By Melody:
I never said he was abusive for being "emotionally unavailable." His emotional unavailability was the majority of the discussion with allusions to other posts that included what I believe to be manipulation of a high order, which I have included links to support my ideas.

~ZP

zuzus, I can post the definition of whor*, but that doesn't mean that I will label every adulterer as such:

whor* ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hôr, hr)
n.
A prostitute.
A person considered sexually promiscuous.
A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.

Or do you feel we should begin that practice? Because technically this applies to every adulterer and would be following the principle you suggest.

It may be your standard to label yourself as an "abuser" for committing a lovebuster, but common sense dictates that we are doing ourselves a disservice by stretching the term to such a bizarre extreme. Dr. Harley acknowledges that everyone commits lovebusters, however, he does not condemn everyone as an "abuser." That would be just silly.

Labeling someone as an "abuser" for "emotional unavailablity" does a huge disservice to those who are REALLY abused, especially victims of adultery, and only serves to hurt the credibility of the accuser.

I would hope folks would use a little more common sense in the use of the word "abuser." It is a serious accusation that should not be tossed about cavalierly, especially in a format where folks have committed real acts of abuse, such as adultery.

Actually, I don't think he IS aware. He is, as many of us have been, caught up in his emotional nightmare and is lashing out without thought. That's why this has been brought up over and over - because he continues to act out in that manner over and over. Yes, he acknowledges that his behavior is not good, but then immediately justifies it by pointing out what she's done to instigate it. OK, if she's saying and doing the things he reports (not saying she's not, but we never do know what anyone's reality is, do we?) she's being mean - but as we all know, this is classic WS behavior. TD is showing that he can talk the talk, but he doesn't really seem to even try to walk the walk.

He has not read any of the Harley books, at least he has not stated so in any of his posts. Instead he has been reading books for divorcing men. How can that be helpful? He has continually ignored advice given to him over and over again. The only way we can help is to continue to point out the ways in which HIS behavior is destructive to his marriage and make suggestions as to how he can change those behaviors.

If he continues to ignore everyone, at some point, many of the good people here at MB will wash their hands of him and let him founder on the rocks. Because you cannot help someone who will not help themselves. TD is certainly not the first person that this has happened with - anyone remember Glenn and Carol? (that should give you an idea how long I've been around MB) - and his case is not the worst, by far.

But - as long as people concentrate on berating those who are weilding 2x4's in an attempt to help because they don't like their choice of words or they don't like what forum they normally post in, TD will have to struggle to get the value out of any of it, and we will not be helping him at all. And that's just not Marriage Building at its finest, is it?

And BRAVO to ZZP who points out that she's from MB - just as we all are.

CS

When pigs fly? Is that them?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Melody,

I do have common sense. I am not doing anything bizzarre. I'm using an English word that has a meaning, and I'm using it in the proper way.

If others twist that meaning to apply to a limited use, I'm not going to stop them, but I am not wrong to use it.

Just as I'm not wrong to use the word gay to mean "happy."

~ZP

I've already answered this. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I ever used the word "abuser." I said "abuse" and "abusive," which clearly relates to the behavior.

~ZP

I think you are trying a little too hard to indict TiredDad, my dear. A "strategy" is a plan of action and not a one time event. Instead of poring over Harley's writings looking for legalistic ways to indict TD, why not look for ways to help his marriage? ghl, if I didn't know any better, I would have to say you were on a witch hunt. What has brought this on?


It wouldn't change my opinion that it is counterproductive to endlessly harp at the man about being "abusive."

\

Frankly, zuzus, I don't see it being used here. I think that labeling a devastated man for using lovebusters as an "abuser" does not bespeak compassion, much less common sense.

And yes, you can call us all "abusers" for using lovebusters, but we can all ignore such a silly and exaggerated use of the term.

Can we STOP this nonesense and maybe come up with a plan to HELP these people! I know for a fact that BOTH of them want to SAVE the marriage...but they dont know HOW TO!

TD wants help and so does BT, but they are having a hard time coming up with a concrete plan...

Why dont we all work TOGETHER to come up with a plan instead of trying to figure out if TD is abusive or not! Does that matter now? He is here trying to get the help he needs to make his marriage work! Abusive or NOT, please lets try to help these people and stop throwing around accusations...

They BOTH want to save their marriage! So lets try to help them with that...

TD, if we come up with a plan for YOU AND BT will you guys do your best to implement it? Will you stop with the AO and try to work on a solid plan of getting the marriage to the point it needs to be now? If you dont follow a plan you cannot expect the marriage to survive!

Your opinion. You're entitled.

~ZP

Then how would you define someone who uses those behaviors? If a person is not defined by their behavior then by what standard should he be defined?

No, but your pal ghnl did so. CS also used it to indict TD. Which only demonstrates how irresponsibly the label is being tossed about on this forum.

You're right that a user of abusive behaviors can be called an abuser. But like you also said, it goes to pattern.

I've not seen the pattern yet, and I would like for it not to be established or reestablished, so I refrain from classifying him as an abuser for now.

I have abusers in my life who I love. I have used abusive behaviors myself, and yes, some (LBs, particularly DJs) are patterned. I continue to strive to stop them and hope that I can completely quit using them, as I think I'm almost there.

I can see a person who uses abusive behaviors and still love them. I am not ashamed of the people, and I want them to feel no shame in being HUMAN before me.

I do think there should be some shame related to them before God and the people they are used against. There should be remorse. But I will only point it out, and refrain from judgment as much as possible.

If I see a pattern of Emotional Abuse, or Physical Abuse, or Sexual Abuse, I will call it out. If I see some abusive behaviors, I will call them out, without a particular label such as those before. I believe in clear designations, unlike my use of the term "abuse." It's general abuse. It's not accomplishing a particular goal, like riding someone down to an emotional blob. It just a stinging word or sentence, designed to elicit a particular response in the now. To me, that is very different.

Thanks, for letting me expound, because I'm sure that is not clear in my posts (and I'm hoping it's clearer now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />). Edit: and I probably need to include some sort of differentiation in posts.

~ZP

zuzupetals, Crystal Springs wrote in response to my question of what TD had done to deserve being called "abusive:"


To which I responded:

ML: "Being "emotionally unavailable" is not abuse..."

ghnl set me straight with:


I guess ghnl only feels that my "interpretation" is invalid, hehee All others are good to go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The above demonstrates my point that the label of "abuse" is being irresponsibly bandied about to be a catch all for just about anything. Next I suppose we will be attacking WS's with this label for their adultery.

I would suggest that it is adding insult to injury to be so disrespectful to a new BS to heap such a label on his head at time of great shock and grief in his life. It is completely unneccesary and counterproductive. I can just imagine the shrieks if we all insisted on calling WW's "whor*s" so I can't fathom why we are insisting on calling the users of lovebusters [which would be ALL OF US] "abusers." C'mon folks, lets use some common sense here.

Mmm...okay, I gotcha. If they differ with them, I'll let them handle it, whew!

~ZP

First, I'm not opposed to call adultery abuse. I see no harm in calling things what they are. I do not believe in ATTACKING someone with needless words like I've seen many times for being a WS.

I did not attribute anything T_D has posted that I've read as a type of abuse. I think I mostly used the phrase along with the term LB ("...and other forms of abuse").

I get your point about how it can be startling, and maybe maddening, to a BS to be told his/her behaviors are abusive. And yes, it can be counterproductive.

I think I have discussed this enough with T_D that it isn't so startling for him to hear it now. But I do think it would be wise to show him what the term means to me. I noticed BA linked this thread, so...what to do...?

I think I need to review the thread we're discussing here.

~ZP

I very much appreciate your clarification because I think you are exactly right. It must relate back to a pattern of behavior in order to define a person as such. I think there are abusive patterns - or "strategies" as Harley defines them - that define an abusive marriage; an abusive person.

That being said, I am very much in line with you about calling a spade a spade, however, I would never think it would be helpful to tell a WW she has been acting like a ho'. [unless she is currently doing it and then I might be so inclined to point it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />]

Along the same lines, I especially don't think its productive to tell a recent victim of adultery that they are abusive for using common, everyday lovebusters. That is as disrespectful as calling a WW names, IMO. I think we should all help them strive to avoid lovebusters, but we don't have to call them abusive to do it.

Thanks for the great discussion, ZP. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not involved in this debate at all, but I felt the need to share something I looked into for my own self: emotional abuse, the excerpts from a booklet I purchased. Obviously the message of the book is for the abused spouse to take a look into their own lives and see what they can do to change the pattern of abuse. I hope if anybody here is using these methods of control, that they would also be able to take a look at their own actions, attitudes and behaviors.

Here's subtle forms of abuse

Constant Criticism, it can be subtle or dramatic

Control, "One of the passive abuser's favorite weapos is control He wants to be in control of everythign, fro how you think to how you act. In fact, one of the quickest ways of determining if this for of abuse is taking place is to take this test: How often do you say the words, "He allowed me to do that today"? In this atmosphere our individualtiy dies.

You don't Know this is being told emphatically that you don't know what you know. That is what he would have you believe: Things are not the way that they seem to you. He did not do what you know he has done. He does not critize you as much as it seems to you...Worse yet, he blames you for exaggerating the truth. You are the one to blame, not him. THerapists actually call this "crazymaking" This constant attack on perceptions ultimately leads to self-doubt....

Physical Violence, Threats, Intimidation: This is not subtle, but blatant, though they may happen only periodically. Verbal intimidation, with the occasional push or physical threat, goes a long way in establishing control.

Don't Be Angry: While it is clearly all right for others to be angry, you may have learned that your anger is not permissible. If you get angry, he gets angrier. He feels threatened with your anger and does not know how to deal with it. He may rage back at you, thus overwhelming you and making it unsafe to have healthy conflict with him. Anger and raging have proven to be useful techniques for him, in that they have won him another level of control.

Shifting the BlameNot only will many men not take responsibility for their actions, they feel compelled to blame others (you) for their problems. You may be experiencing a tendency to accept the blame for all things. ..This pattern will erode your sense of well-being, not to mention reinforce his inappropriate pattern of blaming others.

Controlling your Friends and Activities: obviously, this isolates the abused which actually is a support system. A subtle form of this is when he critizices your family and friends constantly.

Your Needs are ignored As you consider your relationship to an abusive man, you will come to see the pattern of his self-centeredness. You may feel at times that you must always focus on his life and his needs, andwhen you do not, you pay a price. You may find that he does not really concern himself with your well-being, and if you do have a need, you are encouraged to get over it soon.

Taking Inventory: here are some patterns of signs of subtle, emotional abuse for the abused person to take a look at

He blames me for everthing that goes wrong
He puts down or controls access to my friends and/or faily
He controls the way our money is spent
I feel responsibile for his bad moods and feelings
I accept the blame for problems that are not mine
I alter my behavior to please him
I have been called derogatory names
I have been excessivly criticized, feeling like I cannot do anything right
My friends have been criticized
I have been discouraged from seeing, and denied access to my friends
My relatives have been called names or criticezed.
I have been told that I do not know anything
I have been told that I could never make it on my own
I have been kicked,hit or slapped
My spouse has thrown objects, especially those of importance to me
My spouse has broken things, like doors or walls
My spouse has threatened that if I left I would lose everything
Our children have been used against me
Our children have witness, or heard, the abuse in our home
My spouse has slapped, hit, pushed, or kicked our children
My spouse has called our children derogatory names
I have been controlled with our money
My spouse always wants to know what I am doing and checks up on me
I have been discouraged from getting a job outside the home
I am afraid of my spouse
I am told that I have no reason to be afraid
My outside activities/friendships have diminished
My spouse does not seem to value my opinion
My spouse makes decisions without my input
I have a history of being abused
My spouse has threatened to harm me
My spouse has manipulated me sexually
My spouse has threatened me with guns/weapons
I am afraid to tell anyone what is really happening in our home
I have lost self confidene
I have lost respect for my spouse

Moving, that is why we are discussing this HERE and not on TD's thread - which was where Melody Lane wanted to discuss it. I created this thread FOR this discussion. I think it is important that it be settled somewhere NOT on the thread of a person needing advice.

However, I disagree that it is up to us to come up with a plan for TD and BT - it is up to THEM. Any plan that we come up with would be flawed by us not having all the facts, and that we are NOT professionals. We can only offer advice - they need to do the work themselves. My advice to TD is that he do the work. I haven't had the opportunity to to talk to BT, and frankly, my background doesn't make me the best person to advise a WS/OW, since I am divorced due to my ex's affair with a person of more than questionable ethics.

CS

Okay, and another clarification. I was pointing to the situation of T_D using the kids in the part I quoted that BT posted. To me, this is abuse. I think it's a control tactic and from BT's post, that is exactly how he used it, to manipulate her into responding to his questions.

But you are right that I do call some LBs abuse. I will reconsider my use of the term.

Thanks,

~ZP