Hi everyone, I've been reading this forum and listening to marriage builders radio for a long time now but haven't posted before.

My husband and I are in a rut in our marriage. In short, we have had a good marriage but lacked spark right from the start. We got married very young and because I was so young and immature when we met I married him because he was the right type of guy, not because I was madly in love with him. I was attracted to him (physically and personality), but there was always something missing which I ignored thinking it's just the way relationships go. The missing part was sexual chemistry so sex and romance in particular has been pretty average. It's not for lack of trying on his part, I just never had intense desires for him and eventually developed a sexual aversion.

We are in our mid 30s now and I think both realizing that life is passing us by while we raise children and live in a fairly mediocre marriage. I found marriage builders a while ago and really thought it was the answer to all our problems. We've talked a lot in the last few months about our likes/dislikes, our turn on's etc and I've been quite hopeful that this program will bring the spark into our relationship.

This week I have finally come to a very scary realization. The type of men I find insanely attractive are cheating types. When I look back to the men I was severely attracted to before my husband, they were all the "bad-boy" cheating types. A lot flirted with me while I was dating other guys and I even cheated a few times. It makes sense to me now why I married my husband and didn't marry a man I was intensely attracted to because I guess some part of me knew they would likely mess me around. It sounds awful and I hate even admitting it, but I think the only way to fix things is to be honest and blunt.

This has made me question whether marriage builders can solve my problem. Maybe my husband just doesn't possess the qualities that turn me on ie. the cheating bad-boy thing. I understand the concept about extra ordinary precautions and boundaries around other men etc and have not had an affair since being married, however this is make or break time for our relationship. For us to stay together, I need to be able to be more attracted to my husband than I was to those other men in my early 20s. The thrill of the bad-boy, the thrill of flirting behind my partner's back, the excitement of doing something "wrong". He also, understandably, does not want to be with me if my most intense attractions were to other people. If he and I are in love, it needs to at least match those attractions and desires or else he always comes off second. In that case it's better for him to find someone else and have it be magical right from the start.

How can I get that same thrill and excitement from a committed relationship? Is it possible to change my tastes so that I find something else sexier than what I did in the past?

I'm really hoping so!

I remember hearing one of Dr Harley's radio shows where he was speaking to a woman who is only really attracted to abusive men and finds other men to be kind of "weak". She split from her abusive husband and Dr Harley told her that she should be single rather than get into another relationship with an abuser if that's the type of man she finds sexy. Is mine a similar case? Does anyone have any experience with this and perhaps a solution for us?

I know the answer will probably be to stop being selfish and I agree, but me not being selfish over the years has never fixed the problem, it's just made it dormant. And kind of makes him feel lame that I have to be "selfless" in order to be with him. Terrible!

I need some practical solutions to find a committed relationship sexier than the casual, naughty, wrong relationship.

I hope that all makes sense and that someone has an answer or some similar experience to share. Thanks!

Hi willingwife, welcome to Marriage Builders. It seems that you are "attracted to" a fantasy and not a real man. You have built up this fantasy man in your head that is not real. People don't fall in love with "types," per se, they fall in love with other people. If you were in love with your husband - a real man - your mind wouldn't be wandering to fantasies. My suggestion would be to throw yourself into this program and create a romantic, passionate marriage.

Can you tell me where you are in the program? For example, how many dates do you go out on per week? What do you do on your dates? Which books do you have?

Yes willing that’s what I was going to say too. Welcome to MB! I encourage you to start listening daily to the radio show it will help you have a whole attitude shift to bring you really into the day to day joy in your marriage. It will remind you to set aside time for those 4 4 hour dates. I know it feels right now like you’re missing a certain intensity with your man but this will bring it right back let us know how it goes!

Can I ask what extra ordinary precautions you are taking?
I ask not to make an assumption and believe you about not having an 'affair'; but is or have there been other possible OM that are making you think about the thrill of an affair?

But that is not how marriage works. When you are married, the competition is closed. You are putting him up against a fantasy, something not real and that is not how marriage works. You can create passion and romance, but you need to FIRST close the competition.

Thank you MelodyLane. We have read His Needs, Her Needs; Love Busters; and Fall In Love, Stay In Love. And I've read quite a lot of the forum posts and have listened to a quite a few of the radio broadcasts.

We are not dating and have never really dated. In the beginning we were saving money and didn't have much so never really dated and since having children they have been a full focus

Are you able to explain what you mean by people not falling in love with types? I do agree with you that people do not fall in love with types but do you not think that people are generally attracted to certain types? Like for example I prefer blond men who are more social and outgoing to say darker haired men who are quiet and pensive. That's not to say I couldn't fall in love with a quiet pensive man, but I doubt I would be wildly attracted to him right off the bat. Now if it were something like hair color, or personality that my husband could change then I think we would not have a problem. He is willing to change anything that he can in order to have the best "base" for me to fall in love with. However if the thing I find wildly attractive is a bad-boy cheating type it's something he can't become, if you know what I mean.

I am not actually fantasizing about anything, except an incredible magical marriage with my husband. I was the one who found marriage builders and and have been driving the discussions and the research to find a solution to our problem so I am ready to throw myself fully into the program, however it feels like a big risk to my husband if we do the program and say we fall in love but it still does not compare to the crazy, wild attraction feelings I had to other men in the past. They were not fantasies, they were real men who existed and who I had interactions and relationships with so that is what he would compare it.

He is the one being cautious about doing the program because he is not convinced it will give us the results we want. He would rather first make any changes necessary beforehand. Now physical changes are fairly easy and some personality changes as well, however we have hit a wall with this realization that the men I have been properly attracted to in my life were all cheating, flirting types. So we are not sure how to move forward now.

Thank you NED, I hope I'll be able to post an incredible success story oneday!

mb_hope what I mean by that are Dr Harley's extraordinary precautions like never spending a night apart, no personal friendships with members of the opposite sex, no contact with ex's, boundaries around other men etc.

There is no other possible OM in the picture except for memories of the past. And it's not really me who has the fear of moving forward it's my husband. He doesn't want to fall in love with me only to still come second. I completely understand that.

An attraction to a certain TYPE is not the same as having a romantic relationship. My point is that you can't fall in love or have a relationship with a "type." But you can fall in love with your husband.


Then stop comparing. The competition is closed when you get married so there should be no more comparisons like this. Rather, you should throw yourself into your marriage, which you are not doing.


The most impactful step you can take is to start spending 15-20 hours per week on undivided attention, meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. This should be accomplished in 4 - 4 hour dates every week. We use this worksheet and plan out our upcoming week every Sunday afternoon. This program does not work without this step and romantic love will never be attained. UA Time Worksheet

Imagine if your husband told you that you have to compete with porn stars to live up to his dreams? Would you be ok with that? We have men who watch porn who really do have this expectation.

A married person should never be placed in that position. The competition is closed. He doesn't have to compete anymore. If the competition is still open, you have bigger problems here.

Thanks Melody, I agree. For me the competition is closed but it's not for him. He saw me with a couple of other men early on when we first met so he knows what I am like when I am extremely attracted to someone, but I've never felt or acted like that towards him. Because he wasn't that "type".

My question would be whether the feelings of passion within marriage would be more intense than those attractions I've had in the past? Maybe I don't fully understand what it feels like to be in love.

It's more that he needs my attraction towards him to trump all other attractions I've had; past, present and future. I totally understand that!

Yes, of course and that's what you should do. I would stop talking about the past completely and stop these destructive comparisons. It is very destructive. I understand that he wants passion in his marriage and that is very attainable, but talk of other men and other "types" is counter productive. He needs to learn to do a super job of meeting your needs and vice versa. But none of that will ever happen if you aren't following the policy of undivided attention.

Ok yes I think I understand.

Does that mean that the past becomes irrelevant so even if the feelings within the marriage are less than those that were felt in the past it doesn't matter because the door has been closed to any alternatives and they get forgotten?

So he could be second in the grand scheme of things because I desired those men in the past more than I will ever desire him, but he is first in the present because the competition has been closed so they no loner matter?

Sorry I'm just trying to make sure I understand completely. Appreciate your responses.

On the porn star comparison, I kind of feel that if his dream fantasy girl had a smoking hot body like a woman he saw in a porn movie (neither of us watch porn by the way) then that is something I would be willing to work on for him. So that I could in fact be his dream girl.

That's how he feels, he wants to be everything I could ever want. And we have solutions for most obstacles except the bad boy thing and I just don't know how much of a problem this is.

Yes, the past is irrelevant. You are married now. Leave the past in the past.


He is not second to anything. He is married to you. The objective is to fall in love with each other. I would stop bringing up your past boyfriends, it is destructive and very disrespectful to your husband.

So do you think that if we did the above then my attraction to him would become more than what I've experienced in the past?

Sorry I hope I'm not annoying with all these questions, I'm really just trying to understand properly.

But you wouldn't be his dream girl, the porn star would. And what if you are a 55 yr old woman who is being compared to an 18 yr old porn star? Do you think that's fair? Of course not. It is profoundly disrespectful and has no place in marriage. When you get married, the competition is closed.


Leave the past in the past. People fall in love because their needs are met, not because one is a bad boy or not.

Right. I want to also refer you to an article that explains HOW people fall in love. They don't fall in love with "types," they fall in love according to how well their needs are met. THE LOVE BANK

It's not me who brings them up, he does. He has chosen to compete with them.

Thank you, this line really makes sense to me.

You have been making comparisons all over this entire thread and told us this in your first post:

You certainly are comparing. The subject of old boyfriends should be dropped completely.

Yes I see your point.. thank you. Sometimes it takes a third eye to show you what you're doing! I can definitely do that.

I don't think he will though until he knows that my desire and attraction to him can be greater. Even if it is not greater currently, that's okay. But if there is a genuine plan that will give that result then he will be willing to drop the topic and follow the plan. At this stage he is not convinced that falling in love will result in a stronger attraction and sexual desire than what I felt to those men in the past. I was not in love with any of them but my sexual desires towards them were very strong purely out of initial attraction.

So the question still remains whether being in love will result in a stronger attraction and sexual desire. A raw attraction, not a warm fuzzy closeness.

And you believe that the answer is yes?

So he needs to FIRST drop this so the attraction and desire in your marriage has a chance to grow. Making false comparisons to fantasies and past boyfriends will hurt, not help. If you will follow this program, and eliminate these comparisons, you will fall in love with each other.

Okay thank you I will talk to him about what you have said.

Just a quick final question, is being in love the same feeling as attraction? I believe I understand that...

Yes! It is an incredible attraction that leads to sexual desire. Please read the link I posted about the lovebank. It gives a very good explanation of how it all works.

Awesome.. I will thank you so much

Willing I encourage you and your DH to start listening to the radio show daily. All the time they talk about couples where the wife does not feel sexual desire for her husband when they initially find the program but when they work the program they build intense desire for one another and want to be intimate every time they have the date night. Your DH needs to get past that Romantic Love threshold. I get it that you knew people who create this intensity naturally but it’s a practice you two can learn.

Enough theory now go print that sheet and let us know how it goes, we’re here for you. And download that app to listen to the show, you are used to settling and need to hear every day encouragement to get going and keep going. Especially your DH sounds very used to just wishing things were different without putting in the footwork.

I just want you to know that I completely understand where you are coming from! My husband and I are kind of in the same boat. My mother had tons of bad relationships and I developed a protective mechanism and just didn't allow myself to have 'feelings' towards men. Lots of men around but no excited things.. just a lets try this and see if it brings something about. My husband wasn't someone I even wanted to do things with (didn't have a physical appeal and his personality didn't compensate, for me at the time) but he hung around and we talked and did things together. He filled some space. I was in an unhappy time. I felt safe with him. I laid my head on his shoulder he jumped on me. lol I was going to pretend like nothing happened but he is a talker and needed to discuss it and said I don't think you want to forget about this and well.....lots of stuff happened some good, most bad and we are married. Shortly after we got married a guy came up to me and stuff 'happened'. I didn't cheat but I found I had desire for him, which was a new feeling for me and it was something that was completely unprovoked and caught me off guard. I didn't know the guy. Just the way he came up and approached me made my body respond. Since then I have had more than a few incidents where I feel drawn to other men and I get kind of sad because I really don't have that for my husband. I have avoided those people and spent much time in prayer and have taken it to my friend to pray with me and eventually to my husband. He has responded in much the same way that I'm sure yours has, but maybe not. He wants to have my desire and he should. I just can't figure out how to give it to him and its sickening to me to say maybe if you were different that might change. I don't know that it will and I don't want him to feel like he has to be a certain way or I won't have physical desires for him. Its one thing to have something and lose it and have to work to get it back, but to not have it and find it...well I certainly don't hear too many good stories. Its a super hard path for both people. My worry is that we can do all the stuff and make all the changes and my body will not respond to him simply because we didn't have an initial attraction.
On to something that may be helpful! lol We were recently talking about being the last two people on the earth. lol Suppose we weren't attracted to each other but we were the last two people on earth... over time I'd say that we would eventually develop romantic feelings for each other because there would be no other option. What I am realizing is that by holding onto my doubt or the sadness from the lack of initial attraction or the its not right and it will never work or the fear that he won't bring about those feelings in me is causing some of the comparison and instead of building us together it is keeping me further away. My husband is more than willing to meet my needs and to do things its just frustrating trying to figure out how to walk through it and find what works. The struggle is real! I hope that this somewhat helpful!

Technically it is a psychological normality to have more intense feelings of anything when arousal is heightened by anxiety or uncertainty. Therefore things or people which are ‚dangerous‘ or new will always be illiciting a higher level of ecxitement in your brain.
Because our reward circuits drive us to especially take interest in things new or dangerous. We would not have survived as a species without this.

Therefore, Dr Harley recommends doing fun and exciting things with your spouse and excercising with your spouse, because the brain will facilitate you falling in love under those conditions, because of heightened general arousal.

Nvertheless, stop thinking about the excitement of the past, because you never got to experience the downside of these people, just imagine them nagging to you about dirty socks next to the hamper, next time you have those thoughts.
Also, as you age, your excitement and attraction levels go down a bit because of having experiences with lots of things and because your hormones will be less erratic than at the end of puberty.

So stop comparing your attraction levels with those of some bums from the past and start doing exciting things with your husband without the kids 4 hours at a time.

I’m sorry for what you and your husband are going through. I’ll be following your story for advice too. Have you been in touch with dr Harley?

Thanks for your reply and for your honesty. You’ve actually voiced a lot of my husband’s thoughts and concerns regarding the excitement with something wrong and also the age factor.

I’ve argued with him that we are not that old but unfortunately if what you say is true I am staring down the barrel of a divorce! He is not willing to make any moves in our marriage unless I can have more intense lust towards him than these past fellows. We will either stay together as semi-friends (which I’m not willing to do as I know we will hate and resent each other when we are older) or we will divorce so he can find someone else who feels that way towards him.

We’re both keen to do the marriage builders program but he needs more of a guarantee that it will give him the result he wants before jumping in.

He does have a guarantee, that nothing will happen if he does nothing.

Wow that’s super sad willing because if you all had started this two weeks ago you’d already be noticing a difference. If truly he won’t try something you ask him for 2 weeks, which is how thoughtful requests work, he is not cut out for this program nor a happy marriage. At least you found this out early in your marriage.

This was my experience too, I called the radio show and got a plan and my xh went on the defensive and refused to try. It saved me years or trying with someone who was not marriage material.

It's his job to cause you to fall in love with him but I bet comments like this don't help at all. If he wants you to be in love, he needs to get to work. No one can do this for him.

I havent been back on these boards in a long time.

I am happy to see Melody still active. Melody saved my life about 9 years ago.

Hi BT! Hope you are doing well!

We’ve been together almost 13 years... definitely not early!!

I’m sorry for your experience. I really don’t want to lose him but I suspect this is where we are headed unfortunately. Unless I can give him a fool proof plan on how I can desire him sexually more than these men from my past. Until he believes it, we are stuck. He wants a plan for my lust towards him to be more than I’ve felt to anyone else, and if I can give him that then he will be willing to fall in love with me. It’s an egg and chicken situation I think!

He doesn’t really care if I’m in love with him as long as I’m lusting after him. If we have the lust component then he’ll want to be in love.

Problem is there was lust with these other people even though I wasn’t in love with any of them.

Because they gave you the focused attention you want from your husband. Would he be willing to call Dr. H? He can convince him to try.

I just reread and see you have kids. Is that a good reason to try for two weeks a new plan?

This makes a lot of sense to me - the focussed attention thing. He will tell you he gave me focussed attention at the start of our relationship and it never resulted in any lust or major sexual desire in me. And with realising that most of the men I felt that way towards were in cheating situations, he just thinks that is my turn on and I can’t ever feel that way in a committed relationship. That’s why I posted on here to see others opinions as I don’t really know the answer.

I’m not sure he will talk to Dr Harley but maybe if it is a final request from me then maybe.

Did you take a look at the lovebank article? People fall in love based on how well their needs are met. "Focused attention" might not be meeting your needs at all. People fall in love when the intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment are met and met WELL.

His success in meeting your needs is determined by your feelings for him and it doesn't sound like he has done a good job in that regard. If he wants you to be in love with him, he needs to become a PRO at meeting your needs. I would print up the article about the lovebank and give it to him so he understands how passion and romance is created.

This thread is really striking a chord with me. I have been (and still am in your husband's situation) and it is not a fun place to be. In looking for advice and plans and talking to others; I have found quite a few men dealing with this situation and it is really hard and ego damaging.

Most men have a need for admiration and when they feel their wife is providing it to someone else (even if it is just in her thoughts)... he'll first be angry that it is happening; then desperate to gain it for himself... if he determines that he can't get it (like oh she just wants 'bad-boys' or she can only be open that way with stronger, smarter, more handsome, etc guys) he will feel hopeless and bounce back and forth between being angry and judging his wife to desperately demanding she change and flip some switch and give it to him. When the best line of action would be to do admirable actions that bring about his wife's admiration. I would say that his wife could help him by highlighting attributes/actions she finds admirable... BUT not in a way that creates comparison or competition with others. Examples:

I really like it when you take time when you get home to talk to me... NOT I noticed Bob always takes time when he gets home to talk to Susan; I'd like it if you did that.

I really enjoy it when your caring and affectionate side shines through for me... NOT John always seems so caring and affectionate; I'd like it if you were more like that.

I really get excited when you're confident and assertive... CERTAINLY NOT When I dated Tom he was assertive and confident and I found it exciting.

I will say there is hope, but it does require a lot of work and honesty with each other. And my wife (smileyk28) and I aren't completely on the other side but we are working it and there is progress. As for 100% guarantee... those don't exist in life.

Just reading this; I'm guessing your husband is feeling hopeless and is stuck in his head and angry and insecure... which probably makes him a joy to be around. But where you two are at right now is not where you have to stay.


If the above quote is true; I really do think you can make it. And I would encourage you to not let go and keep encouraging your husband to give it a try. It will take both of you to fix it; but only one of you to blow it all up.

So Just going through the thread I have some questions and thoughts:


From your first post to the last it comes off as at first the realization that your type is the 'bad-boy' cheating type... to it was your husband's realization. I'm not sure but he may have gaslighted himself it focusing on this aspect of your previous relationships and then by hamstering it in his head and incessantly focusing on it gaslighted you it to focusing on it as well.

From his perspective, this would be frustrating for many reasons. One you would always be afraid that some 'cheating type' (and they do exist - I have known men that exclusively pursue married women) could approach your wife (a real possibility) and even if she doesn't step-out she will be thinking about it. Two if he has got it in his head that the flirting and sneaking around is the turn-on... well to be blunt no man wants to feel like a fool and a cuck.

How did this even come up? I ask because you mention:


Did he ever question before marriage why you were a certain way with these other men and not him?


This is good; have you always practiced this in your marriage?


I understand completely what he is wanting here - he's worried you're just staying 'because it's the right thing to do' and not because you 'want' him.
It's good there aren't any possible OM and it needs to stay that way.
He also needs to make sure there are no possible OW. In the state, he is in (feeling really low in the admiration area) if he isn't careful it is really easy for some flirty woman, etc to make inroads by stroking his ego.
You both are responsible for your own emotional sobriety and actions.

Neither one of you is second - you are married. You need to both have blinders on and be focused on each other more than anything.


This needs to change. Find cheap dates - go to the gym and put the kids in the nursery, take walks, picnics whatever you have to do. I get having kids and they need your time. But if you get divorced you're only going to see them half the time; so you two making time for each other may seem selfish but it benefits your kids.


He needs to do something because obviously what you two were doing wasn't working. You move forward by deciding to focus on fulfilling eachother's needs and avoiding love busters and implementing extraordinary precautions so no one else (real, fantasy, memory, etc) has the ability to usurp your spouse's place as the depositor in your love bank.


Yep


I second this a lot. And it is not just the example of comparing a 55-year-old to an 18-year-old -- any comparison is out of line. We can easily see that the 55-year-old to 18 year old is out of line; but even comparing 55-year-olds to other 55-year-olds is out of line. we should make every attempt to give our spouse the best version of ourselves; but we shouldn't have to compete with others. Going down the comparison rabbit hole is dangerous because there is always someone better-looking, richer, more 'compatible', more affectionate etc.


How is he bringing them up? He should know about your past and you two should be following the policy of radical honesty. Are they questions about your past relationships that he doesn't know? Or is he just angry and bringing them up to keep the idea he and you have that you can't be turned on unless it is some cheating type guy?


Guess what the future is always new and uncertain; focus on the excitement of that.


I agree and you also need to be honest about what your needs are and how you would like them met and any love busters need to be dealt with.


He wants both; but if forced to choose he wants to make sure there is lust. I do think he can get both but not necessarily one without the other and even if he could -- how would he know?

I really do understand his dilemma here and wish that I had some great answer.
To be honest this is the biggest issue I am struggling with as well.

He doesn't want to be loved in spite of your real or perceived lack of chemistry with him.

In Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders Harley writes in the section called The Beauty Contest about measuring the galvanic skin response of women as various men stood in front of them without saying or doing anything - the larger the response the more emotionally attractive the male was determined to be. What causes some women to respond to some men instantly in such a way and vice-versa?

I've done a lot of reading on this subject -- and there are no hard and fast conclusions.

One study was interesting in that it found during ovulation women were more likely to have more positive responses than during their non-fertile times and men, in general, had more positive responses overall than women did. My guess on this would be that humans are animals and have a natural desire to propagate the species.

Now that is just initial response and while not to be dismissed out of hand; probably not something a marriage could be built on alone.

The upside is the response can be built and grown. In another study the took newlyweds and measured their responses and continued to do so over a period of 5 years. Those that reported positive marriages had shown GSR elevations those that reported problems had lowered or disappeared.

So wherever you are at now -- if you make deposits into each other's love banks and keep going the desire will come. As for the rabbit hole question of can, there be lust without the building of love between you -- there really is no way to know.

I'll use myself here; I love my wife but as we have had issues and struggles my desire at times has taken a hit (maybe not as much as a woman's would have just do to the fact I have testosterone in my system at higher levels than most women). When we are doing well and spending time together and I keep others from making deposits my desire grows... but if you were to say what would be the desire if you stripped out the fact she is my wife and mother of my kids etc -- just put her in front of me and I didn't know her from Eve... well she is attractive but I have no idea what my level would be because I can't strip out all the good and bad experiences I have had with her. I can just focus on making more deposits and let her do the same and guess what it will grow -- so to his desire for the desire to be greater than what you had for others... it will be because he has an opportunity they don't your willingness to let him make deposits.

I think this can get really complicated and would love to see Dr. Harley address the issue more directly. Now granted this is marriage builders and not random one-night stand builders.

However, it would be fascinating -- basically in our day and age with mobile dating apps -- like tinder; what makes a woman swipe right on a guy and with minimal conversation set up a hookup? I know some use these apps and really just set up dates and sometimes a relationship is built; but as for those that are just setting up one night stands with strangers in the apparent absence of conversation, affection, recreational companionship -- you are left with sexual fulfillment but this has typically been perceived as male thing; sex for just the sake of sex.

If anyone is interested, I emailed Dr Harley and got a response from him. They also talked about it in the show you can listen to. It’s the first topic on the show currently playing on the app 23rd July 2019.

Thanks! He said the way to resolve the problem is to fall in love:

1. your husband needs to become skilled at making lovebank deposits. Focus on intimate conversation, physical attraction, [is he physically attractive? can he improve?] affection, sexual fulfillment. What about recreational companionship? Look at improving in each of these areas.

2. is he making lovebank withdrawals? What are his lovebusters? Look at all 6 of the lovebusters. Take the lovebusters inventory. lovebusters inventory

3. Lifestyle? Is your lifestyle happy?

Did you let your husband listen to the show?

willingwife:

Any update on this?