HP-

Happy Valentine's Day.

I'm sending you some cyber hugs and flowers of your choosing.

Cheer up. Many of us have made the same bad choices that you did. The fact is, you need to forgive yourself. I'm still seeing you punishing yourself for your faults....

It's been six months since we've both started on this journey. Step back and see what you've accomplished since then. Don't look at it in the context of X, but in the context of your kids and your life....I think you might be suprised at what you see.

Hope you are well.

Thanks, Kily- for the Valentine's Day wish. I truly appreciate your support.

I was sleeping early last evening when ExH showed up for the boys. He came two hours earlier than I expected, I might add. My sons came to say goodbye, and I walked out to the living room (I was in the bedroom) to bid them farewell. ExH was already out the door--standing on the porch,back to the door, completely--ready to take off. I merely asked the boys if they wanted to take some of the chocolate I'd received at work. My sons said "No". I then said
"Joe (exH-not his real name), what about you?" He didn't even turn around, not at all--and he said.."No, I don't want it." Something to that effect. So there you are. I didn't care that he didn't want it--but to talk to me with his back completely to me--well, Kily, what do you think? I saw it as symbolic of the whole situation, and I should simply hear the message from exH, again.

By the way, didn't dream of being with exH last night. He's become someone I don't know anymore, as I'm sure I was, to him.

OLDERandwiser,

You said to me,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> going to say this a third time then I'll give up. You really do not get it. Here goes.

1) Your ex doesn't communicate with you now at all. OK ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I've received YOUR message, loud and clear.

Now I think I can give you MY message, to you. I come here for support and insight. Thanks for both. If I've bored you with my repetitive nature, I apologize completely.

I don't run around all day long talking about myself, or my problems. No one in my life knows the true heartache I feel 99 percent of the time. I personally am annoyed by people who talk on and on about their problems, so naturally I am not one of those people. I am a positive person, OLDER. I will admit I go on and on HERE, but it is safe to do so.

I do, by the way, communicate well with my children, and with others in my life. You strike me as being exceedingly judgmental, and that's fine, it's you being you.

You then said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4) If he goes back to you he sends a message that adultery is OK. OK?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh, Older, I thought that many here were in my boat. Many BS's are here, willing to forgive and rebuild their marriages. Have they given their children the message that adultery is OK? No, but they've given their children the message that forgiveness is possible in life, and that family and long relationships are worth the fight it takes.

I know that you don't agree, and that's fine. I appreciate your opinion. But if you don't think it's possible to rebuild a marriage after infidelity, what do you find interesting about this website? I don't mean to put you on the defensive, but many here are trying to work on a marriage DESPITE infidelity.

I realize, Older, that you're right. My exH IS NOT forgiving me at all, not yet. He may never do so. Perhaps he's right, perhaps he isn't cut out for a relationship with anyone. In the meantime, OLDER, I plan on waiting for him to come out of his own 'fog'.

I found your posting to me to be very upsetting and bordering on cruel. SO be it, I can take it. It is helpful that you made me think.

I posted you a thread (with your name on the subject) where I quoted someone, a BS, who had written words that showed me how forgiving a BS can be. Please let me know what you think!

Your final statement was,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not trying to hurt you but as far as communicating goes is he the problem or are you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Older, I think that many would agree that in a marriage where an affair takes place BOTH have a problem communicating. You're right!

Take care, and Older, thanks for your insight! I appreciate what you have to say.

H_P

<small>[ February 15, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: hopeful_person ]</small>

H-P hi,

At least I've got your attention. I'm not cruel, I'm just suggesting what might be going through his head.

I first wrote to you to support Bud in suggesting that you really should not have any hope of getting your ex back.

After reading your last message, when you describe how rude he was with his back turned towards you, I can see a chink of light.

My guess he is feeling like that because of Valentines day and is just disgusted not being able to share what might have been.

Perversely I think this may be good news for you. Maybe he can't move on, he still loves you too much and he can't process his pain.

Let me suggest the following, if it is advice it is worth precisely what you are paying for it.

I'm making the following assumptions.

1) He hates you for what you did. You took his home, his marriage and the custody of his kids and rejected him for a gigolo on internet.

2) He can't stand your pleading to come back. He doesn't feel your remorse and will not be second best to anybody.

3) He loves you, he can't get over this and move on.

4) Communication between you and him broke down several years ago.

5) He loves his kids they are all that he has left. He wants the best for them.

6) He thinks that if he came back to you they would think he was weak and that infidelity pays.

What could you do ? Could you do something along these lines perhaps?

Before you start make damn sure you do want him back because what I am going to suggest might just work.

H-P's 12 step program.

1) Use your kids as the communication channel. They at least can talk to him.

2) Choose a time when they are not preoccupied with exams and such.

3) Take them all, individually or together, and bare your soul to them. Just tell the truth the whole truth.

4) Tell them you have not been honest with them and you love them and have to make that right.

5) Admit that the affair started before the separation.

6) Tell them what you did and why during the affair and that your infidelity was a sin.

7) Tell them you are the reason they only see their father on visitation.

8) Tell them you made an awful mistake and that you are apologising to them and hope that they will one day forgive you.

9) Tell them their father is a good man and deserves better than you.

10) Do not ask them to intervene on your behalf. If they offer tell them to think about and do whatever is in their hearts.

11) Only engage your ex in essential discussion about your kids.

12) Wait as long as you can.

H_P-

IMO, you'd be wise to take olders's comments/suggestions with a grain of salt. For whatever reason (I don't think he's explained), your situation seems to have touched a cord with him and he indeed comes across as a bit cruel. I personally have found alot of inspiration and comfort in following your story. For what it's worth, I believe you're following the path God would want you to. Seek and you shall find.....

H_P,

I find it interesting that Older would suggest that you give up all hope. Perhaps he has as well. I do know that he isn't paying much attention to this site or what is about. It is about precisely the thing he says you should give up: HOPE.

What makes this site different is the concept that there is HOPE that marriage can be rebuilt out of the ashes of people's follies. That some of the worst pain imaginable can be overcome with hope, and ultimately lead to a better marriage.

He seems to have missed that point. Does HOPE always lead to the result we want? NOPE. But, life without hope is really not where one should aspire to be.

H_P, your exH may never recover, but you know one thing for sure. If he does, it will be because you had the HOPE it took to hang around and let him heal. Don't let anyone convince you to give up HOPE. You will reach your decision point in due time.

Hang in there H_P.

God Bless,

JL

JL you said. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I find it interesting that Older would suggest that you give up all hope. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please JL where did I do that ?

Did you not see that I wrote this ?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After reading your last message, when you describe how rude he was with his back turned towards you, I can see a chink of light.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Thanks for your replies!

I'll have to comment on them thoroughly later on today as I don't have time/privacy at the present moment to do so.

Older-You have quite a 'plan' set up for me! Thank you for your thoughts, will reply on them later.

Litchfield-THANKS for the support and injection of hope given to me. I can't tell you how much it means to me.

JL- THANKS to you, too, for your helpful words and support. Yours and Litchfield's words of kindness came at just the right time. Very, very helpful!

Before I run off on my errands--just wanted to mention that I did have another beautiful dream last night, about my exH and me.

I still love him completely, and I am waiting for him to heal. Nothing will stop the love I have for this man whom I've known for 30 years now. I prefer being alone as to 'looking' for another person with which to share my life, or 'moving on' , as is said. I thank God daily that we had three children together, and that our marriage gave me that, and so much more. I learned A LOT from my exH, and one thing I learned was patience--as he is patient by nature. Now is the time I have to really prove to myself I've learned to be patient. As an added bonus, thankfully our children are doing well--none of the teen rebellion 'bad' stuff many go through.

Just had to say those thankful words before embarking on my day. I'll comment on all of your words later on today.

God bless,
H_P

Hi Hopeful-

How bout this plan...

Gently keep doing what you are doing. In subtle ways keep showing signs that you love him.

In gentle ways show him that HE is your only one. Passively make him feel that there is never a chance you would stray. Tell him what a great husband he was, what a good dad he is. "Admire Him" an important EN. Make all of your interactions pleasant. I say do this gently because its obvious he doesn't want to be pursued.

Hopeful, you can meet many of his needs from a distance...when he is open to you meeting all of them, you can go in for the "kill"--Then you can really show him how much you love him.

Stay positive! I hear wedding bells!!

Take Care

hi hopeful. nutty professor back, I have reviewed many of your post. much of what you have had suggested to you is along the lines of my advice. i.e. your children namely daughter can be a line of communication etc. you husband was not up front with you about his take on cheating vs divorce, and did not really know himself either. he couldn handle the behavior you shown while involved with someone else. too, he is tender hearted and is not going to tell you flat out to stop trying to take back what you threw away. he's too gentle for that. you get good advice and support here, and thank goodness for that it helps every one to carry on. but I have to remind you of an old worn out saying..."you keep doing what you are doing, and you will keep getting what you are getting" namely nothing..
most of your postings and those of others are aimed at second guessing your ex. what does he mean, how would he react to this etc! when we try and get inside anothers head we are actually attempting to maniputlate them...your focus is one him...it must be on you..I have said before the you , you are now will not bring him back it must be a new you. then its friends first. then if ever, a new relationship. as a friend you must want his happiness, for his sake not for your sake,security, companionship, or what ever it is that you think he might provide you with. I have asked you a couple of questions in the past. questions aimed at measureing your attitude to your ex. one question was ...if you knew of a nice woman, who you think would bring him happiness, would you introduce her to him.. if you say no, then its your happiness not his that you are going for. if you can say yes. then you have his happiness at heart. you would be fit to call yourself his friend. in that you would be happy knowing that he was happy. .......I think it is necessary for you to program yourself for his happiness...believe me, we can tell when someone is genuinely interested in our well being and when we are just being manipulated. as older said ex ,gently soul that he must be, will not be second best or choice to anyone. think about my question ...is it a yes or no. and look deep within yourself. I believe you to be a great lady, fun, and a basically good person. but remember the old keep doing what you have been doing ..etc , etc. the question what is it.and how , or what would you be willing to do to regain his presence in your life again. well , back to the ward , god bless hopeful

Thanks to all who replied on this long thread.

I appreciate your viewpoints, as disparate as they may be.

Litchfield

Thanks for your support. I appreciate that very much, and also the comment you made about not being too upset by one other person's replies.

Here's what you said that I have been saying over and over, to remind myself of things today:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I personally have found alot of inspiration and comfort in following your story. For what it's worth, I believe you're following the path God would want you to. Seek and you shall find..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for that! I too believe that this is the path that Christ Himself would tell me to follow, although I realize I wasn't on His path before! (duh!)

J.L.
Older denies that he has said I should give up hope, although I reread many of his earlier postings and I do see where I could infer that message. I felt, as you do too, that he was dealing with his own 'stuff' and thus projected a lot of that stored up anger onto my situation. (or do they call it displacement?) Whatever the case may be, I am open to hearing his words, as I know he's being helpful to me in his own way. However, THANKS for the vote of support. I didn't feel like 'throwing in the towel', but reading his words did affect me adversely on Friday morning before I left for work. Thanks to you and Litchfield for helping confirm what I'd seen too in his words. ( no offense, Older!)

JL, thanks for saying,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What makes this site different is the concept that there is HOPE that marriage can be rebuilt out of the ashes of people's follies. That some of the worst pain imaginable can be overcome with hope, and ultimately lead to a better marriage.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I so want to keep that hope, and I do have it still. I love my exHusband, and I pray that he recovers and loves me again. In the big scope of time and how long the A lasted, it really hasn't been very long, has it? (my earnestly trying to reconcile-before my actions were not very earnest--duh, still with OM!)

Rlyhurtin

Thanks again for your great support. I will continue showing my exH I love him, in gentle ways. You're right, he doesn't wish to be pursued.

I like what you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hopeful, you can meet many of his needs from a distance...when he is open to you meeting all of them, you can go in for the "kill"--Then you can really show him how much you love him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I can show him from a distance, as for now that's all I'm allowed to do. It is so sad to me, he lives a mile from me--but I can't feel free to visit him, or just be with him. I messed it all up, the life we had.

checkers
I'd wondered if you were still around. Thanks for your reply too.

Thanks for noticing what I said about my husband's feeling on cheating . As you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you husband was not up front with you about his take on cheating vs divorce, and did not really know himself either. he couldn handle the behavior you shown while involved with someone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel I'm trying to manipulate my exH. I feel that by being loving , in subtle ways, I am showing him that I still care. If I don't show him I care, at all, how will he know it?

I do want his happiness. I have told him that it makes me very sad to think of him living alone, with the four of us over here most of the time. He seems to prefer it this way, so for now--he is happy living this way.

As far as introducing him to a nice woman, the question you pose...well, it is an interesting question. The problem I have with it is that in the long run, considering our shared history and life spent together--not to mention how we complemented each other---I can't think of anyone who would make him happier than I did, or could again. Sorry , but we share children--etc...and I've known him since preteen years. I am looking at the big picture, sharing children, etc. That plays a big part in happiness, to me, having a harmonious family that spends time together.

Checkers, I am thinking of his happiness. This man has locked himself into a little apartment, and has shut out the world. I don't think that is happiness for him, and I've told him so. He said recently that for now he knows he's being selfish, and thus that is how he feels--free to be selfish. I said simply that I understood. I was supremely selfish, so now it's his turn--in a different way.

Thanks, Checkers--for your help and support!

Older and Wiser
Thanks for clarifying that you weren't being cruel, just pointing out what might be in exhubby's head. Thanks.

The Valentine's Day thought is interesting. You could be right. He told me himself that he feels now that he is meant to be alone. Deep relationships cause him anxiety--I know that. I told him they can cause all of us anxiety, but aren't they worth it? But--for now, to him, they're not.

Your assumptions were interesting. Some certainly are probably true. He has said he does feel my remorse. I think he's just used to being alone now. We communicated quite well, even when the EA was just starting. I told him once that I really "LIKED" talking to OM on the internet. I was open about where I was headed. I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. He is more passive by nature, always.

Older, you said he wants the best for the kids. I tend to disagree. If he wanted the best for them, he would work on our marriage, even now. We made it work for 17 years, before I found the internet friend. It can work another 40 years, or more, very easily..if he gives me a chance.

Your 12 step program was well laid out. I appreciate your time and effort, but I won't be following it. I see no point at telling the children all the details, at this point. OM has been gone now 7 months. My kids KNOW I talked to OM a lot online before the separation. I dont feel they need to know anything more.

I see it differently. Telling them all the dirty details would upset them, make them feel worse. How would that effect their dad? He would be more upset, for telling them--and me subjecting them to hearing the trash. That is how I see it. ExHusband is not the type who wants revenge. He was ALWAYS a very empathetic, compassionate man...I know he will be that way again someday. I am sure that my exH would prefer I keep a great relationship with our children, and have them admire me as much as they do . I have always told the kids that the marriage break up was my fault, they already know that. Your 12 step plan...what is your reasoning? Curious to know, Older. By the way, I have told them I was wrong to date OM, at all during separation, and that it was a HUGE mistake to talk to any men online. I told my children that getting to know OM was the BIGGEST MISTAKE of my life. I feel that is enough. YOu then said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell them their father is a good man and deserves better than you.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have always told them their dad is wonderful, and I still do. I also tell them I still love him deeply. I say that there's not a better father around, and how great a man he is. I am sorry , but I am their mother--so no, I don't tell them he deserves someone better than me. I am their mom, so if I were to say that I would be putting them down, too--as they're my children. Furthermore, Older--yes, I did cheat on my husband. But I think I am still the woman for their dad. I deserve him, he deserves me. I am not a horrible person . I did a 'bad, bad, thing', but I certainly have a lot of love to give.

You did say, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wait as long as you can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I plan on waiting a long , long time. He is worth the wait.

Finally, Older, I appreciate your help even though I don't always agree with you. Thanks for taking the time to post here.

One final thought here to you, Older. Please don't paint all of us wayward spouses with the same brush. Some people learn from their mistakes, and can become a better person than they were before they fell.

Thanks for letting me vent here. I appreciate all of your concern and input.

H_P

H-P hi,

Thanks for reading what I wrote. Some folks have said I am cruel but I do not believe they are taking my words at face value.

Some also questioned my reason for posting here. Well it is simply that I can empathise with your ex.

Just over four years ago my wife also told me that she was thinking of taking a lover. Was there a comet flying overhead at that time that turned women screwy? I don't think she did in fact, and we are now closer than ever, but I still feel the pain and haven't been able to process it.

This is H-P's thread and she has consistently thanked me for my posts so as long as she does and as long as I think I can add anything to help her see where the ex may be at I'll go on.

You seem to have lots of ups and downs and today you sound brighter. Have you always been like this?

Some comments, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
We communicated quite well, even when the EA was just starting. I told him once that I really "LIKED" talking to OM on the internet. I was open about where I was headed. I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. He is more passive by nature, always.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've mentioned this several times. This is the precise point I have in common with your ex. Can you explain what you needed or were trying to do at this time? Have you discussed this with an IC? I'd appreciate any insight you could give me on this.

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Older, you said he wants the best for the kids. I tend to disagree. If he wanted the best for them, he would work on our marriage, even now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can assure you he wants the best for his kids, it is biology. You saying he doesn't because he isn't doing what you want is your judgement of him not his feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your 12 step plan...what is your reasoning? Curious to know, Older.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The basic problem imho is that he can't process your betrayal.

He needs to go through some steps before he can feel safe with you.

First, he needs to know that you have crashed and burned and feel true remorse and will never give a repeat performance.

You and he aren't communicating so I was suggesting you crash and burn by being completely honest with, and show remorse to, your kids.

I doubt it would hurt your relationship with them incidentally.

4 years ago you could have argued they were too young to know but now they are adult enough that they could be told everything.

They could decide (their choice) to subtly let that be known to your ex allowing him to move forward to find compassion for you again.

Now PLEASE H-P don't tell me he has said he knows you feel remorse. You make him uncomfortable he'd say anything for some peace.

Apart from here on MB I don't think you have really opened up. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see it differently. Telling them all the dirty details would upset them, make them feel worse. How would that effect their dad? He would be more upset, for telling them--and me subjecting them to hearing the trash. That is how I see it. ExHusband is not the type who wants revenge. He was ALWAYS a very empathetic, compassionate man...I know he will be that way again someday. I am sure that my exH would prefer I keep a great relationship with our children, and have them admire me as much as they do</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may be making judgements on your childrens behalf. Would you want a mother who was unable to confide in you?

What you believe to be true of your husband goes back to before your A. Your A changed him. You don't know him anymore.

Finally, another thing H-P. When you tell him, that it is sad he is alone and has no one to confide in. That is an LB (Disrespectful judgement).

Hope this has helped some.

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hi H_P,

Didn't want you to think I have forgotten about you. It sounds like you are getting stonger and are still are strong in your resolve to save your M. I admire you so much for that. I agree with you that some people learn from their mistakes and are better for them. That is what mistakes are for. I think back to your first writings and I can see that you are a truly repentant and soulful person, who make a dreadful mistake and wants to make something wonderful grow from it. Someone told me once that sometimes a flower can bloom in the choking weeds. I am sending you some cyber weed killer, use liberally. I hope you are doing well and not working too hard I read the last page of your post but will have to go back and read more. Stay happy.

Sharon

hi hopeful. I wasn clear on last post, sorry. I think if you reread some old post of mine to you, you will see that I too, think you are the best match for ex. I was speaking hypothetically. not that you know of someone who might make ex happy, but if there was someone, would you intorduce them, in effect give him to her. should it come to be that you were convinced that this hypothetical person could give him happiness. can you now put his happiness ahead of your desires. do you want the best for ex even if that means someone else. ....hard question I know its a measure of where you heart lies at this moment. more later..its time for my group therapy now. have to find my crayons and get ready. take care and god bless

Thanks to those who replied. I have posted a different thread about a 'letter' I wish to send to my exH. Please, if you have a chance--read it and let me know your opinion.

Nothing new to say now. ExH is out of town on business. I feel sick inside, wishing I were with him. Dream on!

OLDERAND WISER

tHANKS for giving the BS's point of view. Thanks for injecting humor, too--about the comet flying overhead four years ago. I am so glad that your wife didn't take my ridiculous path and that you're now closer than ever.

I know you find it hard to believe, but exH and I were close up until the EA began. It began on the internet--so fantasy based and silly. Talk about compartmentalization!

I suppose you're right, Older, I do have ups and downs. In regular 'life' I don't appear that way, I come off very stable and solid.

Today I told a trusted co-worker a little 'secret'. I couldn't find a paper that I'd received last fall. I told my co-worker, "Believe it or not, last fall I can't believe I functioned here at all. I was a mess inside, in a deep depression . Now I see that I hardly remember those days at all, and where I put things." She said, "A person never would have known it. You really hide your pain and down moods."

So, Older, I suppose here I 'let go' and simply say it like it s. But , dear one, bipolar disorder does run very strongly in my family, although I don't have it. I think I do have a certain amount of the emotionality, yes.

Finally, the divorce has made me full of ups and downs--and especially when I come here.

You wanted to know what I needed or was trying to do at the time of the A. I can tell you. I'd stayed home for years, and I think I should have worked at a real 'career' sooner. It would have made our lives better as my mind would have been more occupied, if I'd had a career. Secondly, it would have lessened our financial woes.

When A started, I had a lot of time on my hands...and exH worked swing shift, and worked weekends. He and I NEVER had the same day off, for about five years. In the late evening, after kids were busy in their stuff...I would sit and 'chat' with strangers from all over the world. Even did it in a foreign language! I was lonely. My friends were all married, I couldn't bother them at home with calls, etc. I stayed home in the evening, with my kids. ExH would come home very late, and I'd be in bed already. On weekends when I was off and exH worked, I'd tell H about the people I'd chatted with, and their stories. Thus it all began. My R began with OM by me encouraging him in life, and being his 'helper' type of friend. It developed from a friendship , and common interests...to an A.

By the way, no more 'chat' for me. I will never do that again. What a joke!

Anyway, OM convinced me to pursue some of my career interests, and I did--before the A started. The main need he filled was conversation. I worked during the day, when ExH was at home. I'd come home, and exH was gone, at work. It was very lonely.

Of course now I'm still alone here, but much more centered and realizing what I had , and lost. I haven't the same need now for 'conversation', as I have a demanding professional type of job. (before it was a little part time job-(non-professional)-began 3 years before separation)

Older, you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, he needs to know that you have crashed and burned and feel true remorse and will never give a repeat performance.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he does know that. If I were to crash and burn completely, then I couldn't support my children. My job is demanding, I have to be on my toes.

After my sibling ended their own life, I did crash and burn. (2 years before A started) I can't do that now, I feel I crash and burn enough on a daily basis--inside.

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you may be making judgements on your childrens behalf. Would you want a mother who was unable to confide in you?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe in 'confiding' in my children about everything . Please, not for me. If , for example, I'd used drugs when young, or had an active sex life, many partners-- I certainly wouldn't tell my children. (I missed out on all this, as a young person--I chose to rebel--in my forties--with the A)

Furthermore, let's imagine one of my parents had an affair in their lifetime, would I want to know? (married 50 years now) Heavens , no!

You're right, it's LB to tell him it's sad he's alone. I do know that he never liked being alone before, so it does make me sad to think of that now for him.

SHARON
Thanks for your note, too. It's nice you admire me. I will try to learn from this mistake in my life, for sure! I've thought of you too, and hope all is well . I like your weed killer analogy..clever.|


checkers

Thanks for clarifying, Checkers. Your message gave me a hearty laugh at the end--the reference to crayons was fantastic. Thanks for that.

I feel I can put his happiness in front of my desires. I guess I just feel that in light of everything, I could make him happy again. If I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't be this 'crazy' about trying to reconcile with him. We were best friends for years, never needing others besides our kids. That can happen again.

Thanks for all of your help!!
God Bless,
H_P

H-P hi,

You know best,

Please can you explain these words to me. Did you want to have put your husband in a sort of "c o c k" fight with OM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize now that exH wasn't equipped to be an aggressive combatant in the whole mess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

Hi Older,
Actually, interesting question. My exH always showed very little jealousy, or posessiveness. Note I said, "showed" it, I'm sure he felt it deep in him.

I think part of me did want a reaction from him, indeed. He never even suspected an affair, and here I was going out a lot, online a lot, etc. I thought he knew, and didn't care. That is the truth of it.

I don't know why I wanted a reaction, but I did. He just never seemed to care much, (didn't show it as far as jealousy) although I am sure he did feel it. Once right after D Day he did tell me he was very jealous. I told him he didn't have to be jealous as the OM couldnt hold a candle to him.

But you're right, for some sick sort of reason I think I did want a REACTION from my H. Never got one, except complete repulsion of me.

I know I've said much here in a quick spurt, but I had the time so there you are.

H_P

H-P hi,

I don't really understand the timing here.

Look at these phases.

1)You started chatting to a friend and discussed it with H.
2)It became an EA.
3)It went PA.
4)Separated from H. H moved out.
5)H discovered A
6)H filed for divorce.

Are these the phases and is the sequence right?

Who initiated the separation ?

At what point did you start lying about the extent of the contact with your friend ?

At what point in this mess do you wish he had fought for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him he didn't have to be jealous as the OM couldnt hold a candle to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H-P, That is one hell of a selfish thing to have said

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>

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