This is a fascinating forum to say the least. Sites like this to me is what the net is all about. Many of you have taken the time to reply with some sound advice more often than not to other members that I find very refreshing and admirable. I too hope someday to do the same; unfortunately first I must seek some opinions regarding a dilemma I have with respects to my wife of 13 years.

First off what I would like are opinions from women. I feel most men would agree with my feelings and only reinforce my negative thoughts in trying to understand.

My wife plays poker online. The site is a play-for-fun site and does not offer real gambling opportunity. She has been on there for years. The site offers a 3D aviator to each player and unlike most other poker sites there is much more chatting among the members. In a nutshell, she has developed online friends there. Most of her friends are women. There are plenty of men there and playful sexual innuendoes are the norm. That doesn’t bother me. in a community setting anyway, after all boys will be boys.

What does bother me is when I found an MSN instant message left on the computer where my wife was chatting in private with a male poker player. I came home early one day and my wife neglected to close the IM program and went next door to visit a neighbor. Both my wife and this ‘Bobby’ character agreed to a short break before resuming their conversation.

I read the entire instant message. I looked as though that they do this often while I’m at work and although 90% was chatting about poker and about other players (they chat privately and play at the same time) there was also some strong sexual teasing going on. Mostly by my wife!

Now first off, I’m not a jealous or controlling type of husband. My wife has always been somewhat flirty (we both are) and I have never been upset or had any situation disturb me. We are an attractive couple with two small children and keep ourselves physically fit. Men will always hit on my wife – I know that and I’ve always trusted her throughout our marriage and she in turn has never had any reason to believe that I have been unfaithful to her.

Anyway, what I did that afternoon was go into the MSN program and activate the history that was turned off. My plan was to leave and at a later date go back and read what was written. I did not confront her.

You probably know where this story is going.

They did indeed chat on a daily basis. They have a bond of sorts. He too is married and lives back east and we live on the west coast.

Here is the dilemma. I wouldn’t call what they do an affair although some would argue that point. Nor would I call it cybersex because there was no how shall we say blow-by-blow description of masturbation going on. There were indeed plenty of sexual overtones and innuendos. I also might add that she did not discuss any private details of our relationship but did discuss her hobbies, kids, job and such. She knew all about his real life of being a trainer in a gym and general details about his wife, kids and sexual thoughts.

After a week or so she discovered that there was a history in the IM program and claimed that she made an effort to turn that feature off so that I would not find out their secrete. All I knew is that the history files had been deleted. So like any suspecting husband would do I had a choice. Confront her about this or install a keylogger to continue monitoring their conversations.

I chose to install a keylogger. Clearly an invasion of privacy but I feel that I need to know where this was going. I felt if I confront her with my concerns she would use other alternatives to communicate with him.

I monitored her for on three different occasions. They chatted in private and played poker at the same time. All of this is strange to me in a way. She sent him pictures (facial, nothing sexy) and teased each other sexually but never had live masturbation or even mentioned it.

They would brag about how they had sex with their SO

He claims to love his wife dearly; my wife says the same about me. She had no idea that there is a keylogger installed on our computer and that I can read everything they both write and I can see each and every website she visits, her email, passwords….you name it.

Keyloggers also have an image feature called snapshots where you can see what she sees in 10-second increments. It’s like watching a recorded movie when I turn it on after she goes to bed.

Am I disturbed? …….Yes I am….clearly all of this is her little secrete (as his) but it’s not a romantic affair in the traditional sense nor is it masturbating cybersex . I will admit I am astonished at my wife’s sexual aggressiveness toward him. Remember this is the same pattern each day the five days that I am at work. 90% poker chat, 10% sex talk.

Ladies, your thoughts please…………before I confront her.

Hello,

I think this is very bad news. Your wife is in an emotional affair. Her best friend is another man. She shares her sexual fantasies with him. This is a path that will lead if unchecked to the destruction of your marriage. You must take this very seriously. Internet affairs are very popular and destructive to marriages. Generally what happens after a while is that they have a strong desire to meet somewhere on a trip.
Let me ask you this. Say this OM did not live on the East Coast but lived a few miles away. Would you accept this behavior from your wife? She and he are sharing their sexual fantasies with each other. Eventually they will be tempted to explore these fantasies with each other. What they are doing is a little dance that gets them more emotionally connected as time goes bye. Are you going to wait until she is totally emotionally involved and she does something she regrets. These are really bad signs.

Finally let me ask you this. If the roles were reversed would your wife be accepting of you being on the internet constantly, sharing pictures and talking about your sexual fantasies with one specific woman? I doubt it very much. I suggest marriage counseling at once. It will be a matter of time before this will blow up on the both of you. I wish you luck.

OK my mistake here. They really don’t go into detail about fantasy or anything. There has been no real concentrated chatting about sex directly, its mostly playing poker and chatting at the same time. The conversations are simply laced a bit with sex chat.

I’m not in any way trying to defend her…..don’t misunderstand.

I know this can be harmful and ****** no she wouldn’t like me doing it.

Nor am I waiting for it to become to late to intervene. I’m just perplexed that’s all. You are a male and like me that’s exactly what I would say. I simply want a female’s opinion on this.

I have no doubt that we will end up in a marriage councilors couch here real soon.

Copy your original post over on the Infidelity General Questions II board. The entire site is really slow on the weekend but there are still significantly more posters over there. All the experienced posters hang out over there most of the time.

I personally would purchase the book his needs/her needs by Dr. Harley. It is available on this site. Read it yourself before you confront her. Although your situation is seemingly not as big a problem as I had...EA/PA FWW had with x high school boyfriend...I know it is just a serious a concern to you personally and I am sorry you are here.

I believe you will discover your wife did not intentionally set out to get this close to one guy on the internet. It has been a slippery slope that has already gone to far. Fortunately, for you, you have the opportunity to nip it in the bud before it does get more serious...which it could.

There are resources on this site regarding the policy of joint agreement and radical honestly which you should review. Do not feel guilty for spying on your wife. Her behavior directly affects you and you have a right to know what goes on in your life/marriage.

I believe your situation is very fixable; and, in the end, you will probably end up with a better marriage than you currently have. Post on GQII board and include asking for advice to devise an exposure plan. If you do nothing, nothing will change. You will only know the seriousness of the situation once you confront her. It will go one of two ways:

She'll attack you, accuse you of invading her privacy, controlling her, and neglecting her. She will claim every right to have and maintain such "friend", etc.

OR

She'll seriously regret having kept the secret from you, know it was wrong and apologize because it went "a little" to far. She will immediately cease contact with the man and recommit to the marriage.

The later more rarely happens. You can "bet" she has already rationalized and justified her behavior to date and does not think it is wrong. But until you confront her and you post her reaction we can not know how bad your situation really is. You need a D-Day plan.

Mr. Wonderings
(sorry another guy - the women are over on GQII but my wife has read and agreed with my post)

Scarne, okay, I'm a woman.

You have quite a poker face yourself! Installing a key logger, etc and knowing all this w/o letting on!! Wow, that takes some will.

Anyway, yes this behavior is a major problem. I know you don't want to hear that.

His Needs, Her Needs is a good place to start, or I would even really recommend the first few chapters (at least) of Harley's Surviving an Affair. Why? Because the first couple chapters outline exactly how well-meaning, married people "fall" into affairs by not protecting their "Love Banks". Your "love bank" is filled by another person meeting your emotional needs. If a person fills it up too far other than your spouse, it triggers feelings of romantic love like clockwork. It's true. Your W is having her emotional need for communication, companionship, s*xual fulfillment, and positive affirmations met by this other person on the poker site. She is also meeting those same needs for him.

So as Mr. Wondering said, she will maintain her right to maintain this friendship, in all likelihood. Her desire to keep it going will tell you the pull it has on her. My H or I should be more than willing to terminate any friendships that make the other spouse uncomfortable, for the sake of our M and family.

Our culture doesn't tell people that, it tells you that it's great to have friends of both genders in high school, college, and then at work and church, and maintain those old relationships is okay, and if your spouse doesn't like it they are a controlling, borderline abusive, freak. Thus the adultery rate in our culture is sky high.

Your W would have to ask herself, and you ask yourself, is this relationship/friendship she is maintaining strengthening your marriage or weakening it? Does it bring you closer or create distance? And I don't mean that he's giving her great ideas for flashing you in public... I mean how is this R with OM making you FEEL about your W? More loving toward her, more emotionally safe, more intimate, more willing to take care of her and meet her needs and allow her to do the same for you? Or is it making you feel emotionally distant from her, betrayed, lied to, hurt, emotionally unsafe and guarded, and shutting your feelings down to guard your heart?

I know you don't want to bring the sky crashing down on your M, but better now then later. This is NOT okay.

NTL

Bottomline is....she is having this relationship in secret and actively deleting the history so you don't find out. This is unhealthy for your marriage. End it now! You don't have to mention the keylogger and can maintain that to ensure it is ended just say you saw it on the history.

Another woman here...

I think what she's doing is totally wrong, and the fact that she's actively hiding it from you is telling.

Good luck to you. I hope you can nip this in the bud.

phoenix_

another woman here... I'd say its leading right up to an ea/pa... been there. Sorry.

Another woman here saying that it is cheating. I think it is Dr Phil that says "If you wouldn't do it with your spouse beside you-than it is cheating"

Hi scarne...another female here with a different perspective on things.

This may be a long reply but hopefully one that may help you.

I, too was an online "chatter/player/cyber-sexer" before I was married and some afterward.

I would be more concerned if your wife were discussing sexual acts she wanted to do with HIM! The best way that I can explain this, in my own words, is like this...

The reason I chatted online was because I could be whoever and whatever I wanted to be. I wanted to be a desirable sex-kitten! That was before I was married. This is jumbled but bear with me!

I made a lot of "friends" in cyberspace. Most were just like me, my age, similar interests, etc. It was all so fascinating and exciting to me! I have maintained just one relationship with a "friend" and yes, he is a male. We flirted around online, talked sexually but never had cybersex, etc. He was married and had kids. He's still married. We still talk occasionally - he knows I'm married now with kids. We talk about other things, some mild joking of a sexual nature but have never crossed any line.

My husband knows of this person, he knows we talk (maybe once every couple of months). It's not that I'm trying to be secretive or anything with him but sometimes, things are meant to be private. I know that I will probably never meet this friend face-to-face, nor do I have any real desire to. That would kind of destroy the "relationship" we've had for almost 10 years. That sounds strange, I know.

I wouldn't say that your wife is technically doing anything wrong...maybe it would help if you did ask her about it and see if she tells you anything. If it bothers you, then you need to tell her!! She needs to know your fears and if there's truly nothing really going on, she will tell you what you need to know (or verify what you do know). I wouldn't tell her about the keylogger right away.

I don't know if anything I've said makes sense or will help but I suppose I can understand your wife's actions. I don't think you really have anything to worry about - both know of each other's spouses, both say they love their spouses, etc. I guess my opinion would be different had that not been said.

Take care and hope I've helped??

Scarne,
Have you read the other new thread here, with the poll? Very similar situation.

I firmly disagree with KikiCheriOH that your wife isn't technically doing anything wrong. Playing with fire when you are married is wrong. Yeah, nothing MIGHT happen, but it's just as likely or more that it will. And it brings a lot of pain. Getting your EN's met elsewhere is dangerous.

Here is another woman...whose H did something very similar.

Although my H's A was with a coworker...it was basically an internet affair that turned physical. Had I caught his emails in the early stage, I too would have only seen what you saw...sexual overtones, but not blatant sex talk. Then it went to her being blatantly sexual, but him not really reciprocating.....then guess what...the physical came. You do not need to worry about that happening as quickly b/c of the distance, but it can be done.

The main point is, that he talked to this woman everyday only during work for a couple of months. 90% of the time it was innocent fun, the other 10% sexual overtones. Not even actually talking about sex...just flirting. He did not share this with me. He told me about her and explained she was a friend, but not disclose how often he talked to her and ANY of the flirting that was going on. She was engaged and was a VERY religious person...was not concerned and completely trusted my H to hold the boundries...and you know what, my H completely trusted himself to be able to hold those boundries too. He thought he could handle this. He justified it as talking to any friend he had...even when it started to happen after work. But, by the fact that he did not tell me(b/c he knew what I would say) made it wrong from the very beginning.

You say you are not worried, but a completely nonworried person does not put a keylogger on his computer. You know something is not right, and if you are feeling this...well, then that tells you if it is an affair. If it is a secret relationship that you find out about and are uncomfortable with...affair! Confront your wife now. Get the book, Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Leave it around the house if your wife will not admit to anything. It is an eyeopener.

Please, take our words to heart. I know that many of us on this site wish that we would have found out as early as you have and were able to stop what happened in the end. We might not all be experts in recovery, but we have all been forced into the role of expert when it comes to sniffing out affairs. Heed the warnings.

Best of luck.

True

A FWS here....My relationship with OM started just like your wife's. Om and I were friends - we flirted big time and advised eachother on spicing up eachother's love lives with our spouses...and shared our dreams, fantasies...till one day - we ralized we were feeling something for eachother...and the online became romantic, until one day we met in person again and it became a PA...

end it now. If she is getting advice from a man who she flirts with sexual inuendos (sp?) then more than likely - it wont be long untl she realizes she is "in love" with him.

If she is willing to have you be privy to all her converssations and get to know this man too - then it's one thing - but if she is hiding and deleting...then something is not right.

Thank you all for taking the time from your day to reply with your opinions. I can assure you all that I appreciate your advice.

First I would like to clear just a few things here if I may. This sexual advice they gave one another was simply a one-time thing (flashing) and the sex talk is flirty for sure but not what I would call xxx-rated. They do very little chatting about their SO and when they do they write about ‘us’ they write good things not bad.

To date there has been no real threat of online masturbation or any discussion of meeting in real life and again I’m not trying to defend her but it is somewhat innocent to a degree. All they really do is chat about poker but like I said that chat is laced with sexual overtones and some flirting.

I did tell her I read the MSN history and I know she chats with ‘Bobby’ and I told her that this was inappropriate. I did not tell her that I have installed a keylogger on the computer. She came back with “I was only “talking s*h*i*t” and claims that this is nothing more than goofing off while playing poker.

KikiCheriOH made some comments that my wife also made. My wife is board and is using poker as an escape. As far as secrecy is concerned, clearly I think she didn’t want me to know about this for no other reason than she wouldn’t want me doing it but in her defense she answered all my questions correctly that I knew answers to. I told her that I knew she turned the history off on MSN and to me she was hiding all this.

She agreed (admitted) that she crossed the line a bit and would quit with the sex chat but did not say she would stop chatting with him nor did I demand that she do so. She knows that I know that she is doing this but she doesn’t suspect she is currently being logged.

Demanding that she stop is not the answer. I talk and work with women everyday and I too tease and flirt a little but it is all in fun and it’s an issue of trust. I can also understand where most of you are coming from saying that this will lead to no good. Deep down I think you may be correct but right now there is no solid reason to over-react and the keylogger will do one of two things in the coming weeks. One, it will tell me that this is indeed innocent or it will show that there is reason to be concerned.

I will admit that if this issue was brought to me by a friend who was having these concerns, I too would say that she is about to raise this to the next level.

Okay, Scarne. You are making me sad. It is no fun living through an affair. If I had to do it over, I would have raise holy he[[ to stop the budding EA. Have you read Surviving An Affair? I think you have not, because if you do read the first few chapters you will see how an "innocent friendship" suddenly turns into romantic love.

Your W and this OM are filling each other's love banks, right to the top. They will overflow, this triggers those feelings of "love" - by the time your keylogger sees them professing their feelings for each other IT WILL BE TOO LATE. What are you waiting for?????

All it takes for an A to start in such a situation is one of the two involved people confesses their attraction/feelings of affection/care/love for the other. Boom. Affair.

Don't you see they are setting the stage and you are letting them because you don't want to "over-react"? I'm not trying to beat up on you, I'm trying to save you a ton of heartache.

You are rationalizing the severity of her behavior. I know, I did it too. I know you think we're all probably just jaded from being burned by our WS's affairs. That may be true, but it's a lot of experience talking here too.

You did not demand that she stop chatting with him... well, if on your key logger he makes a sexual innuendo and your wife firmly asks him to stop those types of comments, then maybe I'll reconsider. But if she lets it slide...? Or worse yet, continues to flirt back?

So you don't want to demand that she stop, because you don't want to have to stop either? That philosophy got my H & I into a lot of debt and trouble!

If it was innocent, and you two had your marital boundaries where they need to be, and her emotional needs were not being met by "Bobby" then I believe she would OFFER to quit talking with him online.

Best of luck, ...
Shaking my head...

NTL

Post deleted by scarne

She stopped. I want to fill those emotional needs that he is giving her but I don’t know what the attraction was that won her over so easily.

I also might add that I’m pissed off. Not raged or anything, just mad. Hard to buy flowers when you’re mad. Ya know what I mean.

I dont trust her anymore.

Welcome to the rollercoaster of emotions! It is not a fun ride and I suggest that you buckle up b/c it will get bumpy! I have been riding it for 10 months...can hardly believe that my emotions fluctulate so much every day....not telling this to scare you, but just as a FYI about how long it could take.

You should not trust her; she needs to earn that back. You SHOULD NOT tell her that you have a keylogger on the computer, but ask that she give you all of her passwords to email accounts and maybe even cell phone bills. Explain that you are willing to do the same(except where keylogger info might be) and that this will help show you that she loves you and is truly yours and yours alone. She will probably be insulted(we all like our privacy), but it goes a long way to restore trust. She also might feel tempted to talk to this man, and might go through some sadness in losing a friend....but ask her to call or email you instead. Be open and let her talk to you about her sadness...even if it hurts like ******. Be there for her whenever she needs you...and let her be there for you. She needs to know the damage that she did to your relationship by this friendship...I wish that I would have had this chance. She might not believe that she has done anything wrong....when she is ready...bring her here or have her read some of the information out there on EAs.

Most importantly(this has helped me immensely) ACT like you love her and FILL those emotional needs even when you feel like you can't. Do not be a doormat...I am not one of those brave people on here that could do Plan A when the WS does not act accordingly...but ACT before you FEEL! I know this works...I did it. Unfortunately, it was what also worked in my H's A. He acted like he loved the OW so she would give him what he wanted...but in the end started feeling that way too. I figure if it worked for him where there were really no feelings of love....then it could work for me where those feelings still linger. It has..and most of the time, I love him more than ever.

Anyway, take care!

True

Another woman chiming in here.

My affair started EXACTLY as you are describing. Playing cards and chatting. Then I started getting jealous if "my" guy was playing with someone else...I wanted all of his attention.

I initially had good things to say about my marriage and family. Then when my feelings were developing stronger for him I began viewing my life negatively and portraying bad things about my H. Pretty soon I had him convinced that we were virtually separated but living together for the kids sake.

Wasn't long before we met in person. The feelings intensified. Pretty soon I was ready to give up everything to be with him.

Ugh. Stop it now if you can!

How?