Thanks you guys. I knew that you would understand what I was feeling.

So far this morning I have tried to be nice...he knows that I am upset, but I think he thinks I am crazy for having triggers when he was with my brother downstairs. I probably am, but he talked to the OW with me just upstairs..heck, he even called her at Thanksgiving with a house full of people just b/c she missed him(at about 2am)...so I think that is why I am triggering.

I guess this is the downward sequence on the rollercoaster. I hope we go back up soon.

True

We had rough day. He continues to insist that his actions were innocent. I continue to stress that if you don't want to do battle, don't go to the battlefield. It got ugly and heated and then we just quit. Save it for MC Tues. Not worried, because I know she'll agree with me.

Here is a question. What kind of marriages did your spouse observe growing up? My H's parents were never married, so I keep hearing "he's learning. He doesn't know what to do in marriage?" BS! He knew he wasn't supposed to cheat. Sometimes I kick myself for marrying him because he did not have a great home life as a role model. I figured it wasn't that hard to figure out. My mother (who LOVES my H now) did always comment that his "broken home" may be an issue later. Boy was she right.
Good night!
2

2,

I am sorry to hear that you had a rough day. Those ugly moments are tough on all of us. I am glad that you decided to curb the argument until counseling though...sometimes, it does take an outside source to get our points across.

Your question...both my spouse and I were raised in stable family environments with both parents who have now both been married for 36 years. My H's parents have very traditional roles(man does all the work and with the woman being very submissive)...yet, she says if she ever found out about him having an affair she would leave and take him for all he's got. She even told me that if she was me, she would leave my H!! My H always thought his dad may have had an affair though, so who knows..maybe somewhere deep inside he thought that men were just supposed to do that.

Well, I am still having a really tough time. ANOTHER rough moment today when I saw my older bro. and his wife's 10th anniversary card....how could the couple my parents thought would never make it be happier than the couple who were such a perfect match?? How could they make it ten years with both people being happy and in love, and we didn't?? I guess, in a sense, my H and I have been together 17 years and they really have been togther only about 10.5(they got married about 8 months after meeting!!!!), but still...we were supposed to be happy and love each other forever. Now, I see a tainted marriage.

Anyway, Hope you all have a Happy 4th of July.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry here 2, too. Yes, some things are best held for the MC. Remember though, to go in with an open mind and not look for the MC to take a side or eventually your H won't go anymore.

My parents just had their 46th wedding anniversary. I don't feel my parents are close to me and my siblings, nor their grandchildren. They march to a different beat. I think my Dad had "girlfriend's", plus my Mom had a girlfriend who moved in with my parents and lived with them (very strange) for over 10 years. She's now in a nursing home and my parent's treat her like their daughter or something.

My H's parents were married for over 50 years when my MIL past away. They "appeared" on the outside to have a great marriage, but they really never talked to each other in a nice way and my MIL ran the show. I think my FIL had had a fling and that lady (per my MIL's instruction) came to their home for the last 5 years of my in laws lives to take care of them (really strange too).

True as far as your older brother and his wife, we on the outside don't really know what's going on. You chose to tell your family about the A, perhaps your bro and his wife keep their business a secret. What I am saying as I think I have said in the past...is that what may "appear" to be a "perfect" anything (marriage) may be far from it.

I hope you all have a safe 4th

holiday

Frustrated today because I called one of our pastor friends who helped us in the beginning to discuss with him what happened. He told me not him or anyone else will make my H make the right decisions. I know that. But I thought he should have been willing to point him in the right direction. He could do what he wanted after that. But he told me to pray and save it for counseling. I was hoping that he, being someone my H looked up to, would have discussed the poor decision he made this past week. Nothing. He even agreed with me.

We are still really cold with each other. Don't have much to say until he is willing to admit he was wrong. I really don't.

Thanks for the info on the family life. As I mentioned, my H grew up with no father or marriage to look too. I grew up with a great dad who was a horrible husband. I guess I thought with my H having a clean slate, we could make our marriage everything he ever dreamed about. We were for a while. Now I feel like I'm living with a stranger.

Last night we went out with some friends to dinner. All of a sudden in the middle of dinner it hit me. I feel like I'm living with a rebound. You know when couples break up and one goes off and immediately gets married and you think to yourself "rebound"? That is how I feel. Like the man I married is gone and I'm just settling for this rebound guy. I don't really like him...but he'll work. That is totally how I feel. I cried all morning at church wondering if I will ever feel happy again.

2

[color:"blue"] 2,
I hate to say it...but I feel like that too sometimes. I want the man I married...not this "tainted" man I have now. I would have never married a man knowing he cheated on his first wife...so, why do I stay married to this man now?? I have cried the same tears over the past few weeks. Goes back to that old question...why does he get to have the things that he has wanted out of life, and I end up getting a raw deal. I know I have my beautiful children to thank him for...he gave me 10 womderful years, too...but somehow that all seems in the too distant past when I am in these moods. Go ahead, Holiday, hit me with a 2x4...I am ready! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I think I am finally beginning to see why you, Rocked & Holiday, really do your thinking in the present or future...b/c when I think of the past, it hurts WAY too much. Even the present hurts a little when our spouses make those wrong decisions(like your bar thing 2, and my H's distance that I am feeling).

Sometimes, I even wonder if my H would be happier without ME around. I wonder if I should just let him go so that he can find the perfect woman for him...b/c to me, he has proven that I must not be it. Do you ever wonder if soulmates actually aren't meant to be together??? I have always thought my H was meant to be with me...he used to love me sooo much...I always thought I was the luckiest woman in the world(here was this very cute man who was with ME!)...how could he turn into the man he became??? How can one person change so much??? He has been happy with how he changed( he looks back and thinks he is a dork for viewing things so "morally", he claims those things aren't really moral, they are just religious dogma)...and now I am asking him to go back to the old H??? Is that fair? Why should he live a false reality just b/c I have told him to? Wouldn't he be happier with a woman who wanted him just the way he is?? I know I want a man who loves me for my wits, attitude, and even my rolls of fat if need be.

Can you tell it has been a rough couple of weeks??? I am really not quite as depressed as I sound here...just venting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Holiday, I understand my bro and his wife are not perfect...I do know they have their problems. It is just sad to see people so happy and seemingly in love with each other when I am having such a tough time, ya know?

Well, I better get going...we are going to see fireworks tonight too...YAY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Keep those thoughts and actions positive. I will be thinking about you all.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[/color]

OMG!!! He did it again. I went to bed at mignight again...AND he came to bed at 3am! I even said to him, "Just don't come to bed at 3 am, and I will be happy." and I joked and said, "or 2:59"...that is when he came to bed( he even said I did not come to bed at 3am......AAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH). I am physically ill over this. Not b/c of a stupid bedtime, but b/c of his blantant disrespect of my feelings and the hurt it caused last time. Yes, it is stupid to get upset over this, but it is a trigger for me!!!

Maybe this is the turning point. I have felt this distance from him...he is not touching me as much anymore, he has reverted back to his old biting joking ways, and now this. I cannot take much more. I am losing it. If he cannot even do these little things for me, how can I ever expect him to do the major ones.

I am so lost and feeling hopeless tonight. So much for a happy 4th.

True

I wasn't going to post today, but since H is still at work this am I have some time...

Okay...both of you!!! Listen up. Granted we are conditioned to the worst, right???? So let's think of all this right now as just being that. Get past the "he's doing this all over again", "he's not doing what I tell him to do". Yes he's behaving differently and distantly because we are. ACTION-REACTION. Sorry, but our guys are probably at the breaking point of our frustration. We deserve their respect yes, but our tone needs to change (H told me this the other day).

Step outside your moods today. Either make your marriage work or get out of it. Like I told 2 the other day...what are you going to take in your marriage. If all this is something that is wiping out all the other work they have done move on. Don't waste your energy with the worries.

Have you two done anymore about yourselves? I mean the excercise and eating right plans? Get to it! You're spending way too much time in your mind...work on your physical aspects. Go for a walk and breathe.

And did either of you read the book the "The Monogamy Myth"??? I think 2 didn't like it, but I really think you should give it a shot. It has a lot of insight.

If you think all this going on right now means they are looking for affairs then what's going on in your homes? Stop the cycle.


Okay, today be warm to you H's. Put all else aside and be WARM. Don't make "the face", don't have "the tone". And smile. Watch the change!

I love you guys, sorry to be harse.

Enjoy your family day today, I'm going to.

Oh and before I forget...I need to add my thots about "tainted man", "not the man I married"....DUH!!!

Let's hope your H's are better men and you are building a better marriage together. I wouldn't want that old person before the affair to save my life...he was planning on having an affair! And my marriage was not what I thought it really was so who would want that either!

love,
holiday

[color:"purple"] Holiday,

Although I agree with most of your post, I cannot believe that your H told you that your tone needs to change. That is quite bold for a man who cheated on you to say. Granted, I AGREE that we do need to have positive tones, but if MY H said that...I would probably smack him. I will change my tone when I feel like I can. I try every day to make my tone as positive as possible(and you sound like you do this too). I do not think our spouses should ask us to change anything about how we are reacting to their stupidity. Change some of the ways that may have led up to the affair, yes, but not how we deal with it. They are in no position to ask that.

AS for my 4am post, I am much better this morning. My H actually came downstairs and yelled at me for leaving the bed last night and not coming back. We talked about it...he didn't understand why I was so upset and then made some valid points...I explained my thoughts and hopefully he sees why it hurt me. He has said that he is trying to be more attentive lately, and that I am just not appreciating it. I think that is where the love languages come in again. We need to speak the other's language...and I guess he is not speaking mine.

See, I can be calm and listen and let me make his point..it just takes some time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Have a great day and thanks for your thoughts...I knew you would set me straight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[/color]

Sorry Holiday, not feeling it. Won't be happening in my house today. We are going on a bike ride, grilling dinner and checking out fireworks...going through the motions of a happy family. Inside, I can't stand him. Still haven't looked him in the eye more than a total of 2 minutes this weekend.

There is no doubt that if it wasn't for my kids I'd leave. I'm just not happy with him. I'm settling. He has made lots of positive changes, but like True said, when they blantantly do something they know upsets you, I feel like serving divorce papers. So just like his A that has wrecked so much havoc on our lives, I hope his bar hoping til 2am was worth coming home to a wife that hasn't looked at him in days.

The pastor I talked to yesterday who didn't think he should talk to my H said "If I was H, I'd be doing EVERYTHING I could to stay out of dangerous situations." DUH! THat is the part I don't get! It is just such poor judgement and that is what led to the A. So of course it is a trigger for me...just like True. He should stay out of dangerous situations too and not be up so late by himself where he gets lonely and bored.

Holiday, here is the thing that I don't get about your advice. These behaviors are triggers. You told me to decide what I'm going to put up with. I'm not putting up with bar hoping till 2am. So if I'm suddenly nice without him admitting he was wrong or at least saying he understands my point, then won't he think "She got over it, I can do it again?" Then when he does, what...file for divorce?

I will not be loving and sweet again until this issue is resolved. I don't feel it and he doesn't deserve it until we come to an understanding of some sort. When he did things in the past (during his A) and I didn't like it, that is what I did. Got over it after a day. Let is slide. Became more accepting of certain behaviors I didn't like in order to be supportive. I'm not doing that ever again!

So here we are! Him being unwilling to give up the admiration of his peers, to gain the admiration of his wife. That is EXACTLY how it looks to me. Just like in the A, he can choose whichever is more important to him. This time, I won't be willing to work on it again. So I hope he knows what he really wants.

Monogomy Myth, garbage! I thought the book was full of excuses and justifications. With her being a Christian woman, I was very disappointed that she never discussed the fact that monogomy is how God ordered it. Plain and simple. People fall into sin. Call it what it is instead of trying to say that monogamy is a myth that can't be obtained unless X,Y and Z are in place and maybe not even then. She and her husband had numerous affairs on each other. I'll take my advice from somewhere else!

Happy 4th!
2

And by the way Holiday, I am happy to report that I have been consistent in my working out and it shows. I'm down 1 to 2 sizes (depending on the maker) and feeling great! My H is always telling me how good I look.

I do this for me, not at all for him. I found after D day that working out helped to relieve the stress I felt...it still works as I am still stressed.

Do I look like a model? NO! But I look better than I have in years. It helps me to get my confidence back since he stripped it all with his infidelity. I think it also has really made him realize 1) I am beautiful and 2) I can get another man if I want to. I can leave and find someone, or have a sleezy A like he did. I am choosing NOT to, not that I can't. I think he gets that.

FYI.
2

In answer to this question, yes. You've already gave him the ultimatum so stick to it.

You can not control anything he does and that will be a big issue for you the rest of your marriage. No matter how many religious male retreats, no matter how many MC sessions your H has had or has, I don't feel you will ever feel they will be enough.

Perhaps your H felt with all this counseling and bible study, he was feeling he was under control to handle himself with his coworkers for a work function at a bar.

2, I read your post to my H and he wanted to say: "Please, please, PLEASE, put the man out of HIS misery and divorce him." He feels that nothing your H does will ever bring peace and trust to your heart.

I'm sure my H did feel strong. I, however did not feel he was strong. So again, what? Sit back and let him put himself into the situations that landed him there in the first place? Nope! Ain't gonna do it.

We had a nice day bike riding, but just like with OW showed up to his b-day party we let it go for a few days and had ROUGH MC few days later. That will probably happen tomorrow.

I'm glad your H is lucky to have a woman who will continue to be nice even when he messes up. Mines not so lucky. Hanging out at a bar isn't divorcable behavior at this point in the marriage, but if he keeps it up, it will be and perhaps that is his goal, so I can put him out of his misery as your H stated. Right now, he has to mind his P's and Q's...he has to if he wants this marriage to work. I can't control him, BUT I can control what I will accept. And this isn't one of them. So now the ball is in his court.

Unfortunately as a result of his adultry, I have a hard time finding good in a lot of what he does. He created this enviroment, not me. So he HAS to, if he wants to prove to me his devotion to this marriage, he HAS to behave in acceptable behaviors TO ME. I don't care if HE thought he could handle the bar scene at this stage in the game, I do not. And right now he needs to do the best he can to behave correctly. Going to a bar AFTER I made it clear that I didn't think it was appropriate was disrespectful and WRONG. If HE doesn't get that...we are headed for divorce. I will not stand for that kind of behavior again.

2

Ok ladies....to your corners:)

First, 2, in response to your posts earlier. I have to say that biologically speaking human beings really are not meant to be monogomous. Most animals are not. Yes, we have a higher thought process which allows us to try and be with one person forever...but we have biology to overcome. Even in the Old Testament men had many wives. This is not an excuse...but it is a fact of nature that we gave to deal with this.

Holiday,
I think once upon a time you yelled at me when I brought my H into the argument. I think you said something about ganging up on you or something like that. I have to say that I do not like your H very much after the things you have told us he has said today. That comment you made to 2 sounded..well, I cannot even say anything half way nice about that comment. If I had been there when he said it..I would have punched him!
She should do her H a favor, huh? Like he did her favors when he cheated on her for almost a year..or heck, like the favor your H gave you when he cheated on you twice???? Boy, he's convinced me...he seems to know what he is talking about.
He is lucky to have you as a wife...b/c I think most women would have thrown his *ss out by now. He obviously has NO clue what a BS goes through...this is what I have meant those times when I thought you were being too easy on him. He thinks that 2 should be happy that her H is still doing things that are inappropriate???? NO WAY!!!! Her H WAS DOING SOMETHING THAT MADE HER UNCOMFORTABLE-----ENOUGH SAID!!! He needs to stand by HER and not what he thinks he can handle or what he thinks is right...I can't believe that you would not be upset if your H was acting in a way similar to what he was like during the A. It DOESN'T matter how many bible studies he does or whatever you said...If it makes her feel bad...he should not engage in that activity...period.

I hope that your H KNOWS what a jewel he has in you...b/c I do not think he would get away with those types of comments in my house...or many other women's houses. And since you ARE reading posts to him...I hope you tell him that I think he is **mn lucky he still has you.

True

Ok..2...you posted while I was typing. Once again, you say things much softer than me. I am glad you can hold your temper...I unfortunately cannot.

I should take some lessons from you and Holiday, I guess.

True

True, I love you!
2

Glad to see I finally got your attention!!!

This is what I mean by "ultimatums"! If you ain't gonna follow through, don't give them.

If your H's can't behave the way YOU want them to, then throw them to the curb. My H is choosing to not do the things I have a problem with. But if he hadn't, yes, I would be feeling the way you both do.

True, it wasn't that I felt "ganged up" upon, it was more like I felt that you needed your H to say you were right.

There is no "right" in any of this. I just feel if you continue to feel that you need to control your H's every action (granted they should be honest in what they are doing, which they are) you won't be able to stay married.

My comment about "tones" were that my H had asked me nicely to just use a different approach at times when I get heated (I think that's fair). Just because a person makes a bad choice doesn't mean they do hard time for the rest of their lives, or does it? And I am well aware in my sitch I have been able to work through this twice.

Yes, my H has a jewel and his is **mn lucky to have me and he knows it, but like I said before, I will stay so long as "I feel good" in this relationship. All is not forgotten in my home. I don't accept poor treatment. And if and when this happens, I won't give any "treatment", I will just ask him to leave our home.

My comment about "tones" were that he asked me nicely to just use a different approach at times when I get heated (I think that's fair). I told him his words were harse too, but he felt by reading 2's posts she was too far above her H to ever be equal with him again, even with all his hard work to recover in his marriage.

My frustration is why I get so harse on the two of you. If you continue to talk the talk, they will do the walk and seriously, I don't think either of you want that to happen.

Remember, you chose to stay in your marriages. They chose to stay married to you. They were wrong in their actions, definitely. They are doing penance. Some backsliding is expected in working on our marriages.

Holiday, I don't fully understand what you are trying to say then. You say "This is what I mean by "ultimatums"! If you ain't gonna follow through, don't give them." I agree. What part of my story made you think I wasn't going to follow through? But then you say "Some backsliding is expected in working on our marriages." But then where do you draw the line between what you will accept in backsliding and what you won't? I'm not sure I really understand what your point is at all.

You also noted your H thought "2's posts she was too far above her H to ever be equal with him again, even with all his hard work to recover in his marriage." But what hard work are you speaking of? His bible studies, his retreat? He did that kind of stuff during the A. He is more involved now, but we never missed a Sunday during his A. So that isn't hard work to me. Hard work to me is giving up the admiration of his peers to gain it from his wife. That is hard work. Not doing what you want to benefit the marriage. So he's in 2 bible studies...so what? What good is the word if you aren't going to apply it to your life?!

I don't understand what you are trying to say. You are welcome to clarify it, or we can just drop the subject. Tomorrow is MC and we will discuss it at length. I always like my MC advice, so I'll have some direction after tomorrow. I will let you know what she says and how I will handle situations like this in the future.

Off to see fireworks soon. Chat with you guys tomorrow.
2

Holiday,
What did you mean by this line? I am sorry..what talk are we talking and what walk will they do???

Also, I guess I come across as very controling..I am not. I am actually very low maintance...which is one of the reasons my H could have an affair so easily. I do not contol everything my H does, and I honestly don't think 2 does either. I think there are situations that I like to have some control over, but in the end I know, and I think 2 knows, that we cannot control our H's actions. Do you really let your H do whatever he wants??? I can't imagine you not saying, "honey, I need you to not do ________ right now...it is still too painful or I feel I cannot trust you in this sitch." I think that is part of building a healthier marriage...asking your spouse to take your feelings into consideration. They obviously did not take your feelings into consideration while they were screwing OW, did they?

Should they be punished forever??? No. But, I do not think that asking my H to come to bed with me until I feel more comfortable or 2 asking her H to stay away from places that in the past have been a springboard into inappropriate behavior is punishment. Maybe her H sees it as such in this case( and that is what MC is for)...but my H is willing to do WHATEVER it takes. If her H is not...then you are right..leave him...he is not worth the time.

Also, we did choose to stay, but that does not mean that we have to choose accepting all that they do. My choice to stay...and 2's choice also had more to it that just loving our H's. There are other things connected to our marriage that are more important than he or I individually...so, when I am venting...part of it probably has to do with the fact that if I did not have kids...I would not be here with him today. I would have left despite my love for him. I am guessing 2 feels similar to this.

Also, you are right..he did stay married to me. I told him, the MC told him, heck, everybody told him, that he would need to jump through hoops in order to keep me. He could no longer be the "taker" he had become...he was to give to me until he could give no further....and honestly, he has done that. He has grown distant this past little while...but I think part of that is my own fear creeping in. So, he knew what he was in for when he stayed. He admits that sometimes it is frustrating, but he also knows that what he did devestated me beyond reason...so he will take anything I dish out in order to remain my H( I think that is why I got so upset with the things your H said....he did not sound like he is willing to take anything you dish out...and yes, I know I do not know him or what you are really like...I am just saying that is the impression I got). I am thankful my H sees my feelings/needs are greater than his at this time(not forever, just for now).

I know we are all different, but I hope we can ALL learn from one another...even in the heated moments. It is nice to know that there are other passionate women out there. I wish we could all see in the future...then maybe we could see how we all turn out. Then we would all know which path to truly take. Since we can't, I appreciate the chance to vent/share/argue with you all.

True