Jen:

That email was great. Any man that would respond to a reply like that from his W with anything less than a whole bunch of "I'm sorry for being such a selfish, abusive jerk!" is a selfish, abusive jerk!

I agree, it's great you'll be out of town for a few days. I do hope you have fun, jen! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen,

I have been following your story for a while now and it's very much similar to that one of me,except i am the BS.
1. You ask respect from him but you have disrespected him in the most hurtful way imaginable, don't expect him to come around soon.
2. You ask him to change,because like so many WS you justified your affair by saying all the things he did wrong. Remember, you were probably not perfect either and he probably had a platonic or emotional affair during yours just like i did.
Except i and probably your H didn't cross the line
out of respect for you.
3. Luckily your not together right now, thats the big mistake i made.Everytime i asked my W about it or she justified it my love bank drained more and more
4. You probably also were the person in your relation that would say everytime A 's are not possible in it, just like my W and than you did yourself. She also started it going on holiday with her co-workers

You made the big mistake, if he still loves you he'll come around. If you have hurt him too much,he won't. It's up to him baby and maybe he can be a little bit selfish too right now just for his ego, cause you girls probably don't imagine what a H does for his W when they love you
and still you lied and betrayed him for your own selfish purpose.
I too tried too work things out with my soon XW until she said; oh crying again, commit suicide then
Talk about respect!!!!!!!
Just leave him alone , let him have his fun too.
Your marriage isn't going to be the same anymore,surely not in his eyes
Personally, i am glad i am not with my W anymore

So proud of you Jen...although a sound lashing with a buggy whip would do him know harm...keep up the good work.

And youre not needy because you turn to supportive people, actually your smarter than you were before. When something hurt you badly you avoided it and did something drastic ie his EA and your OM. Now when he is obnoxious you turn to people who can offer you feed back and insight.

We all need love, compassion, and respect. Plan A is not about being a doormat. Nor is making amends or dealing with recovery. You have accepted your past behavior, youre willing to help him accept it. He is acting like a [censored]. Not to ever judge anyone else's pain but I know what is to be betrayed and if I ever acted as your husband is acting now I would be very ashamed that I was so weak to dellude myself that I ever have a right to twist a knife in someone else's heart. I hope someday he comes to understand that he is not the only one who has ever suffered. He is doing to you what was done to him. He is reacting to how he has been treated with hurtful, intentional choices hoping to salvage his pride and assuage his pain. Maybe he is not engaged in a PA so he feels he stands on a pedestal but he is harming his spouse. There never is an excuse to do. You understand that...he needs to.

You are strong and far from needy...do not confuse utilizing positive resources like MB with weaknesses of the past. People here give it to you straight. We are unlike your friends who see things your way or his that see things his way. We are third parties who have no reason to sugar coat anything we say. So when we say he is being a jerk...we're not saying it because we like you over him...although we do like you. We're saying it because it is true.

I personally have told you when I disagree with your rationale. It is my opinion based on my experience, I do not say that I think you are strong to cheer you up. I say it because your actions and reflections show me you are. I am only telling you this so you dont sign off and think: "well they are being nice to me...I probably do deserve whatever he dishes out." That is not true. Yes he deserves his rage and insecurities...his need for separation and control. But there is a good way to go about it and a bad way. He chooses the bad way.
No matter what his reaction is I hope the angel on his shoulder gives him a whack.

Again great email!! Keep up the good work.

Let us know if he shows real maturity and decides to egg and toilet paper your house...(sorry he just makes me mad!!)

ayslyne

I felt I had to reply to Mr. Boombastic. (You must be a Shaggy fan?)

1. Yes I ask respect from him, the same respect we should all treat each other with as human beings. "Do unto others, as you would have done to you." By the way, it's been 7 months. This isn't "soon" in my mind. For how long do you think I deserve abuse? (You seem to be implying that being a FWS = deserve abuse.)
2. I accept all that I did wrong, with the affair being the paramount mistake. I just hope that someday down the road he'll be able to accept some responsibility for the state of the marriage prior to my A. It wasn't healthy for me to have an A to solve those problems, just as it wasn't healthy for him to have his EAs.
3. I quit justifying it ages ago. Sometimes I wonder if living apart has protected the love bank though. Here you may be right.
4. I never said A's weren't possible. I feared them greatly, especially with how close my H got in his EAs. I know it's demented that I had one when I was worried he would.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's up to him baby and maybe he can be a little bit selfish too right now just for his ego, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So in your eyes he doesn't have to be polite to me? It's okay to ask me if I "WANNA F@#$?" Sorry, buddy, but I have more self-respect than you'd allow me to have.

I am very sorry for how much your wife has hurt you. I'm glad you're happy without your wife. I realize our M will never be the same again, but I would like to try to work together to save it.

Sorry for the long rant, but I don't think my A gives anyone the right to treat me disrespectfully forever. I've taken a lot of it, and couldn't take much more. I had to let my H know that. If he tells me where to go, then so be it. But maybe, just maybe, he'll apologize and be a bit more aware of how he treats me. I was willing to take the risk.

Jen

Well, he didn't reply to the email. He showed up here, having not yet read it. He came to drop off a bunch of mail, and to try to have sex. I was on my way out the door to a running clinic. For those of you that would've had me skip the clinic to be with him, sorry, no, I'd paid for it already, and I did not want to just have sex again.

Later after I got home from the clinic, he phoned me, and again asked "wanna f---?". We talked for nearly an hour, about a lot of different things. The one sentence he said that really stung, and really rings in my ears, is this one: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You f---ed my best friend without any commitment, why can’t I have that now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know he's very clear on how uncomfortable I am just meeting up with him to have sex, and be his "f--- friend" as he said tonight. He knows that I engaged in these encounters only because I thought they might lead to more, because I want to save our marriage.

He is so negative about everything in his life. He trusts no one, except his family, and his 2 female friends. He feels that his career has been ruined, because of how he and OM used to be part of the same circles with work, and he can't be a part of any more of those connections because he can't ever be in the same room as OM. He's so negative, so far from the happy and cheerful and fun and kind and loving man he was. What I've done to him has flat out destroyed him. That combined with his very ill father and mom who went through breast cancer this year...he's gone through a hell year.

He just called back again and we talked for another 20 minutes. He keeps inviting me over there. Finally not using the cruede phrases...but....it's late, and I haven't packed yet...and do I want to go be with him? I don't know....I don't want sex, I want to love him.

This is so damn hard. If anyone is considering starting or continuing an affair, please PLEASE don't do it, you have no idea of the hell you'll be making for yourself and your spouse. Someone tell that Jeneca girl to read this if you find the time. She's in for a fall, I can tell.

Do I go? Do I hold out? I tried to persuade him to let me come over when I get home this weekend, but he wouldn't have any of it. Said he wouldn't be in this mood then. I asked if he'd been drinking tonight, and he said he had. But maybe he just said that so he could allow himself to have talked to me for so long.

I hate this so much. I love him so much. I wish so badly that I had never hurt him like I did. I don't know that he's really abusive, he's just still hurting so much.

The road ahead is so long.....and I really don't know whether to go over there or not. If I say no, who knows if he'll ever reach out to me again. But I don't want to give in to his crude invitations of earlier.

And I shouldn't be sharing all of this with the world but I can't talk about this with my friends or family.

I wish I could stop crying and think straight.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ January 08, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong> and to try to have sex. </strong>

some men try to recliam territory by having sex and lots of it. i dont know how to tell though.

You f---ed my best friend without any commitment, why can’t I have that now?

because it was the wrong thing to do, it was distructive then, why wont it be destructive now?

jen you have to be who you want to be, be the girl he fell in love with and he might come around he migh not. but know that you cant change him or change what he is doing. nor are you making him do the things that are making him miserable. He is doing that to himself.

just as he didnt make you have and affair your not making him be this way now.

seek to be healthy and look to him to be healthy ask it of him.

would you want a spouse that was continually blaming themself for whatever ill thing that may have happend? i sure wouldnt. be alive and vibrant. be JEN BROWN in all her glory remind him that there is still life to be lived.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'm not going. I couldn't live with myself if I did. No matter how many times he asked tonight, the point is he only wants sex, not me, and doesn't care how disrespecting me like this hurts me.

Unless he can find another way to pursue me, other than just sexually, I have a feeling we are done.

JB

Jen,

Don't try to reason with him but instead throw his words back at him. Yes it goes both ways.

When he makes those crude remarks, say would you like it if I spoke to you as such? He might be dumb enough to say yes because he may feel he is that low. Remind him that he is better than that and you must treat him as well because he is really worth it. Then let him think about those words.

Is he willing to post here?

Get some rest, I think all of this is just wearing you out.

take care,
L.

Well Jen the time is at hand for you take control over you and what pain you allow into your universe...

Time to quit using words, sentiments, or implorings that have anything to do with or apply to him...and apply all encounters back to you...

Use only I statements....

Every question you offer him is a chance to turn it back on you
Every demand you place on him is a chance to twist it back to your own behavior...

Jen all of this is said to empower, strengthen and anchor you....because all that is going is right now is you handing him the loaded gun...

Answer him from here on out with exactly what you want and what you believe in and what you envision...

Not what he should do..needs to do...could do.....only about you...

do you wanna ----??

Uh no I don't, what I want is for you and I to work together on creating the type of marriage that is worthy of both of us...that is exactly what I want

Uhh no I dont want to ---- what I want is for you to be in a relationship that is worthy of you as a human being with thoughts and feelings and dreams...just as I want for myself...and what I believe we can become...

You f---ed my best friend without any commitment, why can&#8217;t I have that now?

Because the lesson I learned from that is that hurting the one person I care about most in the world was wrong...and that I never ever want to return to a place of such loneliness and dispair...What I learned is the true value and meaning of intimacy, love, and respect...and that I desire that with you more than anything else in the world...and that I believe in you as a person so much that I wouldn't ever want anything less for you....and I will also never again settle for anything less...

Because I learned that commitment is a really important word...and that I will from this moment forward honor that commitment to the best of my ability...

Give him the same answers to each negative interaction full of "I" sentiments...like a broken record....

defuse his taunts and words that get attention and a rise out of you....

Quit power struggling over anything....
Use phrases back to him...
I want nothing more in this world than for you to stop hurting
I want to stop hurting
I want things to be different from now on
I can't change the past
I can only move forward each day in hopes of becoming a better person
I want nothing more than to travel through this world with you by my side

Say what you wanted to say in the e-mail...BUT do it with I statements...not with accusations and challenges.... he is in no state to be anything but defensive...defuse his defensiveness by not rolling over but by setting boundaries of what disrepect you will not allow in your life...and that you will not contribute to being part of in his life...because he is worth more than that...

Empower yourself and him to rise above the actions and pain that has gone on before...because you have learned a valuable lesson...and you are begining the journey realizing the self worth of yourself and of him...and you never will return to that place that brought you here...

You can do this....
You have no choice..for you have seen the dark side of disrepecting ones self and others...and you will only grow from here...you will become the person you envision yourself to be...who can truly cherish another person...

This fight isn't over...and things are not so dark that you have definately lost him...but you will grow from this and you will never go back to that place that brought you here...

And THAT my friend is a good thing....

ARK

Jen,

I'm not saying it is right for him to abuse you but let me tell you this ,he's not abusing you, whatever all the other people are saying here.
If he says: wanna ****, he says it for a reason

1.He wants you too show him how much you love him by honouring his request; for a man when a woman comes up to him giving sex,desiring him; he'll take that as a big love sign. He's asking you too show love the way a man prefers it
2.7 months is by no means long; i used to throw up every morning for 3 months while imagining my W
in bed having sex with another man; and those images haven't faded for him yet and neither form me although it's more than a year for me
3.You have probably turned him down during you long relationship when he wanted sex. You didn't turn the OM down in his eyes and what did the OM have to do compared to him in his eyes; give you a few beautiful words and listen to your problems?
Your H had to work to make a living, do shores in and out the house, entertain you, caress you, love you,...you name it
All he's asking for now is for you to do that for him now

If you want your H back follow my advice,don't turn him down, have sex with him 24/7, tell him you love him,want him,desire him,...and he will give love in return but it has to come from your side first

If you don't follow it, i'll bet it's never gonna work out; only wish my W would have done it

Some of the things your H says are exactly the same things i said to my W and the things you conclude out of them are the same things my W concluded but let me tell you : you're making the wrong assumptions, he's asking you to show you your love for him

"What did he have to do to have sex with you, whisper some beautiful words in you ears and I had to do this and that and still you turned me down often"(eventhough i said the same words too but of course when somebody else says them...)

Jen i know your H loves you very deeply, show to him you are worth his love and then the both of you will survive, otherwise i doubt it
I'm just trying to let you understand his side

I also don't know if you were each other's firsts'
but now that you had your fun he probably wants a taste of it himself too, not out of revenge, but out of curiosity and jealousy , and that also doesn't mean he doesn't love you ( he's jealous at you for having tasted a forbidden fruit, now he wants to taste it too and unless you show him you can be his forbidden fruit he won't come around)

if you want my private email just ask and i will be your marriage builder,trust me

Folks, I am so appreciative of your responses...I don't have time to reply now, and I'm going to be out of town until Sun. I did not go over to see him last night. I am glad I didn't.

Talk to y'all Sun.

Jen

Hi Jen - I'm just catching up with you.

I think you've handled yourself well.

I also think your H is depressed and very disturbed. Could be he's in an extended pity party and cannot climb out. Duh, maybe you've concluded this MONTHS ago.

So he had a bad year, huh? Well, so did I and I didn't do this crap.

I can't stop thinking about what would happen if you did a reverse 180. We hear pretty dern frequently about BSs who seem to become pompous when their WSs start off humble and remorseful - opposite of the "norm." We've already discussed this, right? He's being an a$$ and rubbing your nose in it BECAUSE HE CAN! He's got the upper hand.

What would happen if you turned your back on him? Not that I endorse manipulation, but do a 180 - tell him you're through and you're going on with life without him. You've tried to make amends several times over and you can't do it for ever. Auvoir, syonara, asta la vista, Tommy LaSorda. Over, caput, zero, zip, nada, zilch.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

WAT

We each have to find our own way, and our own path, no doubt. And it's difficult to give advice since we all have our own prism through which we view life, people, events, etc.

I will say this. It seems extremely disrespectful the way he's treating you, and regardless of the fact that you have made serious mistakes as it relates to your relationship, lack of respect is NOT one of the things you should accept when you have shown remorse, and have done all you've done to make amends.

Without mutual respect, no relationship can work. And I believe that if you accept it now, the lesson he will learn is that he CAN disrespect you, and that this is OK. And that is probably NOT a lesson you want him to learn; if he takes it to heart, you will never have a relationship worth having.

Why would someone think that allowing disrespect NOW will somehow change to his having respect for you later?

Just MHO.

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Thinking of you Jen...have a good trip...Talk to you Sunday.

ayslyne

I'm home. Trip was fine. To be honest, I didn't think about my H too much while away, it was nice to focus on other things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't stop thinking about what would happen if you did a reverse 180. We hear pretty dern frequently about BSs who seem to become pompous when their WSs start off humble and remorseful - opposite of the "norm." We've already discussed this, right? He's being an a$$ and rubbing your nose in it BECAUSE HE CAN! He's got the upper hand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we've already discussed this, my memory fails me. Can you give me a refresher?

I was just skimming some posts here and there, and it's funny how a lot of WS and FWS go at their BS like my H goes at me. They criticize the BS, they go on and on about how they failed to be a good enough spouse in the marriage, that they didn't meet their needs, didn't respect them, etc. It makes me wonder if I shouldn't cut him off in terms of SF, and turn into a broken record that tells him over and over again why I think I had the affair, even if he really doesn't care to listen, or doesn't validate any of my reasons.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why would someone think that allowing disrespect NOW will somehow change to his having respect for you later? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">INDEED, INDEED, this is what really worries me. It's why I think I need to stop allowing my H to come to me for SF, and then run. Aside from some talking before or after, that's all we share at this point, and it's always when he asks for it, which doesn't make me feel respected or like a worthwhile human being. It makes me feel like a sex toy.

But, when we engage in SF, for the first while after all that NC, it felt like we were really reconnecting with each other, now somehow it feels like maybe it is just physical for him, I don't know. I mean if after 10 weeks of secret sexual meetings he doesn't want more than that, why would I ever expet it to change? It won't change unless I press the issue, and stop allowing the pattern to continue I guess.

I just wonder what I'll say to him the next time he calls or shows up looking for SF. I intend to say no, but of course I must say something brilliant to go with "no" to make it clear why I'm saying no. The "why" has to do with respect, and my desire for more than just being his sex toy. But I need to put it into words that he will really hear and understand.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>I just wonder what I'll say to him the next time he calls or shows up looking for SF. I intend to say no, but of course I must say something brilliant to go with "no" to make it clear why I'm saying no. The "why" has to do with respect, and my desire for more than just being his sex toy. But I need to put it into words that he will really hear and understand.

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would put it pretty much like you just did. He is not showing respect for you and you are not a sex toy. You are his wife.
Michael

Jen

I wouldn't re-hash at this point your reasons for the affair...he won't hear you right now...and it might back-fire on you attempting to justify your actions...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Answer him from here on out with exactly what you want and what you believe in and what you envision...

Not what he should do..needs to do...could do.....only about you...

do you wanna ----??

"Uh no I don't, what I want is for you and I to work together on creating the type of marriage that is worthy of both of us...that is exactly what I want

Uhh no I dont want to ---- what I want is for you to be in a relationship that is worthy of you as a human being with thoughts and feelings and dreams...just as I want for myself...and what I believe we can become...

You f---ed my best friend without any commitment, why can&#8217;t I have that now?

Because the lesson I learned from that is that hurting the one person I care about most in the world was wrong...and that I never ever want to return to a place of such loneliness and dispair...What I learned is the true value and meaning of intimacy, love, and respect...and that I desire that with you more than anything else in the world...and that I believe in you as a person so much that I wouldn't ever want anything less for you....and I will also never again settle for anything less...

Because I learned that commitment is a really important word...and that I will from this moment forward honor that commitment to the best of my ability..."

Give him the same answers to each negative interaction full of "I" sentiments...like a broken record....

defuse his taunts and words that get attention and a rise out of you....not with huge relationship talks...but with what it is you want...

Quit power struggling over anything....
Use phrases back to him...
I want nothing more in this world than for you to stop hurting
I want to stop hurting
I want things to be different from now on
I can't change the past
I can only move forward each day in hopes of becoming a better person
I want nothing more than to travel through this world with you by my side

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think also you need to decide if you are in Plan A...and while plan A lets you set boundaries about what disrepectful behaviors you expose yourself it...it also gives you the plan to do so without lashing back at him....

Sometimes because sexual disrepect triggers so many emotions in each of us differently...we can get really focused on it...in reality you two are stuck in rut of communication that could be about any thing/any emotional need...

He brings up sex...you two then engage in conversations about it over and over again...
Break the cycle....
Defuse it within your self as well...
Remember that negative attention is better than none...so realize this guy is any thing but apathetic towards you...
And when you respond even in a well thought email...he still knows he has your attention as well.

Actions speak louder than words...if he is disrepectful with you about something...cut the contact off...walk away, say I'm sorry I have to go...

He will get tired of not getting attention from you...and hopefully realize that you two need to communicate a little more deeply..OR he will change his tactic and try another way to get you "going"

ARK
edited to say I am not saying that you attempting to justify/reasons for you affair...I am just saying that is what he will "hear" you saying..and will use that against you

<small>[ January 12, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>