in love with me but couldn't feel anything. He can't really feel any emotions properly now because he has shut down emotionally and he's afraid that's permanent because he's so stressed and unhappy. I did encourage him to get professional help and antidepressants but he has always been averse to taking prescription medication and believes it won't help anyway because our marriage is the cause.

If you want to call his friendship an affair so we can move on to helping me to fix things, go ahead. I wouldn't define it as one but the end result was still to make him feel less loving towards me and think she might be a more suitable partner in future, so what does it matter what we call it?

I'd still love some practical advice on restoring the love we used to have. I know that me not socialising with him was a problem so I'll be doing more of that where I can. We have a couple of things with mutual friends in the next fortnight. I'll be throwing myself into those with gusto!
Originally Posted by Norah
Hmmmmm, okay. I did know before I posted, because I've read plenty of other threads on this site, that someone would latch on to the affair question like a dog with a bone and would insist that there must be one and I'm just in denial.

I am that dog with a bone. [and so are most veterans who have experience on this forum] The reason is because it is almost always an affair. I realize it's hard to see the red flags when you a) don't want to see them and b) have no experience at such detection but let me assure you the red flags are pretty obvious after being on this forum and reading a few thousand case histories. I wish I had a dollar for every person who adamantly denied there was an affair only to find out there WAS. They refused to believe it until we convinced them to snoop.

What concerns me about your situation is that you seem pretty certain this is all your fault even though it's obvious, from what you have told me, that his independent lifestyle was the cause of the incompatibility. Yet you are convinced it is almost all your own fault. Is that because of gaslighting? I don't know. I do know you should keep an open mind about it and do some serious snooping. I doubt it will change the outcome of your situation, but you do need to know the truth.

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I'd still love some practical advice on restoring the love we used to have. I know that me not socialising with him was a problem so I'll be doing more of that where I can. !

The problem was his socializing lifestyle that was done without you. That is only a solution if you LOVE to socialize, which I doubt. If not, it is just going along with his independent, one sided lifestyle, which is not a solution at all. Even so, you need to seriously rule out an affair. i know you think your H would have nothing to hide anyway, but I don't believe that. It seems very important to him to blame YOU for this breakup so the discovery of an affair would ruin that narrative.
Originally Posted by Norah
Hmmmmm, okay. I did know before I posted, because I've read plenty of other threads on this site, that someone would latch on to the affair question like a dog with a bone and would insist that there must be one and I'm just in denial.


You've been asked a couple of times HOW you ruled out an affair?

We've heard that your H is too broken and sad and is not ready to move on and we've heard that you "know" there is not an affair. These are not adequate ways to rule out infidelity. You won't find anyone here who will tell you that.

If you refuse to snoop, then tell us that.

Originally Posted by Norah
If you want to call his friendship an affair so we can move on to helping me to fix things, go ahead.

We know that you are not happy because you are not getting the advice that you want.

We don't pat people on the back and ignore red flags when we see them. This site doesn't work that way. Sorry.

People often only identify an affair if the sexual component is there. An affair starts in most cases before it gets physical. The steps leading to the physical part of the affair are often brushed aside because friendship should be no problem and jealousy is bad. An affair doesn't happen suddenly and unexpected, but develops by meeting emotional needs before it gets physical.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The problem was his socializing lifestyle that was done without you. That is only a solution if you LOVE to socialize, which I doubt. If not, it is just going along with his independent, one sided lifestyle, which is not a solution at all.

I do love to socialise, just not to the same level that he does. He always wanted me to go with him but I find it exhausting to be out and a social butterfly every single night and all weekend, which is his preference. Instead of finding a compromise, I left him to socialise without me while I stayed home almost all the time because it seemed like the easiest option. I could certainly have gone out more than I did, and I had no valid reason for refusing all the invitations that I did. I got into a bad habit of being selfish and just taking without giving.

He didn't give up or modify his own lifestyle to accommodate mine either so there is fault on his side too, and he should have been more open with me about his feelings before things got to this stage. We'd need to address that in order to really fix things.
Originally Posted by Norah
[I left him to socialise without me while I stayed home almost all the time because it seemed like the easiest option. I could certainly have gone out more than I did, and I had no valid reason for refusing all the invitations that I did. I got into a bad habit of being selfish and just taking without giving.

You mean sacrificing, don't you? If it had been an activity you enjoyed, you would have gone. People aren't "selfish" about doing things they want to do. The fact that you didn't find activities that appealed to you both is why the marriage became incompatible.

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He didn't give up or modify his own lifestyle to accommodate mine either so there is fault on his side too, and he should have been more open with me about his feelings before things got to this stage. We'd need to address that in order to really fix things.

I would agree. But no marriage will withstand the practice of sacrifice for long. It just causes incompatibility, which is why I don't understand your desire to go out and socialize now.
As for the affair question, I'm not refusing to believe he's having an affair merely because I don't want it to be true. I actually expected that he would say yes when I asked him, but he said no and I believe him. I don't need to snoop beyond what I have already done (follow both of them on social media (we are all "friends" anyway), watch their behaviour at the office and at social events we're all at, discuss their relationship with mutual friends who know us all very well and would be honest with me but have said they really don't think there's anything going on, and ask my husband outright). I believe there is no affair. I also believe he's on the brink of one because she makes him feel good and they have fun but he hasn't crossed any boundary yet. She is definitely a threat to our marriage and has been for a long time, because he has so much fun with her, so I still need advice on dealing with their friendship-becoming-more.

With no actual affair to expose and their close friendship already being public knowledge, it's not helpful to tell me to expose anything. What could I expose that isn't already out there? Everybody who knows him socially and at work already knows he spends loads of time with her. She is single and he has left me so there would be no shame associated with them getting together, and our workplace has no policy against relationships unless they interfere with work. There is literally nothing I could say about them that would be new to anyone who knows them. Slinging mud around would achieve nothing but making me look like a jealous ex.

I'd like some positive steps to take and am asking for those.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You mean sacrificing, don't you? If it had been an activity you enjoyed, you would have gone. People aren't "selfish" about doing things they want to do. The fact that you didn't find activities that appealed to you both is why the marriage became incompatible.

[snip]

But no marriage will withstand the practice of sacrifice for long. It just causes incompatibility, which is why I don't understand your desire to go out and socialize now.

I do enjoy socialising and always have. But I am an introvert and need time alone to recharge. My husband is an extrovert and recharges by being with other people. He pressured me to come out all the time and I reacted by refusing to come out at all. Fault on both sides but not due to a genuine dislike of socialising on my part. I'd just rather go out for a couple of hours and then come home, or go out twice a week instead of six times. He's the opposite and finds it really boring to just sit at home more than one or two nights a week, especially if we are together but not interacting with each other (e.g. watching TV). I can understand that but didn't realise until recently just how important his social life is to him. I thought he was okay with compromising but now know he was giving in and giving up in order to make me happy, then finding me really boring because he wanted to be out and I wasn't interacting with him. I thought we were just having a nice quiet time together like my own parents do in their happy marriage. He thought we had nothing to say to each other any more, like his parents do in their unhappy marriage. We saw the same behaviour but interpreted it very differently.
I would add a caveat about socializing. Good marriages only socialize in strict moderation. Most of their recreational time is spent together ALONE. When you are out socializing, you aren't meeting each others emotional needs. For example, my husband and I probably socialize 4-6 hours a MONTH. We don't have a lot of time to socialize because it cuts into our own time. We like spending time with our friends and family, but we aren't going to allow that to interfere with our own dates.

Socializing is fine, as long as it doesn't cut into YOUR time.
Originally Posted by Norah
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You mean sacrificing, don't you? If it had been an activity you enjoyed, you would have gone. People aren't "selfish" about doing things they want to do. The fact that you didn't find activities that appealed to you both is why the marriage became incompatible.

[snip]

But no marriage will withstand the practice of sacrifice for long. It just causes incompatibility, which is why I don't understand your desire to go out and socialize now.

I do enjoy socialising and always have. But I am an introvert and need time alone to recharge. My husband is an extrovert and recharges by being with other people. He pressured me to come out all the time and I reacted by refusing to come out at all. Fault on both sides but not due to a genuine dislike of socialising on my part. I'd just rather go out for a couple of hours and then come home, or go out twice a week instead of six times. He's the opposite and finds it really boring to just sit at home more than one or two nights a week, especially if we are together but not interacting with each other (e.g. watching TV). I can understand that but didn't realise until recently just how important his social life is to him. I thought he was okay with compromising but now know he was giving in and giving up in order to make me happy, then finding me really boring because he wanted to be out and I wasn't interacting with him. I thought we were just having a nice quiet time together like my own parents do in their happy marriage. He thought we had nothing to say to each other any more, like his parents do in their unhappy marriage. We saw the same behaviour but interpreted it very differently.


The soluton is not to go out and socialize more, but to find activities that you BOTH love. It should be WIN/WIN, not WIN/LOSE. One of the problems here is that his socializing IS more important than his marriage. Anything that comes before your marriage will come between it. By asking you to go out alot and do something you don't like was to gain at your expense.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The fact that you didn't find activities that appealed to you both is why the marriage became incompatible.

Yes, that is completely correct. We did find some common ground towards the end (board gaming) and I wish we'd found that earlier because it is a perfect mix of being with people but not interacting face to face every single minute. He has always gone out gaming but I thought it was computer gaming or Dungeons'n'Dragons which I don't enjoy. It was only very recently that I discovered there are lots of other types of board game and I really love a lot of them. We play board games very well together and both enjoy it. We still do that sometimes now even though it's not at home but at gaming evenings elsewhere.
Originally Posted by Norah
As for the affair question, I'm not refusing to believe he's having an affair merely because I don't want it to be true. I actually expected that he would say yes when I asked him, but he said no and I believe him. I don't need to snoop beyond what I have already done (follow both of them on social media (we are all "friends" anyway), watch their behaviour at the office and at social events we're all at, discuss their relationship with mutual friends who know us all very well and would be honest with me but have said they really don't think there's anything going on, and ask my husband outright). I believe there is no affair. I also believe he's on the brink of one because she makes him feel good and they have fun but he hasn't crossed any boundary yet. She is definitely a threat to our marriage and has been for a long time, because he has so much fun with her, so I still need advice on dealing with their friendship-becoming-more.

With no actual affair to expose and their close friendship already being public knowledge, it's not helpful to tell me to expose anything. What could I expose that isn't already out there? Everybody who knows him socially and at work already knows he spends loads of time with her. She is single and he has left me so there would be no shame associated with them getting together, and our workplace has no policy against relationships unless they interfere with work. There is literally nothing I could say about them that would be new to anyone who knows them. Slinging mud around would achieve nothing but making me look like a jealous ex.

I'd like some positive steps to take and am asking for those.

So in other words you haven't investigated and are asking us to give you advice based on a lack of facts.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
The soluton is not to go out and socialize more, but to find activities that you BOTH love. It should be WIN/WIN, not WIN/LOSE. One of the problems here is that his socializing IS more important than his marriage. Anything that comes before your marriage will come between it. By asking you to go out alot and do something you don't like was to gain at your expense.

Yes, and I bitterly regret not asking for help at the time to know how to negotiate and figure out a way to find those activities. We tried what we thought would work (sacrificing for each other) and when that didn't work we stopped trying to find new things. We got into a damaging habit of him going out and me staying home, rather than keep trying different ways to find new activities that we both liked. He wouldn't give up his socialising to sit home with me, and I wouldn't risk exhaustion by joining him all the time, and we didn't compromise.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
So in other words you haven't investigated and are asking us to give you advice based on a lack of facts.
I have investigated and am satisfied that I have the facts, which I have shared with you. No affair yet but a very high risk of one about to happen.
The strategy to save your marriage is completely different if there is an ongoing affair compared to when there is none. Because you are a woman it is harder to win your husband back by fighting for him. A man fighting to save his marriage looks attractive, a wife doing the same looks desperate(which is not attractive).
You expected him to admit that there is more to the relationship with this mutual 'friend'. What made you think so?

If there is a point of comparison (and there is) your chances to save this are not as good as without another appealing woman meeting his needs.

If you would approach a situation where an (emotional) affair is ongoing, as a 'normal' separation because you grew apart, the strategy that normally would give you the highest chance of saving this, wouldn't have any effect. The red flags are there, your husband did stay in a bad marriage for years, why seperate now? What changed?
Would you share what made you think they were having an affair?

Saving your marriage is a strategic plan. To implement that effectively, you need to rule out an affanr beyond doubt. When you are at war, you don't assume there is no ambush, you actively search the area for ambushes and rule them out. If not, you will get slaughtered without realizing.

If there is an affair he will paint an ugly picture of how you ruined the marriage and what a bad person you are. He will get out of the marriage easy and because you were already separated when it gets physical, everything will be happy peachy when this 'friend' becomes his new love. Just what he deserves after being treated horribly by his bad ex.

It happens all the time. Are you absolutely sure it is not happening to you? Because I am not convinced by your evidence.
I am absolutely convinced, yeah. I wish I wasn't because it reflects so badly on me that we got broken without an affair. I pushed him away over and over. He is an extreme extrovert and I am an introvert almost certainly on the autistic spectrum. We are poles apart in our basic way of thinking even though we generally share the same goals overall and have great fun together when we're not stressed. We had an awful time about five years ago (he moved his parents into our home against my wishes with no end date) and have been pulling in different directions ever since because we both got more demanding in expecting each other to live by our own values. I had a bit of breakdown at that time and withdrew from the world. He still wanted to go out all the time so he ended up going without me if I wouldn't go, and I pushed him away and refused to socialise at all with anyone because I was traumatised for about a year. He didn't take my mental health seriously and suggested I just needed to be "fixed" so I wouldn't be autistic any more and would behave like I used to. I used to be more outgoing because I had control over when and where I went before we got married and didn't get burnt out. In the last few years I got burnt out and never really recovered the fun loving and outgoing person I used to be.

We had four sessions of marriage counseling after his parents finally moved out and he said we needed help to deal with my autistic characteristics, but it didn't fix the core issues of not meeting each other's needs or respecting each other. He refused to go again after four sessions, which I thought was because we had found coping strategies for our conflict. Turns out we hadn't, and were just burying the problems under "regular date night" and "find a hobby together" strategies that didn't last.

After that I got in a habit of saying no more often than yes even though my mental health had recovered. I got lazy and felt I could pick and choose when to make an effort and when to withdraw, even though I knew I was lonely and isolated and rejected. I just didn't realise he felt lonely and rejected too because he was always out with other people. I prioritised my default reaction over what would actually make me and him happy because I was selfish and lazy.

He is at fault too for not considering my feelings or my mental health. This all came out in our second attempt at counselling, after he'd asked for a divorce and declared that he didn't love me any more and couldn't get the feeling back even though he wanted to.
Oh and there was no specific thing that made me ask if he was having an affair except that they were both off work this week and I wondered if they were together so I asked him. They weren't in the same place as it turned out (yes I saw proof of that) but it looked really bad on the surface. He was shocked that I'd think they were a couple or that other people at work would assume that he'd left me for her. He volunteered that he'd probably knock the lunchtime pints on the head for a while so nobody got a false impression. I just hmmmmm'd at that and think he's already in a habit that will be hard to break.
Originally Posted by Norah
We had four sessions of marriage counseling after his parents finally moved out and he said we needed help to deal with my autistic characteristics, but it didn't fix the core issues of not meeting each other's needs or respecting each other. He refused to go again after four sessions, which I thought was because we had found coping strategies for our conflict. Turns out we hadn't, and were just burying the problems under "regular date night" and "find a hobby together" strategies that didn't last..

You hit on one of the main reasons that marriage counseling fails, it focuses on conflict resolution rather than creating romantic love. This is why it was a waste of your time. Sitting around talking in a counselor's office does not save marriages. Nor would a "regular date night" have any effect. It takes date NIGHTS meeting each others emotional needs. I think you want to believe that type of counseling would have helped, but i seriously doubt it. It has a notoriously high failure rate. Couples who are in love don't have an issue with conflict resolution.

Even so, this is all irrelevant to the current state. What should happen now is that you take steps to rule out an affair. I realize you want to believe there is none, but those of us who have a more objective perspective don't think you have really investigated.
Originally Posted by Norah
Oh and there was no specific thing that made me ask if he was having an affair except that they were both off work this week and I wondered if they were together so I asked him. They weren't in the same place as it turned out (yes I saw proof of that) but it looked really bad on the surface. He was shocked that I'd think they were a couple or that other people at work would assume that he'd left me for her. He volunteered that he'd probably knock the lunchtime pints on the head for a while so nobody got a false impression. I just hmmmmm'd at that and think he's already in a habit that will be hard to break.


Asking him is a waste of time. If he were having an affair he would hide it. You need to investigate and stop asking.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
You hit on one of the main reasons that marriage counseling fails, it focuses on conflict resolution rather than creating romantic love. This is why it was a waste of your time. Sitting around talking in a counselor's office does not save marriages. Nor would a "regular date night" have any effect. It takes date NIGHTS meeting each others emotional needs. I think you want to believe that type of counseling would have helped, but i seriously doubt it.

I don't want to believe that at all. I know it didn't help and it actually made things worse because we were papering over the real problems and then feeling bad that we still felt bad. I wish we'd never seen that counsellor. I just didn't have the knowledge at the time to understand that the problems were still there and getting worse.

I think what Marriage Builders instructs would have saved us, and still could if we followed the course, but I don't know how to get my husband on board now when he has made up his mind that it's too late. I wondered about making a bet with him that he can have an easy divorce with no further struggle from me if he tries it for whatever period Dr Harley suggests as a make-or-break.
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Originally Posted by Norah
Oh and there was no specific thing that made me ask if he was having an affair except that they were both off work this week and I wondered if they were together so I asked him. They weren't in the same place as it turned out (yes I saw proof of that) but it looked really bad on the surface. He was shocked that I'd think they were a couple or that other people at work would assume that he'd left me for her.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"Almost everyone denies an affair at first, even when confronted with overpowering evidence. When a woman I counseled broke in on her husband having sex with a neighbor, he tried to convince her that she was having an hallucination.

While seeing your spouse in bed with a lover is sure-fire evidence of an affair, that kind of evidence is usually close to impossible to find. But there are many other less intrusive ways to detect ongoing affairs.

For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions."
here
I appreciate your help but I am certain that there's no affair and it's really unhelpful to keep trying to convince me there is. But thank.you for looking out for me.

What is your advice where there's no affair yet but the husband has been turning to other people to have his social needs met and the wife appears boring in comparison, and he is on the brink of starting an affair with someone who seems like more fun?
Originally Posted by Norah
I appreciate your help but I am certain that there's no affair and it's really unhelpful to keep trying to convince me there is. But thank.you for looking out for me.

What is your advice where there's no affair yet but the husband has been turning to other people to have his social needs met and the wife appears boring in comparison, and he is on the brink of starting an affair with someone who seems like more fun?

First off, I would suggest you might not be the best judge of what is or isn't helpful. Would you agree you are the least objective person on this thread? I am not trying to convince you there IS an affair. We are trying to convince you to INVESTIGATE, which you have not. You have convinced yourself that there is no affair based on very flimsy reasons. It is not fair to ask us to spend our free time helping you when you haven't taken this step.

Step #1 is to rule out an affair. Step #2 would be to follow the advice I already gave you.

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husband has been turning to other people to have his social needs met

Socializing is not an emotional need, per se, but I would agree he has been getting his EN of recreational companionship met outside of marriage. "As soon as one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow. " Dr Bill Harley

I did know this sort of affair-focussed hectoring might happen based on reading other posts, so that's not a surprise. I saw other people driven away for the same reason: prove an affair or we won't help. And it's impossible to prove a negative to strangers on the internet.

Do you only have advice for people with an affair already going on? I need advice for how to prevent an imminent one and repair my marriage.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
We are trying to convince you to INVESTIGATE, which you have not. You have convinced yourself that there is no affair based on very flimsy reasons. It is not fair to ask us to spend our free time helping you when you haven't taken this step.

This is why I am convinced people who refuse to talk about snooping really do NOT want to know the truth....If you investigate, then it would ONLY CONFIRM that there is no affair.

Investigate doesn't only work if there is an affair! It will help you so that you know how to proceed either way. Win-win.
Originally Posted by Norah
I did know this sort of affair-focussed hectoring might happen based on reading other posts, so that's not a surprise.

Did you realize that not only have posters been here for years but that most of us have either spoken or counseled with Dr Harley and/or listened to his radio show?

The advice you are getting from us is the same that you will get from him. When he hears that your H has asked for a divorce, moved out, and is unwilling to work on the marriage, the FIRST THING he will tell you is that you need to rule out an affair, period.

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I saw other people driven away for the same reason: prove an affair or we won't help. And it's impossible to prove a negative to strangers on the internet.

In case it is not clear - whether someone wants to stay and use MB is not a motivation for us to post in a certain way. We post advice in accordance with Dr Harley's teachings and methods. In other words, you can't really shame people into posting different advice to you.

We are not getting paid for this. We are volunteers and we do this in our free time because we are truly trying to help people.

I did investigate. There is no affair. There's a high chance that there soon will be, though. I don't understand why it's such a stumbling block that the affair hasn't actually started yet. Surely this is a better position but I am at a loss for how to halt the process and change our path.
Originally Posted by Norah
Do you only have advice for people with an affair already going on? I need advice for how to prevent an imminent one and repair my marriage.

It's the advice we have been giving you.

(1) Stop asking him about the OW. All you are doing when you do that is telling him to be more careful.

(2) Snoop.

Examples:
Put a VAR in his car or an office where he and this OW spend time so that you can listen to their conversation and see what the true nature of their relationship is.

Hire a PI.

Put GPS on his car.

Watch his apartment to see if anyone is coming and going or to see where he is going.

Again all of this is done QUIETLY.



Originally Posted by Norah
I did investigate.

We've already told you that the investigation you did was not adequate.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read our posts.
Originally Posted by Norah
I did investigate. There is no affair. There's a high chance that there soon will be, though. I don't understand why it's such a stumbling block that the affair hasn't actually started yet. Surely this is a better position but I am at a loss for how to halt the process and change our path.

Norah, the fact that you are asking him if he is having an affair is a clear indication you haven't investigated. If you had investigated, you wouldn't need to ask. And now he has taken the week off at the same time his professed romantic interest is taking a week off, which looks very suspicious. But since he told you nothing is happening, you believe it. Surely you can see how that looks to us?

He may very well not be having an affair, but that can't be determined unless you really investigate. Dr Harley has been at this for decades and here is what he said about the subject:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings."
here
My husband didn't ask to separate so he or we could sort things out. He left because he stopped loving me and couldn't figure out how to start again, and we had no idea how to fix that. We tried counselling before he left but once he decided to leave he refused to consider further work on our relationship. I think Marriage Builders could help, but badgering me about spying on him isn't helping. He has freely admitted that he likes this woman and may get together with her in future. No spying or snooping required: he TOLD me. So what is my best approach to stop him from going to her and attract him to try again with me?
Originally Posted by Norah
My husband didn't ask to separate so he or we could sort things out.

He asked for a separation; that is the point.
Sorry, I don't know what that last post means. Yes he asked to separate after counselling failed to improve things by making him feel love for me again. He never pretended otherwise.
And yes he has someone waiting in the wings. That's also obvious and I have confirmed that with him and discussed it here. They're just not an item quite yet and I'd love to know how to avoid that additional complication.
I've got a full time job, kids, and am very busy...and can't keep wasting my time on people who don't want to snoop. So unless you start to follow the advice so this will probably be my last post.

Originally Posted by Norah
They're just not an item quite yet and I'd love to know how to avoid that additional complication.

They are an item. It is clear to all of us here because we've seen this scenario many many many times over the years.

My sister was in a similar situation in 2009 (refused to believe there was an affair but was willing to admit there may be someone in the wings). The good folks here were able to help her investigate appropriately, and she found her WH was in a full blown PA.

When a man has asked for separation, the affair is already entrenched - fully physical. The affair was already physical before he moved out.

I hope you wake up soon. Maybe Dr Harley will be able to convince you. Good luck.
Originally Posted by Norah
Sorry, I don't know what that last post means. Yes he asked to separate after counselling failed to improve things by making him feel love for me again. He never pretended otherwise.

Everything that your WH said is irrelevant and makes no difference in what you should do to SNOOP, as I listed for you a few posts back.

Dr Harley will tell you the same thing - investigation does not include asking the wayward or others about what is going on.

That is the point.
I sure hope you will investigate and get solid evidence of an affair. You need to rule out an affair with solid investigation.

Also, please read Please explain gaslighting, because I think you your H is gaslighting you.
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I sure hope you will investigate and get solid evidence of an affair. You need to rule out an affair with solid investigation.

Her husband has already set up the new girlfriend by introducing a false narrative: I am leaving you because I have been unhappy for years. In the meantime, I may have a romantic interest in this woman IN THE FUTURE. It is classic gaslighting of a wayward spouse who is leaving his spouse for another woman. He throws her off by blaming his actions on HER. And he "can't work" on the marriage because he is "too hurt" even though the spouse is willing.

In truth, he is leaving Norah for an affair; so he can freely conduct an affair that has been going on for some time. He blames the problems in the marriage on her to throw her off balance.
This is so frustrating. I already know there's someone else in the picture and we can all call it an affair if that enables us to move on. I already know she's a problem and is receiving the positive attention that used to be mine, filling the needs I should be filling. This is not news to anyone and I really don't understand why it's such a sticking point that I have to say it's an affair in order to get help. It's clear that she is in the picture in a way that has damaged my marriage and that situation is worsening. I need help fixing the problem, not choosing a word to define it.

I feel that we're going around in circles here and it's not achieving anything. You all have good intentions but are trying to fit my situation into a predetermined pigeon hole where he left me for someone else. In truth I pushed him away and now he's finding someone else more enticing in comparison. I am not being gaslighted on this. I know how I behaved and how I treated him out of selfishness and ignorance, because I remember doing it and what my justification was. It isn't pretty but it's the truth.
If there is no affair, you start the MB program. If there is an affair, you implement a completely different strategy. That's why it is so important to get intel.
By letting his parents live in your home, he also drove you away. This is no 100% vs 0% responsibility for the state of your marriage, you both are responsible. The one thing different now and the reason for separation are most likely his feelings for another woman.
Originally Posted by Norah
This is so frustrating. I already know there's someone else in the picture and we can all call it an affair if that enables us to move on. I already know she's a problem and is receiving the positive attention that used to be mine, filling the needs I should be filling. This is not news to anyone and I really don't understand why it's such a sticking point that I have to say it's an affair in order to get help. It's clear that she is in the picture in a way that has damaged my marriage and that situation is worsening. I need help fixing the problem, not choosing a word to define it.

Ok, we all know what it is. So let's all agree it is an affair and move forward, shall we? You are pretty certain there is an affair so it shouldn't be hard to get evidence.

And keep in mind we are on your side. We are not the enemy, so put away your guns!
I will add to the last part. If you have sent him a Plan A letter [we had discussed a letter previously] I would wait a short amount of time to see if he responds. If not, you should go into Plan B. If you try to get him back for too long while he's having his affair, you will suffer serious health issues without achieving reconciliation. Dr Harley usually recommends 3 weeks and then going into a dark Plan B.
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If there is no affair, you start the MB program. If there is an affair, you implement a completely different strategy. That's why it is so important to get intel.
How would you suggest getting a separated spouse motivated to start the program? That was my original question and I'd still love an answer or at least some suggestions for how to approach it with some chance of success.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I will add to the last part. If you have sent him a Plan A letter [we had discussed a letter previously] I would wait a short amount of time to see if he responds. If not, you should go into Plan B. If you try to get him back for too long while he's having his affair, you will suffer serious health issues without achieving reconciliation. Dr Harley usually recommends 3 weeks and then going into a dark Plan B.
He has been away and hasn't responded to the letter yet, but he's due back today so maybe we'll talk tomorrow.
Originally Posted by Norah
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
If there is no affair, you start the MB program. If there is an affair, you implement a completely different strategy. That's why it is so important to get intel.
How would you suggest getting a separated spouse motivated to start the program? That was my original question and I'd still love an answer or at least some suggestions for how to approach it with some chance of success.
If there is an ongoing affair, the chance of success is zero. That's the point.

Men and women differ in what they can take. An affair is a not good for your health, often it damages the betrayed spouse. Men can fight for their marriage way longer than women. It is bad for a woman's health to stay too long in such a bad situation. Without an affair you follow the advice in the first thread on this subforum. If you do that when an affair is active, that would be bad for your health and achieve nothing.

Main goal is to minimize damage to you and maximize chances of saving your marriage. The reason for hammering on ruling out (or confirming) an affair is that nobody wants you to suffer and put in effort that will not lead to anything but draining your health.
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/saved-by-one-spouse-part-1-2.htm

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Those marriages can be turned around, too, but it's much more difficult and the process is more painful.

Not sure if you already reached out to Dr. Harley, but that would be wise. Your situation is even more difficult because you are a woman and 'fighting like a man' will not work.
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