Benefits of doubts and helping out are all good things 2 give and try 2 do.

2 a point. ...defined by how much FGG himself can accomodate while things improve (if they do), WITHOUT losing his own mind in the process.

Whether FGG's WW is or isn't BP doesn't address what he could possibly DO 2 help her by "being a better H" and stopping the DV, buying T-birds, or whatever, while she's not able 2 see the damage she's causing by hanging on2 this other relationship.

She can't see that her perception that FGG isn't a good H is a RESULT of her divided affections, not the cause of them.

This all could be "typical WS behavior", particularly when you factor in the amount of time she spends "with" the OM.

Good luck with your session with SH, FGG

-ol' 2long

Hi, Georgia.

You are being manipulated by a wayward spouse, bipolar disorder or not.

It is still all your fault that she has suffered so (according to her).

The simple fact is this. You can't fix her, and you very likely don't have the facilities it would take to accommodate her needs if you did take her back.

I think you should stop being led about by the nose. Your wife is broken for whatever reason, and you have NO REASONABLE ASSURANCE that she will ever return to being the woman you married, or ANY reasonable facsimile thereof.

God bless,
Gimble

She already answered the question regarding relationships with other men while married. If FGG didn't meet all her needs for any reason she would find an OM#3 or more ad finitum. Now she has admitted to having done this her whole marriage.

She very well could be a Love Addict.

She doesn't get it and she doesn't get that she doesn't get it...

Gimble you said:



Are you saying that, in your view, marital reconciliation should only occur when the WS returns to being their old self? This could never happen after infidelity..So, how could Recovery ever occur?

The old marital relationship can never exist again after infidelity, IMHO...

Again, I say, I don't think that Georgia is being selfish...

However, any of us can fall prey to being "SELFISH", we are only HUMAN and CAN MAKE SUCH MISTAKES....

I, personally, continue to see this situation as being TRAGIC...

Certainly Georgia cannot cure his WW by remaining married to her...

However, if she does have BPD and does agree to treatment for it, she definitely can get a lot better and can change her thinking immensely...I know this for a fact...

I think it's of value to Georgia to put this into consideration...

You are right MOJO, "IF, IF, IF...."....it's a question that in this case simply needs to be answered for informational purposes IF not to save the marriage....

To me, MARRIAGES ARE WORTH SAVING because GOD BROUGHT GEORGIA AND HIS WIFE TOGETHER..IT IS SATAN WHO WANTS TO TEAR THEM APART.. Who knows if this is not part of GOD'S PLAN for Georgia to take some pause in his actions...That's just my own POV...

Being a "LOVE ADDICT" is a common symptom of Bipolar Disorder...

Sorry....

I'm having a problem with the bias against mental disorders that I'm hearing...

SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS IS REAL AND BIOLOGICALLY-CAUSED AND OUT OF A PERSON'S CONTROL

I just realized where my bias is coming from here...

I had a Major Depressive Episode..Depression runs in my family and I still take medicine to prevent its reoccurrence..

I wish my H would have supported me rather than eventually having an A...

I certainly needed someone to talk to...

Gosh, this just hit me...

FGG doesn't need to stay married and put up with his wife perpetually having these 'friendships' with OM. She isn't even close to being there and it doesn't seem like she will be for the forseeable future.

She still thinks it is normal and good for her. She takes no responsibility. She hasn't said that I have bipolar disorder and I now know that my continued relationship with OM is wrong and unhealthy. Not even close.

Hi, Mimi.

Quote:
-----------------------------------------------------
Are you saying that, in your view, marital reconciliation should only occur when the WS returns to being their old self? This could never happen after infidelity..So, how could Recovery ever occur?
-----------------------------------------------------

Nope. I am saying that Georgia, based on the ongoing actions and conclusions drawn by his wayward wife (the evidence thereof having been stated and demonstrated by her), has no reason to believe, or action observed, that would even remotely suggest that his wife could ever be his 'normal' wife again.

Recovery can NOT occur when there is only one participant.

All the best,
Gimble

I called my attorneys office before lunch and asked if they had received anything from WW’s attorney. They received an offer to settle from her yesterday and we will discuss it tomorrow morning during my appointment (9:00). I told him about the BP II stuff to make him aware. He said he doesn’t think it will be an issue.

I know each of you have your own opinion. I am, I suppose, still a conflict avoider as I find myself wanting to please each of you.

This is from my heart, and not easy for me to say.

We married when we were 20 years old. I was immature, but I was still attentive to the needs of my new bride (at least the best I knew how to be). I had planted a flower bed at our rented trailer before we married and she moved in. I was so excited and anxious to try to please her. I loved her deeply and we had a wonderful time together. I never regretted marrying her, or wishing that I had “chosen” someone else.

I have truly tried over the years to be a good husband AND father. She told me a couple of years ago that I was the best father to our kids that she could have ever asked for.

However, she has consistently for the past 6 years let me know that I did not meet her needs and never have. I don’t want to sound vain, but I think there any many women who have “tolerated” a lot less attentive and loving husbands without the need to supplement the marriage with another man. She has told me repeatedly that I have “driven” her to do what she has done.

I think I would be willing to care for her if she was an invalid or had some tragic disease. Before I left home, she even told me that she knew I would care for her for the rest of her life.

However, I cannot (okay, maybe the right word is WILL NOT) continue in a marriage where IF (there’s that word again) I “perform” to some lofty standard, then I am rewarded with a faithful wife. However, when my performance falls (for ANY reason) I know that I will be replaced / supplemented by another man.

This view of entitlement is so strongly engrained in my wife that I do not believe it will end….ever. Hers is not a one night stand, or some infatuation with a smooth talking huckster. It is a romance borne of an attitude of entitlement in that I’m not good enough for her, I was the wrong guy to start with, and it was a mistake to have ever married me.

Is this mentality due to, in whole or in part, BP II? I don’t know, I may never know. This may be where Mimi’s “selfish” words fit, but I don’t want to live this way (sharing my wife with another man) no matter the root cause.

Therefore, I make the CHOICE to divorce my wife. It’s the choice that I have to live with. I will probably second guess myself the rest of my life. It pains me to think of her getting older and older, needing me more and more, and me not being there for her.

But it also pains me to think of ME getting older and older and needing her more and more, but she’s all wrapped up with some other guy who can meet her needs.

I am going to talk to SH at 2:30, but at this point I’m not even sure why. And…the medical college has called me back. The department head has arranged for one of the staff docs to call me tomorrow morning at 10:00 AM. They cannot arrange for anyone to call me any sooner than that.

That's a major realization Mimi...

So think it through...if during your Major depressive episode ( I had one when I was 14-15 that lasted about 2 months and it was far worse than dealing with infidelity...) if you had cheated, not once, but repeatedly and showed no remorse, and your H D'ed you, would you blame him?

It really doesn't matter any more on this thread about the influence of Major Depression or BPD...

It seems like Georgia has made up his mind on this...

It makes me sad...though..

Georgia knows this...

Georgia, I really don't think that you are being selfish...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi...you know (as a former CA'er) that I want you "buy-in".

You get all this stuff in an impersonal way by written medium and second hand concerning 2 people you've never met.

When I talk to my wife, either in person or by phone, I get to hear first hand how wonderful OM#2 IS, how wonderful OM#1 was, how the loss of the first OM#1 was all my fault....etc.

It really drives home the reality and he gravity of the situation.

Really, just out of curiosity..

When she does this, and you convey your ANGER about this, what is her response?

Well..I've kinda gotten over the anger phase. I express my "displeasure", but she says that I just don't communicate with her or understand her the way they have.

She has basically NEVER said "I don't like you because....", only that "you just don't understand me".

FGG:

Have yo conveyed 2 her the different perspective that YOU have on this?: That, in "fact", you appear 2 not communicate with her and you appear not 2 understand her the way the OMs do because she's pidgeon-holed you in2 this fantasy role in order 2 have her fantasy As without facing the consequences of doing so?

Burning your CA card, especially at this point in time, should involve such a conversation, I think.

But I also wish that we'd heard cerri's thoughts about "working through the pain" in the case of LTAs in particular, on DLee's thread last spring, but we never did.

Because like this:

"This view of entitlement is so strongly engrained in my wife that I do not believe it will end….ever. Hers is not a one night stand, or some infatuation with a smooth talking huckster. It is a romance borne of an attitude of entitlement in that I’m not good enough for her, I was the wrong guy to start with, and it was a mistake to have ever married me."

...I don't think such As, or entitlement mentality, is so amenable 2 the MB methods (Appy said something along these lines elsewhere yes2rday), so perhaps something else is in order. Harder, perhaps. Impossible (or a waste of time), perhaps.

But I'd like 2 know what SH thinks. It'll be enlightening 2 hear your update later on...

best,
-ol' 2long

The "why" is because it will help you in your own healing process. You will need to be able to look back and say "I made an intelligent, informed decision based on as many facts as I could possibly get"

Once the D has(if) gone through, this whole situation will not suddenly improve. She will still rely on you, as the one who cared for her so many years. She will call you when she has an urgent need. Also, there will be child related issues that you will both need to attnd to. Birth of Grand Babies, stuff like that.

the more information you have now, will give you better skills to relate to her later. and hopefully you will have a little more peace in your life, knowing that you have done the best you can.

My Ex relied on me a lot after the D. when he and OW broke up - he called me crying. When he started another A with another OW, and her H found out, he called me. I allowed it to happen because I truly believe that he is mentally ill, and I figured I was helping him out by listening to his troubles. I came to realize that I had become one of those other women he was consorting with while we were married. he didn't want a physical relationship with me any longer - just a sympathetic female who would listen to his problems, feel sorry for him, and tell him that the whole world was treating him badly. I stepped out of that role. he is REALLY mad now. when I quit listening to all his woes, and suggested that he needed to rely on the current woman in his life to listen to him instead, he really got angry. the few times I do hear from him now he always starts by reminding me that I "took his house away from him"(sold after the D) and he is very short and terse with me.

I can see this happening to you as well. She isn't going to magically build her own life after the D. She will still lean on you. I would suggest you get counseling on how to deal with it now, so you don't start a pattern that is hard to break later.

GA

I printed out your good morning post and read it on the way to the 2nd Grade Thanksgiving Feast at DS school.

I think you are making the right decision. She still thinks OM hung the moon.

my 2 cents.

tdr

FGG,

I have been reading along but have remained silent. However, at this point I feel compelled to offer my thoughts on this. They really don't differ too much from many here, oddly even from Mimi's as I don't see her point of view a really differing too much from the others, only her emotional investment...which is something I admire.

I think the data is very clear on the issue of your marriage. I think on a religious basis you have every right to divorce. I think on a logical basis you have every right to divorce. I think on a deep personal and emotional basis YOU must divorce. Finally, I believe that your analysis of this situation is right on. But, I also believe that if there is ever to be a chance for her to be your W and the W you need...you MUST divorce her.

Permit to elaborate a bit on these points. The religious basis does not need to be discussed as I suspect we are in full agreement. The logical basis really needs no discussion because you are looking at the data and the data tells you that bipolar or not, she is behaving the way she wants. Any methods to address said bipolar issues have either NOT be acted on OR they failed. Her lack of remorse, her lack of empathy suggest that your logic is flawless.

So let's move to my next point: I think on a deep personal and emotional basis YOU must divorce. I think most if not all humans are meant to operate in pairs of opposite sex couples. It provides emotional stability, physical and emotional support, and as we age these things become more and more important. You have NOT received any emotional support or even physical support from your W in years, probably 6 years. Further, she has not only not provided stability in your life, she has provided instability. It affects your job, your emotional well being, your faith, and even your relationship with your sons. It is a BAD effect that only through conscious effort and discipline have you been able to function. In short you cannot continue this way and survive as a fully functioning human being. THis is not about taking one for the team, there is no team. It is truely about your survival and yes, even your happiness with life. You don't need her for either, but her presence in your life is actually hendering your ability to function. She needs to go.



My last statements are really along Mimi's thinking. I hate to see a marriage break up. This is especially true in the case of an illness that might possibly be treated. However, she appears unwilling to address her issues. She feels entitled to jetison your marriage, and destroy another woman's marriage as well. She will NOT address her issues until she has to; that is a proven, clear, FACT. It seems to me that ONLY something catestrophic could encourage her to address her issues. Divorce and the consequences of it might do that. If she were to address her issues. If she had a desire to once again be your W and fully participate in your life and support you as you want to support her, THEN you two could remarry. Frankly that is the only scenario that this humble observer feels has a chance. I have speculated with you for a long time now that your W had issues beyond wanting another man. IF the bipolar diagnosis is correct we now know she does. But, knowing that and doing something about that are two different things. You cannot force her to do what she does NOT want to do. So you must leave the marriage, but it is possible that the reality of her being alone other than the huge hours she spends talking to OM might encourage her to seek help.

So while Mimi is sad to see your marriage fail and wants it to succeed especially in light of the bipolar issue, I would like to see the same thing but believe that ONLY something huge in her life will force her to face her issues and that is ending this marriage. Oddly I am arguing that ending the marriage may be the way to regain the marriage you want. Hence my last comments in the opening of this post.

I hope SH has good advice for you. I hope that things work out as they should. And I still hope that eventually you will end up happily married to the woman you clearly still have a great deal of love for. BUT, this can only happen if she has or remembers that she loves you as well.

God Bless,

JL

I agree. There doesn't seem to be much change in her position.

Okay, the SH update.

Steve does not think it likely that she is bipolar. He sees some of the symptoms but not enough for him to think that she is bipolar. He also asked about how she was diagnosed, so I was able to fill him in on that.

And, even if she is he says that her belief system has to at least support what is right and wrong, and he doesn’t see that in her. In other words, if the BP II diagnoses was correct and altered her belief system, then there has to be a FOUNDATION of a correct belief system underlying the BP treatment for her to return to. In her case, he is convinced that her belief system is totally broken.

He articulated that she continued to be extremely “self-centered” (his words). He says that she will do and believe whatever is necessary to continue her role as center of the universe, and anyone that disagrees with her is likely to just be ran over.

He likened her lack of concern for the pain of her husband to physical abuse. He said that as long as she stays in this condition she is “dangerous” (his words) for me to be around.

He said that the real deal breaker for the marriage is her lack of ability to absolutely promise that she will remain faithful to me and me only for the rest of her life, period. No stings attached. He said her position is like an abusive husband telling his wife that he wouldn’t hit her as long as she didn’t make him mad. Not a very good recipe for a successful marriage.

In summary, he didn’t see any change that indicated I needed to change my course of action. Also, he places absolutely no credence in the BP II diagnoses, even if true, being the magic bullet that will bring her back.

He still holds to the basic concept that her belief system must be repaired to allow her to recognize, and care about, all the damage she is doing to everyone around her.

Georgia