LA-It's really funny that you mentioned POJA, because about 30 mins before I read your post, I was talking to H about something and I mentioned POJA. After I read your post, I went get SAA, showed it to H and said this is what I would like to follow. He said it made since, but when I tried to apply it to the parking situation, I couldn't explain well enough that I'm not a mind reader no matter how clear the weather. No, I didn't say that!

Did you read Cinderella story in my signature line? (smuggly) I learned how to do that! Cool!

what does IMHO mean? I'm still trying to figure that one out!

Okay, now for the deeply tought out stuff! I've come to the rationalization of a few things and I would like to hear your thoughts on them, please!

1) I barely got to be a child, I was nine when tragedy hit home and I had to grow up. I had to start cooking and cleaning the house. I didn't get the opportunity to play, learn how to have fun, and open up to people in person. I would like to open up, have more fun, laugh more, etc., but how do I get there?

2) I had a trust issue as a resolute of that tragedy. I just didn't trust anyone, I was always on guard. Now that the A has occurred, I trust even few people, one my H (who I'm not resentful of anymore), and two, my neighbors (H & W, who I am resentful of, can't get over that, yet). I now understand that trust is earned. At one time, H had to have earned my trust, I'm not so concerned about him becoming trust worthy. (OOHH, he has been handing me his phone to read TM when they come in! HURRAY!)
I'm concerned about my trust issue with the neighbors, I don't want to hold a grudge, but I feel they havd no right, and she betrayed me, the only time I opened up to her. SHe runs her month to her H, he in turns runs his month to mine, misinformation, and creates a larger problem. I learned my lesson, and with friends like that, who needs enemies?

3) I have a lot of fun in college, I believe now that alot of the things that I did have was part college and definitily rebelling against my parents. ******, I was on lock down until I left for college. I had four dates in four yrs. in HS. (Okay, close your mouth! LOL) MOF, I rebelled against my parents until they where out of my life, I was like 26 or 27. I got my tongue pierced after they came to town and called and harassed me at work. My boss had to answer the phone and tell them that I had left! Just had to do something wild to release that tension! LOL

I am open to any ideas, thought, etc. on these thre things and questions about them. AM I thinking way out there, over analyzing again?

And last, I really disappointed in myself for not being able to create a safe environment for H. I did talk to him about the neighbor thing, and he didn't say anything, just listen. Of course, they betrayed me to help him!

LA-I do find that we have a lot in common! What type of work do you do, if I may ask? I would like to know a little more about you, if that's okay, outside of MBers.

IMHO - In My Humble Opinion

IMO - In my opinion

KWIM - know what I mean

Lots of those...and yeah, they stumped me, too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No, I haven't read your Cinderella story yet...I promise I will...

So you were an adult child...someone who takes on what isn't yours because it was allowed before...under tragic circumstances...all you need to do is give yourself permission to stop being a caretaker...because you can be a respecter...permissions are powerful...no little thing...I bet you care for your children the way you wanted to be cared for...and love your H in the way you want to be loved...

What if...loving them in a new way was the key to giving yourself permission to fly, which means, they get to fly, too?

Give yourself time to build REAL trust...what you had before was maybe the wishful kind? I had that after my mom died at 8...wishing felt like trust, if I did it hard enough...

Wishing to trust and trusting by choice...takes time and a lot of unravelling...

Can you trust your H to be exactly who he is, make his choices, think his thoughts, have his feelings and choose his beliefs? Can you trust that you to be and do the same? Your children?

There's no wishful in that...just an acknowledgement...before it was too fearful for you...now...try it on...see how it fits...on your adult self...

Yes, trust is earned...I believe half of it...the other half we choose to give...and choose wisely, over time and earning...however, you appreciate and see your H doing what he said he wouldn't, easing up into trust, through shame...I don't doubt that will continue...

You had trust issues long before H and others...you had pre-emptive strikes on trust...

What do you think?

I won't address your neighbors yet...I have been withholding, thinking, considering...I haven't forgotten.

I know part of that was honesty...you being honest and them being honest, in their way...not about trust...we cannot be trusted to hold bad secrets...

Look to them doing what you could not at that point...to be honest with your H and yourself...then how do they look? Like heroes, risking your wrath and rejection, or enemies, out to break you up? What was the result? How is your marriage?

Trust goes to self, too...how much you trust your self to handle stuff...if you do it through rebellion, then you're inviting self-betrayal, aren't you? We react to voices in our head, I believe, with a "See! I showed you!" and there's no one there but us...and we bear the consequences of our own rebellion...others' don't. Why get stuck in that loop?

Yes, to break our patterns with our parents, there is rebellion...for teenagers and young adults...as older adults, we get to know that facing our fears is breaking our patterns...for us. Doesn't look that different on the outside...changes everything on the inside.

Wipe your perspective clean, shine it with your power...choose not to pre-judge (prejudice) your H, his intent, his desire...listen, listen and repeat. You don't have to be perfect...can't be...neither can he...if you hear an expectation in what your H is saying, own what you hear,

"I hear you expecting me to know where you want me to park the car everyday, am I hearing you correctly?"

You might be surprised at his clarification...or not. Check first. Be open...that's the way to have fun and intimacy...to show yourself...can't be open when you're closing off from fear of blame, pressure, taking offense, or feeling pain from caretaking instead of respecting...

I think you haven't heard all the gratitude inside your H for you staying with him...I don't think you have yet heard how you delight him, your presence, your love...that he is as thrilled by you and your new MB stuff as you are with MB!

Listen for it...and listen to your own kudos, as well...and know that as a child, you didn't have a choice...what you believed was your life...as an adult, you know what you choose to believe is your life...

LA

I can't even count the number of times the phrase...I feel like I have to take care of everything...came out of my mouth in the past yrs. I did handle everything from plumbing to paying the bills, to washing clothes, batheing kids, you name it...why...because I felt I had to or it wasn't going to get done! Plain and simple. I was "wishing" someone else, namely H, would help and I resent that he didn't. Then, he would say "why didn't you ask for help?" In my eyes, I thought I had but the way I communicated it was wrong. He would ask me what did you say, then, "nope, this is what you said." I left a lot to mind reading!

So, in essence, I need not micro-manage things anymore. I can see where H would think that I wanted to control everything, because if he didn't get around to doing it within "my" time frame...I would do it and be mad that I had expected him to do it...

It seems logical to me to think that I created a dance between us (being the caretaker), not trusting him to do it on his own. So, it's safe to say that if H and I created a plan (using POJA) to divid into a sandbox for him and one for me this will free. I respect his sandbox and he respects my sandbox, I learn to trust that everything within that sandbox is taken care of and vice versa.
Same things go for the kids?

Good way to learn not to get pissed off when things aren't done my way! LOL I'd learn to respect someone else ideas, thought, feelings, without taking them personally...why because their not mine to "own"!

(I just gave myself a pat on the back for that thought!) (giggles)

Caretaker....Respecter...COOL! Learning to trust! COOL!

I have to trust myself to let others do things, instead of rushing to do them myself! That's easier said then done, but I'm going to try to kick in the @ss! LOL

We'll revisit the neighbor subject later, and how's the M?
I'm processing and have some investigating to do!

Thanks again, I hope that I understood what you were saying correctly. Oh, and the kids are spoiled, but there are sme things I would like to do differently but couldn't/wouldn't because of movitation or that's how I was raised. I figure that's why they have each other sometimes. I was raised as an only, and I didn't want them to feel lonely like I did growing up. I wanted them to have someone to play board games with or just anything.

As far H, yes, I take care of him...MOF, someone just told H yesterday "Boy, she really takes care of you!" He replied "Because I take care of her!" (I had made him a sandwich and bought it to work for morning break time before I went to work!)

LA-when you get around to reading it...do me a favor please and look for your part...just want you to know how appreciative I am for working with me, it's taught me to be humble. IMO, something I've never had before!

NC -

To answer an earlier question, I read Cinderalla to DD about a month or so ago, so I've read it recently <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Things here are...in some turmoil, but it's actually not related to the A or our R. More on that in my thread if I get to it.


Wow. Double-wow. What you wrote is so me. I still feel that way, at times. And to make it more fun, if others do what I want, then I expect them to do it the way I want it done. There's micro-management for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am slowly learning to let MP do things her way, but it's not easy. Especially when her way doesn't fit my preferred time-line.

I'll get there...eventually. Though I'm sure DD is going to get real tired real soon of hearing me say "I'm not mommy." when she says "But mommy does this or lets me do this" or whatever. Or when MP tells her "I'm not daddy." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amazing...the things I learn just by reading other people's posts. Now if I can just apply it consistently....

Okay, there's a thought, could I (we) be setting my OS up to be a caretaker of his brother or is this a normal situation?

OS is not expected to do the things that I was as a kid, but we do expect him to "take care" or "look out" for the little one. We do feel the need to teach them to be independent. For instance, we ask OS to fix YS a bowl of cereal in the morning, or watch him outside when we are inside. Just to general help him out. I fear that I'm (we're) setting him up for the role I have played. OS runs bath water for them both, that will come to an end when they get a little older. Being that I didn't have a sibling living with me growing up is it normal for one to help the other like this. I find myself telling the OS that he is not the parent of his brother sometimes that his dad and I are.

Outside of that, we ask that OS takes out the trash, pick up his clothes when I give them to him, once in a while get the clothes out of the washer and put them in the drier. They do not get left alone, with a list of things to do, and expected to have the list completed like I was. I make sure that they are well taken care of, but I'm not going to be their slave or my H's slave as the same time. We make them clean their dishes from the table. Littliest is expected to clean his plate in the garbage and put his dishes in the sink, same with oldest.

After having wrote this, I would be safe to say that I'm not (we're not), it's just teaching them how to be responsible for themselves, their messes, and their things. I (we) expect them to keep their room clean, and to help out when needed. The last thing I want is to repeat history.

Hey checking back in with you too.

I am glad LA is really helping you out.

Take a look at me I am on an infidelity site, talking about a PA wife who is a sober alcoholic.

Can I pick em or what. LOL

Looks like you are getting great advice here as well.

I like the new name.BTW.

Sounds like you are on a good road.

HL-Being that you have two boys, can you help in telling me if the what's expected of my boys is normal? Maybe some examples of normal interaction with the two of yours?

Normal is all relative.

With my boys I am the fun guy who maintains his boundries.

I play sports with the YS.
I play PS2 with the OS.
I enforce the rules but explain why.
We rough house together.
Heck if you remember took OS and 7 friends to an amusment park no problem.

What I expect from them is to act like good young men. I tell them all of the time that what I tell them now might not make sense but one day it will.

I punish them when they do wrong. I explain the further consequences if they throw a fit for the punishment.

I have never raised a hand to either one of them. They are very well behaved every where we go.

A few nights ago they strayed to far and came back late. I got worried. I explained they would get an early bedtime for that or they would come in early every day the rest of this week. They both said early bed. I said it is really not decided until you actually go to bed. If you fight about going to bed then it is in early for the rest of the week.

I expect a please and thank you from them when they want something. Not just to me but to everyone. I will not let a server take their order if they don't say please.

I think it is really about communication. I have an open line with them. It has been harder with the OS because my wife was a SAHM and never disciplined him. She would call me to do it.

Now I left it in her hands when he does something wrong when I am not around.

I think just like your FWH you need to fill their needs as well.

My two are so different that I have to do different things with them.

So again normal is relative. Find out their EN's and fill them and they will love you even more.

Try to insulate them from the stress.

I know it is vague but it is the best I can do.

I guess most importantly give them all of the love they deserve. Show them what there is such a thing as unconditional love.

Thank you very much for the information. I am the primary care giver to them. I make sure to explain things to them, but I use to yell, now I don't. I talk to them! LAst night, I got "You're the best mom ever!" We're working on being more affectionate, hugs and kisses. I kiss them everyday, but I need to get all that I can now, b/c soon enough they won't want to do it right?

My concern is that the OS will grow up feeling like the caretaker like I did. I don't want that. I would say "Insulate them, I'm their mom, for God's sake!" but I guess there's no so good moms out there. Stopping the yelling and started talking was the best thing that I've done in years. Of course, I real get aggrevated with them, but "it's go in another room, or go play."

Thinking about it, I didn't want kids at all before H and I got together. I was scared, so scared that I would do to them what was done to me. H reassured me time and time again, that I wouldn't do that, and by my senior yr in college, we had agreed to start trying after I graduated. I feel great about being a mom today, right now, this moment! They are awesome kids, well behaved, and smart! Even though I don't wait on them hand and foot, and I'm tough with them sometimes, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I have noticed that H is sort with them lately, not sure what's going on with that.

I guess I proved to myself that my fears were unfounded!

Thanks again, HL!

Well, well, well, WH is still having contact with OW. He leaves me no choose but to go to 180 until I can figure out if I can do Plan B. Most important find a place to stay. I left a note on his lunch box said he could go to lunch with OW, not to call or talk to me...that he never ended contact. Right now, I'm in the spare room with door locked. I'm sure he will blow a seal in the morning. I do plan to expose at convenient store and work now. I missed the oportunity the first time, and I will be letting everyone else know again as well.

I'm thinking hard about leaving for the weekend and going to stay at my dad's, three hours away. The boys may be staying at the sitter's tomorrow night, because of date night, if that's the case I'm going to try to find a friend's to stay at.

I've been a little suspious the past few days, he's been irritable, snapping at the kids, and something just didn't feel right. I got the new cell bill tonight, 4 TMs, and I'm sure they have been using call block for the phone calls. I also checked his cell phone, and her number was back in there. Remind you I deleted it the weekend of the kid's b-day party, June 24th, I think. This time it was under "K" instead of "C". I deleted it again. I also went through his wallet, and the piece of paper with her address that use to be in the truck, was in there now. I wrote on it "what's this for?" and put it with his money, so that he would know I saw it!

I was really angry a little while ago, but I'm calmer now that I'm forming a plan of action. I think I've been doing one he)) of a Plan A, meeting his needs, we bought his dream bike, and I've really been working on myself. I'm not going to let his choices ruin my state of mind, the way I feel about myself, or change my mind about what I need to do next.

Clearly, a NC letter will have to be wrote, approved by me, signed by him, and mailed by me. I guess he thought he was being slick, well, if you wait long enough they hang themselves. I'm not even sorry that I have to take this path, one that I could not have done before now. I wasn't strong enough, well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you because I am prepared for a battle now.

Looks like that little raise might come in handy! I'm sure that was my message from God, saying you will be alright. Before I was scared, to scared to leave, to scared to think, to scared to do anything...

THE TABLES HAVE TURNED!

Thank you good people, I will update soon! You are all wonderful for the support and advice that you have provided! I'm open to any suggestions, in case I missed something. I'll be printing cell pone records tomorrow, I still have my paper trail, in case it ends up with D.

It feels good to think with your head and not with your heart!

Okay, I called the shoprite and talked to the manage. I'm not friends with her but we know each other. I also called a co-worker of his(just got off the phone with him), see H's been lying about going to C. I knew this and I asked for his help, say he would help any way that he could. He was shocked because H always talks highly of me and the kids. Said that H said he couldn't have found anyone better than me.

I hate going though this second round of exposer, especially with hearing things like that. There may be some consequences for OW now that the workers at the store know. You know, I head it through the grape vine, sort of thing. The manager even said "yeah, the bus driver lady!" I would have to say we were in false recovery!

I've got plans to call a few more co-worker or maybe their wives, but I don't want to bother them at work, and I need to gather my strenght. It took everything I had to make the calls this morning, and I've tries to sleep but I've been up since one.

Words of encouragement are greatly needed, to help keep my courage up, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hey, no crying this time! Kudos to me! Kudos for the phone calls and kudos for the courage I've had so far. I've got alot going for me, but I think I just messed up H getting off early to spend QT together. The only reason he was getting off early was b/c we were suppose to be going to C. I got snapped at by H for letting him know that it was a lie. He said "you've said that three times."

Well, I'm going to make the most of the day and check back in with you guys in a few hours!

{{{{Rinderella}}}} hang in there.

Thanks, FLT2H! I appreciate the hugs!

Okay, he's pissed! But if I want to save my M this is what I have to do. He just came to work and took my computer! Asked why I was being that way, I said b/c you made me that why. He's going to have to deal with the consequences of his actions. I would be surprised if he finds my thread and reads it!

Rin,

Ouch...

You are being brave and courageous...you are not being made to do anything...you are choosing to enforce your boundary...which was, "If you choose to contact OW, then I will choose separation."

Now, you can't talk in PLan B, if that's what you're going to do...you write the letter...you get the third party on board and he moves out.

Is that what you want to do? Because 180 isn't a boundary enforcement, in my mind...

Progressive boundary enforcements...first, your honesty statements...

Speak what you feel and think...this is like DDay all over again, if it is...what that feels like...how it affects you, and that you recognize you cannot control his choices, only your own.

Identify your emotions first...really know them...what's behind them...

A way back...no contact letter, changing cell number, transparency with phone, and MC...

Stick with no LBs...because that's not who you are. Do not repeat yourself, because you listen and hear yourself the first time. You can do this...you are doing this...

Tell me what you choose...and this is why it is good to know your boundary enforcements ahead of time. Set them in place so that when you feel the air leave your lungs from the sucker punch feeling, you know your next step and the next, because they are predetermined...when you had air to breathe.

(((((Rin))))))

LA

I'm not hurt like I was 1st d-day. I'm so disappointed, I want to work things out, he's a good man for the more part. I love him very much, but I will not have to look over my shoulder for the rest of my life dealing with lies of omission, not knowing whether I can trust him or not. I want contact to end, period. I want to enforce my boundaries, and be the doormat. If 180 doesn't do that, then it's not an option.

H will not move out, this is fact! So, what other options do I have?

I was mad (angry) this morning, but it didn't last long. Now, I'm frustrated that all of my Plan A efforts seem for nothing, except for the work that I've done on myself.

I am hurt, but the pain is not there like it was. I feel pretty clear headed, not thinking with my heart.

So, where do I go from here to make my M work?

Hi Rinderella!

Like the new callname! It seems like we are drifting along the same path and timeline. My H has recently told me (with the dead eyes- you know em!) that he is not happy, that he CANNOT be happy, and he doesn't like me (sounds a bit foggy to me). I have asked him to move out and he complied. Now, I'm stuck with figuring out what I'm going to do, to protect myself and my family. I have decided that we will have minimal contact (for financial reasons or for visitation with DS). I'm going to do for myself, really, this time. I'm going to clear out my basement and get my gym equipment together and enjoy it again. I'm going to spend gobs of time with my son, and my friends. Beyond that, I'm going to find a course of action. I want my M, but not with deceit and the pain he doles out. My threads up, if you want to send messages and I'll keep watching yours, for tips and such. Take care of you,

Temp

"Now, I'm frustrated that all of my Plan A efforts seem for nothing, except for the work that I've done on myself."

You had an expectation behind your Plan A...and it proved to not be reasonable. That's not a bad thing...learning your beliefs is a powerful thing...don't you think?

Things you can do:

Separate your finances

Find out your legal rights

Find out all your state has in regards to filing on grounds for divorce, civil action for alienation of affection...the whole slew...knowledge...gaining knowledge...calmly...

Know inside and out of yourself, state as you need to..."Contact continues the affair." No other words.

Consider selling/returning the motorcycle...tell him that you agreed to adding this marital asset under false information. You would not have agreed to the purchase knowing he was still having an affair.

Be exceedingly respectful and truthful...do not react automatically with withdrawal or repetition...breathe, breathe, breathe...

This is all part of saving your marriage...you can't MAKE it work...you can do your part.

Listen and repeat, hand back all his words with choice and detachment.

Consider not judging him a good man or not...deserving of you or not...he's human, he is making his choices and you are making your own...you choose to love this man...not his actions...if you can't comprehend his choice for choosing OW over his family, tell him. "I cannot concieve of your choice to exchange your family for your affair partner."

What is your truth, know it and state it. Own it. Figure it out...know what you can't understand so that you don't DJ...justify...self-deceive with...

Lay out visitation schedule with the children...show him how your idea on how to make separation work...

Do you think I'm ignoring that he won't move out? His choice. Legally, you have options. Truthfully, you can state, "When you choose your OW over your family and then remain in this house, I feel used, last place and deep anger." If you do, state it...simple and direct. "I feel like a failure and I know I am not one."

"I know I cannot control your choices. I know I did not earn this pain, which feels like punishment. I know you're choosing your life."

You tell me what you think the 180 is...is it like these options...showing yourself how well you can take care of yourself? That enforcing your boundaries is self-care and not an ultimatum?

Be authentic and sincere...to yourself and to WH...I'm so sorry to remove that F...my heart hurts for his destructive choices. Your pain moved down...anger soothes pain...know this, Rin...be honest with yourself. Feel what you feel, now what you think and believe.

That's your assignment. We're here for you.

LA

Thank you Temp, I'm not sure what to do right now. I also can't deal with the deceit and pain. My M means so much to me, I want my kids to grow up in their FOO. I'm thinking of writing a letter, not plan b. He thinks I'm playing games with him.

He texted me this morning with a few times, and he just texted me this:"whatever u want, however, whenever, I give up, ur not going to be happy until it's all ur way, so here it is." I wrote back: "K, we'll talk. This is not a game to 2 win. I won't tolerate deceit. U have to want this just as much as I do! or it won't work."

He's not ready! And I'm not willing to do another false recovery. How should I handle this? I will enfocus NC letter, transparency, & O & H. What else do I need to make this work? uuhhh?

I'm lost! HELP!

He says that I'm being deceitful by checking his cell phone. I understand what he's trying to do, he's trying to remove the attention from what he's done to me. Can I say that I'm entitled to check his phone records, if there's reason? He texted me back "Deceit well, that road runs to ways. I've waiting (?) on today to see how long it was gonna go." This is all about the cell phone bill!

I'm ready to pull my hair out!

"Asked why I was being that way, I said b/c you made me that why."

Rinderella - I quoted this one. Use what LA gave you or the statement thing you liked so much. The page with the 6 things to say to your S.

I feel angry, hurt, humiliated when you lie, and decieve.

You know darn well he can't make you anyway. I know you were hurt so sometimes we don't handle things perfectly. I would have crawled up into the fetal position for a while and cried. Then dropped some LB's so who the heck am I to say. LOL.

"whatever u want, however, whenever, I give up, ur not going to be happy until it's all ur way, so here it is."

Good for you on your response. I feel ..... when you .....

If you can tell me a way to be happy with this situation I will gladly discuss it with you. Maybe a little POJA.

I would suggest an open M and see how he reacts. So there are some websites I can go to and meet other men. If the only way for you to feel happy is to be with me and another woman I will certainly consider the open M situation. I don't want that but if that is the only way for you to be happy let me think about it. Is that what you are asking for? I mean if the problem is it has to be my way then I will consider yours. Might even ask him to take a picture of you on the digital camera in some sexy stuff so you have a good picture to post.

I know it sounds harsh but when my FWW told me things that were a clear line of BS I would do this. Oh so it is no big deal when you.... well I have a trip coming up so if I have the opportunity to ... you won't get mad right? That usually changed things up a little.

Now this is really just in regards to his statement about you wanting things your way. I do not suggest or advocate really doing it. It is a way to try to shed some light on how ridiculous his statement really was/is!!!

You hang in there. YOU ARE A WONDERFUL PERSON AND ALMOST ANY SANE LOVING MAN WOULD SEE THAT!!!!!