I feel like I'm at a critical crossroads and it's getting near the time for major decisions. As usual, some of this is part of the Plan that I've been working with Steve, and part is new/impromptu due to recent developments which kind of just happen, and are not part of the plan.

According to the Plan Steve and I had been following, we were moving forward more or less along Steve's normal steps, exchanging EN and LB questionnaires, creating Plans for meeting those needs, while at the saem time Steve was working on the "privacy" issue with my W, which turned out to be a delay to the normal process. In the meantime, I was supposed to get the "incontrovertible" evidence of continued contact of the on-going A, which we were going to use to confront her, unless by some other means she came around and admitted it, ended it, whatever.

The reason for this planned "confrontation" was simple; while she insists the A "has been over for over 2 months", there has been no information forthcoming about how it ended, when, why, how the communications took place, who helped her, or anything else that would indicate that indeed, the A had ended. On top of that, there has been on her part a reluctance to adhere to "No Contact" rules because she says it is unnecessary. "The A has ended, why do we need to ensure no contact?" So many of the things that Steve feels we need to put in place in order to move forward just are not there until the A has actually ended, and she begins to get with the program. In other words, we have gotten as far as we can get in the Harley process without knowing for sure if the A has ended, and subsequent adherence/acceptance of the rules that follow.

So we'd been cruising along, hoping to get the info, and hoping to be able to move on from there. But 2 things have happened;

1st; The "Proof" has not become available, and it may never become available from the source I hoped. So this presents a dilema; can we/should we "confront" with what we have, which is very circumstancial, but not absolutely conclusive, do I begin to snoop again in order to try to get the "evidence" on my own but risk a major loss of ground if she catches me doing it (which she has in the past), or do we let it go and hope for the best?

2nd; After this long weekend, and the conversations about what happened to my S with his girlfriend and the conversations about what is going on with my B and his wife, and the subsequent conversation my W initiated with me about "maybe we should just end this relationship, if you can't trust me".

So what now? The conversation with my W ended in a decision to run it by Steve tomorrow before making any decisions about whether we separate or not, so we'll see how that goes. If it goes badly, it may precipitate going to Plan B, without the benefit of a definitive confrontation, which would basically put my W in the position of saying that she cannot do anything about this, since she has ended it and I'm not coming back until it ends, so what now? We could be in a cat and mouse game without end...and being out of the house would make snooping almost impossible, so no chance of getting the evidence in another way. If, on the other hand, it goes well, and my W accedes to SOME level of acceptance that she must provide SOME information which indicates that the A has ended, maybe we're OK. It gives us time to get the proof, or maybe it convinces us that it has, indeed, ended. (which I strongly doubt). This would bring up another point; she's planning yet another trip to FL, and I told her clearly I believe she's going to see the OM, so maybe we'd have to gain that concession from her; cancelling the trip in order to help build trust...which I doubt would even happen...

I just don't know....too may unknowns and I haven't been able to talk to Steve about it yet, and maybe I won't be able to before tomorrow's session, so who knows?

Anyone have any ideas? Am I making it too complicated?

Space, I have had several thoughts for you from your post on the other thread etc...

Problem is I'm really short on time and may not get back to you in time.

I'll try and get back with you as soon as I can!

CSue

SC:

"Am I making it too complicated?"

Well... ...yes, but you DO that, SC! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you've got your ducks coaxial just fine for your talk with SH tomorrow.

Your W having been willing to talk about your S and your B's situations was a breakthrough in a pretty long stalemate. My own W's use of that "maybe we should quit" statement showed me that she's just as frustrated with being unable to extricate herself from her R with OMW's H, as she is with ME and my harping on contact and stuff like that. So, maybe good things will start to happen during your convo with SH tomorrow.

I wish it weren't such a fine line between setting boundaries and making demands, but it is. That's why the MB plans seem to work so well. Going to plan B (if you have to) lays your requirements for your M on the table and gives her a choice - to accept them or move on - without being demanding. It acknowledges that you have differing, maybe irreconcilable, opinions. Each persons' viewpoint is acknowledged as "valid" in plan B, but the differences can no longer be ignored. They must be dealt with.

Good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"Am I making it too complicated?"

Well... ...yes, but you DO that, SC! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good luck!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I know....I just get...antsy! I want to PLAN....I know it should be OK with Steve tomorrow...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and the subsequent conversation my W initiated with me about "maybe we should just end this relationship, if you can't trust me".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Proof positive that the affair isn't over, and that she is not committed to your recovery.

Ask Steve about snooping, I say go for it. I wouldn't confront her without proof positive - it will backfire - BUT you still need to consider Plan B (Steve will tell you how and when).

My H was in a similar spot when we were counseling with Steve. Swore the affair was over, no need to give up his privacy, on and on.

When he was really ready to end his dating activities, giving up his privacy and writing a no contact letter was absolutely not a problem, and in fact offered to me by him (because Steve had filled him in on that requirement).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and the subsequent conversation my W initiated with me about "maybe we should just end this relationship, if you can't trust me".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Proof positive that the affair isn't over, and that she is not committed to your recovery.

Ask Steve about snooping, I say go for it. I wouldn't confront her without proof positive - it will backfire - BUT you still need to consider Plan B (Steve will tell you how and when).

My H was in a similar spot when we were counseling with Steve. Swore the affair was over, no need to give up his privacy, on and on.

When he was really ready to end his dating activities, giving up his privacy and writing a no contact letter was absolutely not a problem, and in fact offered to me by him (because Steve had filled him in on that requirement).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, BR. I will talk to Steve about this...have to!

I have known all along that the A is not over, just have not been able to prove it beyond intuition and circumstancial evidence.

Do you suppose that if I were unable to get the "proof", and went to Plan B, she would/could just ignore this? She'd have to make some sort of decision, wouldn't she? Trouble is...which one would she make? Would she decide the A was not worth losing her M over, or would she become defiant and end the M anyway? Geez...what choices are those?

Space,
When it comes right down to it, you don't have a choice anyway. You just do your best, and that's all you can do. Sorry, but that's it, there isn't anything else. We hope she responds. We hope it doesn't kill you emotionally. ( you're already dead, right? )

You don't get to choose for her.

Look, don't get so worked up about it. Worry about what you can chang, put your energy there. We always think the worst. Don't fall into that trap right now. See what Steve says. See what W says. It's not over yet, it's really not.

SS

Thanks, SS. You're right. It's so frustrating to feel that the answers are so close at hand, and to think that a wrong move I make might just drive her away...but you're right. Thanks!

Hey SC...

Your not ready for Plan B as far as I can see. And I'm not saying that because I don't think your doing a great Plan A. (lack of knowledge may be my reasoning for this...) But, I think you need to probably quit talking about the A. Yes you need your information if your in recovery, but I don't think that ya'll are there yet. (this is why you and I need to have a cup/bottle to catchup)

As BR said... if she's maintaining a 'privacy issue' with you then the damn thing is still going on. Sorry. Cal me if you need to. Sorry I didn't get back with you earlier. I can call you now if you want... you can call me on my cell.

See ya

<small>[ July 08, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Husband2you ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Husband2you:
<strong>Hey SC...

Your not ready for Plan B as far as I can see. And I'm not saying that because I don't think your doing a great Plan A. (lack of knowledge may be my reasoning for this...) But, I think you need to probably quit talking about the A. Yes you need your information if your in recovery, but I don't think that ya'll are there yet. (this is why you and I need to have a cup/bottle to catchup)

As BR said... if she's maintaining a 'privacy issue' with you then the damn thing is still going on. Sorry. Cal me if you need to. Sorry I didn't get back with you earlier. I can call you now if you want... you can call me on my cell.

See ya</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right about being "ready" for Plan B, but I feel I'm as ready as I'll ever be. I have refrained from talking about the A for months, and only talked about it because she brought it up...I felt I could not refrain from telling her what I feel about trust and the A being over.

I know it is going on still...always have. And that is precisely why Plan B is close; I cannot continue to accomodate her and refrain from expressing my feelings any longer, letting her get away with this simply because of her bad reactions when we've talked about it in the past. I've been giving her a "break" on that only on Steve's request to let him work on her; but if some positive progress is not coming very soon, I doubt I'll be able to keep this up much longer.

Let's try to hook up today. Thanks!

Space,
You are not making this too complicated. It is complicated, no doubt, but you did not make it that way!
Your W sounds very strong willed & determined to have a lot of control as to how you work thorugh these issues. I feel you havemore than sufficient justifiaction to do what ever snooping you want -- her actions do not dictate any real eveidence that it is over (as we all recognise). Now the qurestion may be do you want to spend the energy & anxiety of going through the investigation process?
Sometimes I believe it comes down to a little power struggle -- in a sense by you going thoruhg the investigation thing, it gives her some power & justification in her mind, to hide even more & make her secret life evben more important.
On the other hand if you can calmly dliver a message like, "Frankly, my dear I don't give a damn," that could take away a piece of her power over you.
At the same time, if you feel it is absolutely crtitical to prove her lies, (I know I would tend to want to!) then, I believe it is important you be strong & not fall prey to her challenges about quitting if you can't "trust her" -- I believe this is a hollow threat to just get her own way. You have some rights here as well -- I think I hear that Harley is trying to work with your W, & that it would help a lot if your W acted as if it was over by being more open & honest & that she could help a lot by doing things to "earn" your trust back -- not just demand it! I believe you understand all of this & she does too! But like we all hear, we cannot control how our S acts -- sometimes I believe that when they understand we have limits & that we will act to protect ourselve & that may in fact mean breaking up; Plan B, they can more clearly see the consequences of their actions - otherwise the WS may not have sufficient reason (in thier fogged up mind) to end the cake thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
James Dobson's book, "Love Must be Tough," as you may know, adds some good perspective to this approach.
I know it is sometimes very difficult to get on the same page and to face the reality of things - so much involved, so many emotions -- I have a lot of hope for your situation becasue you are both counseling with Harley --

Best of Luck!

Well, HH, I don't have any particular need or desire to "prove" the A is ongoing. The ONLY reason for that is to try to get her to admit it and end it.
Frankly, I don't care how it ends, or what prompts the end, we just need it to end so we can constructively build from here.
If we pretend it has ended (as my WW contends), and try to rebuild, how real is that?
We all know that in order to even try to have a succesful recovery, the A must have ended first.

Hi SC,

I haven't checked in for quite some time, but here I am today and saw your post. You are perserverant! I admire your commitment to your M and your W and have a few of my own thoughts to add. I may be going out on a limb here, but I send a strong vote for heading toward Plan B and here's why. You reach a point where you realize that this isn't about manipulation or information or power struggles. Your W needs to want YOU and your M. Simply place it before her. If she decides for you, she will agree to the no contact with OM, changing her job, moving away, ANYTHING to keep you and the M. It's that simple.

I see this from the other side now, having implemented a Plan B. I'll share that another time. But it was so empowering to me to be able to say to my H, hey, this is it. If you want me, let's work it out. If not, I walk. I wasn't afraid anymore. Anything was better than all the deception and lies and crap.

It is a long process, all this information-gathering and sorting through the emotions. I finally gathered enough emotional strength that I could Plan B, and I'm glad I did. We are into counseling now.

I truly wish you the best. I'm just one voice out there in cyberspace, but I've had some experience now. Take it for what it's worth. And good luck.

AGAIG;
I agree wholeheartedly. For reasons that are beyond me, my W still believes she can continue her R with the OM, keep it secret, and have our M improve and survive.
Either that, or she's waiting for the right moment to bail out, but is using our M for her own purposes right now.
Clearly, any WS who acknowledges that what they've done is wrong and hurtful, and who wants to fix the M, would be willing to do almost anything to rebuild. When they are not...well, it's hard.
It is only the desire to not let her crash and burn that's still keeping me here. And my fear that because of her anger and defiance, she may not react to Plan B in the anticipated way, but will let the M just end...still feeling she was right. Only to find out later, perhaps years later, that she could have done something about it. But it may turn out that that is what will have to happen...I have tried very, very hard, but I fear I cannot keep this up much longer.

SC:

You know? The only real difference in our situations (besides the details) is that your W believes she can hide her R with her OM from you. My W knows she can't. But she also doesn't believe she really has to anymore either. And yet, she would like to resume a "professional" relationship with OMW's H. She's naive, too, in that she really believes he'll keep it strictly professional because she wishes it. I have no reason or desire to ever trust him, and so if she's pigheaded about him, I will have to go to plan B or DV at some point. Like you, my biggest concern is that my W is so strong-willed and certain that she deserves to have what she wants, that plan B won't have a positive affect on her at all, we'll end up DV'd, and if she ever comes out of her fog, it will be many years down the line.

Sorry, I'm really down this morning. I honestly hope your session with Steve goes well today. Please keep us posted.

Dear Spacecase,
I've read the other posts and tend to agree that it may only be plan B which helps to change her mind. But like they also said, it's a fine line between making demands and setting boundaries - this is something I am struggling with myself right now.

In my own case, I decided back in Easter week, to go to plan B - now, I don't know how I thought I was going to manage financially, but I had had enough - and if my H ever became seriously violent, I would have to go to plan B, so I would find a way.

But this is how I put it to him. First I said I was afraid that I didn't love him anymore and that I wanted a separation. The next day, he asked me if I was in the same frame of mind. I said yes. He asked had I thought this through and how did I think I would manage? I said I didn't know but I would find a way. He asked what had changed in my mind, since I had obviously changed from my previous statements of still loving him and wanting to work through our problems. I said I had been waiting for movement from him towards counselling and had seen none - I also knew that he was still in contact with OW, both seeing and phone/e-mail contact and that he was lying to me about this by hiding his actions from me.

He began protesting that they were "just friends" and that he was entitled to have friends. I pointed out that she was not like his other woman friends, who were work colleagues, or friends of us both. He said he wouldn't have that kind of friendship with X BECAUSE SHE WAS MARRIED! Duuuh - big duuuh! I wanted to say Duuuh but kiss me - because I didn't! I didn't LB! I just said, so it's OK for you to have these kinds of friends with other women as long as they are young and single?

I then said - the way I see it is this - marriage is an agreement freely entered into by two people to mutually agreed terms - for us (we are both practicing Catholics) - that meant we committed ourselves to love, honour and cherish each other, forsaking all others, and keeping ourselves only unto each other. That's what we said. Now - you have changed the terms of this agreement by establishing private personal relationships with other women which you kept secret from me. So you have changed the terms of the agreement without my knowledge or consent. Therefore, our original agreement is now invalid. And I do not agree to the terms of the new agreement which you now say you are entitled to have. Now - all the way along the line - you have been making your choices. I am entitled to make mine and now I am making it, and I do not choose to live with you anymore under the terms of this new agreement. I have tried, but I have found out by trying that I am not the kind of person who can accommodate you in this.

He looked shocked and was silent. Then he said - just because you don't have feelings for me doesn't mean we don't still have a marriage.

I said - maybe so - but I have told you what I think. I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openess and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I don't have to commit to marriage on any terms other than those and I am determined not to.

I left the room and that was the end of the conversation.

There was more - but by the end of the week he had got himself into counselling, and I relented and agreed to stay. Now we are here - much in the same situation as you and your wife, except that he seems to be working on himself in individual counselling - he has said that he is the one with the problems and he is trying to address those problems. I am now in counselling trying to deal with what I guess you could call my "co-dependency" - I find BrambleRose's post on Detachment with Love to be just what I need right now.

But I am posting this to you (even though its long and part of my story) because it was effective in getting him to admit his problems and start counselling. I am sure he took me seriously. It is also what I would plan to say to him again should the time come when I feel I have to go to that again.

Its a way of stating your position without making demands.

I also meant to say on my other post to you - that your wife cried when she was expressing her hopelessness to you - this is a sign that she is still very emotionally involved with you and that losing you still matters to her.

Hope this helps.
Odile

Bravo Oldie,
very well said.

Space, she has given very good info. Re-write it to fit, and use it. Again, one of the things that communication gives us is a small crack in the door. Find a way to nicely use it.

Hope session gets you both somewhere. Aaahhhh, the suspense. ( you needed to laugh anyway.)
SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:
... Like you, my biggest concern is that my W is so strong-willed and certain that she deserves to have what she wants, that plan B won't have a positive affect on her at all, we'll end up DV'd, and if she ever comes out of her fog, it will be many years down the line.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My greatest fear....

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by odile:
Dear Spacecase,
...
But this is how I put it to him. First I said I was afraid that I didn't love him anymore and that I wanted a separation. The next day, he asked me if I was in the same frame of mind. I said yes. He asked had I thought this through and how did I think I would manage? I said I didn't know but I would find a way. He asked what had changed in my mind, since I had obviously changed from my previous statements of still loving him and wanting to work through our problems. I said I had been waiting for movement from him towards counselling and had seen none - I also knew that he was still in contact with OW, both seeing and phone/e-mail contact and that he was lying to me about this by hiding his actions from me.

He began protesting that they were "just friends" and that he was entitled to have friends. I pointed out that she was not like his other woman friends, who were work colleagues, or friends of us both. He said he wouldn't have that kind of friendship with X BECAUSE SHE WAS MARRIED! Duuuh - big duuuh! I wanted to say Duuuh but kiss me - because I didn't! I didn't LB! I just said, so it's OK for you to have these kinds of friends with other women as long as they are young and single?

<strong>I then said - the way I see it is this - marriage is an agreement freely entered into by two people to mutually agreed terms - for us (we are both practicing Catholics) - that meant we committed ourselves to love, honour and cherish each other, forsaking all others, and keeping ourselves only unto each other. That's what we said. Now - you have changed the terms of this agreement by establishing private personal relationships with other women which you kept secret from me. So you have changed the terms of the agreement without my knowledge or consent. Therefore, our original agreement is now invalid. And I do not agree to the terms of the new agreement which you now say you are entitled to have. Now - all the way along the line - you have been making your choices. I am entitled to make mine and now I am making it, and I do not choose to live with you anymore under the terms of this new agreement. I have tried, but I have found out by trying that I am not the kind of person who can accommodate you in this. </strong>

I said - maybe so - but I have told you what I think. I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openess and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I don't have to commit to marriage on any terms other than those and I am determined not to.

...Its a way of stating your position without making demands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O, this is excellent! And I think I may just use it when the time comes. Very well said, very well put, no possible argument on this!
It has been filed in my "to use" documents!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also meant to say on my other post to you - that your wife cried when she was expressing her hopelessness to you - this is a sign that she is still very emotionally involved with you and that losing you still matters to her.

Hope this helps.
Odile</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. She has feelings and fears of losing me, perhaps the kids, but I keep getting the nagging suspicion that she's waiting for the "right time" to just dump me...can't put my finger on it, but many things she's done that indicate she wants to do them on her own, things I usually do for her, getting additional work and jobs outside of her ususal area, a subdued "defiance", many things.

I don't know which part is "fog", "fantasy" and which part could be real....very unsettling feeling.

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Update; Session with Steve today.

Steve and I started out alone, he asked me about what had happened, since I'd left him a message that something important had occured after my W's "if you don't trust me we should separate" talk.
So I told him the whole thing, let him know I was not feeling like we were making much progress, that I was feeling like Plan B was close...

He then spoke with my W for a long time, and then came back.

He said several things; to begin with, the fact that my W came to talk to me about that was a very good sign...and if you think about it, it really is. Never before had she done this...say we need to talk, express her feelings about something I said, etc.
He also said he understood how I felt, that it was reasonable for me to expect my W to "prove her innocence", so to speak, after all that has happened.
He also said that she still has difficulty with the "open and honest" thing, but she's showing signs of change there.
He had me whittle down the list of questions I had put together before, and said he'd arrange a call later this week where the 3 of us would be on, and she would answer the questions and he'd mediate and make sure she answered completely...we'll see. Here are the questions:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you doing to change those things and how?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you understand the role secrecy played in this?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you doing to make sure this does not happen again?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why did you end it?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did it end?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did you say?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did he say?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How was the R carried out?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disclose how you handled the money related to the R? </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what communication means were used? (phones, phone cards, schedules, letters, po boxes)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What happened to them now?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What friend(s) helped? (receive mail, calls, money, etc.)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where are the letters? Who keeps them for you?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you willing to write a No Contact letter with me?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about communications with others involved? Sister, Lawyer, Friends, etc.
  </font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve also invited my W and I to attend the MB weekend in Minneapolis Aug 2-3, to which she was "very receptive", and I enthusiatically agreed...I was surprised she was receptive...we'll see if we can make the arrangements to do that.
I asked him what he felt in terms of my W's sincerity in having ended it and he said it was hard to tell; that there were indications pointing to both options, and he was not sure.
I asked him if maybe Plan B was an option to get her to "fish or cut bait"; he said not yet. He still feels she's making progress, and that as we advance it will become impossible for her NOT to reveal the A, and everything else...I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, or if I can wait that long...but I'll try.

He feels she's making slow progress, and that the MB weekend will be great in terms of her "geting it" more, and that she agreed to answer the questions...so we'll see what happens.

She is still determined to go to FL 7/17-21, and she just told me so again, and I just don't see her willing to cancel the trip in the interest of my feelings...I just don't know what to think or what to do to stay sane while all of this is unfolding.

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>