We're about an inch from D, but it seems like we may be backing away from the brink a bit.

Now starting Recovery - I think. WW is pleasant & cheerful, and says "I'll do anything to get us back together". And I think I'm ready to get us back together as well. First thing I'd like to do is to discuss and explore her A - something we haven't been able to do to date.

Problem: yday WW came home from her weekly IC with her 2nd consecutive bad case of 'boundary-itis'. IC is a big proponent of the boundary approach, but I can't help but thank that either he is teaching it wrong, or WW is misapplying it. Yday the result was WW saying "w/r/t/ discussing my A, this is my boundary, how is how it is going to be", then laid out a bunch of nonnegotiable ground rules that aren't acceptable to me, and won't allow for as complete a discussion of the A as I would like.

One of the big things I would like is to see some real remorse from WW. And a belligerent boundary mentality seems to be the opposite of that. Big problem for me. Does it signify she's not really ready to start recovery yet?

[ More background: last week her boundary-itis came through as "Here's my boundary, I'm taking the kids at spring break to X, and that's how it's going to be, I don't care about your opinion on the subject, you can come or not, but the kids and I are going. Period." ]

The boundary thing, as (mis?)applied by WW, seems to me to be the complete opposite of POJA. Take it or leave it, as opposed to the POJA approach of negotiating until enthusiastic agreement by both parties. Can someone please help me understand how to work with WW in her current mentality? Or what to do?

Anyway her boundary approach is really in the way right now, and threatens to slow down our recovery, or maybe even keep it from starting. Very dangerous time right now to be making a bunch of ultimatums.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance for your help.

wnh, This is hard isn't it?

Your FWW boundary approach seems to reflect more of a demand that boundary. She is defenitely not applying the POJA.

As for remorse, from what I have read don't expect that for a while, maybe even a long while. It will come eventually, but don't push it right now.

Sorry I can't give you more adivce since I almost in a similar position to you, but I'm sure some of the vets will help out.

Have you read the One Year Recovery Primer? It may help you understand the recovery process.

Your doing great!

Those are selfish demands, not "boundaries." Why not give her the article about lovebusters? And then suggest she find a MC that is not worthless?

Your W should not be the one to set the "boundaries" about what you are allowed to know about her affair. Since you are her victim, you should be the one to determine those standards, as you are better equipped to understand what it will take to rebuild trust. As long as has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy, recovery will never take place.

Have you considered contacting a PRO-marriage MC that that is not worthless? [as is your W's MC] Steve Harley is actually PRO-MARRIAGE and would help your marriage instead of harm it. He is worth every penny.

Uh... the IC might be an idiot. I would talk to him/her about what he believes in/thinks.

Your WW is TOTALLY misapplying boundaries. She needs a crash course on what a selfish demand is.(lucky for you the definition is on the site around here somewhere.)

She is loaded with guilt and shame, probably, and talking about the A is something that makes her feel bad. It is, however, required for your healing if you say it is.

She is using boundaries to protect herself. Boundaries are to protect the marriage... not just one player in it.

A WW that makes ultimatums? what a crock of sh*t. Anyway, someone needs to find you Joshua's letter and you need to read it to her. She will have to face this. She can not use 'boundaries' as a shield.

p.s. your W is using the excuse that you "control her" to justify her affair. This stupid MC is helping her in this rationalization. This little diversion only helps her avoid the real consequences of her actions and instead changes her into your victim instead of the other way around. Do you see the game being played here? With the help of this useless MC?

Thx htw, Mel and patriot. On another thread believer warned that the boundaries concept is difficult for beginners; and that people who try to apply it in our current sitch aren't likely to be successful.

Anyway I understand those are demands not boundaries. I would love it if WW would either dump her boundaries approach (since it's not likely to help our M right now the way she's misapplying it), or alternatively if WW were able to make the distinction between demands and boundaries. Any other suggestions on how to get those to happen?

WW surprised me by saying she would be willing to do a MB weekend. So MB counseling may be a possibility as well. Will discuss with her tomorrow. Maybe she would consider switching away from her IC and into MB counseling?

wnh, if you will set up a session with Steve Harley, he will help bring your wife into it. He has some pretty good approaches.

WNH

As you've said yourself, it's not necessarily the case that the IC is misrepresenting boundaries, but that your wife is interpreting the concept to suit herself. It's hard to judge when you're not in the room listening. Let's give the IC the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps it would be useful to get very clear in your own mind what the definition of boundaries is, and then sit down with your wife to analyse her interpretation. It's pretty hard to defend warped thinking if you get right into the logic of it. If she gets defensive or aggressive, you know that you've hit a nerve.

The average WS has spent such a long time working off wonky logic, it must be hard to get it straightened out.

TA

I would seriously suggest to your wife that you need to start some MC...she can continue her IC if she chooses to, but the two of you need to be working on your M now too...and it needs to be someone who is clearly PRO-marriage. If not SH, then find someone who uses similar approaches to dealing and healing from infidelity.

If she's open to the idea of MC, then start sharing the MB information you've got here with her. Start with the LB, and then the EN's and POJA...at least that's my thought, but the experts here that have used this to recover their own marriages may have some better ideas.

Thx Mel TA and Owl. TA I'd love to be able to understand and show to WW the difference between what she's doing and using the boundaries concept correctly. But frankly I don't understand the usefulness of that concept. Bought the book, discussed with IC, discussed here. Despite the best efforts of some very smart and benevolent MBers, I still don't get it.

To me all these are very similar: ultimatums, coercions, demands, . . . and boundaries. I don't see that any of them have much place in a functioning marriage. To me they are all pretty much in your face, no compromise, no searching for mutually beneficial outcomes, no finding common ground, etc. Seems to me they are bound to breed resentment, and should only be used in a M on the rarest of occasions e.g. when all else fails.

Anyway this probably isn't the time for WW or I to learn or teach boundaries or how to apply them properly. So I'd prefer to just try to agree with WW to dump that whole approach and try something more likely to succeed. Like POJA.

The ideas of a new MC or using MB counseling may work. Thx.

I think the IC (Individual Counselor) is doing exactly what he/she is being paid to do, and that is to protect her client. That is the problem with IC sometimes, the best approach for helping an individual is often the worst possible behavior to help recover a marriage.

The setting of individual boundaries will help protect your wife from discussing issues that make her feel uncomfortable. In this sense, her drawing of boundaries is exactly what an IC should suggest. The problem is, that if she does this, you will have a very difficult time processing her affair.

A successful result from IC is to have a mentally healthy patient, sadly, said patient often ends up a divorcee. I think it is emotionally an "easier" path to sever a mucked-up relationship than it is to successfully revive it. This is why I think so man IC guide patients away from conflict, and thus, to divorce. Do what makes you happy regardless of how it affect others. Somehow, this doesn’t seem to be a very companionate outcome.

edited to add . . .

I think that boundaries are personal integrity issues. A possible boundary is not engaging in certain sexual practices that one is morally against. This isn't POJAable. It is a taboo. It just simply not open to discussion. One for me, and this isn't a moral issue but a sanity issue, would be NEVER allowing my MIL to live with us . . . under any circumstances. Again, it isn't open to discussion. If MIL moved in, I would move out.

Well, boundaries are very important to a marriage...this was a major issue for my wife and I in our recovery.

But what WE talked about as boundaries were something totally different. Our discussion on boundaries was mostly centered around keeping OTHER PEOPLE outside of the area that should be considered 'marriage only' territory. You know, don't share relationship problems with others, etc...

Our counselor also discussed the boundaries thing in a way similar to what her IC did...but with totally different methods.

He noted that boundaries need to be NEGOTIATED...and that the way that you do this is to identify three 'zones'...what your 'ideal' situation would be, what you can 'live with', and what is 'unacceptable'. And that she should do the same thing...and then the two of you bring those three zones to the negotiations and use that to reach an agreement that you both can work with. Not quite POJA, but a method for settling issues nonetheless.

What your wife needs to be reminded of is that there is a difference between 'personal' boundaries, and 'marital' boundaries. She's making 'marital' choices without involving you. Not acceptable in ANY marriage...much less one that is struggling to recover from infidelity. I suggest that you ask your wife to see if you can come to her next IC session, or that she schedule a seperate session with her IC for the both of you...tell her that you're NOT going to ask her IC for any information...simply work with your IC to help identify the best methods for rebuilding your marriage and to help your wife.

If the IC is a whacko, then negotiate with your wife to get a new one...

Just my thoughts.

Owl I wish our counselor would preach boundaries that way. Sounds much MUCH more useful. But he doesn't. I think it would be difficult for me to suggest a different interpretation of boundaries. May be worth a try though.


Comfy that sets off a lightbulb for me. IC occasionally mentions who is the client - sometimes it's WW, sometimes myself, sometimes joint. Seems possible that he's looking after the client du jour. If we were to go back to him for joint MC his approach might change. I guess I could call him to ask that Q.

[ Edited to add: On second thought I don't think that's it; even when I was in IC with him, he mentioned I should expect WW to be much more assertive if we suceed at keeping our M intact ]

He's not a whacko. So maybe it's the "protect today's client" issue. Another thought I'd had was that maybe MC wants to prolong the conflict and enhance his revenues. But I don't think this MC would do that.

There's a large church nearby which has a marital recovery group. Probably not all the participating couples are infidelity cases. Group is led by a nonprofessional, I think. What do you all think of the idea of sitting in on such a group?

Maybe you should ask for a special session with IC to confirm what the IC is teaching as boundaries.

Not to "tattle" on your W, but rather so you can be sure you understand what boundaries are.

Basically, how I see boundaries is what are you willing to do or not willing to do.

So if your WW said, I'm willing to take a trip this weekend, but not during the week, that is a healthy boundary.

In fact, she has the right to say, I am not willing to talk about the affair. Doesn't mean that is the best way to solve the issues, but that would be a valid boundary.

When she says, I'm going to go to XYZ with the kids, that's not a boundary because now it involves taking something from someone else, in this case the kids. You have just as much right and should have just as much say in what the kids are doing as she does.

As someone said, this sort of statement is a selfish demand.

I don't agree with owl that we necessarily should negotiate our boundaries, or at least those cases should be the minority. Because if you establish a history of changing boundaries, then the other party will have a hard time respecting them because they know they can change them through negotiation.

If I set the boundary that I will not be married to an unfaithful partner, I really don't want someone saying, awww, can't we have one mulligan?

If they want to give you one mulligan, fine, but if I've set that boundary at, if you are unfaithful I will end the relationship, then please, respect my boundary.

In the context of how to keep others out of the most intimate parts of our marriage, I believe we can negotiate on what we agree to be our marital boundaries.

However, personal boundaries shouldn't be negotiated, in my opinion.

T

IMPO, I think that your wife indeed does have the wrong idea about boundaries. I am not sure that there are very many personal boundaries that are the right fit for a good marriage. The idea behind M is that two become one. Radical Honesty and POJA promote the idea that in order to have a fulfilling relationship both P have to be able to communicate honestly and openly (RH) and to compromise on what is acceptable in their R (POJA). I believe that allowing a spouse to not have to communicate especially about the A and calling that a boundary is definately not conducive to rebuilding the marriage. An appropriate personal boundary might be " I will not give you the details of my A if those details are only intended to give you ammunition to hurt me with later rather than to allow you to understand me better, why I made the wrong choices that I did, and what we can do together in order to ensure that that environment is never created in our marriage again."

I am however I huge believer in marital boundaries. Most of these are a result of POJA. Example, it is inappropriate for either of us to discuss anything with someone of the opposite sex which we would not openly discuss with our spouse sitting right next to us. There are some boundaries that are created only as a result of the affair. I believe the BS has the right to chose whatever boundaries are necessary in order for them to be able to regain trust and function in their marriage. Because they are a direct result of the A and are only needed to avoid a sitch that could result in another inappropriate relationship, the BS in my opinion has the right to lay these out. The WS gave up their right to have those boundaries agreed upon when they made choices that violated boundaries that should have been understood but were never formalized. As an example, my boundary is that my wife cannot travel to the event where the A started by herself. This happens to be an event where we both frequently go (as well as OM) and we used to go seperately sometimes if the other S could not attend. No more. Even though I know that there is no chance that the A could be rekindled or happen with someone else at this event, she gave up the right to go there without me by chosing to have an inappropriate R with someone else when I was there many years ago.

I look at marital boundaries as a fence. We have created those boundaries in order to protect what is inside the fence, my W and myself. I like the other analogy that there are different levels of boundaries. We probably have three different fences in our marriage, all of different heights. The interior fence has a lock on it that only my wife and I have the key to. The others are more easily penetrated but if they get too close to our main fence, we both defend our marriage at whatever costs. The important thing is that the fence (boundary) is protecting both of us at the same time. It is not a wall between us that protects one spouse from the other. That is where I think the problem with your W's boundaries are. She was the WS. She is going to have to learn to understand that because of the choices that she made, she will give up some of her individual rights. But if you both make the committment to work on things that help the M, instead of good for one spouse but bad for the other, the resulting R will be more fulfilling for both of you.

OK with some work WW seems to have toned down her danged 'boundary' outlook, at least w/r/t/ our upcoming R talk.

Re: that upcoming talk, WW has agreed to be open and honest w/r/t her A. But we'll see how it works out really. Anyway I'm ready and willing to hear the 100% brutal truth. It could be really painful; I'm fully expecting her to say it was a PA - to date she's always said it was purely EA.

This is a bit optimistic, but anyway I hope we can leave the boundaries stuff in the rear-view mirror; if I had my way it would never rear its ugly ugly head again. I'm sure it's good stuff, but for tense situations like ours it seems poorly-suited.

WW also suggested and I've agreed to join a church group MC. At the very least I hope it will get her out of that danged 'boundaries' misapplied mentality. No matter how bad the group counseling is, we could hardly do worse than where she is now with IC. The group isn't used to infidelity; I hope we can fit in reasonably well.

Hit a sports bar tonight with a couple of pals and had a few brews. Good fun, and there were lots of available cuties. My buddy wants me to join Match.com and meet some. No fears, I have no intention of doing it.

Things can change in a day. I was out with son tonight; got back an hour ago (about 8:30) and found vomit around the house and W sleeping it off. I assume she had a few drinks after work.

A little later, a neighbor dropped by to return some of WW's things she'd found on the street in a pool of vomit; apparently WW lost her stuff (and her cookies) while walking home from the train (3 blocks). Really glad she made it home okay. Could be even dangerous if it were a cold night or if she'd gotten off at the wrong train stop in a bad neighborhood.

Two big things:

1. In her purse was the note she'd written for her IC to read and edit and suggest changes. It details what she was ready to tell me about her A. Half-dozen oral sex acts with OM and mutual masturbation but no intercourse. Or so it says. There was never any intention for she or OM to leave their spouses, it was purely sexual. So it says.

2: Also in her stuff was an unopened bottle of vaginal contraceptive foam. I've had a vasectomy. Not that it matters, but we haven't been together since August.


Wow. #1 I could stand. I still expect there was intercourse. Could be she will eventually admit it. Either way, given time and lots of effort on both our parts, I can probably get over the A - assuming it is over (now deeply in question).

But #2! She's apparently looking for some action now! Either the A has resumed or never ceased, or she's just on the prowl.

Apparently she's really messed up right now. Excessive drinking, looking for sex, etc. And until tonight I thought she was coping alright and we were about ready to start recovery.

I have no idea what to do. What do I do? How can I help her?

I want to treat her kindly, she's a lost soul. Certainly I don't want to be hateful. But the foam could mean the end of our M.

wnh, I don't think its kind at all to help her hide from the consequences of her actions. She is your wife and she needs help getting out of the filthy ****** hole into which she has crawled. She is drowning here and needs a hand out. You are her husband, the only one she has to help her.

I think the best thing you can do is confront her with this first thing in the morning when she is most hungover and most disgusted with herself. Self loathing and disgust are powerful motivators for change. Tell her you love her, and because you love her cannot bear to see her drag herself down to such disgusting lows.

Tell her you know, and the neighbors know, that she got pig drunk and puked all the way home. Don't condemn her, just very firmly, but lovingly give her the facts. Tell her you have the vaginal cream and ask for an explanation. Tell her how you love her too much to sit by and watch her destroy herself like this and that you will get her help.

That would be an act of love, wnh. To pretend that your own W is not drowning is not love. It's not love to be dishonest about what you feel. Your revulsion shouldn't be hidden for any reason.

Does she have a drinking problem or is she just trying to drown her conscience?

I agree with Melody, and also think she has a drinking problem. I don't remember the last time I saw a 45 year old married woman out in the street vomiting.

Sheesh, I didn't even do that in my wildest drinking days.

I hope you will lovingly confront her early tomorrow.

WNH,
You are married. Why are you checking out the "available cuties" at a bar and why is your friend trying to sign you up at Match.com? I don't want to be judgemental but I can't help but wonder how many affairs started this way. As a matter of fact so many say "I never meant for it to happen, it just happened so fast, things got out of hand," etc. etc. I want to smack your friend. I would be so angry and crushed if I knew that while I trusted my husband to go out and enjoy a beer with his friend at a sports bar, the friend was encouraging him to cheat on me. Also, by you checking out the "available cuties" you may be signaling him that you want to cheat. Please think long and hard and don't just get caught up in the moment. You know the saying, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."