Ok, well I've finally found my safe place. It's been a little over a month since I've moved out and I think I've found my niche. I've been good and haven't been chatting with strange women on the internet, or in contact with any other female distractions.

For those that need a reminder my WW had an EA last Feb that fell into a PA in May. Over a rocky spring and summer I PLA'd and minimized lb's. WW was unsure what she wanted all through this time and broke N/C on several occassions. Last time I know of was 8/22. This led to my online EA in late Sept. Never met OW, but allowed her to fill EN's that WW wasn't. WW found out about my EA and asked me to move out. Moved out 10/18 to an apt near work. Started N/C 10/13 and broke it on 10/21 (1 chat online to explain) then back to N/C 10/22 and have no problem with it now.

That sums it up. I don't know if WW is maintaining N/C or not. Frankly I don't have the energy or the inclination to put any more effort in trying to find out. I've spent a lot of time evaluating our relationship and had come to the FIRM conclusion that what we had prior to her A was all one sided and I refuse to go back to that. I think that is what she's thinking. During a phone conversation she was using words like 'when' you move back home..... I think she thinks she was punishing me by having me move out. What she did was free my mind allow me some space to do some honest evaluation of what I want in a marriage. Major backfire on her part. I haven't actually put pen to paper to list the changes, but I know the major ones....

1) Treat me with respect
2) Share responsibility
3) Consider my feelings
4) Be accountable (trust issue)
5) Attempt to meet MY EN's

There are more, but thats the major part. To be honest I think what I said to her on the phone that day just bounced off. When I tell her it's not a given that I'm moving back in she ignores it. She ignores anything that I say or do that resembles boundries. It's a major control issue with her. Yes, I know.... She's a control freak. The only times she even attempts to address my happiness is when she feels her grip on me slipping.

This must stop. I try and tell her, but all I get is accused of having a GF or having my every word or motivation doubted.

Hey! I'm not the one that scr*wed another guy! Ok ok...No I don't bring that up, but maybe sometimes I feel like I should. We have had no relationship talk since I moved out and don't see any coming either.

I am in a place now that whatever happens in my marriage is fine. I see only two options, 1) Divorce, or 2) She changes her ways and address my issues.

Yes, I know the A was partly my fault. I know was all aspects of the part I played. The major part was allowing her to disrespect me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey! I'm not the one that scr*wed another guy! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmm something else going on here? lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> just kidding

Yes sometimes those things do backfire. Myad's A over his needs and wants has now moved into what I need from him (something that I never think he fully ever considered or listened to) -- and now I'm more outspoken about getting them..

As I said to him, his A changed the landscape for me too, and freed me too. I think now that is actually a very real concern for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) Treat me with respect
2) Share responsibility
3) Consider my feelings
4) Be accountable (trust issue)
5) Attempt to meet MY EN's

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put pencil to paper and write them down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see only two options, 1) Divorce, or 2) She changes her ways and address my issues.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about option 3 .. you find a good marriage counselor and you BOTH change your ways and address BOTH the issues you BOTH have ... the MC can act like a mediator and translator at times since it seems that you are both talking past one another.

way2

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>

Way2: Thanks for reading my post.....

WW has refused MC or IC. She refused AntiD's as well. She has also refused to read SAA or ATA, both of which I left for her at the house. She somehow thinks the A is 50% her fault and 50% my fault. She refuses to listen to me when I say the A was 100% her fault, as I had no say in the matter. I told her that yes, our problems before the A were 50% mine, but the A was all hers. She doesn't want to see it that way. I think she views our M problems and her A all as one thing. It's not. At least as far as I'm concerned.

I'll expand my list, but reading SAA and agreeing to some type of IC, CC or MC are precursors to me even thinking about coming home.

Yes, you heard me right. I'm at a point that I don't really miss being home. Sure, sometimes I do but it's not on me like it used to be.

Err, so, Harry, exactly where are you in this whole thing? It sounds to me like you're being totally selfish. Meet MY needs. Respect ME. Etc.

And if you're there, then are you in Plan B?

If you're still in contact with your wife and you actually want to reconcile, I would suggest a really, really big attitude adjustment, sir.

It's not about being right, as they say. It's about being married. You wanna be married? Then it's important to remember and take into account that you BOTH have things to work on (just like Way2 said).

- Have you ended LBs?
- Do you know what your wife's EN's are?
- Boundaries and respect are good, and are you implementing them in ways that are respectful to her?
- Are you negotiating for what you need, or are you engaging in punishing behaviors to try to get them?

Etc. etc. etc.

If your wife won't go into counseling, then I'd suggest that you go there by youself. There's a ton of work and learning to do in your marriage, and half of it is yours. There's no time like the present for getting started!

Harry --

Two people must work at it and I fully understand how you feel about not being home. In a way you are making your home now in your apt.

Go to my website and find Bramblerose's post about Plan A and read it ... I could be wrong but it may be time for PlanB to get your wife to see that this marriage dealy is a TWO person thing.

what do you other MBers think?

way2

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>

JustJ: Welcome and thanks for your post....

I plan A'd for about 7 months....yes, too long and it made me even more of a doormat.

Selfish? Moi? The single dad that took care of everything for years including the cooking, most of the cleaning, yardwork, shopping, bill paying, taxi service to 2 teenage daughters while advancing his career? Then finding what he thinks as Ms Right and marries only to find he didn't get a partner to help him carry the load, but just more load.

And please note mam, that my attitude here is part vent. I am not disrespectful to her in any way. I do not lb or stay aloof. I play my plan A part really well. I ensure I don't appear needy or depressed. When we are together I make sure she only sees the best of me. I am loving and respectful. She at times tries to goad me into anger, but when this happens I generally remove myself from her (in TMCM's vernacular) calmly, gently and respectfully.

And yes, I've done IC and graduated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm on an as needed basis now.... and haven't needed for several months now that I'm on AntiD's.

The WW has been calling me more and more lately as she senses her control slipping. She wants me to come over tonight and I agreed as long as we split the date responsibilities. I told her I would provide the entertainment if she would provide the sustanance. Then she dances around trying to get me to do both.... I told her is a calm, respectful and soothing way that the days of me waiting on her hand and foot are history.... and will not be repeated. I told her I would either do one or the other, but not both.
Not sure if she fully got it, but she gets a lot hungrier than I do.

Harry it sounds like your love bank for your W is draining mighty fast. Maybe it's time for you to consider implementing Plan B.

TMCM: Thanks for your input on this...

You think my love bank is draining fast?

Or is it that I myself have started coming out of the fog of my own relationship with my WW. Maybe it's that I'm now realizing just how one sided our marriage was not just prior and during her A, but our historical relationship as well. The funny thing here is that I'm now seeing what truely led to her A and it wasn't my not meeting her EN's. My part in it was that I allowed her to walk all over me and disrespect me. I never stood up for myself and said that's too far. I never held to my boundries and she kept overrunning me. It was only a matter of time before she decided she could do anything to me and get away with it. She knew I'd still be there. I never told you guys what she had me do 2 nights before d-day, the night she came home from her 1st PA. She had me trim her bikini lines.

To this day that disgusts me.

Not that she had me do it, but that I did it. I didn't question anything. I was Mr. Doormat. I Plan A'd myself out of self-respect.

Ok.... End Rant

I hear ya TMCM. It seems like I'm in a constant state of withdrawl now. Everything is a trigger. We spent the weekend pretty much together and even thought there was no SF, we got pretty close at times. Triggers to my left and triggers to my right, triggers right in front of me. Seems I was tripping over them everywhere I went this weekend. Don't get me wrong, I never let her know I was hitting these triggers as any R talk seems to be a lb to her. I'm still trying to get all the lb credits I can in her bank. I guess I'm too single minded and can only focus on her bank to the detriment of my own.

But don't get me wrong again, she has made deposits in my bank as well..... just not much this last weekend. Too many disrespect triggers.
The weekend before she came out way ahead, this weekend way behind.....net net just a little behind.
Overall since I moved out a little ahead.

I'm just trying to stand my ground. An alien concept with regards to the person who I regard as my other half, the one person that should have my back.

Harry I agree that we BS's are also in a fog of our own when it comes to looking at our WS's character flaws and our own. Your fog is lifting in part because of your separation from her, which gives you the opportunity to reflect on you, her and the marriage in general. The problem is that separation without a plan (a la Plan B) can also end up withdrawing too many love units from your love bank as though you had stayed in Plan A for too long. If it continues, you may not have enough love left to weather the extremely rocky beginning of recovery if and when she expresses a desire to rebuild the marriage.

So I should hit Plan B now? Before the holidays?

Is that the group feeling?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HarryS:
<strong> So I should hit Plan B now? Before the holidays?

Is that the group feeling? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harry as much as we try to give you some guidance, only you have all the facts and so only you can determine whether or not it is time for Plan B. But it would seem that implementing Plan B during the holidays may be somewhat hard because of a lot of curious people wanting to know what is happening with the two of you. So you may want to take that into consideration.

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Harry, much as you believe that you're showing your wife all your good traits (and I believe it, too), the anger and the disgust and all the toxicity seethe just below the surface and make their presence known in many other ways.

You feel, act, look, and smell like a cuckold.

So... I think it's time for Plan B, yes.