I did read what you said to her, and I thought it was good advice.

Here is MY point...did SHE read it...I doubt it, I think she is long gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is what I am angry about. I am hurting for her and her husband, and there is great advice here, and she may not ever see it now.

You were right lol. So I have a rep?

"BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! NewBeginningII and I are FWSes!!!"

I apologize, my mistake. I am a bit sensitive about a perception I have that this is happening. I still think you were contradicting yourself, though. In my humble opinion.

I have no idea how you think anyone is contradicting themselves...

Look, bud, I've been where you are. I've been the biggest bleeding heart going... and I still am, to some extent. But one thing I truly believe now that I didn't before...

In the fog, soft voices can't be heard and quiet gestures not seen -- you need a horn and a foglight. That's just the way it is.

It's cool Ahnold...Right now, I see you as still identifying with the WS mode of thought...The FWS mode takes a while-you'll get there I'm sure...What you have to understand is the KINDEST thing that can be done here is to give Wantout the cold, hard, ugly truth about what she is contemplating...

Btw, I'm not dictating HOW you go about telling Wantout the score here...THAT is up to you, of course...

Mrs. W

And NO ONE here is responsible for what she CHOOSES to do but HER...Ya dig?

Mrs. W

Ahnold,

If she is gone, then the reason is NOT what people here have said to her. It is what they did NOT say to her, and which was that her decision to leave will hurt many people including herself.

This is a marriage building site and to date she has indicated no interest in considering her marriage. So she left. Big deal, people spent a lot of time posting to her, and she got the REAL response she should have gotten.

There is not a single poster on this thread that would not help her if she asked for it, but she asked for nothing and simply wanted approval. She did not get it, and she left.

Perhaps she will come back, but until something changes in her thinking and probably ONLY a 2x4 will get through, there is nothing here for her.

Most of the people here have consider experience in these matters and oddly enough the 2x4 is probably the ONLY thing that will get through the fog at this point.

We'll see if she comes back. If she does she will get help if she wants it. Even an oldy like WhoDat came out of lurkdom to post to her.

Please consider these things.

JL

I understand the tough love point, and accept in SOME cases it works.

I f I could figure out how, I would put that I am a FWH and a FBH in my signature. My A was two years ago. I am not looking for sympathy, I am not justifying my act, I am ashamed of it. I am enmeshed in the most amazing, wonderful, loving marriage I have ever heard of! I admitted to my affair a week ago because the deep love DW and I have for each other gave me the inner strength to do so. We are recovering.

Trust me, I do not want to "think like a WS" so please tell me why you think that?

I am not only a FWS, I am also a FBS. This lady is doing almost exactly what my DW did seven years ago, almost exactly! I know how DW would have reacted had she come here and gotten tough love...she would not have come if she didn't want help. Though I didn't know about this site way back then, I did know that my neglect of her emotional needs led to her EA. I corrected that and treated her gently. If treating others with compassion and respect makes me a bleeding heart, then I guess I am. Someone who is feeling like crap about themselves hardly needs to be reminded of it. I am not saying to tell them "there there" and consoling them, far from it. Warning them factually of the likely outcomes of their actions is sufficient, I believe.

Mrs. W, I don't know what your intent was with your "Behavior Police" post, but please take a moment and really read my response to it. You were doing exactly what you were criticizing me for, only I was stating an opinion as to how I thought some people would react, not telling people what to do! This is why I think you were contradicting yourself. Just my opinion, you have a right to yours as well.

I appreciate your insight. I agree she is in an incredible fog bank. She did ask for help though, in the last line of her first post. She asked for it again towards the end of her second post.

Edit: I apologize if I came across as blaming any of you for her leaving. That was her choice and I hope she comes back. I don't know this woman, and I was projecting how my DW would have reacted. I am not an advocate of berating people when they ask for help, which is my point.

Peace?

Ahnold,

Go to "My Home" at the top of the page... you'll see a place to edit your sig line and put in a bio, if you'd like to do that.

As far as the rest... some people are so deep in the fog and truly cannot see or hear ANYTHING. The *only* hope they have is that fog light and horn... seriously. It may make them mad, but they *hear* it.

How I wish I'd had MB when I was headed into infidel territory... not that it would have helped (like most WS's I was he11-bent on destruction)... but it might have. Hugs and platitudes would definately NOT have helped... I know this because that's what I got from my friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Understand, Ahnold?

Yeah. It worked for my wife, though. Understand?

What worked for your wife?

Treating her kindly. She was deep in her fog, and I swear, this could have been her writing this 7 years ago. I treated her with respect, starting by asking for only one thing. Open book honesty, both ways, and promising not to punish her. We started talking, she started telling me what was bothering her, I listened. Over time, we worked it out. She did not need a 2 X 4.

Of course you know that five years later, in a pit of self-pity, I committed the unthinkable with my A. There have been two fantastic years since then...yeah with a huge bump in the road with my confessing it, but confessing it made it a he** of a lot easier for us to begin healing.

Ahnold,

Before the affair.

Would hugs have worked? Or did her guilt kick in with your kindness?

And listen, I was a BS (several times over) before I cheated, thirteen years later. I get that part of it. Do you think that YOUR guilt may be playing into your feelings here?

Reality set in. She started catching the OM in lies, started realizing that he was trying to manipulate her into bed. And yes, she felt guilty eventually.

While I do feel guilty, and it may be very possible that they are heightening my emotions about all of this, particularly in this case (remember I said I was projecting), I am long an advocate of treating people decently. This is part of who I am. But I also see your point that sometimes it is necessary to cut through the fog.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to completely answer your questions. Before the fog, if I had been meeting her needs, she wouldn't have despaired and started thinking about leaving. I was fat dumb and happy letting her take care of all MY needs and was ignoring her pleas for attention to hers. I was blind to this until she woke ME up by announcing she was leaving. I quickly discovered that sometime after she announced she was leaving, she had searched for and found the OM, an old boyfriend, and was corresponding with him via email, phone calls, and one meeting in a public place.

I hacked her password and took copies of all the messages. I put a keylogger on her computer and captured much of the discourse. I know what was going on.

You know, Ahnold, people who really want help doing the RIGHT THING could not be driven off by WILD HORSES. But a person who is here only to have smoke blown up their [censored] and get a pat on the back for being cruel and destructive, will RUN the first time they hear the truth.

However, the answer is not to PLY them with cute, nice sounding words just to keep them around. But rather, the compassionate thing is to give them a well time 2x4. And usually the louder the scream the closer to the target it was. This happened to be a WS who sorely needed a 2x4. If she wants help in doing the RIGHT THING, she will be back. But if she wants encouragement and support in destroying her family, she clearly came to the wrong place.

You say you have "seen people run off" in your 2 short weeks here. Let me tell you that I have seen people's lives absolutely CHANGED from a 2x4 that they recieved in this forum. And don't imagine that it comes from some "pain" on the part of the BS', it doesn't. It comes from a desire to help the person and a reaction to the injustice.

Some folks are harsher than others. I try to never mince words. Others are softspoken and that is just fine. The forum needs both, IMO. But the bottom line is we can't dictate behavior here, unless your name happens to be Tempest, Justuss, or Sage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's what I am saying Ahnold...YOU have every right to tell Wantout that what she is doing is WRONG in the tone of your choosing...What you don't have is the right to tell others HOW to do that...Do you understand now? Tone is up to the poster ONLY...


Because you see Wantout as a VICTIM here and you are identifying with that victim...THAT is WS thinking...


Not true...WSes look EVERYWHERE for help in rationalizing their behavior...


Again, you are free to do that...Rather, you have chosen to tell folks what tone they should use in their posts...THAT is being the Behavior Police...


I'm not dictating the TONE of your posts here...I'm telling you that yours is NOT the job to police the posts of other adults for TONE...The fact that you can't see how what I'm telling you differs from what you said to others here is telling Ahnold...It is what it is-Perhaps you will understand one day soon...Relax...Listen and learn here for a while...

Mrs. W

Ahnold,

This will be my last message tonight -- but listen... a few things:

YOU have absolutely NO PART in your W's CHOICE to have an affair, just as she has NO PART in yours.

(That said, you both had a part in what caused the vulnerability of the marriage by not meeting each other's needs. Affairs are about not protecting the marriage.)

Secondly, you know as well as I do that the fog rolls in fairly early in the process of deciding to have an affair. In my case, had one of my well-meaning friends told me to pull my head out of my a$$, instead of facilitating the affair, it might have gone differently. I don't *blame* anyone but myself, but I do wish someone like me (now) would have told me what a mess it would become. That's why I tell everyone who will listen that affairs are messy, life-changing, and possibly life-destroying. Not just to the marriage, not just to the family... to YOURSELF. You are never the same person after an affair, are you?

Finally, you can treat someone very decently and still tell the truth. The truth, in the case of infidelity, is often harsh, but no more harsh than the act itself.

PS: Have you figured out how to put a sig line in your profile?

Not saying be nicey nicey. But why club someone right out of the gate before you even get a chance to see if they are receptive or not?

I believe in the 2 X 4, but not as the first approach. I use it when needed, not at the first moment of introduction. I give people a chance to listen to the facts first, treat them as I would like to be treated. If I am clubbed the first time I open my mouth, I likely won't respect your opinion much after that. Though you are right, I will hear what you said, I just won't want to deal with *you* anymore. Now, someone I know can practice tough love on me, I may not like the delivery, but I will hear the message. Later I will thank them for doing what they did to get my attention. Strangeers? Forget it. I know it's well intentioned, but coming from a stranger, I think a natural reflex is to find someone else to talk to who will tell you the same things...and not necessarily what you want to hear.

My take on this lady is different from some, I know. I am projecting, but my opinion is that she knew deep down that she was in the wrong and just needed people to tell her she was wrong...but that there could be redemption.

Since I am projecting my own feelings on this poor woman, it's probably a moot point anyway, but I have said my peace and you all have said yours. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do agree with some of yours.

I still would like to understand how my expressing my opinion made me the "Behavior Police" and am wondering why nobody else thinks that Mrs. W's message was self-contradicting? Of why it in itself was not the "Behavior Police"? Why was this deserved?

People are quick to jump on my posts and point out where they think I have it wrong. Is it because I am not trusted because I am a new member? I just want to understand. Is there a clique here? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but this is a public forum, if I am not welcome, and you do not value my participation on this board, just say the word. I thought maybe I could heal some of my own pain by helping others, but if I can't do that here, I will find another way.

I recognize that people might have thought I was blaming them for her leaving, which I didn't intend, I was only trying to point out that people looking for a safe place to talk about their problems don't expect to get blasted when they open a dialog. No blame, just an opinion.

I appreciate the discussion all. My point about emotional needs is in line with Dr. Harley's. I don't take the blame for her EA nor do I blame her for my PA. I do take responsibility for not meeting her emotional needs, however. I recognize that I played a role in it.