Back in late September my BS/WW told me she was going to the East Coast to see OM on 10/1-2 and again on 10/15-16. She took the first trip, came back, but then no mention of the 2nd trip and actually made it sound like she wasn't going.

Today she admitted she IS going, in this email:


I put off telling you of my trips to the East Coast because they don't accomplish
anything...except cause you anxiety that you really shouldn't' be
focused on right now. So, since you asked me to go to the zoo this weekend,
that is not possible since I won't be here. I will be here for next
weekend-my B-day weekend.... Im sorry to tell you this but I just don't
know what else to do at this point....


Here is my response. It's wordy, but I hope it got the point across in a Plan A way:


Well, last I talked to you when you were looking at the [NY nightclub] website you said you didn't know when your next trip would be, must've been a last minute thing...or you were just hiding it from me. Please don't, OK?

I want you to be honest about your trips because they cause me LESS anxiety to know in advance than they do if I hear last minute and am looking forward to maybe spending some time with you. At least I can be prepared for it rather than get a last-minute surprise. Honesty is much better than hiding things, don't you think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for my focus - I'm not FOCUSED on it. I'm focused on fixing my faults, becoming a better husband to you and loving you forever and never letting you down again.
I obsessed more about him before, when it was easier to be angry about you and him than it was to be angry with myself over what I've done to you. No more of that.

I know you think it's strange that I can stick around and love you despite my knowledge of him, but I feel that's the right thing to do.
What good would it do for me to say "I don't want to see you again until you dump him?" Then I'd be out of sight/out of mind and you would never see my progress or feel my love.
You are still my WIFE, J*****, you have been for 7-8 years, and that's what I want you to be again. And I'm not giving that up for some guy you don't "love," that you just met, who lives 2000 miles away...until, and unless, you give me reason to.

But yes, it does kill me to think of you in another man's arms.
And I know that your immediate response to that is "yeah now you know how I feel" - but since this isn't about revenge or hurting me that's a moot point. Yes, I DO know some of how you feel. I fully admit my sins and what they've done to you, but it doesn't make it any easier for me to imagine you with him, in ways that I want to be with you again.

I take back what I said last night...I don't mind talking about him, really. I said I didn't want to because it hurts me, but it also gives me some perspective and some truth. I wish he were gone, that your affair with him was over, but in the meantime I'd at least like to know where things stand.

I'll be fine this weekend. I have to be, don't I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm learning how to do my own thing and occupy my time in safe, normal, un-desperate ways, so it's not that big of a deal. If I can't be OK by myself I can't be with you again, can I?
I have my private lesson, maybe I'll go bike riding with [my male friend], maybe I'll rent some DVD's or go see a movie, maybe I'll call up [mutual male friend] and see what he's up to, maybe he can drag me to a gay bar ;0
I'll be sad that you're there and not here, sad that you're with him, but I'll be fine.
When do you leave and when do you get back?

So I guess that means....
NEXT weekend we can go to the Zoo, then! Or do something else, if you prefer. And since it's your B-day weekend, and your new hire date, we should go out and celebrate.

I will see you later tonight...

luv u mi



She responded since I started this post...the only thing she addressed were other parts of the email I didn't include here, on the topic of her new job, money, etc. Nothing directly related to the above.
Must be working!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Vnus,

I really liked that letter. It was mature, non whiney, and non pushy. Really good letter in my opinion.

Weaver

VM:

You're getting good at this.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Weaver...thanks!

However...it DID elicit this less than loving response...


I forgot to mention, I know you wish he were gone out of my life...but
the plain truth is...he is not. Every moment of every day I think of my
life and what is has become. I wonder if I married an insensitive,
narcissistic, philandering pig of a man who knowingly put himself in
OTHER women's arms. With women that (like "A") knew that you weren't
going to leave me but still chose to be with you....and one wonders what
kind of character a person like that has???

OM does not see himself as the bad guy..he sees himself in love with
a woman that has been destroyed by a f***ed up person and wants to spend
the rest of his life with me. While he may feel the role of the
rescuer, I have also made it very clear that he is dealing with a very
fragile person.--he has made it very clear that the reason he is in the
picture is that he thinks I am well worth it. You might agree with
that...

While two wrongs don't make a right...you did a great job of destroying
this marriage and right now, I am in no way shape or form ready to build
what you destroyed..I mean why should I?? Nobody HAS to have an affair
when they are having issues in a marriage...but keep in mind, I was very
ready to leave you. I wasn't interested in telling you its time to grow
up because I don't want to be married to a teenager. Mine may as well
been called the "exit affair". Yours were just plain ol f***ing
around....with no intention of leaving me nor living in an honest
relationship and that sickens me. There really is a huge difference
between the two...


But then...I didn't even have a chance to respond to the email above and I got another email, in response to an off-hand comment I had made earlier about our current living arrangement:

She lives in our large apartment, her Mom lives with us/her but is about to buy a house, I am living with friends, and I'm paying rent in both places.

So I made a joke about "hey, need a roommate when Mom leaves? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> " We had talked once about me moving into the bottom floor of our apartment and keeping to myself so we could all save money until the lease was up, that was entertained for awhile but then denied as things got worse before my HONESTY DAY of September 19 (see my compleat story).

So...she had just sent that vitriolic email and then 5 minutes later I get this:


A roommate? Hmmm...don't know how and when this whole house thing
will go but I know she is working on it. I have SERIOUSLY thought of
just getting a one bedroom apartment when the lease is up and living
alone. If by some chance things did work out between us, well...then
you could live with me and we could split the rent.
etc.etc.etc.


Interesting talk from a woman that just said "I have no interest in rebuilding, why should I?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting talk from a woman that just said "I have no interest in rebuilding, why should I?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because her email was largely fog babble.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While two wrongs don't make a right...you did a great job of destroying
this marriage and right now, I am in no way shape or form ready to build
what you destroyed..I mean why should I?? Nobody HAS to have an affair
when they are having issues in a marriage...but keep in mind, I was very
ready to leave you. I wasn't interested in telling you its time to grow
up because I don't want to be married to a teenager. Mine may as well
been called the "exit affair". Yours were just plain ol f***ing
around....with no intention of leaving me nor living in an honest
relationship and that sickens me. There really is a huge difference
between the two... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't she chastising you for exactly what she is admiting to doing herself in the same paragraph?!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> whoooo One should at least separate contradictions with a min. of two paragraphs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> An A is an A there is no difference. Married people don't date and they don't have A's. And no amount of BS (clarification: not betrayed spouse) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> will change that.

When she gets back have you considered pulling back. It really worked for me. Right now my WW is 1000 miles away visiting OM. When she gets back she will see that I am not as emotionally available as I was before. She missed me the last time I did this and was worried. So I will do it again. Bad WW no soup 2 years!~!

C.

It sounds like she is deep in the fog about the intentions and heroic like attributes of OM.

She also sounds like she has a lot of anger towards you, and maybe rightly so.

And she is internally battling love/anger issues with you. She still loves you or her email would not be fueled by such anger/pain.

Hang in there and continue to show her you have changed.

My DD's dad was the love of my life, we lived together for five years before I got pregnant. He is a musician and has quite a following of lovely, young very aggressive women. I was so terribly hurt by his meaningless affairs, knowing how much he loved me that I can emphathize with your WW. He never did prove to me that he could be committed and eventually I moved on, and so did he. It is one of the great regrets of my life that I did not have MB at that time or I would have known there was hope, and tools and a way to have a good marriage after multiple meaningless affairs. He now is remarried and we are good friends, but we could have had soooo much more and so could have my DD.

My point is don't give up!!! There is still love there, it shows in her email.


Weaver

VM:

You're doing very well, considering the optical opacity (tau) of the fog-babble, fog-latin that your W is spouting.

Maybe you should look up Orchid's posts about "reverse babble" and find a loving way 2 counter the babble with reverse babble. Let HER try 2 make sense out of nonsense for a change.

Where's her integrity? The only thing worse than the original A is a revenge A. Calling it an exit A doesn't make it all sweet and purdy, either. And, after all, she started having an A before she even knew that you were having one. Then, there's the knowledge on here, that her IC will be aware of, that it's usually the EA that's hardest 2 overcome, not the PA, and certainly not a series of "meaningless" ONSs.

Fog babble!

-ol' 2long

Weaver said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is still love there, it shows in her email. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver is right....

C.

VM:

Here's what I think. She KNOWS that what she's doing is wrong and unjustifiable, so she's saying the acid things she's saying 2 draw you in2 an argument.

Don't take the bait. Don't reverse babble like I suggested above. Just deflect.

Do you walk 2 school or carry your lunch? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

VM,

Ok, I really can't see any option right now but to give you this bit of info from my experience. I planned A the whole time, but, my wife had a deadline to my plan a. She moved out, and was in an apartment with OM . She asked for me to leave her alone during that time. I never even knew what apartment complex she moved into, much less an apt. number... I didn't have her phone number either. However, she would come to our house each morning and watch our kids, and even would stay every now and then and eat dinner, but the real kicker was her coming to the house on Sun. am's to go to church with us. ROFL.

On the appointed date (3 months), she knew I was about to take the gloves off...meaning, I was done giving her the privacy she 'needed'. She knew I would be knocking on a door, seeking the truth. Instead, she returned home that nite, and said goodbye to the OM. He still has contacted her, but, only once or twice that I've been told. We are doing pretty dang well and making some long term committments that aren't things you would do if you had any intention of ditching the relationship or were flirting in danger of losing your spouse.

Point is, she had a deadline, a time when she knew, oh crap...this is gonna get very very bad now, really really quick. For me, the affair was still a 'secret', but I knew with 99% assurity, just was waiting for visual confirmation or for her to admit it. That day she had to choose, have me find out, and at that point, she knew she'd probably lose me. Not because I didn't love her, but, with it being a fact, well, I would have proceeded forwards into plan b, and well, I'm fairly attractive and wouldn't last on the market very long. Plus, the realities of life would change for her, kids would now be going to joint custody, be exposed to OM, things like that...all the things she didn't want, and I knew it.

She tried to push back the day by one day, I told her...I haven't asked anything of you since you left, I respected your every request, gave you the privacy you wanted, never intruded on that...now, I'm asking you to hold true to your words of 3 months. She knew it was a request, but the implications of the next morning were gonna be extremely harsh.

Point is, when she was at risk of losing it, that was decision time. You know what, you screwed up. Have you forgiven yourself? Have you sought God's forgiveness? If not, do so quickly! If so, then you have the strength to see her wrongs, and realize life exists with or without her. I still think you type/talk way too dang much with her...I know you are trying to plan a, but, with the crap she is saying...plan b time. She needs to realize that life will change, and you know what...it changes when you stand up and be the man in your marriage. I just want you to be free from the games she is playing.

Call SH...I'm sure if you talked with him, he would have you make some definite changes in how you are doing this...I know you're afraid, and good, it confirms to you how much you love your wife. Now, be strong in that love, and realize, the only way for you to help her break free is to be stronger than she is and deny YOURSELF from her...

Sorry bud, but every time you post, I see you bending over further and further. I just want you to have your marriage back.

oh.. one other thing, I still get angry with myself that I let her do it for 3 months.. I wish I would have gone to plan b after 1.5 months... I had changed by that point, and it showed to all around me. If I would have pressed plan b then, my resentment level would have been much lower.

Have you read SAA? There is a specific section dealing with an affair in the air, and the ws just keeps on trucking, with no remorse. This is when plan b is recommended...it is to isolate the bs from the ws and their actions, as the more the bs is exposed to the ws' infidelities, the more bitter you become, and the more resentment you build, then making movign forwards much more dificult. You need to isolate yourself from her.

Thank you all for the great responses...
So...new developments...

Given the "fog talk" and "love/hate babble" assessments most of you agreed are true...then...

You'll LOVE this email she just sent:


I am cutting contact with you (unless its logistical). I can't take this anymore VnusMars. Time to save myself and stop this incessent merry go round. You are confusing... but most of all, you are a self serving, narcisstic, insensitive, self centered human being.---not marriage material if you ask me. Your only goal in life is to get me back and f*** becoming a better person (if that is even possible in your case), which also solidifies all the adjectives stated above--You are STILL self serving...spending every waking moment trying to win me back.---give your ego a break huh? I mean..after all, losing your wife would be the greatest ego trasher of all right???

YOU spent a very long time serving your needs with endless affairs...and convincing yourself this was ok....f*** this s***. Who does that??? I really am a better person than to deal with this s***. Maybe OM isn't the perfect one for me but then again, you aren't either-unless being a philanderer was what I was looking for in a man...and well..who would want that? No wonder I strayed, you weren't emotionally or physically in the marriage to even notice that I was "growing up" without you. It took an affair and me finding out about yours to even get a wake up call..yes...how sad..but that is the way the cookie crumbles. How so very sad all this...looking into my eyes and telling me for YEARS you would never cheat on me...and even kept up the "other girlfriend" jokes with me. My only crime in life was to marry you and think you were different from the pigs that roll around in the mud. How easy we can get blinded by love. I pity the fool....and that fool is me.



As RookKev and Weaver pointed out in an earlier post, I HAVE been a bit too clingy and needy and worrying too much about whether or not she will take me back. And we HAVE spent a LOT of time together lately which is allowing me to be more lovey-dovey clingy-needy than I probably should be.

Monday night we had a long talk in which she said some things that actually made sense to me and set me at ease, including:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just because I'm with OM right now doesn't mean I can't give you a 2nd chance later</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love you more than anything and always will</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just need alot of time to heal and figure out my head before I can decide whether or not I want you back</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
etc.etc.etc.

Keep THIS in mind, too:
Today she had to go to the doctor in a semi-emergency because of dizzy spells. I RACED to the doctor's office to be with her, left work early...definitely a LB$ that didn't go unnoticed, she was VERY appreciative.

But then...I got a bit snippy when she wanted to call her OM from the house since "he is worried sick about me", and I left "in a huff" according to my MIL who lives with us.
My W got pretty mad at me for that, saying "if you're going to spend alot of time around here you have to expect that I'll talk to him."

So I guess I LB'd it a bit.

But later, she had her head on my lap as I stroked her hair and we watched a movie.

But then after I left she TM'd me with accusations that I'd been snooping on her laptop, which were untrue...but it started a bad convo that ended with me saying "I'm sorry, I just want to love you while I fix myself"...

One thing she has DEFINITELY been getting sick of...are my repeated statements of "I'm sorry for what I've done, I promise to fix myself." She threw that back at me, and then the next thing I heard was the email above.
That's one part of Plan A that doesn't seem to work...the repeated apologies and simple promises...that's driving her nuts, she doesn't believe I'm being sincere when I say it, obviously.


I suppose I should take this email with a grain of salt...this same woman has at different moments threatened to move to be with OM, divorce me, take me to the cleaners, etc.etc. and hasn't followed through.

But here is my response, trying to be Plan A, this email went through MANY edits and many many paragraphs were cut before the final version:


OK...I understand if this is what you feel you need to do.
I'm sorry I've pushed you to this limit.
Honestly, I was thinking about all of this tonight...about what you said Monday night and how I've been acting...and realized that the way I've been these past few weeks is making things worse. I'm very sorry for that and I've promised myself not to put you through that anymore.

I will leave you alone, I promise. If you feel like you want to be close to me again, I will be here.

Goodbye J*****.........
I love you.......


Did I do OK? Please help...I'm a bit distraught as you can imagine, since this email sounded so "final"...but then I guess they all do.....

Seems like maybe the advice given to back off when she returns may be in order...a pseudo-Plan B of sorts....let her make the decision whether or not to stick to her email's claims....

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Well she is one angry woman, and she feels safe in going off on you. She knows you are going to take her anger, because you so desperately want her back.

I don't think this is a bad thing. You know if it is justified or not...if her anger is warranted from the way you treated her during the years or not.

She thinks you are manipulating her now to protect your ego from rejection. She doesn't believe that you truly love her.

When you love someone you let them go, if that is what they ask.

So yes give her what she wants.

Listen to Rookkev, I think he is on to something here about the time limit.

You are going to have to stand up for yourself soon, to show her that you do love her and that this is not all a ploy to get her back. When you love someone their rejection hurts so you can't take it for very long before you are forced to put up boundaries to protect yourself. I think this is what she is talking about.

"One thing she has DEFINITELY been getting sick of...are my repeated statements of "I'm sorry for what I've done, I promise to fix myself." She threw that back at me, and then the next thing I heard was the email above.
That's one part of Plan A that doesn't seem to work...the repeated apologies and simple promises...that's driving her nuts, she doesn't believe I'm being sincere when I say it, obviously."

Actions speak louder then words. Give her some space, start seeing an IC and work on becoming happy with yourself. I know I've said it before to you, but I'll say it again. Women do not want their men to be weak. Stop apologizing and show her that you are growing up, taking responsibility for your past actions and are working hard to improve yourself. I know it's hard to SHOW her in plan B (imposed by her- or by yourself) but I'm willing to bet that she won't be in NC for very long- and what you do in that time for yourself is important. Don't slack off on working to a better VenusMars even if you aren't seeing her every day.

I think I brought this up to you in one of my earlier posts and I will do so again. You are taking too much abuse from her by being too clingy, lovey dove [which she finds as credible as a politician's promises] that eventually your love account will go in the red and you will no longer want to save the marriage. If this happens and she wants to reconcile with you, then the roles will have been reversed and it will be you who will have a hard time dealing with resentment. Remember the 12 Unattractive, Ugly, Typical Tact...he Affair and Guarantee Their Own Misery? Well here's two of the unattractive, ugly, typical tactics that you are using to prolong her affair:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) Say “I love you”

Saying “I love you,” especially repeatedly, often pushes your spouse away and in essence, probably does not reflect the truth of what you really want to say. What does it mean to say, “I love you?” especially at this juncture in your relationship? Do you know? Does he/she? The words “I love you” are powerful in the beginning stages of a relationship where they match the underlying powerful feelings of attraction. “I love you then” means:

I’m attracted to you. I want to be with you. I experience good feelings when I am with you or think about you. Or, the words are powerful later in the relationship when special occassions recall the feelings that brought you together or when the stability of the relationship is temporarily threated and you express your commitment to your spouse. But, when in the midst of dealing with an affair, using the words “I love you” are inadequate and in reality, poor communication. They do not express what you really want to say. Nor does your spouse, who is allegedly “in love” with another person, know what to do with that statement. Here are ways your spouse might respond internally when he hears those words from you:

• Yeah right! What does he/she want now? He's/She’s just saying that so I won’t leave. Or, he's/she’s just saying that so I will leave the other man/woman. He's/She’s using that to manipulate me. So, I will walk away or not say anything.
• He/She loves ME? Yeah right! How can he/she love me when I do something like this. It doesn’t make sense. Who would love someone who fools around on them. If he/she fooled around on me, I know I wouldn’t love him/her.
• Hey, this is cool! I got two of them wanting me. Man, it feels great to be pursued by two people. It is great to be loved by two people. (This may not be acknowledged but it might lie behind a need to continue the soap opera drama.)
• He/She loves me? What is the world does that mean? What is he/she trying to say when he/she says that? I don’t understand. Is that all he/she can say? Isn’t there more he/she needs to say to me. How am I to respond? Say “I love you too?” Geezzz, it’s not that simple.
• I hate it when he/she says “I love you.” That really makes him/her unattractive. He/She seems so sickingly needy when he/she says that. And, that really turns me off. When he/she says it, I think of a whining lost little boy/girl who needs
reassurance. Sorry, but I’m not there. I don’t want to be a father/mother.

What are you really saying? Here are some possibilities. Do any fit?
• “I love you” means I need you. My life is incomplete or insufficient without you. I have little clue of who I am outside of you and I need you to define who I am. I cannot think of having a life of my own.
• “I love you” means don’t leave me. I’m afraid of life on my own. I am terrified of what might happen. Tell me you love me, that you will be there for me so I don’t have to think of making my own way. Calm my fears, because I’m not sure I can.
• “I love you” means I’m a whimp. I don’t want to rock the boat. I don’t want to really confront you with what I’m really thinking and feelilng. I don’t want to take a stand and say ENOUGH. I will tolerate almost anything.
• “I love you” means I’m sad. It feels sad to see the relationship and dreams crumble. It’s sad to feel the distance, mistrust, pain and agony. It’s sad to think of that which might never happen. It’s sad to think of maybe not growing old with you.
• “I love you” means I remember with loving feelings who you were and who I was. I remember who we were. I remember the good times. I remember the way it used to be. I remember what it was like to love and be there for each other. I miss that. I love those memories and maybe, that’s all they are.

2) Say “I’ve changed”.

In an attempt to persuade a spouse to stop an affair or restore a relationship you may use the ploy, “But, I’ve changed. I’m a different person.” And your behavior may truly be different – most of the time. You try to accommodate in ways you haven’t tried before or you alter your behavior to fit your perception of what he/she wants you to do. Here are some problems with this strategy:

• Is it true? Have you really changed or are you in a reactive mode? You are reacting to a painful situation by trying on different behaviors. There is nothing wrong with this. Actually you are to be commended. It proably takesa great deal of energy and conscious thought to alter, especially in a drastic manner, some of your habits.
• If you continue the new behaviors they may gradually sink in and truly become a part of you. However, these changes usually lack staying power because they are born out of reactivity.
• You will return to the old patterns, especially when the heat is off. And, your spouse intuitively knows this. He/she thinks, “This will never last” and is highly suspicious.
• Your change will probably be veiwed by your spouse as an attempt to manipulate. He/she will perceive your change as a strategy on your part to get him/her to change. If your spouse felt “cornered” before, the feelings will be greater now. Your spouse will most likely resent these changes, even though these very behaviors is what he/she has been asking for for all the previous years. More distance will emerge.
• You will lose credibility. Your spouse will not believe you or will not know what to believe about you. In 80% of the affairs, my experience and analysis tells me that confusion reigns. Your spouse is very confused about what he/she wants. By faking or trying on changed behaviors, you are only adding to the confusion. The message you are sending is NOT CLEAR.
• You will lose respect. Bottom line: people don’t want other people to try to please or placate them. They just don’t respect that kind of strategy. There is no backbone. There is no core self from which you express yourself and take a firm stand. That is not very attractive.

Here’s a common response I encounter: If you can change so easily now, why didn’t you change when I wanted you to change back then? It’s too late now. Some sadness or resentment may emerge as he/she encounters the new behavior, thinking about what could have been, but is no longer seen as possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see why you are getting the responses you are getting from her? Back off, both physically and emotionally, and not be available for her as much. Let her seek you out for a change.

VM:

First, my heart goes out 2 you. You obviously love your W very much. I believe that your As were nothing 2 do with love, that your love for your W was there, it was just lost for a long time.

Having said that, I think she made it abundantly clear that she's suffering some incredible internal 2rmoil for her 2 bounce so thoroughly back and forth between loving and hating you, reminding you in very painful ways that the OM is there at her beck and call the very next moment she flips.

Realizing the uselessness of "reasoning" with fog-latin, I nevertheless would like 2 point a 2ple of things out in what she said:

"No wonder I strayed, you weren't emotionally or physically in the marriage to even notice that I was "growing up" without you. It took an affair and me finding out about yours to even get a wake up call..yes...how sad..but that is the way the cookie crumbles."

Cookies may crumble, but humans self-destruct. Crumbled cookies taste as good as whole ones - after all, we chew them up anyway - but decimated humans are a pitiful thing 2 behold. It's particularly sad that she seems 2 believe that by becoming a liar and a cheat 2 be with a liar and a cheat, she's "grown up."

I think she knows this isn't the case, and that's why she's so angry. Why she expends so much effort 2 draw you in2 these raves of hers. I agree with RookKev and weaver here. You do need 2 be a stronger, less-clingy individual. I was like that for a very long time after d-day, myself, and I firmly believe that we all need 2 "get beyond that" at our own pace for it 2 reallly stick. Don't beat yourself up over it, but:

"OK...I understand if this is what you feel you need to do."

This was good plan A verbage.

"I'm sorry I've pushed you to this limit."

You haven't. Remember about choices? WE EACH choose how we react 2 those around us. She chooses 2 feel pushed. Sure, you may have been clingy and impatient, but the way 2 improve yourself is 2 just work 2 improve. Don't give her this kind of "fodder" for slamming you the NEXT time she goes off - which I bet will be sooner rather than later.

"Honestly, I was thinking about all of this tonight...about what you said Monday night and how I've been acting...and realized that the way I've been these past few weeks is making things worse. I'm very sorry for that and I've promised myself not to put you through that anymore."

You've said stuff like this before. It's time 2 stop and just ACT. Self-improvement time. Let HER look for the changes in YOU, if she's interested. Don't forget who's having the A right now. It sure ain't you.

"I will leave you alone, I promise. If you feel like you want to be close to me again, I will be here.

Goodbye J*****.........
I love you......."

It may or may not be time for plan B for you. Because of the particulars of your sitch, it would be particularly useful for you 2 post a draft plan B letter here for people 2 comment on. If you choose plan B, that is.

best,
-ol' 2long

VM,
If you feel like you want to be close to me again, I will be here.

I think this is the best thing that you can do.

JMO

God Bless

Doug

Wow! So many great responses overnight, I really appreciate it.
I'll try to respond individually to each of you on key points that hit a nerve:

EVERYONE:
You all seem to be in agreement that giving her space, giving her what she 'wants' as per this email, is a good idea.
Not so much to cut off all contact, but to detach myself from the day-to-day "concern."
A pseudo-Plan B, if you will.
I learned with the "honesty" thread from a few weeks ago that usually the OPPOSITE of what feels right is usually the way to go!

I do have a few things to say on that subject that I think are telling:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost ALL contact over the last month has been initiated by HER - she writes the first email in the morning, she says "I'll be on IM later if you want to chat," she asks me to come over for this and that (always something that needs done i.e. cleaning up the PC, going grocery shopping with her since she hates it and I was the cook, etc.), she invited me to come spend the night with her both nights last weekend after my shows (although I wonder if she just wanted to make sure I wasn't with OW).</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The "coming over for this and that" is especially ironic to me, because a day or so ago she accused ME of inventing reasons to come over and try to get back in her good graces. Hmmm, projection, anyone?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO detect some of what RookKev said on my other thread re: "how to handle a pseudo Plan B" - that the OM influences her against me - when she's gone a bit without seeing him or talking to him much, she's very conciliatory and sweet.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The first days I really felt good about just doing MY thing, last Thursday/Friday, were the days she was especially nice (but then I ruined it by being needy over the weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

WEAVER:
Yes, she is very angry still, even though a week or so ago she told me she had decided to set the anger aside. I guess it's easier said than done. Fortunately, these rants are all done via email - she hasn't gone OFF on me like this in person in awhile. In person, she still says pointed things, but they're more loving and rational. I think the "distance" of email makes it easier for her to vent on me.

I SOOOOO wish I could point her to MB...but she's not at that stage yet I think...

TMCM:
Yes, I remember that "12 Unattractive Things" you posted, I actually have it saved to my hard drive. I need to re-read it and also Katie Cotson's book, they have similar advice on "detaching" and letting nature run its course.

2LONG:
Yes, my W is, at her core, a smart girl. She says some really stupid and ridiculous things (like above) but she also says some very rational things that make me feel better, if not wonderful. She said such things after her IC session on Monday, things like "I'm not going to make any rash decisions," "I will have to know you've changed to take you back and I don't see it yet but maybe later," "I can give you a fair chance and still see OM occasionally, he doesn't influence my feelings towards you" (even though he DOES influence her immediate reactions to me, she gets snipey after talking to or defending him).
So...I believe she knows what is right and wrong and will come to grips with it eventually.

It's odd to me...she says "this A is not meant to hurt you, it's not revenge"...but everytime I try to talk about how it's wrong, she throws my A's back in my face, as if those are justifications.

Then to back off of THAT, she says "well I started my A before all that anyway because you were immature and I was growing away from you" "I was ready to leave you before I found out" - to which I say "so you weren't going to give me a chance then, and you're not going to give me one now?" My natural reaction is "what's the use?"

If there's one thing that DOES bother me about her, it's that - she's very much the "if I don't like something I trash it and run" kind of girl, always has been. And it looks like she's trying to do that to me, but can't because she loves me too much.

SO...pseudo Plan B it is.
Part of this Plan B will be circumstantial - she IS leaving town on Friday morning for 3 days to be with him, and I'm sure she'll be extra-foggy when she gets back because she'll spend the weekend trying to convince herself to fall in love with him (even though I don't think she's ready for that) and he will be working on her too...

But come Monday, we'll see...we'll just see...

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>