Saga,<P>I (hopefully) have short story for you.<P>I am newly married (3 months + 11 days by today) and I've been flooding my H with Dr. Harley's basic concepts since I sensed that my H had an OW (he knew her from the net). He knew her since our engagement period (5 mths before the wedding). He wouldn't call her an OW since he truly believed that they are sincerely friend. I felt uncomfortable and had told him many many times because :<P>a. She never show any interest in knowing me eventhough she knew that he was an engaged man and later on...married.<BR>b. I sent her once an introduction friendly email (since she does not want to know me, I decided to take the initiative) but her reply was just a so-so, saying that she was too busy and later on I found out that she called my husband right after she received it and asked him,"Why should she sent me an e-mail"<BR>c. My husband took the initiative to introduce us personally but she kept on avoiding us.<P>I kept on feeling suspicious and yet he said that I am overreacted. Until one day I got a news from my mother's client (she does not now know us) who apparently the OW's best friend that our names were very familiar to hear ear. The OW cried her heart out to her and she was furious at her but they remains friends. Later on, the OW friend was so surpised to see our wedding invitation because she'd been hearing the names for months. Hence, she decided to tell my Mother about the OW. She mentioned that the OW confessed to her that she DID avoid my H to introduce me to her. And she also mentioned that they had been going out together. This is something I did not know and I was very concern why my H did not tell me about this. For me he had broken the rule of opennes and honesty.<P>I confronted this with my H (we were married only for a month by that time) and said that this had really disturbed me. He defended him self that nothing happened. He did not even touch her. They were only going out for dinner and he did not tell me because he did not want to make me angry. I told him the other side of the story and thanks God he decided that things had gotten out of hand.<P>To make a long story short, after he got rid of her (sent her a good bye letter), I had a hard times in trusting him again. My first reaction was to get divorce because I don't think I'd be able to trust him again (how could he have dinner with her but didn't tell me and still thickening his head saying that this was not an affair? What if the OW friend did not tell me about their dinners, I wouldn't know this and would not make a fuss about it and things will still be going on). But yet I saw the deeply remorse feeling in him for neglecting my feeling and I could really feel that he truly changed so I decided to give him another chance.<P>The good news is, our relationship has changed now. He is more sensitive with my needs and he really appreciate me for giving me a second chance. We all learnt something from it. I never regret that I married him...thanks to Dr. Harley that taught us the joint Policy Agreement and also how to meet each other emotional needs, and also I thanked this forum very much to give me so many insight (thought they may not realise it ) and kept me strong in regaining my trust over my husband.<P>From where I come from, we call marriage is like a buying a cat in the sack. You will not really know what you get til you buy it. But the chance is there and there's always way to build it and this forum is one of those. <P>Saskia<P>------------------<BR>Time heals all wounds.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Saskia (edited June 10, 1999).]

Just wondering....<P>Did one of your parents cheat - or his? I think that makes a difference, at least in my two marriages it did. My husbands mothers and fathers both cheated. Mine didn't, and I don't.<P>My adult kids are scared of marriage - after seeing what their dad did to our family with cheating.<P>My husband's kids have a very relaxed attitude toward sex and fidelity. Both of their parents cheated...<P>Just wondering about your situation.<P>

Connie,<P>Believe it or not but my Dad has 2 wives and this is permitted by the government and religion. Many men did that openly in Indonesia. Actually religion has a very strict rule about it : You can married other woman ONLY IF you can be totally fair in all aspects (financially, emotionally, times...you name it)to the wives. NO MAN could ever do that. But as usual, this is abused by many men. In the old time (and I mean, very VERY old. During the King Richard times), this was meant to protect and support widows that lost their husbands at war. Anyway, My Mom is his second wife. He used to stay 3 nights in our house and 4 nights in his other house. His kids are getting along very well with us and my mother, most of them were living with us before they got married and one of them is still living with us , I thought that they are my Mother's kids for 15 years because we are so close with each other. Despite that fact that he has always been a good father to us, he was not a good husband to his both wives. My mother said that marrying him is the biggest mistake she ever made (I asked her what she was thinking by then and she never reply) and they are separated 10 years a go. Now he is living with his first wive and still visiting us once a week. His first wife has not known our presence so sometimes I wonder what if he dies earlier than his wife...what should we do?<P>If you ask my opinion, I guess that is sickening. And the fact that my society support this system does not make me any easier and relax in facing this. I promised my self, that the day I found out that my husband has another wife (God Forbid!!!) would be the last day I sleep in the same room with him. And I will file for divorce on the next working day (just in case I found it on Friday).<P>Saskia<P>

Saskia, your situation sounds a lot like mine...<P>In my case, the OW (friend) has treated me as if I don't exist...and that's the real problem, not so much the friendship. My H has other female friends from his old job (though he's not in touch with them as often) and they don't bother me...because they're very nice to me and recognize that in the friendship with him, I'm part of the package. This one doesn't.<P>It's entirely possible that he just sees her as a friend and doesn't recognize that she's laying a trap for him to be more.<P>But I think that in dealing with opposite-sex "friends", that's the real issue.

Dazed--<P>Thanks, you brought up a very interesting thought....<P>Men and women ARE confused sometimes about the boundaries of friendship with the opposite sex. My hubby and I have both experienced that--we think our opposite sex friends are just wanting friendship, a jealousy might spark, then we have to consider what we might not have seen (or thought we could handle, remaining in the realm of friendship only). <P>A true opposite-sex friend DOES show interest in their friend's mate, and would not shy away from introductions or topics concerning them. If the friendship, at the friend's insistence, remains with only one out of the couple, it's time to review the reasons. In many cases, opposite-sex friends are attracted to the person sexually as well, whether anything (like an affair) comes from it or not. <P>Kind of a goofy thought, but one that is pertinent, lol...remember in the movie "Saturday Night Fever" at the end, where Stephanie and Tony are talking in her apartment? She says "you wanna be friends? just friends? can you STAND being just friends with a girl?" Tony smiles, pauses, and says "I don't know. I can try."<P>In this day and age, we all want to be modern...have opposite-sex friends, be "above" our primal instincts. lol. Of course friendships are going to crop up. We as couples are not together 24 hrs. a day. We have jobs, different interests, are solely exposed to people as a result of that separateness. We need to remember basic courtesies to our significant others--honesty, openness, introductions to those new friends, assessing their reactions and talking about it, soothing feelings, AND complying with what makes the other comfortable too!<P>Not only can opposite-sex friends sometimes be flirty, we have to remember how people construe things too. If your SO is feeling uncomfortable/insecure with the behavior, or your own reaction TO that behavior, it's time to fix it in a way that works. That includes options of ending the friendship (because it isn't worth the ruffled feathers of a mate), redirecting the friendship onto "safer turf," or involving your mate in the activity shared by the friend. Whatever works. I think the problems begin when the mate isn't responsive to the worries created by the friendship. It sparks hurtful feelings of disinterest in THEM, which can escalate when that nervousness is left unattended. It's easier to read more into situations. The rift becomes even wider if things are deliberately hidden and found out later. While the mate may think they're protecting their SO's feelings by withholding information, it's really quite destructive.<P>Relationships are a lot of hard work! Especially the best ones. :-)<BR><P>------------------<BR>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<P>Laura<P><BR>

Saga,<P>In this months's Harley newsletter, he defines infidelity/betrayal as anything the offended spouse says it is. If your spouse feels betrayed, it really doesn't matter what the cause of it is (emotional, sexual, financial). A rift has been created, and if not fixed, could end up in a divorce. The divorce is the tragedy. Would it really matter WHY the divorce occurred? The end result is the same. About 20 yrs. ago, my parents were having severe problems (due to alcoholism) and both had affairs. They stayed married through that and never considered divorce. Now, after 35 years of marriage, my dad considered divorce, guess why? Financial reasons. My mom spent a large amount of money without telling him. THAT was the biggest betrayal to my dad. I guess my point is, yes, infidelity is a very, very serious threat to a marriage. However, focusing only on possible infidelity closes one's eyes to the many ways people can isolate and hurt each other in a marriage. <P>Fighter mentions that 90% of divorces are due to infidelity. I tend to think that those statistics hide a deeper truth. When people are unhappy, it is easier to leave a relationship when someone else is standing in the wings. Also, people find it easier to point to one thing and say "AH, HAH", now there is the reason! In any divorce, one or both people decide to give up. I've seen people get a divorce over the stupidest things. I've seen people stay together through the most aggregious situations. In the end, it all comes down to how hard both people are willing to work to stay together.

Saga,<P>I don't think any of us here ever wanted infidelity to invade our lives. <P>When I got married in 1991 that was the happiest day of my life. I never thought I would suffer the way I did over the years.<P>A marriage is alot of work. It is like a plant that grows. You need to put alot of love into it and nuture it, give it all the proper things to make it bigger and better.<P>When the problems arise you hope that they can be overcome them together.<P>Try to keep the lines of communication open and try to have a happy and healthy relationship from the start and maybe your life wont turn upside down and you'll never have to post here.<P>Good Luck, Q<P><P>------------------<BR>

Saga:<P>"Working" on a marriage can mean different things to different people. In general, however, it means actively guarding against pitfalls. It means keeping the lines of communication open. When one of you feels down about something, you need to let the other know. If you like or dislike something your partner does or says, you have to say so.<P>You have to be loving and learn how to listen actively without judging. You have to learn how to avoid lovebusters. You have to learn to follow the policy of joint agreement. You have to THINK before you act.<P>It's not easy. You have to realize that your actions have an impact on another person, and therefore you need to consider THAT person's feelings as well as your own.<P>I don't know how else to put it. You simply MUST work at being a careful, considerate person. Infidelities occur when your TAKER takes control and you stop "caring" as much about your partner's stake and MORE about how things FEEL to you.<P>Does any of this make sense? I'm not good at expressing the touchy-feely stuff. I'm a thinker and a rationalizer. Feelings and emotions are very difficult for me to articulate.<P>Hope I've helped a little. <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<BR>

Saga,<P>To have a happy marriage, you need to acquire skills to make the marriage successful. These are relationship skills. You and your husband-to-be? are currently doing great right now---you've got those skills (by luck). But with time, a marriage changes. And you need to react to those changes responsibly, so that love grows.<P>The best piece of advice that I have for you is to purchase the book "The Four Gifts of Love" from this website, and go over it with your boyfriend. This book will teach you the skills that you'll need. It'll seem silly and superfluous to do this now---you're so in love. But trust me, learning to apply these skills to a great relationship is easy (because they make sense), and they'll help you get over difficult times TOGETHER. You and your boyfriend will make lots of mistakes in your marriage. But you'll learn to deal with them effectively through the framework of these skills.<P>Your comments about infidelity come because you haven't been through it (yes, you are young and naive). You can't have any idea of how you'll deal with it until you are truly facing it.<P>I could have never imagined my wife having an affair.<BR>I couldn have never imagined trying to save my marriage while the affair was ongoing.<BR>I could have never imagined separating from my wife and children.<BR>I could have never imagined raising a child who was biologically not my own, but a product of an affair.<P>But I've done all that. With joy in my heart (some pain too). But not with regret, anger, bitterness, malice, or hate.<P>I hope you aren't ever put to those kinds of tests. And I think the best way to avoid that it to learn these skills upfront, at the beginning of the marriage. I started learning them 10 years into mine---it's still been well worth it, and very successful, but I could have probably saved myself a whole lot of trauma by doing it earlier.<P>

I really appreciate the very wise advise. I liked what "K" has said about relationship skills, marriage changing and needing to change accordingly. It has helped allay some fears about infidelity and it seeming like it is out of your control.<P>However, as an analytical person in search of life truths, I never close my mind to alternative beliefs. I was impressed with what many of what you had to say so I wanted to get feedback on this school of thought. <P>The theory of infidelity - infidelity fits into the Darwin's theory of evolution and survival of the fittest. Humans as a species are not built to be completely monogomous, it is not advantagous to the betterment of our species to be that way. The purpose of procreation is to pass on our genes into the next generation. But not to pass on any old genes because it reduces the probability of survival of the fittest...but the best - the healthiest and fittest genes. If for example, a person married a spouse and that spouse died before they were able to conceive children, then the spouse who was completely and forever monogomous would lose the opportunity to pass on his/her genes - not good for the survival of his/her legacy. A mate that does not provide the best resources i.e. emotional, financial, physical is vulnerable to a cheating spouse. <P>There are studies which have found that infidelity more likely to occur around the 7th year of marriage/or partnership. The 7th year corresponds to a child's age - that at that age the child is more independent and able to be cared for by the family network (aunts, grandmothers) of hunter/gatherer society. Other studies have found that in every culture (primative or advanced) has infidelity despite the punishment (in some cultures by death)<P>Perhaps I didn't clearly or thoroughly explain this theory but I'm not an expert of this topic. But I was wondering if any of you know of this theory and what you think. It seems to provide a lot of answers to why people do what they do. It is actually not in disagreement with Harley's beliefs about meeting spousal needs. If you ask me to justify certain points I may not be able to because only know of this theory. I know I may get a lot of criticism for posting this and know people with a strong faith may vehemently disagree but all responses are welcomed. It's the part of me that needs to consider all sides.<P>Also in response to "truthnthruth" no - neither of our parents cheated on the other as far as I am aware. I'm from a more traditonal culture and marriage is considered a life long committment - divorce is strongly discourage. My fear of marriage is tied to my own values that divorce is the very last option if at all - so if your having problems you need to find a way to work it out to stick it out.

In my case there was nothing darwinian about it. I provided more for her than the OM ever could in all aspects. The only difference was that they were alone in an environment where there were no distractions such as kids. I also knew her bad as well as good side and the OM only saw the good. He also had a large amount of time to spend with her since his only job requirement was to sit around. The Darwin theory would have chosen me.<P>From many of the posts it looks like the estrangement took place at the 14 year or 20 year period. I do not recall seeing any at the seven year mark.

A simpleton by nature but the head is a bucket and when it gets toooo full, things, good or bad, just fall out.<P>Why has your significant other chosen you?<BR>you are a package, lots of good maybe a little bit bad but a whole package. How you care for him, how you look, what your values are and what you envision your future to be.<P>When any of these conditions change, you risk changes to your relationship. The committment for better or worse seems to apply less and less here. What seems to be more applicable is **the committment to keep the conditions intact** (or like K said, adjust when things go out of kilter) Remember, love IS conditional. You won't be loved it you don't demonstrate care, love, etc..... for your spouse.<P>It's not been fun but I'd marry him again in a heartbeat. A solid and great marriage is lots of fun and worth the tons of effort to stay connected.<P>-Tina

Mine occured at the 7 year mark. Began in 6 months into our 7th year, ended near the end of the that year.<P>Depending on how you look at it... We will have been together for 12 years this August. 8th anniversary was this past March.

Saga - I think we all ever marriage a little naïve…strike that…I think we are probably extremely naïve. I'm with K a few posts up in that I never, ever, ever, thought infidelity would enter MY marriage. Six months prior to my devastation I was the happiest guy on the planet. Everything in my marriage seemed perfect. My needs were met, her needs were met and this was after 19 years of marriage and four children! I wish my wife had told me something was wrong prior to her crossing the line. Sometimes we are not given that luxury. Even though my wife committed what I believe to be the most horrible sin against me that I can think of, it didn't change my love for her. Don't get me wrong, what she did hurts A LOT. The on going pain and suffering is nearly unbearable. However, I can not picture myself divorcing my wife. She may divorce me, but until then, I am going to do everything possible to recapture her love for me. Sometimes it is much harder to stay and rebuild than it is to leave. But, I am holding on to the belief that the fruits of my labors will be much sweeter than throwing in the towel. I think the Darwin angle is way off base. God created us to mate for life. My wife sinned, as we all do. <P>Trustntruth - You bring up a good point about our parents. My folks have been married 50 years. No cheating as far as I know. Wife's folks tossed in the towel many times. Her mother has been married five times, father three times. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited June 11, 1999).]

My H's parents were married about 47 years before his mom died - no cheating as far as I know. My H seemed appalled when a close friend of ours left his wife and 3 kids for an OW about 10 years ago. But it didn't prevent my H from leaving 6 kids and me for an OW.<P>TheStudent - you mentioned that if you are unhappy it is easier to leave if there is someone else waiting. But conversely, it seems to me that it is easier to feel unhappy with your marriage if there is someone else.

Dear Saskia,<P>As you know, I work with refugees - so probably can relate to other cultures so much more quickly than people who do not have that exposure.<P>I was filling out some immigration applications for a Sudanese refugee that I know. His father has 2 wives, and 26 children between the two wives.<P>He was applying for his father, mother and all of his sisters and brothers (from the other wife too.) It was hard to explain to him about American laws - one wife at a time. He did not want the other wife to come to America, so he was not going to fill out her application for her.<P>I explained that once his father arrived in Ameerica, we would not acknowledge his second wife, and father would not be able to apply for his second wife, ever - as she would never be considered married to him in America.<P>It's kind of funny - but that suited him just fine.....<P>It is interesting that you thought of all the kids as your brothers and sisters. <P>I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, and that threat of having another woman in your husband's life with laws permitting it is more of a threat to you.<P>I hope all is well with you.<P>Connie<BR>

Saga: my H cheated on me during our 7 year mark. Affair lasted 3 months. We are in marital recovery, but this traumatic experience really sucks. It's hard to deal & cope with, but we survive it. I wish I knew about Harley's books before I married. That way, I would be better prepared for how to care & nuture my marriage. I would have known how to deal w/the warning signs that my marriage was in trouble. It's great that you are asking these questions now. You will have a head-start in what marital/relationship commitment is about and how to keep it on the right track. Best of luck to you!

Hi Connie,<P>I just saw your reply when NoTrust brought this thread up on the list again. I am using office computer so my lunch time is usually midnight in America and I missed a lot of the thread here. I have to go back and forth many many times while new subjects -that I also would like to keep up- kept on coming.<P>Yes it's true about now knowing that the other kids are only my half brothers and sisters. My mother treated us just the same. Loved us just the same. Scolded us just the same. We shared the same size of scrambled egg every morning My father's oldest child is a year older than my mother but yet I don't realise that. My Mom looked so much older than him!!! As far as I remember, they've been living with us since the day I was born and usually they left either because they are married or because their college is in another city. I really don't know why and I never bother to ask now. Hence, if you can imagine how I felt when I knew that they came from different mother. I was a very inquisitive 15. Kept asking my Mother where did Daddy spend the other 4 nights in a week. The truth made me fell apart. I felt betrayed by my brothers and sisters but they told me that the time to let me know is my Mother's right. They also told me that it doesn't really matter because the truth is we loved each other and we grew up with each other. I onced ask them why didn't they stay with their mother. I felt really sorry for their Mother and very angry with my Mother in the same time. And they said that their Mother is a very cold person. They knew that she loves them (of course) but she is always in a constant bad mood. I don't know. I never know her. Maybe they are telling me the truth or maybe they just want to make me feel better. I don't know.<P>The point is, my family history is not something that I am proud about. Beside you guys in this forum, no other 'outsider' knew because we kept our lives separately. And definitely NO, this does not make me think easier in infidelity.<P>Saskia<P>------------------<BR>Time heals all wounds.<P>