Banyak I bet you look at this thread and that was my intention.

Anyone else that is familiar with AA can also chime in especially sponsors.

So below are the twelve steps is there a timeline as a sponsor that you like to follow. Or to put it another way is if someone is stalled on a step you get concerned? I know that each individual is different so it can change depending on the situation.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

The reason I have asked is that Banyak keeps pointing to step 3 as a milestone.

My FWW completed step 1 and 2 rather quickly but has not started on step 3 yet. She has also admitted that her sponsor is getting a little pushy about her finsihing step 3.

I am a little worried because it seems like my FWW has really become quite involved in the social aspect but isn't doing the step work anymore.

What I mean is that she is going to Tea's, lunches gatherings (which I am invited to unless it is just the ladies) and I am concerned that it is becoming more about socializing then working the steps.

I of course want to give her all the time she needs to make progress in completing the steps but I also will become resentful that I am watching the kids etc while she goes to ladies Tea's but doesn't work on her steps.

Again I KNOW SHE NEEDS TO WORK THE PROGRAM HERSELF but I am a big part of giving her the time to do it.

In other words I want to be a good spouse in this but I also don't want to feel like I am being taking advantage of.

I know I can't make her or help her or any thing else when it comes to the steps. It is on her time.

Again I will watch the kids every night and do all the work in the house if she needs time to work on the steps. If she needs to go to a bookstore, library etc to work on it I am there.

She should not be slacking on her steps, however, the socializing is absolutely CRITICAL to her recovery. See, alcoholics are anti-social as a rule. They DO NOT KNOW how to socialize like normal SOBER people so they must learn how to do all this. AA socializes the member and brings them into the human race.

If you look at it like this, it might make more sense: alcoholics have a LIVING problem that resulted in their alcoholism. Notice that drinking is only mentioned in ONE STEP, all the others are focused on learning how to LIVE RIGHT.

Just know that her socializing is probably just as important as working the steps because she is LEARNING how to do it sober.

I went to my H's annual summer AA party last Saturday.

I go with him every year.

It is critical that they socialize with other sober people ... because all their old drinking buddies are like poison to their recovery.

It was fun

but

I ate too much !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Pep

I don't think there is any time line. The most important thing is not drinking while you work the steps.

"Notice that drinking is only mentioned in ONE STEP, all the others are focused on learning how to LIVE RIGHT."

Excellent point and what it's all about!

Mel,

"She should not be slacking on her steps"

What would you consider slacking? I know everyone is hesitant to answer this question. I want to make it clear I am not trying to judge my FWW I am just concerned. I am a goal oriented person and I don't want to push that onto my FWW's recovery.

I just have heard from so many that you need to work the program. I would think the steps are a very important part of that and to put that on the back burner per se makes me a little nervous.

BTW my FWW didn't really have drinking buddies per se. She drank alone and then most of the people she drank with moved away.

I like the fact that she does socialize because part of our problem pre A was that she really didn't have many friends. A lot to do with the drinking. Now she has friends and she has told me about 20 times now how she needs to do step 3 but doesn't "have time to do the work."

Again just a little heads up from your experiance's would be helpful.

H, it sounds like she IS working the program, though. It doens't mean to "work the program" necessarily to rush through the steps. She is working the program if she is staying sober and going to meetings, talking to her sponsor and socializing.

Its up to her sponsor to decide if she is slacking. But what kind of "work" is involved in doing Step 3? Step 3 is turning your life over the care of God. Takes no time at all.

So what does that mean exactly?

"no time to do the work"

TRANSLATION:

Turning my will & my life over to the care of God scares me silly!

this is a leap of trust

and it takes time

her socializing will encourage this as she relaxes a bit

be patient

take your own inventory

turn YOUR life & YOUR will over to God .... see? not so easy is it?

our pride is like a doorstop to our soul's release to freedom

Pep

"Its up to her sponsor to decide if she is slacking. But what kind of "work" is involved in doing Step 3? Step 3 is turning your life over the care of God. Takes no time at all."

Mel from my FWW's statements it seems as though her sponsor does think she is slacking. She has now cancled 3 scheduled meetings with her sponsor for step 3. She went into the room on the third canclation call because it seemed as though her sponsor was getting a little annoyed.

My FWW says she has to do some writing for step 3 before she meets with her sponsor. She did a lot of homework for steps 1 and 2.

Pep,

"turn YOUR life & YOUR will over to God .... see? not so easy is it"

I am not a religious person. Turning my life & will over to god does not necessarily align with my beliefs.

I am not judging anyone with this statement. I hope nobody does the same to me.

I have taken my own inventory though. I am pretty happy with myself as a person up to this point in my life. Of course there are things I need to change and work on.

I have made some bad moral decesions of course but in most cases I do make amends or appologize. Sometimes probably too much. LOL.

I always say it is not the mistakes that a person makes that defines them as a person. It is what they do and how they act after they make the mistakes that does that. I have always tried to do the best I can to rectify a situation after I make a mistake.

H, the fact is that you can't manage your wife's program for her. Its all well and good that we come here and talk about what she should or shouldn't do, but there is nothing any of us can to make her do her steps. That has to come from her. I wouldn't get too worried about it as long as she is going to meetings and staying sober.

Mel,

I am not trying to manage her program. I tried to make that clear.

What I am trying to find out is what a somewhat normal time frame is. If I were to do the math right now 2 steps every 6 months makes it 3 years before she finishes the 12 steps.

If that is normal great I just want to know.

I am not trying to be harsh or question the program. I just know that if I continue to make sacrafices to accomodate her working the program I would like to know she is working the program.

I don't want to talk about what she should or shoudn't do and I know that none of us can do to make her work her steps. I just know I have a lot on my plate already and I have committed to supporting her so she can work the steps not to become a social butterfly.

oh ok, I got ya, h, and understand where you are coming from. I will just emphasize what I said before and tell you that her socialization with AA members is critically important. It will even propel her into action on her steps when she sees how much farther along than she is. So, don't worry. I know it is very hard to make these sacrifices, just know it really IS important to her recovery to socialize.

My exWS socialized with his AA/NA members quite well thank you! He attended a "Club" where they held AA/NA meetings in the downstairs and had a social area upstairs for coffee, pool, dances, etc. Nice idea.

He attended meetings 5 times a week because that's what it took for him to stay clean and sober. (He'd been using for 25 years. I'd known him for 2.) It was hard at first because I felt that I had lost him to his addiction for a long time and now to his Recovery. But, I knew that there would be no "him" without Recovery, so I respected what he said he needed. He did compromise and attend some of his meetings at times I was less likely to be up or around. (early sat and sun mornings).

He slowly turned his life around by working the 12-Steps, and this amazing man appeared. We married when he was 3 years clean and sober. He redeveloped a relationship with his children from his first marriage. Maintained steady employment. Was truthful, honest and trustworthy.

About 5 years into his Recovery he said that he felt like he had missed out on his youth because of all his drinking and drugging. He wanted to spend more social time at the Club. I felt "we" could spend more social time together. Spouses were "allowed" to spend time in the social area of the Club.

He always found reasons for me not to go. "You wouldn't like the kind of people there, they're kind of rough. I don't know if I want you around them. etc." The Club was in an inner city area, but I worked near there! I told him if they were "good enough" for him I couldn't possibly see what the problem would be. He knew I wasn't some judgemental snob. I had friends and co-workers in Recovery.

Well, it turned out that some of his "socializing" involved a 21 year old Recovering female who "had nothing in life and just needed a friend." He felt that since he had a 21 year old son he could really relate to her and help her out. I do believe that that's the way it started out, but cross sex support is a big "no,no" in Recovery. 6 years into "Recovery" I found out that my 47 year old husband was having an affair with this 21 year old who was 7 months pregnant with his child. Quite the "social life" he was having!

No I don't think this happens with most people in Recovery. But, I'm much less likely to accept things in the name of "Recovery" than I used to be!

H,

I've been watching your posts, and I see you have a lot of questions...and they are valid ones.

My first sponsor suggested that in order for me to have a really solid program I should probably plan on doing a step a year. That being said, I didn't listen, and I took about a year and a half to reach step 4. Then, another 4 months to get 5, 6, & 7 done.

You're W's reluctance to do step 3 is very normal and understandable given the demented ways 'we' (alcoholics) were brought up with. Turning our will and our life over to something that we don't have a lot of faith in (in some cases) scares the he!! out of most of us. That being said, it is best for all concerned not to push.

In order for us to live a sober, clean life we have to be allowed to get there. Some move quicker than others. There is no timeline on the steps, and your W's showing reluctance by avoiding her meetings with her sponsor is a clear indication that she isn't quite ready and very normal.

As frustrating as it is, the best thing you can do for her today is allow her the time that SHE NEEDS, whether you agree with it or not, to do these steps to the best of her ability.

Picture the program like building a house. You need a strong foundation so that it can withstand all the wind and rain, snow and hail, that mother nature throws at it. Without the first 3 steps completed to your wife's satisfaction, building beyond that by jumping to the next steps too quickly could cause everything to come crashing down.

The program of recovery is an individual program based on a whole bunch of people's experience, strength, and hope. Allow her to grow on her time with gentle nudges, and at the end, the person that you're with will be more than you could have ever imagined.

272 Joe

How can I possibly resist an opening like that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


As a sponsor, there is a timeline I like to follow...THEIRS!
I know that isn't what you are looking for HL, but it's been my experience that you simply can't move someone from one step to the next until they understand the step they're on to the best of their ability at the time.

As a sponsor, I can't MAKE a sponsee(sp?) understand anything quicker than their own mind allows them to. However...if I feel they're stalling or making excuses when I feel they DO have an understanding, I can and often do pull out the 2x4 and hit them over the head with it.


I think this is a misinterpretation of something I said on RH's thread...I did qualify it there, but to save you the trouble of looking it up...

I feel EACH step is a milestone of sorts, after all, each one is life changing in it's own way. The point I was trying to make with RH is that marital work is best done after AT LEAST steps 1-3 are done. However, I strongly feel that after step 4 (followed quickly by 5, 6 & 7) is a better time to look at marital issues because the alcoholic has let go of many resentments, thus making them more willing to move forward instead of camping out in their own heads.


AA is a "fellowship" of men and women brought together by the desire to quit drinking. Please, please, PLEASE don't underestimate the power of that fellowship! I know it often looks like simple socializing, but sometimes the best meetings are the ones AFTER the meeting. Great program info comes out over those cups of tea.


Careful HL...you're falling into a nasty pattern many of us affected by alcoholism get stuck in.

When the alcoholic is drinking we find ourselves counting the number of drinks they have, we pour expensive liquor down drains, we search the house for hidden bottles...etc.
When the alcoholic enters recovery we find ourselves monitoring the progress of sobriety, counting the number of meetings attended the same way we used to count drinks, we watch for signs of slips, we walk on eggshells careful not to upset them...etc. We become as obsessed with them and their behaviors as they are with alcohol.

As someone previously stated...only the first step deals with alcohol...or from the Al-Anon perspective the alcoholic...the rest deal with learning to live.

You have been just as affected by your W's alcoholism as she has...what are you doing for YOURSELF to ensure YOUR OWN recovery?


We've talked about this one before, and you know I had similar issues. One of the things I did to help myself was let my H know I was getting resentful of his AA time away from home/responsibilities. I asked him to commit to staying at home a few hours a week with the kids while I went out and did something to recharge my batteries. That way I was better equipped to stay home while he recharged his.

HL, try to remember that the 12 steps are designed to change our focus and our way of life. If I asked you to take your focus off your wife and kids, and then asked you to become a new person (one that was innately different than who you perceive yourself to be today) how long would it take you?

I'm guessing you can't put an exact timeline on that one...any more than I can tell you how long it takes the average recovering alcoholic to complete the 12 steps.

Banyak,

No that is exactly what I was looking for. A clear answer to my question. Their timeline was that answer.

I don't mind or get worried or whatever the right word is if it is within the norm.

I do not mind the socializing because the meetings after the meetings only happen at womens meetings.

We have a clear enough boundry about that. There will never be a call from another man in the program. There will be no socializing with other men either.

I also let her know that she can stay as long after a womans meeting as she would like but if it is a mixed meeting I need her home shortly after the meeting.

No misinterpretation actually just a bad summarization.

"I strongly feel that after step 4 (followed quickly by 5, 6 & 7) is a better time to look at marital issues because the alcoholic has let go of many resentments, thus making them more willing to move forward instead of camping out in their own heads"

And yes I am getting anxious because I have waited a very long time already. We have not even begun recovery from the A because I didn't really believe recovery was possible when she wasn't sober.

I do not get resentful about the time she spends away from home for AA. I really don't it actually gives me some alone time which I like. There have been some times she has crossed my boundry in a sneaky way that I didn't appreciate though. I asked her not to attend 6am meetings because if she doesn't sleep she can't function. So if she goes to a 6am on a Saturday then the day is shot. She will circumvent that by telling the woman that asks her that she will ask me. Well at that point I don't want to be the bad guy and I say well this time yes but can you please not do it again.

There are other issues of course but since I have so many I am looking for advice on different threads. LOL

Banyak thank you for your help. Again I knew you couldn't resist.

HL,

I've been meaning to tell you...I like your new sig-line, I'm not sure how long you've had it, but it really shows how far you've come.


It's within the norm for your W...that's all that counts. If you can be ok with the waiting while she 'gets' it then all is well!

I know your W appears to be stalling right now, and she could very well be, however, she could also be having trouble with the PROCESS of the step. Much of it depends on her spiritual belief. Some have no trouble at all, and others get stuck.

For the ones that get stuck there are exercises they can work through to help...but they have to be willing to do the work.

When I'm working with someone that gets 'stuck' I break it down so it looks like this...

Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of God as we understood him.

-Made a decision-
Ok, that's easy...I make desisions all the time...this one is no different.

-turn our will and our life over-
My will? What exactly is my will? How do I turn that over?
How do I know God will do what I think is best for me? Oops..that's my will talking...ok, I have to TRUST that God will do what's best for me in my life.

-...the care of God as we understood Him'-
Do I believe in God?
Do I believe in a power...ANY power that is greater than myself?
What does my higher power look like to me?
Am I willing to place my trust in this higher power?

I'm not sure if that bit is helpful for you HL, but perhaps it can help you empathize with your wife a bit if she is having difficulty accepting this step.


This is fantastic!...and soooo important. Was that a POJA?


Fair enough.


Understandably so, but I have to agree that 'true' A recovery can't happen with an active alcoholic, and isn't likely to happen with one in early recovery. Your patience will pay off HL...just hang in there.



I hear you there...sometimes the time alone is really nice.
You're kind of between a rock and a hard place on her manipulation aren't you? She's crossing a clear boundary which shouldn't be allowed to continue, but if you put your foot down and she has a slip, it'll be because you didn't 'let' her get all the meetings she wanted.


Anytime!...nutin like boostin the ol' ego! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Banyak,

You analysis of step 3 helps and breaking it down does as well.

Here is the cause of concern. My FWW says she is turning her will over to god without doing the step.

Again as long as it takes I am somewhat fine with. However claiming to be doing it but not doing the step leads to concern on my part.

No we did not POJA on the socializing with men part. Her sponsor last time steered her towards certain meetings(mostly womens meetings) and away from other meetings(mostly rush hour). The sponsor gave her the heads up on 13 steppers. She told me this and I agreed with her sponsor.

"Your patience will pay off HL...just hang in there."
I know there is a pay off here but I don't really know if it is for me. My biggest concern as an adult child of an alcoholic is for my children. The payoff for certain will be my children will not deal with what I dealt with. My M still not make it but if I can do as much as I can to support her in her choice to remain sober then my kids will have a better mother. That is the payoff right now.

"You're kind of between a rock and a hard place on her manipulation aren't you? She's crossing a clear boundary which shouldn't be allowed to continue, but if you put your foot down and she has a slip, it'll be because you didn't 'let' her get all the meetings she wanted."

Exactly. But that is why I am also involved on the PA thread.

The other concern I have is she is starting to gravitate away from the more successful people toward the newcomers. She is now responsible for 2 other newcommers on Mondays which is the day she used to do her step work. She also has another woman call her for guidance almost everyday.

This concerns me but I can't put my finger on why.

Is it ok for me to talk to her sponsor about my concerns? or is that taboo.

Hello, I have been staying away from you thread b/c I don't really have any insight with AA, but I wanted to see how you are doing.

It's refreshing to me to see that you're in good hand with great wisedom to back that up.

Wishing you the best!

???
Turning her will over IS the step! As long as she's accomplished that it doesn't matter how she got there at this point. She'll have more 'ah-ha!' moments later on.



That's a good point HL.
Your kids may or may not deal with the things you did as a child. The difference will be the tools they'll have in their emotional 'tool kit' to deal with it.


I understand your concern here, but in all honesty, what she's doing is considered a good thing!
It's suggested in the program for newcomers to get 'active' within their groups. This helps with a sense of belonging or making us feel a 'part of'. Also, when we have a responsibility to other members we tend to be more inclined to show up and learn.

Working with other newcomers is a great way to help her solidify what she's learned thus far...what better way to learn than to teach?

As long as she still has a balance between time spent with newcomers and time spent with her sponsor or long time members all is well.


Let's just say it's not considered politicly correct. In the program it would be referred to as 'taking another person's inventory' and is generally not well received.

Remember HL, it's not your job to try and 'manage' her program...only to support her in it. She's working the best program she's capable of today...it may not be the program you'd like to see, but as long as it's keeping her sober and teaching her how to live in a healthy way, it's the one that's working for her.

Try taking the focus off her progress and put it on yourself.
You never did answer my previous question...what are you doing to ensure YOUR recovery from her alcoholism?

"You never did answer my previous question...what are you doing to ensure YOUR recovery from her alcoholism?"

Dang good question.

So far I have studied my past behavior and foucused on why I would engage in this type of relationship. AGAIN!!!!

I have realized I am a codependant enabler.

I am working on dealing with my issues in a way that does not fall into these two catagories.

*maladaptive - inability for a person to develop behaviors which get needs met.

This is where my codependancy really hits home. My behaviors do not get my needs met.

In there lies the problem right now in my M. This goes to the PA behavior though not the alcoholic behavior.

"Any time you assist/allow another person to continue in their unproductive/unhealthy/addictive behavior, whether actively or passively, you are enabling!"

Again this is another hurdle.

The more I work on my recovery the more it seems to me that my M is in big trouble. Again PA behavior.

Our M would be in a constant state of conflict if I "recover" fully. This constant state of conflict could lead to stress on FWW part and quite honestly I do not want to see where that leads. When there was no conflict it led to some pretty bad places that affected me.

But now that you have asked I guess it answers why I am a little anxious to get to the further steps.

So without putting the burden on her it seems like my recovery from this is somewhat tied into her recovery.

I don't want to be codependant nor do I want to be an enabler.

But how does one stop those distructive behaviors when the dynamic in the M almost require them for peace?

I do not want to sacrifice myself for the sake of the M.

"Your kids may or may not deal with the things you did as a child. The difference will be the tools they'll have in their emotional 'tool kit' to deal with it."

Good because that is what I have been focusing on. Last night I actually had that conversation with my OS. I told him what I am saying right now you will say to your son one day. Trust me. I am giving you what you need to be a good man one day.

Banyak thank you. I really appreciate it.

If I don't respond to something it means you answered my question.