Mimi,

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
During PLAN B, the OP will feel confident and show the REAL SELF-with LBing and DEMANDS-while your WS has SPECIAL MEMORIES OF YOU....
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PLAN Bers are counting on this, and sometimes, it is why we would like to know how WH and OW are doing now that BS is out of the picture. I know I would!

On the other hand, as part of PLAN B, a BS is to 'remove' oneself from the triangle and stop focusing on WH, A, and OW, and not be aware of what is going on.

I wonder if a BS would be better off 'thinking' that things are working out between WH and OW and that H is nowhere to be found, so that a BS can really focus on life without H, because the 'hope' that things aren't working out between WH and OW, I feel, can hold 'back' a BS from really making efforts to move on/focus on oneself.

Because as a PLAN Ber, I am looking for signs. To 'move on' or 'not to move on', that is the question.

That's why I consider PLAN B a really 'limbo' stage, for better or for worse.

I guess that's why life is a 'process' and PLAN B, particuarly, is a definite a process. Is the end of PLAN B when a BS is really really ready to move on and let go of idea that H will ever 'show up' again, or decide to ACT as if he will never 'show up' again? (Even if WS may eventually show up, but BS has stopped waiting, no longer wants to wait, and left - now, that would be too bad!)

As a BS in PLAN B, these are some of the things I am asking myself.

At some point, is it the BS that puts an end to the 'hoping' of recovering M by simply 'deciding' to put a stop to it. If I base my decision on WH's current actions, there is no hope. The hope is linked to the future: will WH one day (soon or never?) come to his senses?

That's why some people/friends, by only considering the WS's actions now, think it's crazy to 'hope' and would like us to waste the least amount of time 'hoping' for a 'hopeless'case in their eyes.

PLAN B is not easy, but liveable. It's the last effort/plan available to a BS who wants/hopes to still recover M. After that, all that's left is a BS deciding to move on with life without H in it. PLAN B is like being in the middle of 'turning a page'.

Sorry for 'rambling on'. It's just weird 'hoping' for someone to come back into your life that right now has NO INTEREST in doing so (in fact, is totally interested in someone else!), and carrying on as if person won't.

Luna,

I agree with everything you say except that I would add that you have knowledge about what happens in affairs and that is why you hold on. It's the same when you get a disease: take for example having hepatitis. During the illness you may feel terrible, and if nobody knew what it's natural history is, maybe people would be tempted to burn you on a stake because you have become a yellow lethargic zombie! But since everyone NOW knows that after a month or maybe a little longer you will be the same old you again, (just more rested), they put their relationship with you on hold: you get sick leave from your job, you're not invited to parties etc until you are well again.

It's difficult to actually believe what they say about affairs "natural history" because we just don't see that many up close, or follow their development knowing all the details. But the things I have read on this website and many others and other stuff, plus the life stories we read here and the ones each of us has heard of actually do point to the fact that Dr. Harley is probably right.

Personally I had heard of 2 As just before my d day and both had ended with exposure. I didn't know it then and I was wondering why someone who leaves their family to be with an ex married BF would not have a relationship that ended up "happily ever after" . But after reading here I realized that it was a typical A.

There will always be individual differences and maybe there are 3 or 4 kinds of As according to their "natural histories": the ones that end immediately eveen without the BS having found out (wonder how many there are of these?), the ones that end immediately on exposure, the ones that take a little time to end (with plan A) and the ones that take a little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />(months?) longer. And you will probably have that small percentage that never end.

Dr. Harleys interpretation of human relationships during an A makes a lot of sense, and therefore his whole theory of the "natural history" of an affair makes sense. We have heard confirmations again and again on these boards. Therefore plan B is a way to BETTER survive the waiting period.

It is also a choice.

As Aphelion suggests in another thread, you could choose mandatory divorce when the marriage contract is broken by infidelity. We'd have to see what the re-marriage rate is in those cases.

and how well both the BS and the WS come out of the whole ordeal.

We have read many times how the WS regrets his actions sometimes years later. Personally I haven't read about any WS who defends his actions years later, but that may be because they don't come on these boards.

We could try to find out...

I haven't found much scientific literature on the subject of infidelity. That is also true. I was rather surprised.

So far this is my humble understanding of things...

Mimi,
Congratulations on your continued recovery. You sound very happy and content. I am sooo happy for you!

A few comments from another FBW...I agree with all of your highlighted points ESPECIALLY "VIEW YOUR WS as being DRUG ADDICTED" and
"HE HAD TO HIT BOTTOM"

My FWXH acted EXACTLY as you describe yours, he was horrible!! That is why it is so extremely important to try to protect yourself from it and to keep the disrespectful comments about your WS or someone elses WS out of the picture!! I see so many posters who call not only their own but others'WS's "scumbags", idiots, etc. This can be extremely difficult to overcome should reconciliation become possible.
And as we have seen reconciliation IS POSSIBLE even when the situation seems horrendous and hopeless! I have seen folk here tell a BS to ditch the "scumbags" when a situation looks horrendous, when in actuality it is no worse than mine was! And now we are together and happy!

So please resist the temptation to talk disrespectfully to anyone about your WS. I am not proud of some of the things I said about him....I loved him but I was in soo much pain!

I have been fortunate that my friends who never knew my WH before the A but listened to all the horror stories, have put aside their judgements of him and accepted him for the man he is NOW!

However, my family has not been as forgiving and so
contact with them is minimal.

"HE HAD TO HIT BOTTOM" YES! YES! YES!!!!!
It took 2 looong years for this to finally happen. Unfortunately we were divorced by then! WH was particulary stubborn and he admits that now. I had argued, lectured, wrote letters, etc. and WH was bound and determined to prove me wrong!!!! Despite that fact that the A was loosing it's luster, he hung on.....scared, stubborn, proud, you name it!

DUKHUNTR!! Yes! It is possible to reconcile successfully after a Divorce! That is what happened in my case and also in "HOPEFULPERSON"'s.

Mimi, thanks for hanging around and helping out here. I wish I had the energy for it! We go way back, I remember the pain, the hope, and now celebrate with you the success!

Shugah,

I had hoped to hear from someone like you. Two years later? How did you cope for that long without losing all love and respect for him? Or did you start over from scratch? I'd love to hear you story in detail because I really do still love my EX, I just could not morally stand by and hear about their R on a weekly basis knowing we were still married. Did you have a thread going when all of this was going on I could read?

It would mean the world to me to hear this from you if you are willing to relive it to me.

Thanks

I would also like to hear all about recovery after D.

I don't think my WH will hit rock bottom and do much self-discovery until a D. Even after D he may not but it is the only chance I see right now for him to hit rock bottom. It has been 2 1/2 years and I know he has hit it yet.

I lived my life as though he were not coming back. I spent time healing. That is why I was in good shape to make the decisions I did when he finally hit bottom.

I tried to be the "lighthouse"...there's a thread about that here somewhere? Maybe someone can find it.

For now, you can start with my story.....it's no different than most here....filled with the unbelievable....the drama...the absurdity....but most of all....HOPE!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=21&vc=1

I'm not sure I know how to link?

Here's some older stuff back when I was "learnin"!!

whew, been a while since I"ve read this stuff....not easy...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=11&vc=1

Luna:

You were speaking of the mindset during PLAN B...

You made reference to this that I said:



In this post, I was trying to help PLAN Aers focus on creating SPECIAL MEMORIES...

I'm beginning to see MBers as a package including both PLAN A and PLAN B in most cases...so PLAN A is a preparation for PLAN B...

In looking back the mindset that I found most helpful during PLAN B was to try to PRETEND THAT MY WH NO LONGER EXISTED... I tried to shake thoughts of him completely out of my head. I don't think that I was highly successful at this but when I was able to do this I functioned a lot better....

I tell you what. My assumptions about what was happening were completely off target.

I think that, if you are doing an EFFECTIVE PLAN B, there is no way that you can know what is happening. That is great for you because you are able to hold onto the love that you have left for your WS...

That is the goal..to lock the love you have left away for safekeeping...

So I would say... DO NOT LOOK FOR SIGNS...DO NOT LOOK FOR ANYTHING...FOCUS ONLY ON YOURSELF....

I think it is reality to assume that the affair will eventually end. Statistics support the failure of these relationships. The question is whether or not the BS will want to reconcile by that time...

You know how I feel about HOPE..

NEVER GIVE UP HOPE..IF NOT FOR THE MARRIAGE... HOPE FOR YOUR OWN HAPPINESS...

SHUGAH!!

How wonderful to hear from you again!!

You certainly are a testimony to this..

I wish you had opportunity to continue to SHOUT THIS OUT to many here who feel HOPELESS...



I feel sometimes that I am the LONE WOLF in saying this...

Most importantly, I am so HAPPY FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY...

I hope that your children are doing well, too. I remember how they struggled...

I'm changing the name of the thread so that you can post with me if and when you have the opportunity...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

Thanks for addressing my post.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
.....if you are doing an EFFECTIVE PLAN B, there is no way that you can know what is happening. That is great for you because you are able to hold onto the love that you have left for your WS...
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I guess my PLAN B is effective in that sense, because I have no idea what WH is doing, thinking, feeling, and believe me, it's not because I don't have 'my sources' which are literally at my fingertips. I am actually quite amazed at myself because it is really hard to resist sometimes.

Based on how things are right now and on what WH has said to me, I would have thought that our M had no hope for the future. The only thing that is giving me HOPE are stories like yours, and Mortarman, and others. I will read Shugah's threads also for encouragement.

In the meantime, in PLAN B I have no choice but to focus on myself, and I am actually beginning to really like it!

I was really "crushed" by D-day and WH's choice to leave the M.

I think one of my qualities is to make the best of a bad situation, which seemed to have temporarily disappeared, and now I am seeing it coming back. I am glad. There maybe others who had been buried deep under the grief of D-day. PLAN B gives them the 'space' to come out.

Mimi, thanks for being there.

Shugah and Mimi,

Thank you for being so positive. I want to keep my hopes alive and it is difficult to do so without hearing of some sucess somewhere. I have been trying to keep away from her and not communicate but it is so hard with kids involved, even my grown children. Something always pops up and we end up talking.

Once the talking starts anything can and has happened. I do fine until she starts rationaliziing to me her indescretions. The last e-mail we shared she actually suggested I would have done the same things she did if I were in her shoes. This was right after wishing me a happy birthday. Not what you want to hear in the same e-mail as happy birthday. I ended up verbaly bashing her OM and it doesn't help our situation at all to do this.

I love your ideas about shifting all of your focus to yourself and your own life. If you really can do this you can keep the positive memories alive and stop building a negative mindset concerning the WS. How else will you ever be emotionally available to them if they decide that the path they have chosen to explore is not the right one for them and that you are.

DUK:

Are you using one of the MB PLANS? A or B?

Mimi,

I see by your signature that your FWH's A was long term also. How long did it last. Did you, like me also suspect something, but choose to believe his lies? Did you think you were going crazy and did you feel guilty for being suspicious? During that time before D-day, I would get so angry at his disrespectful treatment of me .... lots of angry outbursts and some disrespectful judgments. I hope that my H is left with good memories of our marriage pre-A and of some good memories during Plan A.

Mimi,
Thanks for your well wishes...I will try to post here with you...hearing success stories is important, I know it was for me!
The kids are doing well. My now 14 yr. S, is much better! Being a typical teen! Sometimes a pain in the butt but still a sweetie! 18S is still home and finding a way to peacefully coexist with his father. He still has to find a way to work on his anger issues, it has affected his health in the long run, but his current treatment seems to be helping! Oldest S still out on his own, learning life the hard way....but what can you do? 6D is a peach as always and obviously thrilled to be her Daddy's girl on a daily basis!!

Dukhntr...you are right on with "Once the talking starts anything can and has happened."

The anger, pleading, arguing takes over....no matter what our initial intention of the communication. Once you've reached this place it's probably time for Plan B.

I was notorious for trying to argue with WH about what he was feeling. Always trying to argue you him out of his feelings....it was not productive at all!

lunamare...Plan B is tough, no doubt...as you will see from my threads I found it extremely difficult. Although one can never be certain how things would have turned out if I had stuck to it....I do believe that WH may not have felt so compelled to fight me and prove me wrong if I had just left him to sit with the crushing results of his choices...he's stubborn, I'm stubborn....in a way neither one of us was will to concede....

I could have used more of that energy on my own healing. I still got there, but man, it was a slow process!

DUK,

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I have been trying to keep away from her and not communicate but it is so hard with kids involved, even my grown children. Something always pops up and we end up talking.
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What plan are you on?

quote:----------------------------------------------------
Once the talking starts...I do fine until she starts rationaliziing to me her indescretions...I ended up verbaly bashing her OM.
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That's what a WS does: want to rationalize their behaviour...that's why if A is still on, no R talk or chances are high that BS will do lovebusting...

quote:-------------------------------------------------
I love your ideas about shifting all of your focus to yourself and your own life.
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...and what exactly is stopping you from doing this? Because, it's the only thing you can really control!

Mimi, Luna and Shugah,

I am on plan B as much as I hate it and find it difficult to keep to. I have been divorced since June, and all of the LB's had already been delivered to and registered by her before I found MB. I did all of the pleading, begging, etc that is not advised. I have been seeing a MC since D-Day with the express purpose of reconciling. He guided me thru what I recognize now as a plan A that did not work in any way shape or form. The EX is just too invested in her OM. My MC then advised me to cut all communication with her and show her what life will be without me in it. He has seen her also and believes I should let her go and let her live this life of her own until she sees the light as he calls it and comes back on her own accord. He also warned me it may never happen as well.

He has told me he does not believe any more that she is capable of making this decision any time soon. He told me to live for myself as you have said and to live well. All of this makes perfect sense to me but implementing this has been more difficult than I could ever imagine. She was my high school sweetheart and I have been with her for 28 years. I just can't seem to complete the disconnection with any conviction.

I think the hardest thing for me to accept and deal with is the OM and the situation he created. This "boy" who works with the EX is 15 years younger than her and both of them have told me it's not a "permanent thing". He was a friend of mine too and I feel betrayed by both of them. All of this has only served to make it that much harder to accept and believe it is real. Finding them together in a motel room did not help either. The anger and violence that occurred then comes back to me on a regular basis.

What is the purpose of a relationship if you know it leads to nothing? She has her children and at 46 does not want any more. He is 31 and wants a family. He is just starting a career as an architect and has much he wants to accomplish. Why start something that has no goal for the future? This has me in a constant state of denial and wonderment. Why cause all of this pain and suffering for family, friends and all who know them for what amounts to a summertime romance? Emotions and human frailty are an amazing thing.

I will be trying to keep to my plan B and to concentrate on myself and my kids. I will be looking to people like you to help me stick to this and hopefully make it work for me instead of against me. Thanks for your thoughts, they do help.

So with you all that arguing and trying to talk them out of there feelings etc. Have pleaded. Done it all and it has the opposite effect--you would think I would learn as I know it but my emotions get to rolling and it is all over.

So shugah--that is me too.

Plan B by means of D is all I can do at this point and pray that god takes this where it is suppose to go--maybe it means a D to make H hit bottom maybe not who knows.

DUK:

Did you write her a PLAN B letter?

My H's A was with a woman 17 years younger who wanted children, etc.

He now almost laughs at himself: "What was I thinking?", scratching his head...Well, we both know he was not THINKING....

I say your WW's A certainly won't last....

DARK, DARK, DARK, DOUBLE DARK, LIGHTS OUT....

But first the letter if you haven't written one.

DUK,

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I am on plan B...
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As Mimi asked, did you write a PBL to your WS?

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He told me to live for myself as you have said and to live well. All of this makes perfect sense to me but implementing this has been more difficult than I could ever imagine.
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Yes, that would be one of the biggest objectives of PLAN B, and with N/C with your WS, you'll have a lot of time on your hands to do it. Do you want the A to end sooner or later? The chances are with no contact with WS it might be sooner, contact with WS, it might be later. How about this as a motivator?

quote:----------------------------------------------------
What is the purpose of a relationship if you know it leads to nothing? She has her children and at 46 does not want any more. He is 31 and wants a family. He is just starting a career as an architect and has much he wants to accomplish. Why start something that has no goal for the future? This has me in a constant state of denial and wonderment. Why cause all of this pain and suffering for family, friends and all who know them for what amounts to a summertime romance? Emotions and human frailty are an amazing thing.
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What you are doing, my friend, is trying to apply logic to something that is illogical! You know how I can recognize it? Because I did a lot of it. Big waste of time, the sooner you realize this, the sooner you will be able to focus on a more 'productive' use of your time: you and your children, while at the same time helping to end the A sooner rather than later!

Luna and Mimi,

Yes I wrote her a plan B letter and a similar one to her parents. I did a pretty reasonable job of it too. I outlined what I felt was a path back to me and told her how much I loved her and always would. I also gave her my reasoning on the divorce she did not want.

So I will become "Darkman" and refuse to answer her e-mails about our kids who are capable of dealing with most stuff on their own. Avoid seeing her at all costs and quit worrying about her in general. I think I will have to attack this in stages. I can't see myself being able to do it all at once and be sucessful.

What in you guys experience are the signs you watch for that the winds have shifted and the fog is clearing? I'd hate to do all of this and miss a signal from her that she was interested in reconciling. If I go as dark as I am thinking it would be tough to get anything thru to me. I guess at that point you could use the kids as a conduit if necessary. I still hate using them to relay this stuff though. They have been thru enough of our garbage already.

Thanks again for all of your input, us guys are a little dense sometimes and listening has never been a strong suit for me and I admit it.