native00,

In my case , I moved out of our house for what I thought were three very good reasons. First, I wanted her to be surrounded my memories of our almost 8 years together. Secondly, my WW has severe Rheumatoid arthritis and I did not want to force a physical hardship on her. And lastly , we had 3 cats that I dearly loved( now only two, one has since died) and I did not want her to have to relocate the cats.

In response to number one, she secretly moved out all my things( including our marital bed) so that her "best friend"( the one that set up the A) could move in. She also spent about 30 grand in remodeling the kitchen and other assorted things( these were strictly prohibited by California law against incurring debt while the legal process was moving forward at a snail's pace).

Secondly, she now "loves "our home even though she bitterly complaining about living in a two story home due to her arthritis. When I got hit with the A bombshell , I was in the process of designing an arthritis friendly new home for her.

Lastly, although she proclaimed undying devotion to our little furry guys, she spent almost every weekend abandoning them to go party with her "best friend" in the Gas Lamp Quarter in San Diego.

This stance has had me living the majority of the time in motels, a short time in a friends home, and a large portion of 8 months sleeping on my office couch.

To sum it up as per my attorney " you F****ed it up big time fella". If I had to do it over again, I would have stayed put. But I am sure that would have escalated my "love bank" withdrawals into bankruptcy in a very short time

Is Plan B allowing the A to continue? Lots of discussion about this, and it comes down to this...you have no choice of whether the A continues or not. She will do it whether you like it or not. Plan B protects the love you still have for her. Enables her to have the A? Yes and No. It will be easier for her to get away to meet him, but she will still have the guilt, and she will have to rely on this man solely for her ENs.

Some more words to say? Just suggestions....

Only go into detail about some fact if she asks... The BS can always make the mistake of saying too much and trying to educate the WS.

Her: "Trial separation? what do you mean?"

You: "I mean we will live apart and I we will see how it goes...it may end in D or it may not. I want to stay M though, and hope to reconcile. It is sapping my love for you seeing you go out so much." Don't tip your hand too far about the NC with you, it is what she is depending on right now, she is addicted to you BOTH.

Her: "But why can't we keep things the way they are?"

You: "But you're not happy, and I'm not happy, we need to change the situation."
Try to be vague at first to draw out a possible solution. Get her to suggest moving out if you can.

You: "What do you need from me to help?" An opportunity to work out support and visitation of children...hammer out an aggreement ands WRITE IT DOWN, WS are notorious for having a poor memory. Don't give too much money or financial support, expalin to her, "Think how you'll feel standing on your own two feet."

You....compliment the heck out of her, flatter her money skills, her responsible nature, say things like "I know you'll make the right choices." "I trust you'll be OK." It will be scary for her to be on her own.

Keep asking questions that are VERY open and non-judgemental, like "What's the plan?" and "How will we handle....situation?"

Act very businesslike. If you feel your emotions boiling up, be still and quiet for a moment, change the subject to something very unrelated, or leave for a minute ("I have to get a drink...get the paper...got to the little boy's room.")

The more reasonable you will be in the "break up" the more she will reflect back on this later and wonder why she left...

Respect her enough to give her enough time to find a place...talk about possible places she can live. Even drive around with her to look for places ...ugh...I know.

Why am I so hopeful? Because it was the rathole my FWH moved into that opened his eyes to what life would truly be like single.

Hope this helps.

Rosie, thank you for being so specific. I was hoping to not use a lawyer during Plan B because of course I still have hope that she will return. But as you and others have stated I cannot forcer her out. I have told my MC and MIL and myself and God that I will not file for the D. If she wants that then she'll have to do everything on her own. That doesn't mean that I won't protect myself, just that I don't want to get the ball rolling. Not because I'm scared too by any means. Just so that I can say that I tried and that she was the one that filed. So how does that play in, am I wrong in thinking that... please tell me if I am.

Cy: Thanks for your post and your experience. It is that sit. exactly that I'm trying to avoid. But your saying that your in between a rock and a hard place. You want her to move but can't and then you stay and get your love bank slammed into the red. Man that sucks, there has got to be a way to do this Plan B.

I've seen others here post that they did the plan B letter and than that was it.

So maybe then I have another question: What does it mean if the WW doesn't want to move out so that I can do Plan B? Should I read anything into it, or is it that they just want to continue cake eating?

Still Is Plan B allowing the A to continue? Lots of discussion about this, and it comes down to this...you have no choice of whether the A continues or not. She will do it whether you like it or not. Plan B protects the love you still have for her. Enables her to have the A? Yes and No. It will be easier for her to get away to meet him, but she will still have the guilt, and she will have to rely on this man solely for her ENs.

Thanks, I really needed to hear that again.

Only go into detail about some fact if she asks... The BS can always make the mistake of saying too much and trying to educate the WS.

Sound advice, can you be more specific on what to say and not to say... dumb question I know, I just want to make sure I got it.

You: "What do you need from me to help?" An opportunity to work out support and visitation of children...hammer out an aggreement ands WRITE IT DOWN, WS are notorious for having a poor memory. Don't give too much money or financial support, expalin to her, "Think how you'll feel standing on your own two feet."

Only what she needs to move out, ie. help moving her stuff right. In Plan B I will not be giving her financial support or any other kind of support right?

Respect her enough to give her enough time to find a place...talk about possible places she can live. Even drive around with her to look for places ...ugh...I know.

This has crossed my mind, I didn't want to just throw her out on her ear, although I don't think that will be the case as I doubt she'll want to go. I want to be civil and buisness like as you said during this.

Just another note on the financial/banking side of this. Your lawyer will tell you the court can order who pays what. In reality, your name has to be taken off of the account in order for you to not be financially responsible for the debt. First, this is tough in some cases. Second, if it is an installment or mortgage loan, good luck. Bottom line is if your WW doesn't pay the bill she is supposed to your phone will ring and your credit will be damaged. Collectors don't care much about what a judge's order says, trust me on this. In this area, there is legal and their is reality. Also, when applying for credit in the future, those marks won't disqualify you necessarily, but it will make for a lot more paperwork so always save any legal papers and keep them together. Unfortunately, some lenders will stonewall you with this so that THEY don't have to do a lot of work approving your loan. It is easier (and far more profitable) to spend that time approving 5 other apps ahead of yours.

Take what your lawyer says about this cautiously. They deal w/D every day, but they don't often deal with the financial aftermath, I do and it is not pretty, many times.

I am only saying to tread lightly here. I pray your WW comes to her senses and realizes what she is losing. I think you should continuously play country/western songs in your house that deal with nothing but the empty feeling that partying lifestyle will leave you with. Kenny Chesney's "Good Stuff" is a good one to start with.

Thanks for the financial advise Bear, it's nice when you have someone that is knowledable in a certain field giving you advice.

I'm pretty sure that once the refi. is done I'll be able to take care of the rest of the bills on my own. So I don't think she'll be able to screw me. Course she'll have a few cards in her name but I don't think I'm on them.

I'll be questioning the lawyer on his financial suggestions for sure, if I'm paying him big bucks I'm going to get my money's worth!

Native,

One other thought from me.See if you can't try and work with a Mediator first.We are all hoping that you don't have to go to any extraordianry lengths to have your WW move out.She really can't have it both ways BUT a Mediator is less adversarial than Lawyers IMO and experience.They don't have $$ as the primary goal in this discussion.I have had friends tell me that some Lawyers won't discuss anything with you unless they get their retainer.

If you must go to a Lawyer,make it clear that you are there right now for information only.You want to know what your rights are.You don't have to rush this along by any means but have a plan.

Actually,one MORE thought.lol We had a brief discussion going on here about doing a plan B while the WS is under the same roof.There was another poster here,can't remember the name at the moment,who was told by Steve to try it.I for one,tried it myself many moons ago and it was awful.I will try to find that thread and bump it up for you to read.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> . . .I will not file for the D. If she wants that then she'll have to do everything on her own. That doesn't mean that I won't protect myself, just that I don't want to get the ball rolling.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband REFUSED to move out (he had the A)! Told me I could move out anytime I wanted to! I filed and my lawyer told me under NO circumstances should I move out - that would be a big mistake. Neither could I persuade my H to move out! Those conversations have only added to my disgust for him, his total lack of honor.

When I filed for divorce, temporary orders had my H being kicked out of the house the next day. And the court would have permitted that I beleive because the kids would have been better off with me. And the house goes with the kids (according to the law). The court normally tries to keep the best interests (most stability) of the kids in mind, which means they stay in their home with the parent who normally provides the most care for them (obviously barring any abuse).

Because of our financial situation I changed temporary orders, and we are still in the same house but we are living in a somewhat peaceful co-existence and the divorce is moving forward.

I am always a bit surprised at the person who says THEY will never be the one to file for divorce, let the OTHER person be the one to do it. A good longtime girlfriend of mine said that after her husband walked out on her. She waited for 2 years - with NO contact with him at all, didn't even know where he was! - and I said Linda when are you going to get on with your life? YOU take control of what you want.

All I am saying is, don't place your future in someone else's hands so completely! It's foolhardy not to mention a bit cowardly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If your WW doesn't meet financial obligations, you will be forced to pick up slack, plan B or not. Just another result of her selfishness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am in exactly that situation. I have let my WW be on vacation for the 8 months of my Plan B. Just recently I have only paid 1/2 of our joint bills. I hope that she is paying the other half, but I won't know until I get those letters from our creditors.

Yeah, will I take a credit hit, absolutely. Will it be worth it, absolutely.

I WISH I HAD DONE THIS THE WEK AFTER I LEFT HOME.

Read my sig line quote from noodle. This is the single BEST advice that I may have ever gotten on these forums. I read it, understand it and am making her live it.

Native,

$$ talks and knows no bounds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> With that in mind you need to secure your financial future for yourself and your children. This means staying put in that house.

Now you get to be creative as to how you can accomplish this. Taking into account the suggestions above, I go another step into the realm of reverse babble:

BS: Ok dear, it w/b best if you move out and let our family (children and you) stay together.

WS: I don't want to leave my children.

BS: That's good to hear. The problem is that the children and I are a package deal. The OM is not part of this family so your spending time with OM or any OM advocates, violates our family's safety. If you choose not to protect our family by being a valued family member, then living in our family home isn't a good place for someone who doesn't want to make our family safe is it? (don't wait for an answer - just leave her hanging on that thought).

Ws: But.... (angry, stomps away). Hey, I want to finish this conversation.

BS: I just did. Think about it, our family's safety is important to me. Is it to you?

Ws: Well yes....

BS: Then let us be safe. You go play with your OM and his advocates. There are things about him you don't know and it is not safe for myself and our children to be around people who associate with such unsafe characters. (again walk away).

Make sure you do a complete background check on the OM. Do not look over even the minorest of details. There is already a spot on his record. An upstanding citizen does NOT have an ongoing A. He/she may look upstanding but not to everyone. So go do your homework. Don't let her know you are doing this.

Take the firm stand that your home is a place of safety for you and your family. This is why you should be there. You are protecting the welfare of your family. Present that point and stand your ground. Remind her the A does not make you all feel safe.

L.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Very well put Orchid.Words to go by native.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> I hope I'm not threadjacking if so please let me know someone!!

Orchid,

Good advice on listing out the traits/characteristics of the W vs. the WW. In my sit. it seems like the W is only around when the kids are. If the kids are gone or in bed it's usually the WW that is "home". Also whenever I talk about the M or my needs it's usually the WW, maybe I'm over simplifying here.

It is critical to identify your boundaries and enforce them on the WS. Even in plan A.

One of my boundaries is her not going out all night, then sleeping in and the kids are up getting into everything. Can you explain on how I can enforce that, since we can't control the WW. What I've been trying to do in this instance is to "have someplace to go" early in the morning so that she can't sleep in, at least not as easily if I was still in the house with the kids. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native,

The above is what you posted on Lemonman's thread. Ques for BS taking WS back Now how each handles it varies but the good point is that you recognize when she is a W vs a WS. Use this time wisely.

When she is your W with the children around. You can:

Love your children, do things as a family, be very nice to her and show your appreication. No need to lavish gifts but find out what things turn her own (like guys doing dishes, sweeping the floors in your boxers - don't mean to make you blush but girls like this kinda thing - LOL!!! ) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

When she is your Ws, you go into a very reserved mode. Hold back on the LBs as much as possible. Show love to your children, family and friends but not a lot of attention to the WS when she is a WS.

The objective is to let her learn by lesson to crave your attention. It will take a while and she may rebel a bit by manipulation or pushing your buttons. See the WS craves attention in the wierdest ways. Like a spoiled child, they think the more they act up (have the A) the more you will give them attention (even if it is the unhealthy kind). What a BS really needs to do is to withhold attention like withholding candy from a spoiled child. Other necessities like food, shelter and clothing are still allowed but not in a generous degree. You c/b blamed for denying her rights. Just make sure you give her the basic necessities while she is in your home and you are in plan A. Be generous to the W but not to the WS.

Reassure your chlidren of your love for them. Let her see you do that right in front of her.

Be careful and be prepared for a big backlash.

take care,
L.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

In answer to your question, and how Orchid has shown (great post!) keep conversations simple.

DON'T

1. Lecture or try ot educate
2. Any talk of MB principles tends to sound like #1.
3. Any R talk other than "I love you and want our M" or other simple facts tends to sound like #1.
4. Any statement of your dislikes other than simple boundaires "I don't like you going out at night and ignoring the family." tends to sound like #1.
5. Any conversation you are talking AT LENGTH about her behavior in a negative light sound like #1.

Thanks everyone, I'm running out now, but will reply to everyone when I get back. I know a lot of replying to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay here is an update for you guys. Also thankyou all, OG, Orchid, Cy, Still, Bear, Rosie and all the others. I'm sorry if it's so long!

Yesterday I convinced WW with much effort on my part by joking and laughing, to get her to go to lunch with me and do some shopping. Lunch was good, I opened some stuff up about me going to school. She opened about stress in her life. I said maybe we should try and destress each other. Next we went shopping and I bought her some new panties at Victoria's Secret (replacing a pair that I accidentily broke). I told her playingly that I would buy both if she'd model them for me at home, mistake. She said she's not sure that she can do that yet, that it wouldn't be fair to me since she doesn't know what she wants. A few more small R talks then I said calmly that I felt like OM/Other guys get too touch her more than I do. She didn't say anything. I withdrew after that, still being nice and cordiall but not the overtly Plan A I had been doing up till that point.

Later that night I asked her where she saw us in 1 month. She said she didn't know, what did I see. I said that it was up to her. I then asked what steps she was taking to find out what she wants. She asked why I needed to know. I said so I don't feel like I'm being strung along, also so I know what to pray for. She then said that she wasn't getting the separation that she wanted b/c we're both still in the house. I asked her what she needed to have the separation, she said she needed her own place. I asked what I could do to help. She said I could help with some doctor bills. I said I don't think I could do that. A few more comments, all calmly on my part without LB's or DJ's I think. Later I said that I didn't want to make her angry, I was just confused by her behavior.

Sorry it's so long, but basically she's saying that she wants to get her own appt. so I guess that's good as far as Plan B. It's just a matter of how, now. I hope it doesn't come down to Plan B, but I've given myself a timeline of the end of this month. At least I feel in control of something!

Any thought guys?

Great talk...sounds like you handled it well.

It is VERY common for hte WS to want to 'get away', 'think on their own'. Not surprised she suggested getting an apt.

About helping with the Dr.s bills...actually n ot a bad idea, for now, part of Plan A, if financial support is a high need for her. Working out paying half, or whatever...but do NOT offer anything in the way of financial help to move out... Help with moving? Why not, still in Plan A there, can help box up, and even moving boxes to the car and into new place (better than having OM help her...)

It's tough to Plan A while still looking towards Plan B. How do you help fulfill needs without enabling...sometimes they go hand in hand. If generosity has been hard for you, and you have been strict in the past, maybe loosen up a bit.

Help her now, but the help stops when Plan B is implemented, so make no promises that will carry over into Plan B.

Native. IMO I wouldn't give her a dime. Help box up, etc. but don't help financially. That would make it way to easy on her. Let her startt out alone "in the debt hole". It will help make her single experience that much more miserable. Think of her money as a pot. Out of this pot comes her party money. The less $ there, the less to party, the more reality she gets to experience. Why throw any money that belongs to you and your kids into the pot to help with her destructive behavior. Your willingness to let her leave should be enough for her.

I am having a hard time with all this. WW wants to have that life, treat you that way, the response should be to get the F out, said lovingly. Human nature is to want what you can't have. I guarantee she knows she could come back to you at any time. What if you were no longer available to her? What if you rejected her? From what I understand their is no OM, rather a lifestyle she craves. Will she really leave her kids?

I ask this because we are in similar circumstances except my WW has never whispered the "own place" word. Will the being nice and helping her on her way thing work?