2,
I guess that's the difference between my approach and yours. I'm ready to "forget what lies behind and strain toward what lies ahead". Our MC is big on starting with today and building for tomorrow. We'll learn from the past as far as how things got to where they did, but we're not going back to address details of her A or past events.

I sure hope there's a day soon when you can stop looking at the past with a magnifying glass. I believe it only keeps us stuck in the muck of the *uck. (Rhymes, huh?)

We are done with details. Haven't discussed them in months. But my H does need to UNDERSTAND how he allowed this to happen. That is where the past has become important in our counseling sessions. I was a history major and you know what they say about history "...it is bound to repeat itself if we don't learn from it."

Yes, look forward, but we can't ignore what happened, like when my husband says "I'm not an adulter." and I say "Yes you are!" Recovering alcoholics are alcoholics. The reason they are recovered is because of the safeguards they put up. My h will always be an adulterer because he engaged in adultry. But he doesn't have to live it ever again. It is just a label...not a lifestyle if you don't make it one.

Anyway, don't be afraid to look at the past and discover where this all came from. Sometimes I think you are just afraid to go to that very sad and dark place. I'm not talking about details, I'm talking about HISTORY, the just of what happened and WHY. Understandable, but maybe necessary. Don't be afraid. Out of the darkness comes the light.
2

Are you meaning to say discussing with your MC about a phone call at your H's company BD party is "not going back to the details?" Or holding on to negative views of his SUV? It's not a matter of me being "afraid" to go back, it's a matter of being afraid if I continue to dwell, and call my W a forever adulterer, and rub her nose in it, we will never get over this. I disagree with you 2 about your H being a forever adulterer. The beauty of God's grace is that we can shed our former vile ways for a new and clean self through the shed blood of Jesus. Not to offer that same grace by branding a stinkin title on your H's forhead not only is controlling but in my opinion jeopardizes God's grace offered to you. Is your sin any less "in God's eyes" than your H's? Are you a saint in every way? Are you not in need daily of God saying you are forgiven...righteous in His eyes as if you never sinned? Please don't project your hurt upon your H in the form of forever titles. He needs your loving arms not your good memory and judgmentalism.

Hey Rocked, that IS what I said. I said it is a label, not a way of life. I agree with you, perhaps the way I said it didn't come across that way.

Her showing up at his party on Friday and him not handling it differently is dwelling?! It just happened! Again, I don't expect you to understand my situation, you are not in it. But I can assure you if your W had contact with the OM and didn't handle it in an agreed upon manner, you'd be pissed too. I don't think you'd be saying to yourself "OH, I'm not going to dwell on the past." You'd be saying "we need to make sure this doesn't happen again"...the future...what you are talking about.

Anyway, gone for the rest of the day!
Bye
2

Okay you two...
I think I can break this down a bit (hopefully I am understanding what you both are trying to say)...

2, if you told your H that you were hurt by his not calling you at the time of the surprise bday party when the OW showed up and he got the point, apologized, talked with you about a safegard for the next time, then why bring this up with your MC? It would sound like you were trying to have the MC and you telling him how to behave, instead of him learning this with you on his own (you won't be in counseling forever).

I don't think 2 is "dwelling" on the issue, but sometimes 2, if what you tell us, is what you are actually saying to your H, then your words have become "arrows".

I wouldn't call your H an "adulterer", perhaps a "recovering adulterer" would be more appropriate, better yet, no words like that at any of your conversations. I think Rocked meant those are "beating your H down" words.

I understand too, history is there to teach us, hopefully, a lesson or two of not what to do in the future. But's there's another saying, "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history." George Bernard Shaw
In other words, once again, we can be as prepared as ever, but we can't control anything but ourselves.

Love,
holiday

OK..here comes True to stir up the pot.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

First, Rocked, if your MC does not deal with the affair and, yes, some of the important details...then he is not a very goood MC, and I would look into getting a new one as soon as possible. To just say we are going to look ahead at the future is very delusional. I am serious here. You are in marriage counseling to not only deal with aspects of your marriage but to deal with the affair and help you heal. There are things in the affair that will help you have a better marriage...I have found several things that the OW did that I never really thought about and those things happen to meet some of my H's biggest emotional needs. Like it or not, what our spouses saw in the OP can really shed light onto your own marriage. This does not mean that you are dwelling in the past..you are searching for answers to help your future.

There is another saying, Holiday...those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it. That is the one that I will look at. It does not mean that I dwell..but that I recognize that it happened, and I have studied it to make sure it will not happen again.

Also, 2's analogy of the always an alcoholic/adulterer is quite accurate...so is Holiday's term...recovering adulterer. If you have read any of Dr. Harley's site..you will see that he compares the affair to an addiction...and my H confirms that it really does feel like that. You are out of control..and feed off the rush. And if you ask an alcoholic in recovery, they will admit to you that they will always be an alcoholic...they just need to find away to resisit temptation. So, 2's description is very accurate. I know you do not want the label...but you cannot just say oh well, she is done with her affair, God has forgiven her, so I will forget that she had an affair. God is God and we are human. We, unfortuantely, have to deal with life on Earth and that includes our addictions, mistakes, and flaws. We can forgive them....and I know you will say that we should forget as well, as God does...but as humans I do not think that is possible(although good in theory). Correct me if I am wrong...but it hit home to me the other day when I was listening to that Steven Curtis Chapman song about how "God is God and I am only man(woman). I can only see a part of the picture he's painting"....I do not know what God knows, or can I forgive like God(although I try as best I can).

I also agree that 2 was not dwelling in the past when the OW came to the party. Dwelling is what I do about the stupid letter that my H wrote to the OW. It is thinking of all those times he screwed her...not asking him to stick to a plan that they had already arranged. That is saying, hey, you broke my trust again...and I am hurt.

Rocked, I hope you do not say, oh these woman are just being stupid and petty...we are really trying to help! I am just so afraid for you. I am so happy that you had a good counseling session...but that one session IS just the beginning..it will be hard, and if your MC is good, you will talk about the affair...there will still be good days and bad days. I am so afraid that you will get hit with another reality dose and will be crushed.

Anyway, like I said..I have probably just stirred up the pot...but we are here to share ideas, right? I hope that mine are taken as just my own opinion.

Take care.

True

hey True...always there to defend me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, I don't know about this. I find we spend a lot of our time on this board arguing. I'm not really sure if this is a good idea. It was great to just type in the other day that I was sad while journaling in my scrapbook and have everyone say "sorry, we love you". That felt great!

Maybe we shouldn't give opinions anymore. I think it is obvious that we all have different views of the A. We all take different levels of responsiblity (or none at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and we view recovery and how we NOW relate to our spouses very differently.

Some things cannot come across well in type. Like the conversation I had about my h always being an adulter...the context of the conversation would probably have been helpful..but we can't get into all that here. I didn't call him that out of anger, it was a conversation about owning what you have done "you have to know where you come from to know where you are going."

I don't want to see the people who have been instrumental in helping me in my recovery and grief, end up angry with each other over differences of opinion. That would be very sad. I really consider you all friends and hope you will remain here. I'm starting to fear this will end bad. As it is Rocked almost bailed out on us already!

So I'd like to suggest that we are SUPPORT only here unless otherwise asked for. We are in counseling and have our pastors and/or close friends to give advice. Let's just be here to support each other and lift each other up...not argue over differences of opinion.

I know that I am VERY guilty of this, but am prepared to stop because I think it will be best. That is my suggestion because I don't want this to end bad. Let me know what you guys think.

Love ya and goodnight!
2

Crap! I just spent lots of time typing a long response to the last 2 posts only for it to be deleted when I hit a wrong key. Dang! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Not sure I want to go thru that again.

Whatever changes you want to make to our group's discussions is cool.

I thank you all for caring for me. Don't worry about me, I am fine.

Rocked...that happens to me a lot. Plus my littlest daughter is always hitting the keys as I type. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, maybe it is just the arguer in me, but I LIKE the fact that we can get on here and support each other AND share our opinions of so many topics. I think of you guys as friends and I would never tell a freind not to share opinions. I love the argument just for arguments sake..that is true, but I also like to hear what you all are thinking and where you stand.

I am sorry if I come across angry..usually I am not(unless I feel personally insulted), but I just do not have the finess of arguing without getting too heated(another reason I chose to stay with flags instead of debate team) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I have grown in my beliefs and my marriage b/c of all the "arguments" we have had. I have searched deep to see whatI really believe...it has been fun.

Plus, I truly feel like we ARE trying to help each other even when we are arguing. We all want each other to be happy and are expressing how WE find that happiness. I am so glad for the ideas that I have gotten here...even if I argue about them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I guess it is just like me to argue about arguing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> If you do not want opinions...I don't think I can stay..I am too opinionated, and I would break our promise within the first post.

Thoughts????


True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

True,
Your comments make sense (not bad for a former flag girl with black lips). ha. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Our differing opinions can sharpen each other and thus serve as support. Friends don't always have to agree. In fact it was your strong admonishment to me that opened my eyes and kept me from leaving this group. (I hate it when you're right!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

However, there is a fine line we should be careful not to cross that wanders more into the 'put-down' and 'value-posturing' categories. If we all can agree to be kind and respectful even when laying our opinions or personal junk on the table I think we'll be okay.

When we all finally meet face to face we might get in an all out brawl, but until then I say let's be honest, respectful and supportive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nuf said. Other opinions?

BTW True, since you mentioned one of them...how are your girls doing?

Good morning guys!

Too early for me to be up! Anyway, I was on the debate team! And as I mentioned earlier, I have been very guilty of posting my opinion. I too love a good argument (and my H hates to argue) so I've done alot of venting here. I am just afraid of feelings getting hurt. But if you guys think we are OK...then OK.

I'll let you know what the MC says about last friday's incident.

My H returned home last night under very little fanfare. I was dissapointed that he didn't seem happier to see us. He was probably thinking the same about me. He said he was tired. I let the kids stay up late to see him come home. After we got them to bed he said he was going to take a bath and wanted me to come with him (tight fit..but we do it!) So I joined him even though I really wanted to do my weight training, but because I hadn't seen him in 4 days...agreed. I was glad I did because we spent an hour talking and catching up (so tired this morning though). We were too tired for s e x, but feel asleep cuddling. I'm happy he's home.

He mentioned LOTS of travel for June. It makes me uncomfortable. This last trip because of her showing up at his party, I called her everyday at the office to make sure she was there (block my number of course!). She was there. I had moved passed this, until this incident. I hope I don't feel like I'll need to check up while he's gone in June. I really hate doing it!

Anyway, off to make pancakes for breakfast...welcome him home with a nice breakfast.

Have a great day!

Rocked, thanks for asking about my girls. They are fine. My oldest just finished up school..my middle is as onery as always, and my poor little baby fell down the front stairs..is bruised but good now.

I am glad that I can be right sometimes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I promise to be nice...but I am passionate, so please forgive me if I forget sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And I did not have black lip...bright red...just black clothes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2, Glad to hear you had some "together" time with your H. 4 days apart, an hour in the bath together and no hubba-hubba? You all musta been tired!!!! (And if you get any more graphic we'll have to take our posts off MB). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

True, I try to let you be right once in a while to keep you happy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now Holiday...she's always right...cuz she's so much OLDER than the rest of us. (Richer too as she's the Ebay Queen!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Good morning!!!

Rocked, you're killing me with kindnes here!! ha.



I think I'm with True here. I'm not really an "arguer" as I have had conflict issues my whole life and with telling my H how I feel. Being here with you guys has helped me alot in expressing myself and I don't type to ever cause hurt feelings...it's just my opinion and that's it. I love you guys.

So whatever I write, try not to look at it as "personal" and know that I only care for you in my heart and wish to help in any sitch. I have always felt here that you all have felt the same way. I would miss your points and perspective if we had to be "nice" everytime we talked, I don't think it would accomplish anything.

I also understand what 2 is saying...we sometimes seem to pick on one of us at a time and it feels like we;re ganging up on someone, but I also think when three of us agree about something the forth should possibly take heed.

Well, off to the showers. Tough workout this morning. My trainer must think I am in my 20's today on the treadmill. Had my heartrate up to "stroke" speed, ha!

holiday

Oh and Rocked, about always being right...I have learned too many rights make a left (left behind)...(My Mommy taught me that, which probably contributes to my "conflict" isssues <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)

And OLDER yes, richer no...

Anybody ever notice how people tend to lose their sense of humor around the age of 47?

OK...I am here for a breather...and it actually is not about my H's A...my kids just broke a turn of the century mirror that I had. I am devestated. I know it is just a material object, but it is sad that this thing has survived all these years and now my kids break it with no thought. I am livid! That is why I am breathing and venting here, so I do not scream at my kids!!!

AAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok...feel a little better after that cyber yell...but I am still sad. I guess it is a good sign that I can still get upset at other things.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.


True

AAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm yelling with ya True. CCCCCRRRRRAAAAPPPPP!!!!

Sorry about the mirror. As a parent of 3 I know how frustrating that can be. Let's at least be thankful that:

A) None of your kids was injured
B) That there's probably an antique store in your area
C) That your flags from H.S. weren't ripped
D) That your computer cable wasn't damaged cutting off contact to your cyber friends
E) That your H's former fling's neck wasn't in the way (Or, Hmmm?)

Yes, I am thankful none of the kids are hurt... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Antique stores??? Here???? HA HA HA

My stupid computer cable...you forgot...dial up.......bleh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I could only wish for my H's former fling to be in the way of glass flying!!! Dang! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oh you both are cracking me up!!

True, I am so sorry. I remember the days when my kids would want to "play" with my antique things. Wow, how time flies...now I'm an antique! Check with you local antique store's on restoration. Somethings just happen sometimes. I'm sure your children feel bad they hurt Mom's feelings after breaking it.

Rocked, I was trying to be a bit funny myself in my last post to you. My Mom really told me that. She didn't want me to be sassy and think I was always right. With you...well, you bring out my "sassy", hee hee.