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Another reason to be very careful about what you say about OC. No one says anything bad about OC! This is a non-issue. FF was perfectly willing to be a loving step-mother to OC ... the OW refuses & H does not have the cajones to go to court. Your admonishment of care when speaking about OC is a moot issue. H & OW wanted to carry on as if FF and her children did not exist. OW is the unreasonable person in this circus, not FF. Why in the world would you think FF requires this caution? She does not. Pep
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Just reading the subject headline on this one made me weazy.
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if the WH is still being an affair participant...then there is NO recovery.
I believed that the question which needs to be restated in the header should be "Can a marriage really recover if there is an ongoing A" rather than "can a marriage really recovery when the A produced an OC"...
If your H is unwilling to do the real work and roll his sleeves up and man up to the responsibilities FIRST TO RECOVERING YOUR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY and then SECONDLY to legally gain leverage and clear cut boundaries so he can be a proper father to the oc as well, then there is nothing to do right now....it's basically on life support.
You can only be responsible for you and your own children. You can't make the WH do anything. They either get with the program or they do not. Simple as that.
And it's hard to think that we give up on some people. What I did? I had a definite time frame...a date on a calendar I had circled. (as per my counselor)...if he didn't stop his affairs and return home and do what was needed for recovery? Then I filed for divorce.
I might suggest the same for you. In the interim, decide which plan you're in (a or needing plan b) and then work that plan up until the deadline you create. After all you do control yourself...and you are imho, the responsible head of the household right now since the WS is still not doing what is required of him. I am sorry for his negative choices...you deserve so much better. And I pray for a positive outcome and pray this man figures it out before it is too late.
me:37 BS; s:7;
xh:38; OW:26;eloped w/OW 1 wk after D: 12/29/03. OC born 3/17/04. Happy! Blessed to be the mother of a wonderful son..great profession..Life's good!
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Wow, gone to church and lots of responses! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> If your M is to survive, imho, it will be only after total acceptance of the oc in your life. he will be there. Why have the kids ask questions? Let them know. Let your family and even the oc heal together..to heck with the ow...send her her precious god almighty check...and let her go corrupt somebody else's life...and remember...you may be the only real positive person in the life of the oc. Peachy, thanks for your input. I have right from the beginning (upon learning of the pg) been willing to accept the OC into our family. However, it is not up to me. It is up to the child's parents. OW has no desire for OC to be parented by anyone other than my and her. If my H won't take her to court, then end of story unless we D. My DD is aware of the OC. She prefers not to talk about it. At this point, unless she ask me I don't bring it up. My DS is disabled. I believe he met the OC once behind my back. I don't know how much he understands about the situation, but I will tell you this... he was a wreck after I came home from the weekend away with my DD that my stupid H put the poor child in that situation. DS is non verbal so he couldn't even tell me what was wrong or tell his dad off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Point of clarification:
What I meant about watching what you say about OC - what I mean is that FF should be careful about saying that her main concern is her OWN children. She should be sure to watch that particular phrase in front of her H. She might want to say that her main concern is "THE children" or "ALL of the children". That way, he knows her concern for all of the kiddos, and doesn't translate in his mind that she has no regard for the OC. I've seen this happen, and OW takes this and runs with it like you would not believe. (Well, you probably would believe, given the nature of OW in general.) Lawyers also manipulate this in court. Definitely not that I was meaning to admonish, just trying to help out. Anyone who reads what FF writes can see she is trying to the right thing by the little ones.
Sorry if I offended you, FF. Certainly not my intent.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hard to communicate in this type of manner sometimes.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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noodle, There are children the world over who have only one parent and manage to survive and thrive regardless...is it the ideal..of course not...but when the ALTERNATIVE is a situation that I personally believe is *inherantly* sick, twisted, and morally confusing and can not by any means be otherwise I would opt for the single parent solution even for my OWN children.
All of the marriage recoveries that I have seen go the distance that involved an OC...also involved the nonparticipation of either the BS/FWS or the OP. The triangle does not work..it just does not I agree. My older DS turned out just fine without his father in his life. (well he saw he maybe once every one or two years starting at age 6 not much parenting really) I am very happy to hear you say that you have no responsibility to the OW..and I'd like to hear you someday extend that to her child. Allowing yourself to accept responsibility for things that are *utterly* outside of your circle of control is crazy making and pointless. I am nearly there. I understand logically, but emotionally it still hurts my heart to know that child has no father in his life. This is not a woman who is interested in her childs welfare as a first priority on this issue...it is a woman who is still in the fight [interesting side note in favor of NC with OW/OC is that while she is invested in this fight...she is necessarily less capable as a parent...if withdrawl/acceptance and true death of the affair were to actually occur...she would be able to redirect her focus and become a "better" mother...this is just not possible while she is in the affair cycle for *either* OW or WH This is a very good point. Just as I am not the best parent I can be when I am caught up in the drama of their A. He'll promise you and he'll promise her and he'll not lay and enforce any real boundaries of his own conviction and free will and will instead blame you and alternatively her any time he is currently either feeling constricted by the life he has created or has allied himself [temporarily] with one of his "families".
I fully expect him to hop back and forth between you for the indefinite future unless he experiences some internal changes of great magnitude...this is possible..but not likely. I am not 100 percent certain this is true. I believe the longer they are NC the less likely he will be drawn back in. It has only been two months so for now, I will say you may be correct. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He hasmade a decision for the moment to have NC with OW/OC...which means that under the right pressure [ie resumption of the affair] he will make a similar choice with regard to you and COM. Even during the most addictives parts of the A, my H never once abandoned my children. He was here every single day even when we lived apart. He won't abandon our children, THAT I can guarentee you. So while I have no specific advice...I think it vary important to take honest stock of the things that are within your control and make a clear list of them...and then make decisions with that list in mind... if your decision is to protect COM first then your choices have to reflect that...make sure that you aren't relying on things that are variable and outside of your control as givens..they may not be. Thank you. Very sound advice.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Sorry if I offended you, FF. Certainly not my intent. no offense taken, SB. I never speak badly of the OC, just the OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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I am wondering here...is the A really over? If the A is not over, then you do need NC. But at some point...this child does need to be included in the family if healing of the M is to occur. The baby cannot help his mother is a stupid manipulative beast...and the baby can't help who is dad is either. Peachy, he has been NC for 2 months. Not long enough to really call it recovery. What your WH did requires nothing less than rock solid boundaries and he needs to embrace HIS involvement and his causing this all to happen. The OW didn't impregnante herself...HE HELPED TOO! And this man had control in his life...he was not some helpless hapless dude who couldn't control his self...he always had the power to say no. And he has the power to stand up and do the right things for all his kids...and especially for his wife. He has to do those things... Never said he was a victim. Nope, he was there and he helped create the situation and the OC. It is up to my H to create his own boundaries and up to him to decide to go to court once he POJA's it with me, HIS WIFE which for me would only be IF I knew my DD would not suffer for it. I cannot force my H to man up. I can only create my own boundaries to protect me and my children.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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"An effective boundary bypasses the other persons cooperation"---myschae
...Seems to me that whatever you decide..the above is a good guideline.
Understanding what is and what is not within your control...and how to set up a plan that is acceptable to you..and sustainable BY you regardless of OW/WH future actions seems a good starting place. As you can tell, Noodle I need some solid boundaries. My seem to be built on sand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I will work on what you said above as I think it is rock solid advice for me. Thank you.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Faith, I think you know where I stand on this and I want to add...
Can YOU recover from this? Even if the marriage fully recovers, can YOU fully recover?
I IMO a person can only take so many betrayals before they cave.
I am sorry you are still going thru this pain..thinking of you! Yes, I do mom. I do believe IF the marriage survives or not, I will recover. However, I KNOW for certain I cannot take another betrayal. I have endured far more than I ever should have or thought I could thanks to God's grace but I don't believe I could do more. Thanks for caring, it means a lot to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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LIM, I am so sorry for the pain, here is a big warm hug (((hug))). Blessings to you and your daughter. Thanks very much for the hugs and the concern. My H will not marry the OW even if our marriage does not survive. I know him well. Marriage is not his strong point AND the lifestyle of the OW does not fit him well. If we D'd, he would simply string her along until she tired of it and likely not remain faithful to her either. I hope one day she realizes her children deserve better than a distracted mom chasing after a married man.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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My opinion is .... listen to BR and listen to Noodle and listen to Jo .... women who have brains and a full reserve tank of INTEGRITY ... and also women who are currently NOT CA-ers. I am listening carefully. Did you know I just met my older brother this summer?
He and our Dad are slowly developing a relationship ... and OB (older brother) grew up in a very strange household ... it's a long story. But, guess what? As an adult he sees that the ONE person with the majority of responsibility who created his messy childhood was ~~~> his Mom ! And, he's forgiven her! sounds very much like what happened recently to LynnG's H. Very happy for your dad. To sacrifice your children at the alter of what's best for OC is .... unnecessary sacrifice.
It would be different entirely if OW would cooperate, or if H had a pair & took her to court to fight for joint custody .... but H's lack of (a pair) has placed OC in jeopardy .... not YOU! I agree totally.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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I have a question, FF.
On a scale of 1-10 (with 10 being high), where is your H's empathy and compassion for how YOU feel about all of this? Does he get it?
Jo
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This is NOT because of OC or OW or either of your affairs ....
It is because that is the best "he" can do ~~~> in my opinion which is based on NOT knowing him !
But YOU do know him, and you know him well ... take off any rose-shading and honestly appraise the situation like you would a house you were thinking of buying....
What is fixable (roof, plumbing, etc) and what is inherent (location, weather, etc)
Stop putting your energy trying to fight the fixed eliments of your marriage....
KWIM? YES, I KWYM and realizing that yesterday gave me the freedom to breathe. As long as there is no adultery, I think I can make the most of this M. When I am not pressuring him to perform to MY standards, we enjoy each other.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Faith, I think you need to step back and see how your recovery progresses. You can't expect to have all the answers now. You are speculating way in advance. Let's see if your H really does keep NC and lets see if your Love for each other can recover. Keep your boundaries firm. Pray and believe for the best.
Blessings.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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On a scale of 1-10 (with 10 being high), where is your H's empathy and compassion for how YOU feel about all of this? Does he get it? Maybe a 5, Jo. He is starting to get it but empathy is not a big forte of his either.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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BK, I don't think I am getting ahead of myself. I KNOW we are barely (if at all)into recovery. I recently discovered I need to focus on my own recovery BUT during this discovery I began to question whether an M or a BS can TRULY recover when there is an OC involved. Hence this thread. This is part of my exploratory surgery.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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On a scale of 1-10 (with 10 being high), where is your H's empathy and compassion for how YOU feel about all of this? Does he get it? Maybe a 5, Jo. He is starting to get it but empathy is not a big forte of his either. Keep an eye on it. If eventually he doesn't get the gravity of the hurt and damage he's caused you, I would consider it an indicator for possible future bad behavior. I'm sighting this from my own personal experience. Jo
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Faith - all blessings to you. With God all things are possible. Recovery is truely possible. If you both lean on God.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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FF, do you remember last Christmas? Do you remember you were going to make sure he was gone by December 27?
What has really changed since then? If he is still on a scale of 5, I think you are holding out for something that will never happen.
You know you are one of my dearest friend MBers - I wouldn't hurt you for the world - I just want to see you happy at last.
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