From the latest MB Newsletter:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by Steven W. Harley, M.S.
>============================================
>
>Trying to learn about how your emotions work should be approached
>as any other science. Yes, science. In this case, you are trying
>to learn about what I call the Physics of Emotion. And just like
>any other science, you want to learn about how things work, not
>necessarily how they SHOULD work or how you WANT them to work,
>but first how things ACTUALLY work.
>
>For example, the Love Bank: it’s not a concept on how your emotions
>SHOULD work, it’s a concept on how your emotions DO work.
>Emotional Needs: it’s not a concept about what you SHOULD find
>attractive, it’s a concepts about what you DO find attractive.
>
>You must first understand the Laws of Emotion (Basic Concepts),
>then you will be able to understand what your options are from
>there.
>
>Believe it or not, there is logic to emotions. You just have
>to keep in mind that you must use logic instead of emotion to
>understand them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Tempted,

Well, you've made me chuckle today. I'm not counselor material, although since I was a kid, all my friends said I was a good listeiner. I changed majors in school out of social sciences because I'm really not very good at it. But thanks for making me feel as if I'm somehow helping you if nothing else, giving you angles to think about that you may have otherwise not thought about.

What I believe is that you've gotten alot of really good advice here from posters besides me. I am posting to you the way I talk to my friends when they have a serious life problem. If I have been there, I can offer more than if I have not been. But no matter, I do really try to remember and understand that feelings are not right or wrong, sometimes they just are. They may not be my feelings, but that does not make them right or wrong in and of themselves. I do not judge you and never will, no matter what choices you make.

I remember now when you use the word spell or curse (good description by the way) how it felt to be reeling out of control on an emotional level. This is a dangerous place to be because if you are relying on someone else to set the limits you are at her mercy and under her control. I was in this position. I relied on om to set the limits if you can believe that. He did for a while and then one day we were out on a "date" having a drink and talking. He had made some internal choice to change the rules. I was not prepared for that and although it took me off guard, I was so reliant on him making the rules that I was not prepared for what I'd do if he changed them all of a sudden. And so after 6 month EA, it took a turn. Please so not rely on her to set the rules. Do not lie to yourself about this EA.

I know how you are feeling and I'm here to support you. I'm not glorifying how great the op is and how wonderful they make us feel. I'm acknowledging the feelings that you have and saying to you that I understand. It isn't as easy as telling you to go and do the right thing. Go and pay attention to your wife and marriage. If it were that easy, this site would probably be vacant. But it is busy, busy with all of us ws,bs,op. We are all here because these relationships fail us miserably. You said you do love your wife. I believe you. But I have to ask you next question - what is the difference in your love of ow girlfriend and your wife? How is it that you got to this place of loving them both? Now that you have this addiction and do not want to blow out the spark, what next? Where do you go from here?

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

I am wondering-

how long have you been married?
have you been involved in any other affairs/infatuations?
do you think your wife senses your distance to her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>BTDT,

This is not my thread and I don't wish to overrun it. However, you and I have exchanged posts before, and I'm sure you don't intend to insult me. I'm not offended at all. You don't agree with my posts to tempted obviously. That is okay and of no offense to me. I'm here to help him as best I can. The other poster who asked for more detail on myself, I posted to her on her thread. Not here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it's true CMiranda, I admit it, I DO have some credibility issues with you as far as Marriage Building goes. You stated that you have not embraced the basic MB concepts and you like to pick and choose which ones will work for you and discard the ones that do not suit you. That sorta raised a red flag in my head... Not saying that in time you might not change your mind, but still, it makes me wonder where you are if you do not agree with MB concepts... meaning, you must still be in heavy withdrawal...

This is not highjacking the thread, just getting clarification for my benefit and others who may also be wondering.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...I ask that you do not imply that I should take actions to accomodate the memeber on this site. Very few bs throw my history at me, but you are among those that do, and I'm not offended by it. It will not defocus me from my progress nor will it change my advice and empathy for tempted's situation. I am working toward self improvement and a ultimately a better marriage, and I've said before, that will roll out on my timeline. I'm not trying to be defensive, but i"ve said this all before. I know that you are aware of this position of mine so please lets not use tempted's thread to defocus from where HE is right now. He and I are in much different places. Like you, I've been there and done that.
</strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm not a betrayed spouse neither am I defocusing on the topic at hand--WHY tempted is tempted? Because of continued contact.

I'm also not throwing your "history" at you because this is your present life and your unwillingness to SEE it is really bothersome to me... It's not history. It's what is happening now, right now, in your life! So my point was that it's no wonder why you can so identify with tempted's withdrawal. Maybe you feel it is behind you but recovery cannot even begin until the betrayed spouse knows the truth of the situation, regardless. BS needs to know the truth of the situation, WS needs to confess, WS needs to end all contact even if it means changing jobs, moving out of state, etc., as Dr.Harley recommends in the articles on this site.

As far as your timeline. That is taking a whole lot for granted.

I never said I have been where and done what you have done because even the nature of our affairs is so different? I was single. My affair ended 20 years ago when my pregnancy was announced. My marriage of 9 years is affair-proof because of what I experienced and what I am learning here on prevention. So, there's big differences in what we have been or done. I'm trying to understand your thinking as a wife, not a BS, not an OP.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...I'm not posting on this thread because I want to talk about my own progress.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I could tell, but I am curious because that's the purpose for all of us being here--to let each other know we care and we really are interested in each other's progress. I have good days and bad days too. We all deal with temptation too, and Harley's recommendations are VERY effective tools for avoiding temptation! This is why we keep asking tempted to talk about his wife--to focus on his wife and not the OP! Out of sight, out of mind but you gotta get the OP out of sight first!!!

At least tempted could show some interest in the basic concepts!?!? After all... that is the point of this site. Right? Thick-headed or not, at some point it has to sink in--what to DO to move forward with recovery from withdrawal and temptation. That is the kind of support WS's will find here. Like it or lump it. Take it or leave it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong> ...if life after the A was so happy and wonderful, I wouldn't be here trying to show tempted that he should focus on himself and what he is missing in life, what it is that he needs in his relationship with wife that is missing.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CMirandaThis is where I respectfully disagree with your advice to tempted. Dr.Harley recommends in HNHN, the book (His Needs Her Needs), that we focus on meeting our spouses' top emotional needs, but in order to do that, we need to first be willing to take the time to find out what they are. If each spouse's focus is on understanding and meeting their mate's needs, everyone (automatically) finds what they are missing in life--which is, having their most important emotional needs fulfilled! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In my experience with the Basic Concepts, the more I meet my H's top needs, the more mine get filled. It really works! Can't knock it til you try it. The grass is not greener on the other side. It's green where you water it. It's really true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>...I do not believe that you have any idea what is in my heart, so please do not presume that you do...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe I presumed to know anything about you that you have not already posted about yourself, such as:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda previously on this thread:
<strong>
Tempted,

I'm not ready to give up on you yet. I know what is like to be in your very shoes. I'm not disregarding the posts from others who are asking you or pleaing for your wife's feelings. I just know that at this stage, they fall onto deaf ears and a heart that is stolen. So they won't work. I will tell you what I wish I had known 7 years ago.

[Thanks for the good post CrMiranda. You are right, the moral issues don't carry much weight with me right now. I am being led by my heart, and not my head. ]

I know this to be true tempted. Our hearts are not wired to our brains. I'm not appealing to your brain or your heart right now. I am just asking you to try and understand that you will not be able to control his relationship as it progresses.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You just said yourself what was going on with your stolen heart(s)... I'm not presuming anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>You may not understand my posts to tempted, and that is okay. I am trying to reach him and help him to see what all of the 100 + posts from BS have not been able to do. You can harp at him and you can lecture him,and although a good amount of it needed to be said and heard, it will bounce off of a heart that is already stolen. Sad, yes, but true.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree because you're sort of presuming that tempted's heart is stolen. Maybe that is not totally the case. The way I see this thread is BS's appealing to his reasoning before he allows his heart to be completely stolen. He has stated repeatedly that there is no way it will lead to a PA. I believe that. Still, as you and all of us well know, he's standing on a very slippery slope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>
Tempted has a powerful internal struggle going on right now. I will be here for him to try and help him see that this relationship of his is not the anwser to what is ailing him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As will we all...

Tempted

You commented that CMiranda knows what it's like. I don't know her story but I would agree that it sure sounds like she knows. However, do you think she is the only one?

I am a FWS. I understand. I get it. And yet since I didn't say things the way you thought they should be said, my posts have been ignored. Yes, I do tend to take the hard line of things like this because I don't want to see someone else make the same mistakes I made. But that doesn't mean people should be ignored.

It may sound as though we do not understand because we have taken such a hard line. But that is just an attempt to get through the WS thick head. You may not think you are a WS but you are. Does your "heart ache" when you are not with your wife the way is does when you are not in contact with your OP? If the answer to that question is "no" then you are a WS.

You have repeatedly ignored many posts. It would appear that they have been ignored because these people are telling you what you are involved in is wrong. If this is not the case, then respond. CM is NOT the only poster here who understands where you are at. There are many others.

Regretting

Just my two cents, for what it is worth. The "fix" you get from hearing from your OW (yes, that's what she is)is easy right now. Just hearing her voice, getting an email, makes you happy - you feel good all day, right? Well, like any drug addiction, this dependency will grow and you will require more and more to get that same feeling. Soon it will not be just a few words here and there...it will be certain words that you long to hear. And if you aren't careful, soon even words won't be enough and it will be her touch that you need to get that same "high." Please take it from one who knows - I've been there...am still there...if only I had stopped when a simple email was all it took...

Regretting,
you are not the only one who has been ignored. I have avoided responding to this thread but have finally caved...

Tempted has been the recipient of some of the best advice possible. The heartfelt pleas of those who really do see what is happening are being ignored because they are simply not what he wants to hear.

There are 12 pages of stories here from people who care enough to reply and try to stop the destruction of 2 marriages. This advice is free, but could be printed in a book, it's real life to those who offer it.

The sad part is that he does not really want the advice he asked for. His continued replies reveal that the fog is probably getting thicker. I don't think that there is anything that anyone here can say that will get through until Tempted opens his heart to the sanctity of his marriage and preserving it. I will pray for that.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Ladysing58 ]</small>

BTDT,

I have no idea how this post to you will end up looking. I hope it is not too confusing reading through your quotes and my answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
"Yes, it's true CMiranda, I admit it, I DO have some credibility issues with you as far as Marriage Building goes. ..still be in heavy withdrawal..."

Its okay that you have credibility issues with me. Forgive me if I resist explaining myself and looking for your approval. I'm not looking to debate with you. I'm on this particular thread because I've got Tempted talking, maybe not what we'd like to hear from him, but nonetheless, he hasn't left. I'm glad about that. I'm going to answer your questions quickly because I don't have alot of time today. I also don't feel that I have to explain my posts to Tempted, just as no one else here does.

As far as WD, I've come a long way but I recognize when I slip back into it. I would not call it heavy WD. I'd say I'm in process of getting through it. I don't have a chart tracking it so I don't know how to further explain. I do think I can recall the last 7 years of my life and identify with the progression of an affair without being in WD! I get the impression you feel that I should be bleeding on the floor and since I am not doing that I must be in WD. That is the impression that I've gotten.

".....WHY tempted is tempted? Because of continued contact."

I agree and I'd like to throw in that there is more too it than that. He is missing something so he'll be tempted again if he doesn't look inward first.

"I'm also not throwing your "history" at you because this is your present life and your unwillingness to SEE it is really bothersome to me... It's not history."

What I've been relating to Tempted about is how I felt in the beginning of my Affair. It is progressive and it is history.

"I never said I have been where and done what you have done because even the nature of our affairs is so different? I was single."

I'm not comparing our affairs. But we've both been in one and we both know that there is no happy ending. I don't agree that the nature of affairs is that different regardless whether you were married or single. There is a fine line between married and single people's EN's. Or maybe no difference at all. We all have them and we all need them fullfilled.

"....This is why we keep asking tempted to talk about his wife--to focus on his wife and not the OP! Out of sight, out of mind but you gotta get the OP out of sight first!!!"

If out of sight out of mind worked, then when he was on his date Sat. night with his wife, he would not have had compulsive thoughts of OP. I know what that is like and I am here to help him see his way out of it. I do not believe in out of sight, out of mind. It needs to be combined with other strategies to forget op. Right now, I believe he needs to focus on what his en's are and what is missing in his marriage. Focusing on his wife doesn't seem to be working.

"At least tempted could show some interest in the basic concepts!?!? After all... that is the point of this site..."

My expectations are within reason. A WS in the midst of an A coming here for help and questioning, is not going to just fall out of the fog or spell or A. It is not realistic to expect that.

"This is where I respectfully disagree with your advice to tempted. Dr.Harley recommends in HNHN, the book (His Needs Her Needs), that we focus on meeting our spouses' top emotional needs, but in order to do that, we need to first be willing to take the time to find out what they are. If each spouse's focus is on understanding and meeting their mate's needs, everyone (automatically) finds what they are missing in life--which is, having their most important emotional needs fulfilled! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In my experience with the Basic Concepts, the more I meet my H's top needs, the more mine get filled. It really works! Can't knock it til you try it. The grass is not greener on the other side. It's green where you water it. It's really true."

I may not said what I meant in the best way. I'm not saying that if A's didn't end with broken hearts and broken lives that I'd condone them. BUT if that were true, I wouldn't be at this site looking to recover from one. That is what my message was. I do believe this to be true. Its the getting to a point that one can be completely honest with their spouse and loose all the fear and open up that is the challenge. I know this concept works, it works with any person we have in our lives, friends, family, etc. It is a rule of relationships I think. The problem is that when in an A, all the good stuff is given to the op. At least most of it.

"I don't believe I presumed to know anything about you that you have not already posted about yourself, such as:
I'm not ready to give up on you yet. I know what is like to be in your very shoes. I'm not disregarding the posts from others who are asking you or pleaing for your wife's feelings. I just know that at this stage, they fall onto deaf ears and a heart that is stolen. So they won't work. I will tell you what I wish I had known 7 years ago."

I'm reflecting back 7 years. I can end the A, but I'm not going to forget. I understand where tempted is, because I've been there and I've done that. I'm not the same person I was 7 years or 5 years or 1 year ago. That is where I'm speaking from.

I know this to be true tempted. Our hearts are not wired to our brains. I'm not appealing to your brain or your heart right now. I am just asking you to try and understand that you will not be able to control his relationship as it progresses.
[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You just said yourself what was going on with your stolen heart(s)... I'm not presuming anything

You most certainly are. I did not reveal what was in my heart. I am referring to a process, a protocol if you will, that occurs in the beginning of a new relationship. Once the heart is given away, reason and logic don't or rarely apply.

"I disagree because you're sort of presuming that tempted's heart is stolen. Maybe that is not totally the case. The way I see this thread is BS's appealing to his reasoning before he allows his heart to be completely stolen. He has stated repeatedly that there is no way it will lead to a PA. I believe that. Still, as you and all of us well know, he's standing on a very slippery slope."

I don't believe I presumed. He admitted he loved his ow. HE did not come back and tell me I was wrong about this statement. So I assume I am correct. His behavior tells me that I am right.

I in NO WAY BELIEVE THAT HE CAN PREDICT WHETHER THIS WILL LEAD TO PA OR NOT!! That is the danger.He believes he can control the relationship based on what boundaries are set by ow. Read my last post to him. I thought the same thing, and I was wrong. That doesn't mean everyone else will be wrong, but it is a dangerous presumption in my estimation.

I dont' think dissecting my posts is doing that much for him and I'm growing weary of reiterating myself.

We are all here on this thread to help him see his way out of this. It will not happen overnight and some of us will make an impact on him and others will not. Lets go with what we have to work with and see what we can do to get through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neverthought:
<strong>Just my two cents, for what it is worth. The "fix" you get from hearing from your OW (yes, that's what she is)is easy right now. Just hearing her voice, getting an email, makes you happy - you feel good all day, right? Well, like any drug addiction, this dependency will grow and you will require more and more to get that same feeling. Soon it will not be just a few words here and there...it will be certain words that you long to hear. And if you aren't careful, soon even words won't be enough and it will be her touch that you need to get that same "high." Please take it from one who knows - I've been there...am still there...if only I had stopped when a simple email was all it took...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WELL SAID NT! You've described the progessive nature of the affair perfectly. Tempted, buckle up if you think PA is not possible. NT described the way it happens exactly.

But we all have to try,don't we??

I have read most of the thread...tempted, Ihave some things to say, as well.

Would you approve of your W having the same kind of friendship you have with this woman,with another man? Would it be OK for her to hug,kiss and hold hands with some guy? NO sex, right?,,so it's not an affair,in your mind...THAT seems to be a question that WSs never ask themselves, til after. Put your W in your position and yourself in hers...REALLY do it. How does it feel?

You don't want a divorce and you wouldn't want to marry this woman, you said. So, what are you accomplishing? Yuo have a good life, a good wife..a good marriage..but you are "missing" something. I will tell you the quickest,surest way to stop you rconfusion..TELL YOUR WIFE what is going on and how you are feeling. She is your best friend, not your enemy and she wants you to be happy. I think it would cathartic for YOU,more than her. Let a little light in on this friendship you have.

Look, you are asking b/c you KNOW this is wrong...you are about to embark on something irreversible..you can never make it right and you can never take it back. your marriage will NEVER be the same. you hear of people recovering and havong a better marriage afterward. OK, mine IS better now..b/c my H discovered that he already had EVERYTHING he thought he was missing. And HE is better..but I AM damaged by what he did..how he did it..and the lies and deceit have made me somewhat cynical and bitter. I never thought it would..I was a pretty happy person,before. I am sad all the time now,b/c the best thing in my life has been soiled.

It's OK..I love my H and vice-versa..If there were ONE wish my H had, it would be to have been honest with me from the get-go. He felt EXACTLY as you do for this OW..who had a miserable marriage and needed someone to talk to and to be rescued. H etook on her problems and made them ours, to justify what he was doing and "feeling".

What do you think he feels NOW for a woman who cheated on her H with him?(It was her second affair) And what do you think he feels whenever he looks in the mirror? Talking about NOW...2 yrs later. NOt nice, not pretty , not a fond memory.

Proceed if you must but don't ever say you didn't know the consequences. You have been told in gut wrenching fashion by people more articulate that I. TRY to listen...and really FEEL

I don't know about anyone else, but it always makes me sad to see posts such as this get dozens of replies...and other ones get zero or one. I don't think Tempted is ready to take advice that is going to lead to no contact just yet. I get frustrated trying to convince people who are in 'the fog.' Maybe in time, something will happen to lead him to cut this off and tell his wife. But I'm not assuming that will be very soon. By the way, I bet his wife does suspect something.

maggierose:

I agree. It is sad. I've felt many times that my threads get little atention, and my situation is SERIOUS. Well, I guess we all think our situations are the most serious things going on in the universe... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You're also right that tempted will be less likely to take much of this advice and more likely to just do what he wants - continue this EA, which will also likely get "out of hand" at some point.

I bet his W knows, too. Maybe not exactly what is wrong, but that something is wrong. I didn't know my W was having an A 12 years ago, but I very definitely saw that our M took a turn for the worst at that time. Even though we're not "really" in recovery yet, we nevertheless are having times together that are far better than anything during the past 12 years before D-day.

Sadly, tempted has no idea how seriously hurtful his A will be. He'll probably have to get in over his head to find that out.

When I found out about my husband's affair, the thing that hurt me the most was not the physical/sexual contact that they shared. It was the emotional connection that he felt they had. That is what started the whole thing. She was in an abusive marriage, my husband enjoyed being there for her, and the rest is history. When the physical affair ended, my husband tried at first to be "just friends" with the other woman, but I would not allow it. It broke my heart to think of him sharing anything with her. Sharing your thoughts and feelings is so much more intimate than sharing a bed. I say this out of caring for you and for your wife. Please just take the time to stop and think about how much you are hurting her. I know this is very hard, but if you are even a tiny bit selfish in this, you will destroy your marriage. You will be in my prayers.

Breanna

Not trying to disect your posts CM, just responding to the things you said in the order in which they struck me. The quote/end quote feature of the BB helps sort out the statements I chose to respond to, that's it.

Regardless, if anyone or anything said here is helpful to tempted only he can say for sure. Hopefully he is still reading, whether or not he is posting.

One thing everyone obviously seems to agree about and that is he is definitely standing on a slippery slope. How or when he decides to get his feet back to solid ground, is going to be up to him. Hopefully we have all given him much to consider.

"Protocol" for affairs???? Please... The only "protocol" for an affair in my book is lust. Pure and simple.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:

"Protocol" for affairs???? Please... The only "protocol" for an affair in my book is lust. Pure and simple.[/QB][/QUOTE ]

Oh, you bet your life BTDT! You have absolutely no idea if you think the only predeterminig factor is lust. You have no idea of reality. Most BS don't want to believe that many affairs, mine included didn't start from lust. I know the other 4 letter "L" word hurts to admit but its reality.

How would your lust criteria be measured in an EA by the way?

<small>[ July 08, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

You know that verse in the bible about "love is not selfish, etc." ?? Well, in my opinion, affairs are VERY selfish so they don't really constitute love. I'm sure most people think they are really love, but from what I've seen they are almost always infatuation based on fantasy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by maggierose:
<strong>You know that verse in the bible about "love is not selfish, etc." ?? Well, in my opinion, affairs are VERY selfish so they don't really constitute love. I'm sure most people think they are really love, but from what I've seen they are almost always infatuation based on fantasy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VERY good point, Maggierose. Thanks.

Lori