Can someone please point me to what is commonly referred to as a stellar Plan A?

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

I read HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS by Dr. Harley with a highlighter, focusing in on what I knew I needed to do in terms of my relationship.

I also greatly benefitted from sessions with Steve Harley. I'm still paying for this financially but it is well worth the money if you can afford it. He helped me with MY PLAN.

MY PLAN became my focus. I began to dwell on what I needed to do and not on what my WS was doing and saying. Right now, unfortunately, your WS is probably focused on convincing herself that she needs to leave you to be with the OW and is probably on working on some kind of plan to do that. She wants you to LB to convince herself that her foggy thinking is legitimate. CRAZY ALIEN!!!

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

GG,

A "stellar" Plan A....is just the best plan A that you can do. Let me give you cerri's guidelines...they're good, and will keep you from feeling like a doormat...k? When you do a great Plan A...you stop all love busters, you fill the needs that your WS will allow you to. You act instead of react. You offer the marriage as an attractive alternative to the affair. And you don't forget about confrontation and exposure.

cerri's guidelines:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks, again, mimi.. Sounds like you and I have some common themes here.

You may not have read all my stuff, so briefly.

OM is unemployed and 3,000 miles away. However, he starts school full time (8 hrs. day, 5 days week) starting this Monday for the next 7 months. Then he must study in the evening. I am hopefully that this will be to my advantage.

However....dream of WW and OM is for OM + OMW to move here when he finsihes so we can all be friends together !! Doesn't that sound peachy (notice the GA inference)? I've voiced my diapproval to WW, OM, + OMW. WW + OM can't believe that I would be so unkind as to not welcome them in our hometown.

So, I'm going to have to try to force this issue NOW, before I have new next door neighbors.

I've read the book (I'm going to read Plan A again), and I've considered myself in Plan A.

I'm going to reconsider that statement and see what I'm doing wrong.

I got home yesterday and WW was really, really distant. We sat down to dinner and she sat there with tears rolling down her cheeks. I asked if we could talk about it, and she wouldn't even respond.

Later, I walked in while she was talking to OM. She was crying and saying something like "Of all people, I thought you understood me...". She stopped talking when she saw me. I, again, asked if we could talk (silence).

Before bed, we sat down and she told me that I had never met her needs, and that she had been miserable for 28 years. She doesn't feel love from me, OM loves her, etc. Tells me there are more things about our past that she can't tell me because she knows it would be too painful for me to bear. She isn't interested in working on the M or helping me learn to meet EN's because "those things can't be learned, you just aren't the right person".

She tells me she's crying because I have told OM + OMW that I don't think it is a good idea for them to move here. I'm causing her to lose her
"friend", and he's the only one who knows how to meet her EN's.

I read up a lot on Plan A last night from the previous posts. Through all last night, and again this morning when I leave for work while WW is on the phone with OM, there was no LB'ing. I told her that conversation with OM hurts me a lot, but I don't think she heard (or cared).

I'm really having a hard time seeing how I can Plan A and not be a door mat simultaneously. Even though she knows how I hurt when she talks to OM, she talks to him non-stop.

It seems essential that you confront her respectfully about those phone calls to him, in your face, in your house. Maybe also read LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by James Dobson. I combined his approach with that of MBs.

All that stuff she is saying to you about the OP being her friend, etc. is FOG TALK. She is trying to get you to buy into her crazy thinking. Try to discount what she is saying. Right after she talks to him she is in a drunken stupor, under the effects of his drugs. She is saying what they all say. My FWH said it, too- the fog talk indicating the OP is their one true love. This will go away if she ever achieves NO CONTACT with him. Your desire for NO CONTACT to occur also needs to be communicated during PLAN A in conjunction with your focusing on her emotional needs.

Proceed with your PLAN A. What is your PLAN? What are the specific needs of hers that NEED addressing that allowed the OP to intrude into your relationship.

I asked about the EN inventory early in the evening. She looked at it and said she hates surveys like that, they're "stupid". I asked if we could just talk about each one verbally. She said for me to fill it out for her and she'd she how close I came, so I did.

When we sat down to go over it was when all the stuff came out about never meeting her EN's for:

Affection (Her comments: your cards & letters are meaningless, you don't stand behind what you say, I am dissatisfied with everything).

Honesty and Openness (Never has felt like I've allowed her to really know me).

Conversation (Just don't connect with her like OM)

Sexual Fulfillment (Never once made love to me because she wanted to, only out of obligation).

On the bright side, I was able to rank her top 5 EN's right (Honesty & Openness, Conversation, Admiration, Affection, Sexual Fulfillment).

My Plan A has been to spend quality time with her carefully listening to what she says. I've tried to do this without being judgemental, but there has been times that I've reminded her that she and I once agreed on the boundaries of a marriage, but we don't agree on that anymore.

I've told her (again last night) that talking to OM hurts me greatly. She cut me off before I even got it out of mouth and told me that I was trying to ruin her "friendship". That I am only concerned about me, and not her.

Due to input here yesterday with other MB's, I told her that I realized attending the MB weekend was something that she probably wasn't comfortable with.

I know that WW is telling me (loudly) that I am not meeting her EN's. But....how much is legitimate and how much is just trying to tranfer her guilt to me?

Too much discussion with her! You are the sane one.

Use your gut and ACT without DISCUSSION. Try not to be defensive. She has spelled out to you what you need to do.

Develop YOUR PLAN to work on the needs without explanation to her about what you are doing. She gets you off track by involving you in discussion with her. It seems hard for you to buy that this is no longer your wife. She is now a WW involved in an A. It's time to go into battle for your marriage and to put your strategies into action.

Focus on those TOP 5 Emotional Needs. Don't try to convince her in conversation or listen to her FOGGY TALK. Take a hard look at yourself and how you have not been meeting these needs and how you will immediately change to work on these areas. Make your personal change your focus. In the long run this will help you personally and you will become stronger. This will be a long, hard difficult process for you. You have to be ready for the task. The focus as you see is YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU. She will not be openly participating.

She does need to stop calling him in your presence. HONESTLY AND OPENLY talking to her about this is meeting an EN of hers.

That's the thing isn't it, how much is her trying to make the situation sound SO bad so she feels justified continuing her A? I would say quite a bit.

She yells.........you ask her not to yell, you tell her you love her, you Plan A anyway

She crys.........you tell her you are there for her, you Plan A anyway

She tells you it's no use......you say "I know", you Plan A anyway


She has lived with hurt for many years of not getting her needs met, she's now found someone that fulfills SOME of those needs, she doesn't trust (yet) that you will fulfill those needs for her. She won't give up the OM until she is sure she will have those needs fulfilled by you.

Plan A is a tactic to make the M better.

There are many parts of Plan A to change forever and keep within a safe, loving M.

No more LBs!

Fulfill her top needs.

I had read that you cannnot fulfill ALL her needs (all 10?) and you'd waste your time trying. Work on fulfilling the top 3 needs.

Conversation and honesty are my top needs. What I need form my H (and I've had to be very clear about asking).

Begin a conversation with something that happened during your day. Then when I start to talk, don't interrupt. Share things about your day that may be uncomfortable, try to put a feeling with it...i.e. "I got angry today when a phone call I was expecting came while I was at lunch...this puts me back 3 days."

Listen, listen, listen...the rules for listening (and you'd be surprised how many folks don't do this)
1. Put down what you're doing, and if you can't, ask to talk at a SPECIFIC time later, then do it.

2. Face the person you are listening to.

3. Make eye contact, actually look their way.

4. Do not change the subject unless the discussion has been concluded.

5. Do not interrupt but answer with slight noises so the person knows you are still paying attention and not going over last week's dinner. i.e. yeah, uh-huh, yes!, you'rfe right.

6. Men and women are different, women want to be heard...they talk their problems out and will find a solution on their own after talking it out (so don't beat them to the solution) and men want to be told they are right, want an ally, will figure it out on their own later.

Hope this helps...

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

There are some things that have ran through my mind that may be pertinent to my Plan A.

It was obvious before our M that she was pursuing me, and at that time I was a bit of a "scoundrel" (for lack of a better term). I smoked, drank some, cussed a lot. I had a lot of intense hobbies (learned to fly and took her flying, took karate, etc.). However, I became domesticated over the years (spiritual renewal had a lot to do with that, as well as maturity). I shed my vices, but also dropped my hobbies that excluded her. We got down to the business of child rearing at the age of 23 and were (if I may say so)pretty good parents.

But...I see in WW a need to "fix" someone. I sometimes feel like she "fixed" me, and now OM is desperately in need of fixing. So WW comes to the rescue. You may not be aware, but this is the 2nd time this has happened (much less intense last time). However, 1st OM needing "fixing" also.

Have any thoughts to share about this, and how this may or may not help with a good Plan A? I'm not about to adopt new vices, but I'm wondering if I need to adopt activities exclusive of her.

Georgia:

I think the key to my success, with the support of Steve Harley, was to take a long, hard look at myself. Your WW is absolutely wrong in becoming involved in an A. There is no excuse for that. However, the MB viewpoint, which I wholeheartedly support and agree with, is that the BS helps create the environment for the A to occur by not meeting the ENs of our spouses.

I get the impression that you are focusing on her, what she has done wrong and how you can convince her to change her point of view. That's where I was coming from in my last post. Right now she is focused on how she can justify continuing her A. Trying to change her mind from this in conversation will not work. Change for both you and your relationship will result from your actions at this point. She is too far gone. I'm sorry to tell you this. It seems too late for talk.

GG-

"She's never once made love to me when she wanted to- not out of obligation?"

What a horrible thing to say. I'm sooooo sorry.

You've hit on something in your last post.

I think we make a mistake in focusing too much on childrearing. Rather, it is important to maintain the romance in our relationships.

Take a look at what you keep saying in your posts, Georgia. You continue to focus on her and underlying issues SHE is struggling with.

Still Making It has offered YOU some helpful suggestions. What is keeping you from taking a long, hard look at yourself?

You're kidding, right? Activities without her? Well it might not help to get away from her some. However, I think it's crucial that you spend ALL of your FUN time together now doing FUN things that YOU TWO can do with each other. She's probably not too interested in that at this point, though. Realize that. Her goal right now is to make you into a BAD GUY in order to continue to justify her A.

GG,

You've gotten some good input on how to fill honesty and conversation ENs. I'd like to comment on this:

Affection (Her comments: your cards & letters are meaningless, you don't stand behind what you say, I am dissatisfied with everything).

So you *are* showing her affection, but maybe not quite in the way she'd like you to? I strongly recommend The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. Perhaps your wife's "love language" isn't gifts. Perhaps it's language and you're giving her funny cards instead of mushy cards? Or perhaps her love language is touch and to her "affection" is cuddling, brushing her hair, painting her toenails.

She is pretty fogged out, so try to ignore most of what she says and pick out the bits that will help you continue improving your Plan A.

Yes! Yes! The FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES, a wonderful resource book.

I agree wholeheartedly with TURTLE....

I will re-read the Love Language book. A long time ago (when W was not a WW), we actually read that book together and discussed our LL's. She said her's was mainly Quality Time and touch. It's been awhile, so I'll re-read it.

I think it is obvious that I have a great advantage in that she is telling me about unmet meeds. We clearly know which EN's are not being met.

Perhaps due to my right brain sort of thinking, what I need to find out is "how" do I do this?

Still Making It has some great things to say. I know it sounds like I'm being hard-headed, but please hear me out.

When WW and I talk, I look into her big blue eyes and listen intently. I don't interrupt, and I don't offer advice unless she SPECIFICALLY asks for my advice. I don't read the paper, watch TV, or whatever else when we talk I face her and focus on her.

An example of what happens...She called me here (at work) about an hour ago on her way to work. I stopped everythig I was doing until she got the where she was going and talked to her. I listened to her tell me about how her morning is going so far..about how she's looking forward to dinner with me tonight. She told me about her latest hot flash that prevented her from applying any make-up today. I told her that I think she looks great without make-up. I noted that she sounded like she felt better today (emotinoally) and she responded that she's about to get used to it.

Then I get an earful of "Oh, let me tell you about my conversation with OM this morning..." Seems she had an e-mail from someone else of his nationality and she wanted his comments..so she forwarded it to him for his interpretation.

After she told me all this, I told her that I was really looking forward to having dinner with her tonight (gee...get to hear even more about OM!) and that I had some unique ideas for the evening. (There is a local fair going on and we haven't been to a fair since we were dating).

Last night I was going to take her square dancing (never done that, but she commented recently it looked like fun), until I got home and apparently interupted the WW + OM thing.

However, I agree the change HAS to be in me, to know how to meet those elusive EN's, I'm just strugguling to see it all right now.

Again ----

It is essential that you not listen to anymore conversation about her communications with the OM . Tell her that you will no longer be indulgent of this. If you are eating dinner and she begins such talk, get up and go to the bathroom. Tell her that you have made that decision because you love her and she is your wife and you want to preserve your love for her. If this continues to happen, you will begin to get fed up with it and I think you will be the one who does not want to reconcile.

Okay, mimi -

Here's my assignment:

1. I will not listen to any more conversation about OM. I will, forcefully and respectfully tell my WW that out of my love for her, I cannot participate in a dialog about OM. I wish to preserve my love for her, which I find to be erroded when she tells me about OM.

2. I will seek to find FUN things for both of us to do that are maybe different and out of the ordinary.

3. I will re-read the 5 LL book.

4. I will continue to study the examples of a good Plan A (like the one by ARK), as well as in the HNHN book.

5. I will not LB.

6. I will not be judgemental.

7. I will work on meeting her top 3 needs (Honesty and Openness, Conversation, Admiration)

I love this line by StillHereMakingIt:

She tells you it's no use......you say "I know", you Plan A anyway.

That's one I'll try to remember diligently!

YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!!!

I will be routing for you. I love TODAY'S PLAN!!! Of course, you won't be perfect. This one of the most difficult undertakings in your life. In the end, regardless of the outcome, you will know that you did your best.

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>