Please help. One day good. The next day, made a mess. I'm not sure what to do. Trying and today I failed -- big time. The saga continues below... Please help.

Sally


So what do you do when…? WSO doesn’t keep the conversation light. When WSO doesn’t want to let things go unsaid. When WSO pushes for straight, heavy relationship discussion? What was I supposed to do? We talked for an hour this morning. It started off all well and good. Light, happy and even constructive. Phil is considering other ideas and options for our home where I keep our house and he lives his life OK with that… A pretty big change. We’ll have to see where that goes.

At this point I tried to get off the phone graciously. Phil kept going. I couldn’t tell if maybe I was being too passive. I didn’t want to hang up. (Later he clarified, no, he wouldn’t let things go.)

Then we had a couple of minutes of me being really completely phony. Phil started asking about the gardens. Is anything in bloom yet honey? What are all of the colors? So I told him. It all must be so beautiful. “Got any pictures?” “Will you take pictures and send them to me so I can see it?”

I said he could see the gardens. (((mistake))) He said he couldn’t really. I didn’t say anything.

Phil: Do you understand what I mean? ((( and since I didn’t. I didn’t say I did.)))

Sally: I guess if there is something I should understand you could just go ahead and explain it.

Phil: I just really can’t make it there this week. It takes so much time. It’s a long drive. I haven’t been home much in the past two weeks because ______________. I wanted to stay here and rest this weekend and maybe get some furniture, but maybe Saturday. I have some time Saturday.

So actually, I was relieved. I guess my rotten reasoning was telling me that it was better to not be worth the drive because he was tired (or lying) than because it was too hard to see ME. He made it not about me. It was still about him and that felt a little better. I said there was no pressure and we’ll see… Then I tried to get off the phone… again, guess I wasn’t trying hard enough to be effective. :-(

Phil kept talking so we chatted about what’s going on where he is. He told me about how he has no furniture and how he made measurement mistakes and so on… And for the first time in a long time, he very pointedly asked me what was going on with me and what was I doing?

My first reaction/feeling about that was that the question he wanted answered is am I seeing anyone. It was fleeting, but it was that first instinct… I didn’t want to punish him and not answer when he asked me directly about myself, but I really wanted to get off the phone too. I tried to keep it light and not emotional. Talked about the job search, about looking at places but moved on from that because we’d already talked about that, and was just working a few things out for myself and concentrating on moving toward some happier times…

BIG blunder for Sally. :-( Well, that got Phil busy asking a lot of tough questions. It was all fast and yet, it wasn’t.

Phil: What can you tell me about? What’s going on with us? Is there anything you want to know from me?

I said I wanted to know how things were going with him. I cared about his well-being. I was interested in what was happening with him at the office and with his friends and family since the A… and right now for us, I thought it was important to stop concentrating on what’s past and just deal with what’s going on with us now. Maybe at some point in the future if we decide to work on things together, we could talk more about what I want to know.

Blunder #4326: I asked if there was anything he thought HE needed to know now that couldn’t wait.

Phil asked, Do I think his A had to do with our broken engagement/relationship?

I said that I did think it was a contributor, much the way certain things I did contributed to problems with our relationship. I was calm and pretty emotionless, but Phil wouldn’t let that go. We turned it around for a few minutes. He wanted to know if I am so willing to listen to him, why won’t I consider that A w/OW had nothing to do with his decision to leave me. (His words. They stung. It was the first time he outright said he left me. I knew it but it was the first time he ever said it. Before it was always, I had to get away or I thought we couldn’t keep going that way…)

I said I didn’t want to argue about it. I thought that what he was saying was important for me to hear, but that there were some things I wasn’t going to concede, that I had *boundaries* and one of them was that I didn’t want to get heavily into conversation about OW because I didn’t think that was our problem… I kept it cool and as light and emotion-free as possible still. But it was getting much harder and Phil wasn’t letting up at all…

Phil: It’s important to me that you agree with me about this.

Sally: Are you still together with her?

Phil: No. That’s over. *pause* (He got a little angry sounding but it wasn’t too convincing.) I already told you that’s done. It’s wasn’t the right thing for me. It’s in the past. Why won’t you believe me?

Sally: It helps me to hear you say that you’re not with OW. I want to know what is going on with you but I don’t want to get into heavy talk about you and me or the past with OW. I’m saying I’d rather spend our time together having less heavy conversations. I’ve enjoyed some of our fun chats. I’d just rather be doing fun things and talking about fun things and if we decide in the future that there is a reason to go over this stuff, perhaps with a counselor, then we can do that in the future.

Phil: So you’re saying you don’t want to talk about it. But if I bring it up you’ll talk about it? Why won’t you believe me that A had nothing to do with our problems? I already knew it wasn’t going to work out and was resigned to breaking things off anyway. I was just too weak to do it before. I never went looking for anything outside or our relationship before we had our problems last fall. There wasn’t anything between me and OW. We were only friends. Why won’t you agree that we weren’t going to work out anyway? How can we be together in any way at all if we aren’t on the same page on this?

I tried to say that I care about what contributed to our break up. I wanted to know what he thought and I was willing to talk about it all only if we decide together that having that discussion(s) will be constructive for us and our future together. Until we make that decision, I’m not ready to get into it with him…

Phil: What do you want for us the future?

Sally: I want you to be happy. I want to be happy with myself. If there is a way for us to be happy together, that is what I want.

Phil: What do you mean when you say you want me to be happy and that you want us to be happy together?

Sally: I love you.

Phil: (interrupting) I love you too.

Sally: I’m trying to say I care about you and I love you. I thought about our conversation last week and thought I might have given you the impression that I didn’t care about you.

Phil: Yeah. I think that is what I thought after talking. That you didn’t care.

Sally: I care. I love you very much. We’ve spent a lot of years building our life together and a few years tearing it down and I still love you and still see a lot of good in our relationship now. If there is a time when we decide to try building a new relationship together that is something I want and would support. Is that what you thought I meant?

Phil: Yes. It is.

Sally: Really?

Phil: Yes. Really… I guess… I… I’m worried that what I want for our future is so different from what you want for us together. I want us to be friends. That’s all I want.

Sally: Right now I think we’re not friends and we’re not together and what we do now will determine what happens with us in the future. The best I can offer is to spend time with you and talk and see what happens moving forward. I don’t have any answers about what will happen. I think it has to be something we figure out together as we go.

Phil. OK.

Sally: This isn’t the conversation I thought we were going to have and I really wanted to stop and get off the phone.

Phil: I really wasn’t going to let it go. I was pushing this.

Sally: OK, well I wasn’t sure. I’m not upset. Maybe a little surprised.

Phil: You don’t seem upset. This is something that was important for me to talk about. I wanted to talk about it.

Sally: OK. Thanks for letting me know. I’m going to go now. I do like talking with you very much.

Phil: Maybe next time we’ll have a fun conversation instead of a serious one.

Sally: Yeah. I love you Phil. (((and I really do)))

Phil. I love you too. (((and he said like he really meant it.)))

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So I listened, but talked too. When I shouldn't have but it seemed like he needed it. And now I am back in the doghouse. Or at least it seems like it. Tiny steps forward, huge steps back. And maybe I really should believe what he says? That it was all doomed anyway...

:-(

What next gentle MBers?

Sally

Sally, you handled yourself so beautifully that I don't see at all that you did anything wrong. He said ILY back right? Keep going, you IMHO are doing great.

Sally - I'm not sure of what to tell you, but I'll try.

First, the issue about OW not being the reason for your breakup. Just like most affairs, the OP was probably just a symptom of pre-existing problems. But continuation of the affair, despite his denials that it's continuing, is clearly the reason for why you two are not able to reconcile. In the end, I don't think this distinction is important.



Then in the next breath he professes his love for you.

These two claims are incompatible, IMHO.

I suggest you cut him loose - as soon as you can settle the property division. Where is that? Or am I confusing you with someone else?

Cut him loose.

If, after a while, he can communicate without the contradictions suggesting OW is still in the picture, perhaps you two can have a second chance.

But one thing is for sure - do NOT marry this guy nor enter any further joint ownership of assets or property WITHOUT some form of pre-nup agreement. He's not worth the risk.

Sally, I'm sorry I cannot offer a rosy scenario. I don't see one until he gets his head outta his but, which will take the equivalent of Plan B or cutting him loose just like any other failed, non-marriage relationship if it can happen at all.

WAT

I feel terrible. Once again wasn't quick enough or smart enough to do better. Should have set up a time to get together on Saturday but I was chicken-sh*t, fearing he'd reject me once he threw it out there...

He has been really doing a lot of thinking about the house situation and is coming around to dismissing the idea of selling. He didn't think any of the listings he'd sent were particularly attractive and he sees the prices are too high for me to buy here.

I guess he said more than I wrote up above, but as I was typing it was easier to remember what I said today. In truth, I was very upset during the whole conversation after the house talk. A far cry from last week where I wasn't upset at all. I wasn't out of control, but really, I felt wretched.

He also didn't (As everyone but me already knew) tell any of his friends or family about the A. No fallout from exposure whatsoever. One friend of ours - his friend - knows and has known since beginning and strongly urged Phil to get away from the A and OW as quickly as possible. OK, Phil has one real friend among lots of breathers. One friend is a lot.

I don't know what to think. If I consider what Phil is saying about his feelings and the validity of them, then I am being stupid for holding onto any feelings at all. That would seem to be the message he is giving me. That there is no hope.

I would guess that he feels pretty uncomfortable thinking I am going to be chasing him and pining for him and that any time we're together he'll be leading me on. Of course, he doesn't know about Plan B...

I don't think I did a good job with Plan A today but I didn't know what to do and I hate lying. Even to save whatever is left of us, I don't want to lie to do it. And I am already lying because I am scheming to hold onto him. I am trying to build a life without him, hoping with everything in me to build a life with him later.

Why is it that everything I do is so transparent to him? If he already knows this is what I want then why bother with me at all?

:-(

Sally

WAT, was posting and just read what you wrote.

No worries ever about speaking your mind to me. I want real thrills in my life, not rosy fantasies... and, also, you're probably right and this is something to be filed with other unrequited, unrealized romances. I thought it was more... We were engaged to be married, but I guess no, Phil knew it wasn't going to be even before he proposed...

I don't think it's confusing that he says he loves me. I think he does despite himself. He just doesn't want to love me anymore in the future. I think I get it.

:-(

I'll keep up with Plan A until the finances are settled. (yes, that was me) and/or until there is a better reason to stay with it.

I'd already set myself a Plan A due date of July 4. Just to have perspective for myself about where I wanted to be in my life... That's still a good date as house stuff will take a while to be decided. Plan A efforts have helped me out with that so far. Maybe I'll get to keep my house!

Sheltered and loveless is better than homeless and loveless any day...


:-(

Sally

Phil called me. So we spent the last hour talking some more. Now I'm crying. I feel better and worse.

Actually the meat of our conversation wasn't bad. Beyond his arguing and self-rationalizing any time I said anything to stand up for myself, was a lot of constructive stuff. His conversation was full of honey's and sweeties and this-is-frustrating-mes.

He kept saying (A w/OW) is over. It's finished. No we're still talking to each other. I guess it's not over then but I don't see how that has anything to do with you... He said the secret letters and phonecalls and get-togethers have all stopped and now all of their interaction is out in the open for all to witness. Whatever that means...

Why does he need to go over all of this if we're (Phil and I) over and not fixable?

Sally

Phil just called me back again. He said he was going to send an e-mail but decided to just call me and speak directly? It could have gone any way... but he called to apologize for the way our last (second) conversation ended. I started crying and snuffling more. He said he thought he'd been condescending and unkind (couldn't bring himself to say MEAN) and he was sorry and he hadn't meant to be like that. Said, he got frustrated and didn't know how to get off the phone better but he knew he was wrong.

WAT, you were dead-on about his reaction last week. (that was you right?) He said something about Friday's conversation made him think I didn't care about him or love him anymore. He knew deep inside that of course I must care, but he said I seemed so detached and care-free that he got to thinking that I didn't love him and didn't care about his happiness. He said it was a really bad feeling in his gut and it was something he couldn't shake and it made him feel bad all week until he heard from me.

He said feeling like that started him down a dark path of thinking that if I didn't care about his happiness, then I probably never loved him to begin with and if I never loved him, then I didn't love him or care about him one way or another at all. And from there he said it took him to thinking it didn't bother me if he was hurting or in trouble. And if his suffering didn't bother me, then probably I was trying to hurt him and cause him suffering on purpose. He said he knew it was his own problematic rationale, but he went down that path anyway.

He asked me again to forgive him and he cared about me. I said I loved him and cared about him and thanked him for telling this. And said we'd talk soon. (to let him get off the phone) He said he loved me and cares about what happens to me. I said it was good to hear him say that and that I would probably always care about him. He said he knew he was always going to care about me and love me and that this wasn't goodbye. He wasn't saying goodbye. And he would call me back soon. (Which could mean any second at this rate.) And so we said 'bye.

Deep breaths. In. Out.

My tears are dry. I think this is so screwed up I don't know what to think again. I'm very tired.

Sally

I really don't like the idea of him expecting you to just 'be friends' with him. He wants to placate his guilt and still get his fixes from you. Maybe you will be okay with that but I think it would be painful and demeaning. This breakup isn't really a mutual decision. He is basically dumping you and wanting to remain 'friends'. He may want to string you alone as Phil's little fan club or an insurance policy. Can't we all be friends? Maybe you can be friends with his OW too? I don't think so.
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You do not need to make him feel good about himself by agreeing that the friendship then relationship with the OW did not affect his decision to not marry you. Granted he may have been getting to a place that he was thinking that your relationship wasn't headed in a direction he was happy with. I think this has more to do with extended living together and playing married by prematurely mixing finances without the vows and commitment of marriage, than whether or not you could have had a successful marriage to each other.

Dr. Harley is really against living together before marriage because it sets up a renter's or freeloader's mentality.
Get his book 'The One' which explains all this.

Unfortunately, you had probably gotten to a complacent place in your relationship instead of nurturing it. You may have taken if for granted.

He probably doesn't understand what proper bounderies concerning opposite sex friendships are when you are in a commited relationship. But after all...you weren't married. He probably started to discuss his complaints about your R with OW while they developed their 'friendship'. In a marriage, that wouldn't work. She lent a sympathetic ear and it progressed from there. Or it was just fun for him and it was getting less fun being tied to you.

Plan B will be helpful for you on many levels. Hard to say whether or not it will effect how he decides about a future with you, but he might miss what you two were building together. Just be careful about offering him fixes and the message that you are pining for him. Until plan B..then continue to plan A and try throwing in some 180 behaviors.
If nothing else, you will start to feel better about you and a possible new direction for yourself.

Sally can you get away from the phone for the rest of the day? Maybe go to a movie, a long walk, work out, something.

Plan A or not, I think you need a break from the phone ringing, or waiting for it to ring.

And, some exercise will help your body process the stress of the day.

Your reports of the conversations all sound within Plan A to me. Honest communication, no lovebusters. You don't have to agree with his view of the relationship with your or with OW.

Hey Trix and Lor,

Thanks for the feedback.

Trix -- I hear ya, one thing to be certain -- I did not agree with his assessment of A and hows and whys at all. Truthfully I can concede that the A was not THE sole reason for him to call off our engagement (regardless of whether it was or not, trigger or not) and abandon me and all of his responsibilities here. What set Phil off on his mad question rant was that I wouldn't agree with him on the rest of his bull or how he was perfectly justified in seeking A.

Phil told me he is constantly having to re-evaluate (((has and should I would say))) just who loves whom and how. He doesn't know who he can trust. Regardless of his frustration with me, there is a lot in me that is still a safe haven for him. Even my disagreeing has some draw. When it's important, I care enough to tell him what I think and not clam up or only tell him what I think he wants to hear.

Lately it hasn't been that important. But today there was no way I was going to say his A was acceptable... No way. I still have not once made a single judgmental remark to Phil about his A. I have not once made a single judgmental remark to Phil about OW. I have kept those thoughts here and in my own heart only. When Phil needs someone to trust with his SOUL (not the lovey soulmate crap but his true inner being), he knows he can count on me.

WAT talked to me about power when I first posted on the boards and I didn't really get what he was talking about then. I'm still not feeling like Sally-warrior-princess, but I am beginning to understand that there is power that comes along with being true and accountable to myself and others. It's not about being self-righteous. I'm not. In my heart is a festering, swearing, mean-spirited woman who does not like Phil's behavior or his OW.

I don't know what to call the power thing... and I don't know why I wrote all of this except I wanted to point out that I was NOT a doormat and even though I was absolutely RAW after these calls. I don't regret anything I said during those conversations. :-) I guess I found a smile again.

LOR, I am going to keep on with Plan A until my house is in order - literally! :-) Then I'm going to San Fermin to test my courage and after that I'm going plan B.

Sally