I feel like such a freakin' failure now after reading these posts. Like I didn't do one thing right. I wish someone could tell me, flat out, what I should have done different I guess?

Was I suppose to confront and be mean about it?

I confronted, exposed it, and said it hurt me greatly and that it was wrong. I also said I was disrespected not only by her but also those involved in the "knowing" of it.

I'm sorry, I guess I just have stupid written all over me. My brain just hurts.

No Paul... not stupid... wounded.

What you did wrong was that you let her talk and explain anything. You should have presented your facts... as facts... and not let her sway the conversation one bit away from fact.
Fact is that which corresponds to the truth. Well the truth is... no one makes the statemenst that she did unless they are involved in an A.
What do you suspect she was talking to her friend about when she said "I hope he doesn't know..." She's been screwing around and now she thinks she got away with it. She has YOU feeling bad for over assuming.. she played the typical WW card by putting YOU on the defensive. Your letting her get away with it is your only fault here.
Give yourself a break... but learn... and toughen up NOW Paul. Not tomorrow. Use your anger to fuel your responses. You obviously have some event in your life that makes you equate being firm and strong with being mean... it is not. Screwing around behind your partners back is mean and deserves a very strong and controlled response.

I DID confront her on that saying..."I hope he doesn't know anything". This was right after her weekend trip with her ex-bf and his family. She told me she said that because she knew that if I knew about that trip, I would get the wrong idea about it. She said, very up frontly and directly with me that they didn't even sleep in the same cabin.

As far as being called being a "punk" or an "[censored]", it was out of her own frustration with me being frustrated on the phone and not knowing why. She cried and apologized for that and said, you know how I talk when I get mad. You also know how I really feel for you and I was wrong for saying that, I admit it.

It is true that her and her ex-bf have been very good friends ever since high school, during our marriage, etc. I was even friends with him and he is always around my wife's parents house with her brother and other friends. I'm not maikng excuses here, just stating the facts. It isn't like he just popped into the scene.

What she did was still not right and I let her know that.

I don't see how I really let her get away with it being that she left in tears and I didn't try to apologize, call her, or anything after she left. I was still firm, but wasn't mean by any means.

Okay Paul. I don't really know what else to say to you. Been in your shoes... lived with the same denial...allowed myself to be dragged down the same lie filled path... we have all seen it on these boards... your story, her denials are nothing new. She is good at what she does.
I will just take leave from this at this point and wish you well.

So what do I do now? I thought about sending her an email that goes like this...
---------------------------------------------
(Wife),

I'm glad you listened to what I had to say tonight. It was important for me to get it off my chest and out in the open. I'm still very, very hurt that you were/are involved with (ex) during this time. I still feel disrespected and an emotional affair is still an affair. Plain and simple. I hope someday you will see through the fog and understand why it is so hurtful to me...especially when I've seen the proof like when one of your friends say..."I doubt he knows anything because he doesn't know our friends". What an insult that is to me. That is so obvious that something is being hidden for a reason.

I wish things didn't have to be this way (wife), but I didn't choose it or create it. I made my mistakes in our marriage and took full account for them and even was willing to work at it. But still, no matter what I did does not give reason to go off and have an emotional affair. It may not seem like that to you really, but that is what it is.
---------------------------------------------

hmm, not sure this is the right tone, I would suggest more matter of fact, like;

(Wife),

I think that we were both frustrated during our talk tonight. I want to make certain that you understand how your actions make me feel. I feel that you have not honored our marriage or myself be your actions, words and thoughts. This has hurt me more than I can convey to you right now. Some of what I read, such as "I doubt he knows anything because he doesn't know our friends", is insulting and demeaning towards me. I don't understand how you got to the point where it is okay to treat me the way that you have, but it is not okay.

I made mistakes in our marriage, and took responsibility for them and have been working on improving. Nothing I have done justifies your going outside the marriage for emotional affair. I will not accept the responsibility for your actions, only my own.

I don't know if you'll read all the way through this, but if you have, I appreciate it.

Paul

It seems like your still trying to convince her she was in an EA. Just assume she is, don't try to defend why you think that way.

Good luck and keep asking for advice. Remember, you won't always like it, but our intent is good!

Paul, Paul, Paul....

To do it right this time is to call her up, tell her you know she was gaslighting you last night and you know she is physically involved with the XBF. When she denies just tell her you weren't born yesterday. When she demands to know how you are "so sure" just say, "because I know."

Been there, done that have not just the T-shirt, but the entire wardrobe. My XH denied his A countless times - even to the point of having his OW call me and tell me they weren't involved. After 2 years of it, he left me and our then 2 year old son to live with her, in her house, in another country - I have seen a video of them doing the nasty - now how much more real can it get?

Regards,

BB

Paul...

I didn't forget about you, I just really wanted to think before I chose to post to you...

Here is what you must decide...Is Paul going to use "Plan Paul", or is Paul ready to listen and use "Plan Marriage Builders"...I understand that that is a leap of faith...you haven't know MB nearly as long as you've known Paul...Believe me, I mean you no disrespect when I say this, but Paul does NOT have nearly as much experience in dealing with infidelity as does MB...Now, it is true, none of us are professionals advising you here, but all of us that have posted to you have actually "been there, done that", many of us have either recovered our marriages or personally recovered using MB principles...The school of hard knocks combined with the application and understanding of the tenets of MB are powerful teachers, you can be sure...But you have to decide...

Will you listen to logic, reason and experience or will you instead choose only to be led by your own inexperienced emotional rollercoaster? Clearly, you are the only one that can decide that...As I told you before, don't beat yourself up over mistakes-Hey, that's what we are for-lol-we only do that, because we care enough to tell you the truth about a situation that you can't see objectively right now...You will make mistakes, accept that, and understand that they can be overcome...Should you choose "Plan MB", let's make a deal, I'll try not to faint when you make mistakes, and you try not to beat yourself up and NO MATTER WHAT, ABSOLUTELY NO "Goodbye Cruel Forum" posts, fair enough?

Please let us know what you decide...


Mrs. W

P.S. I hope that you haven't sent her an email...Please, before you decide to send ANYTHING, post it here for critique first-that was a good thing to do, btw...if you didn't wait, relax, we can overcome mistakes, remember? As a general rule, I would usually advise against sending anything but a VERY concise, clipped email...NO FEELINGS...JUST FACTS...Less room for ridicule from the infidels...

P.P.S. Paul, do you know if your wife had a sexual relationship with OM back when they dated?


P.P.P.S. Here's a little pros and cons list for you...



The differences between the "People Here" and "Paul's Heart"...


Ppl Here...Been There, Done That, THE WHOLE NINE, etc...

Paul's Heart...First time outta the gate...


Ppl Here...Fully understand what leading with your heart gets you...Instead the ppl here are giving advice based on logic, reason, experience and knowledge of MB Principles...CAN BE OBJECTIVE...

Paul's Heart...leading with "feelings"...CANNOT BE OBJECTIVE or lead with logic, reason and experience...


Ppl Here...Recognize a Wayward Aliens and Recognize, Understand, and Can Interpret "Fogese"

Paul's Heart...Believes what it "sees" and "feels"-doesn't understand the WS alien abduction theory...Doesn't speak or understand fogese...never even heard of it, in fact...


Ppl Here...KNOW that Paul's WW's AFFAIR is NOT Unique...KNOW that ALL affairs are COOKIE CUTTER with few minor detail differences...

Paul's Heart...FEELS that his entire situation is unique and that all of us are, in fact, "jaded" by our own life experiences with infidelity...Which DO NOT apply to him...



Place your bets folks..."People Here" or "Paul's Heart"? FWIW, my money is on the "People Here"...and I'm goin' shoppin'...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Paul, I can tell by the way that you post that you are an intelligent man...ready to place your bet? When you are, Bookie's o'er yonder, around Back...Ante Up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There is one line you didn't confront on her on that was said by her friend and that kinda went something like this "I can't wait till you guys are able to come out of the closet."

That pretty much would have changed everything to "it is an emotional affair no question about it"

Here it is in case you want to see the actual quote... Paul... I missed this the first time around. Brother... you have been duped beyond words... now is the time to stop this cycle of abuse your WW is running. YOU need to take the reins of this situation and control your own destiny. She is disrespecting you in the worst of all possible ways. At the very least... don't lay there and take it.

Ok, what I'm going to say is probably going to upset many of you but here it goes. I will just be honest.

1. I did confront my wife on the EA and she did confess to it. As far as it being physical, she denied that...and I can't accuse her of it if I don't have REAL proof of them getting physical.

2. I told her although it was an EA, it was just as bad as a physical affair and it was not only hurtful and disrespectful to me, but an insult to me. I was lied to.

3. At this point, I know this marriage is over. I felt in my heart when she left during the separation over 4 months ago that it was over. Just a gut feeling.

4. I confronted, she admitted. Maybe I didn't get all the details, but I don't need to know them. WHY do I need to continue to beat a dead horse on this?

I feel relieved for what I said to her. I know she was/is upset and that is ok. Reality of what she has done and seeing and hearing what I had to say will affect her. I have no doubt...I know my wife more than anyone here.

But at this particular point, why continue to battle? I said I was hurt, disrespected, lied to, name called, etc. I told her what I knew and how it hurt me. For me, that is what I needed and wanted to do...to get it off my chest once and for all.

I need to move on with my life. Plain and simple. At this point really, she can do whatever she wants. Sure, it is hard for me, but that is the reality of it. She will have to live with what she has done and as God as her witness. I've said what I needed to say to her, and enough is enough.
I do feel the weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

Alright, so there it is. I'm sure almost all of you will think I'm crazy and weak, so be it. I still respect all of you, I hope you can do the same towards me.

Nope, that is the strongest post I have seen from you yet.
I wish you luck in your new life and pray your divorce goes smoothly.
That we all see her words as proof and you do not really doesn't matter now that you have made the decision to move on with your life without your wife. You have made that decision and cannot be faulted for it one bit.
I sincerely wish you well.

Paul...I assure you that when you finally accept that your wife has slept with another man while married to you and that it caused your divorce you will be in even more pain....

Proof...Are you kidding me...I never met you or your wife and I am certain your wife has had physical relations with this man....why?? Because your story is no different than the 1,000's I have read here that is why.

However, this is your call, your decision and I , unlike your wife will respect that decision. I wish you luck....

For the record....I found out about my wife's affair 4 months after we got divorced.... and I dam n near killed myself....and I also assure you that you will heal much better KNOWING

Paul..

You still around. I kinda have a plan but I need the answers to a couple questions.

Is the primary marital asset your home???

How much equity is there to be divided???

Did her divorce petition seek any of your retirement savings, if any???

If you are sitting on a good chunk on change to be divided you may consider hiring a private investigator to get the goods on the affair. It could be money well spent. If the house is pretty much the only asset I'd suggest having a meeting with her, outside legal representation, and offer her a certified check for half of the 50% of her equity (i.e. - 25% of the actual equity) in exchange for her signing a quitclaim deed giving title to the entire house. You must have the deed prepared and ready to go (you may need an notary public also). Of course, you don't threaten, you just inform her that you hired a PI and have pictures and evidence that you'd prefer to keep private and not involve the courts with....the implication being...she gets an easy, quiet divorce, she can take the money TODAY instead of waiting 6 months or year dealing with YOU and the COURTS....IF she just signs off on the house...TODAY.

If you are at all interested in this kind of "fairness" then lets discuss further. I know you like to avoid conflict; however, this plan would enable you to avoid being devastated financial where you have already been devastated emotionally. Technically, if our judicial system cared more about marriages like they should...she should HAVE TO walk away with zilch. You didn't betray her, you didn't ask for this...Don't allow her to take advantage of you finacially as well. Utilize her fear of exposure and illusion of "legitimately" running off into the sunset with OM to your advantage. Addicted Waywards make stupid decisions in furtherance of their primary addiction.

Further...getting a PI may help in court anyway. Many states DO consider "adultery" when the judge makes their decision regarding the division of marital assets. For example, in Michigan the law appears completely nuetral but there IS an unwritten practice of penalizing the Wayward Spouse 5% on the property division.

Protect yourself and your money....hire a PI or investigate her yourself.

Good luck to you,
Mr. Wondering

p.s.- further...any debt she's accumulated, even if JOINT, can or may be allocated to HER if you can prove she spent it in furtherance of an affair.

The thing is, I just can't ASSUME and confront my wife about sleeping with her ex. I simply don't have the proof so I can't accuse her of it. I think that is only common sense.

Now the possiblity that it has happened I know is very high. But without proof, I just can't go there.

In the 5 years I've known my wife, she has always been honest and upfront with me. True, her communication was not good and she is also a "people pleaser" and one that doesn't want to hurt anyone. But I have NEVER caught her in a lie or been deceived by her. I'm not saying she is perfect, but those are just more facts.

I confronted, she admitted to AT LEAST the EA, and denied any physical involvement. I told her my pain, my frustrations, and how it was wrong.

Sure, I would be better of knowing if they have slept together. It wouldn't surprise me. But I SIMPLY don't know and have no proof.

I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to find out more, more, more. I just need to accept the fact that what has been done is done. They will most likely end up together and I have no control over that...but at least I exposed it as much as I could with the proof I did have.

The thing is, if the are getting together, I know the foundation can't be solid. As much as I would like to start seeing someone else right now, I know I'm not ready. But that is because I've got a lot of learning and healing to do (which I've been doing for months now).

She can run from her problems and even into the arms of another man (her ex)...but all that baggage of unresolved personal issues, not truly healing, and any guilt or lies will stick to her like honey.

I can at least move forward and know I fessed up to my mistakes in my marriage and did the right things, the hard things, instead of just throwing in the towel or jumping into temptation.

What a ride this has been. The hardest of my life so far...

Paul could you please answer my question to you which was...

Do you know if your wife had a sexual relationship with OM back when they dated?

Also, would you mind addressing Mr. W's "presentation" to you? It is something that he and I discussed, with you in mind, last night...I'm not sure if it's been said here or not, but Mr. W is an attorney (Tax-specializing in Estate Planning) and knows quite a bit regarding division of monies and property...might be useful to you...

Thanks...

Mrs. W

Sure, I will be happy to answer your questions.

Yes, she was sexually involved with her ex back in high school. In fact, I'm thinking he was her first. Pretty sure on this. She has dated several people since him even though he was still around. He has always remained a friend of hers and her family.

As far as finances, I'm lucky. We are selling the house and will split the profit. She has a lot of credit card debt she brought into the marriage and student loans. Those will be her responsibility.

As for retirement, I took out what we had and we have split that already. It wasn't much.

Other than that, we have no kids or other things that will be tough to split. It is pretty simple really.

Does that answer your questions enough?

Paul:

If you are quite sure that YOU do not want to continue this marriage, then I believe you did just fine.

You both know she was unfaithful. Her little plan to deceive you into taking the entire blame for the demise of your marriage has gone down in flames.

Move on. Get some counseling. You may not have done it perfectly by MB standards, but you did stand up for yourself. That can be the beginning of the end of your conflict avoiding. And that would be a very good thing.

All good wishes,

TruBluz

By the way Paul, the people here do respect you...that's why they have spent time, energy and emotion posting to you...What other motivation would there be? We have all experienced infidelity firsthand, trust me, no one here views this as sport. What we can plainly see, is that your wife is the one disrespecting you and it kills us...We know that it is the death of a thousand cuts...Please don't mistake 2 x 4's designed to try and help you see through the fog as disrespect from us, that simply is not what it is...

We understand that you know your wife, but what you don't seem to understand is that it is NOT your wife that you are currently dealing with...she may look like your wife, she may sound like your wife, but I can assure you that be her affair emotional or physical, she is NOT the person that you know...I look back on myself at the time that I was involved in my affair and I don't even recognize that person...NEWSFLASH: People that are involved in any kind of an affair are LIARS...YES, even your wife...YES...YES...YES...um, cheaters lie...THAT is a UNIVERSAL TRUTH!!!

Now, I realize that you don't know me from "Adam's House Cat", so you'll just have to take my FORMER WS, word...Mr. W would vouch for me on this...But I am a genuinely nice person...Grew up in a small town outside of Metro Atlanta, am a Christian, come from a good family, clean(though I am messy), intelligent, educated...all the usual bells and whistles...really, essentially a normal girl and honest, not perfect, but certainly reliable...Then came the AFFAIR-Please know, that I or anyone else that I knew for that matter would EVER have thought that I would have an extramarital affair...NO WAY...Even Mr. W will tell you that if someone had asked us between the two of us who would have been most likely to have strayed, HE would have said him...I sure would have said that...but it was ME that did...

Anyway, allow me to give you but a brief glimpse inside the mind of a wayward spouse...I warn you, it is sickening, and hard for me to tell...

When Mr. W found a hotel receipt in my bag, and bluffed that he had a PI and the PI had taken pictures...That the PI had seen the OM go into the hotel and not come out til the next morning, do you know what went on inside my WS head...NO JOKE..."Well, he didn't have a camera inside the room, so he still won't know, so I'm gonna deny it"...and DENY I did...

On our actual D-day...where it all came out...based upon, yet another wise bluff by Mr. W, who told me that he had accessed EVERY single text message between myself and OM,(he actually only had a few that he had retrieved from my phone while I was in the bathroom-WSes slip up, get brazen and careless) I still remained tight lipped, until he quoted the most damning TEXT that he could possibly have intercepted from me to OM...I cannot repeat what that text said here-it is shameful to me, OBVIOUSLY disrespectful to Mr. W(as is the entire debacle), and would probably be edited anyway...Suffice it to say, that it was "off the charts"...Guess what immediately, I mean without missing a beat, went through my idiot wayward head...NOT, "OMG, look what I've done", NOT, "I'm so sorry", NOT, "I can't believe that I've hurt my husband like this"...NOT anything nice at all...It will chill you...I had planned on going back to hometown for the summer to be with OM, so here's what I thought as I slammed back against the wall in disappointment, "CRAP, now MY summer is RUINED"...Yep, that's the God's honest truth...I WAS DESPICABLE, HORRIBLE...Paul, I was a TOTAL SLUT...Not a "HO", like we joke about on here from time to time, but the lowliest of low W H O R E...And one without a concious to speak of, at that...It was ALL about me and my addiction to the affair...I would probably have given you our only daughter to get my "fix" of OM...Of course, I shed the requisite tears and said the token, "I didn't want to hurt you"...Affairs really are that UGLY...And an Affair Addict, just like a Crack Addict will Lie, Steal and almost kill to get to their drug of choice-you haven't seen this side of your wife, because you haven't tried to get in her way...Casualties be damned if you do...It's very blunt, but it's true, and whether you choose to see this about your wife or not right now won't make it any less true...It simply is what it is...Right about now you are thinking, "well you just don't know my wife like I do, she is just not that heartless"...Yes, I do know her Paul, I've been in that gutter where she is right now...EA or PA, doesn't matter, she's an addict...I am not a unique WS, we are ALL equally horrible in our quest for our selfish desires...

Anyway, just wanted you to know...Whatever you believe, please KNOW this, your marriage is breaking up BECAUSE of your wife's AFFAIR...It isn't about anything that you did or didn't do...Sure, you contributed to the state of the marriage pre affair, but you did not cause her to CHOOSE to have an affair...It is VERY important that you honestly get that and internalize it...Her issues, not yours...You still need counseling to deal with this, really you do...and stick around here, even though you aren't choosing to try and save your marriage, much personal growth and healing can come for you in being here...I wish you well, and I mean that sincerely...

Mrs. W

P.S. I just noticed that you answered my other post before I posted this one...2 things...

1. PRIOR SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP MEANS SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP NOW...PROMISE...IT'S NOT A HUGE LEAP, AT ALL...Same deal in my affair...easy to slip back into those old roles...History + Newness + Adult Knowledge of Sex=Combustible Combo...

2. You should consider Mr. W's suggestion of buying 50% of her equity in the house...she leaves with 25%...Years from now, you would be VERY glad to know that you took a stand against this injustice...Might you entertain this idea Paul?

Thanks for the great post Mrs. W. I do appreciate it. I do know that all of you respect me and only want to help. I'm sorry if I suggested otherwise. It was just my frustration.

The thing is in your situation, it seems like your husband had more proof of a PA.

I DO NOT want to confront my wife on an "assumed" PA without proof. That is just not right or just and has no foundation.
I just can't go down that road without more proof. And I'm done seeking it out.

I think what I did was the right thing, not perfect, but the best I knew how at the time. I do think it will change the dynamics of her EA or PA. I'm not saying it will stop it by any means, but psychologically with her, I think it will have an impact.

Just because they had sex in the past does not mean they are having sex now. You do not know that, you just don't. I will agree with you that the chances are very high, but you and both just do not know.

I guess bottom line, the thing is, you can't argue or try to get at someone with mere ASSUMPTIONS even though the chances are high you might be right.

Facts. Real proof. I only had so much to go by and all it reavealed was a hidden EA which I confronted her on. Other than that, I can't take it further.

Am I making sense?

I do see a therapist by the way and he is great. I will stick with it. I want to come out stronger from all of this no matter what.