I am the male WS. Married for 15+ years. I had an affair with a woman I work with. D Day was about a year ago.

I did speak with my director about it. At first I asked for a transfer but she said that I would need somebody in another unit who would be willing to transfer. There wasn't anybody.

Another opportunity came up with an agency but I needed accreditation and the accreditation body was slow in responding - they still haven't. That leaves me stuck where I am now at the moment.

Our marriage since has been up and down and is now in a very, very downward spiral. She feels that I am not connected and that I am being dragged in the marriage. I participate in certain groups in the community which I hope will help me to give me some life and energy. She is not comfortable with those and told me that I should draw energy from our family.

I am doing an exercise routine and she says that I am being too obsessive about that.

We have started to go out every Friday for activities.

Increasingly it appears that we are on different tracks as far as what it takes for our marriage to work or even what marriage means to both of us. I am very sorry for my infidelelity and I do not speak to the woman very much any more. I regret what happened and what it is doing. I am continuing to look for another position but it is difficult.

We have gone for couple and individual counselling.

She often says that I don't have what it takes to help her get through this. I reply that I am the cause of all of her unhappiness so how can I possibly help her. I do try to meet her emotional needs. Physical intimacy is hard for me and always has been. I like to spend time just talking in a serene space. But when this topic comes up it seems like the storms of guilt or whatever within me swell up. I lack the words to say how sorry I am for this.

She tells me that this was worse for her than any abuse she has endured. This is worse than when she was victimized when she was young.

I tell her that my energy is being devoted to trying to change jobs and find something and that all of this is extremely difficult. She says that she feels like a chump and that anybody on this board would tell her that she should leave.

I tell her that if that is best for her healing then so be it but I would prefer us to try to make this work.

I have been loyal and supportive to her our whole marriage. This situation was very bad and I should never have entered into it and certainly will not enter into anything like it again.

I realize that I am all over the place but help me to understand what I should do.

I will read the books that she suggests but when we did the emotional needs questionnairre we had a huge fight as she did not like some of the things I wrote.

Sorry that I am all over the place. I thought things were going well but then just yesterday she asked me a question about the OW and she didn't like the answer. I have no feelings for the OW at all and I wish I could explain how I got involved in the first place but I just can't. The whole thing was sick from the get go. I knew it was sick in fact the relationship itself was toxic. A counsellor at the time told me the same as if I needed to hear what I already know. I guess the only thing I can compare it to is an addiction. Addictions never feel good.

Lots of layers to the whole thing. I just need some general advice. I will read the books this weekend but things are really, really hard and it looks like the marriage is heading for dissolution..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Welcome. You need to have no contact with the other woman. Until that time, plan on your marriage heading for dissolution.

I realize that. However, what am I supposed to do 40 K in debt, mortgage, etc.

Quit????

Then what. Lose home. Sounds all very romantic but we do have children ( I know I should have considered that).

Welcome, MrThunderheart...your BW didn't post past 7/31/06...we missed her...want a followup.

You're brave to be here...Sounds like from your post, you still work with OW, though contact is not very often, is that correct?

"and I do not speak to the woman very much any more. I regret what happened and what it is doing. I am continuing to look for another position but it is difficult."

Have you read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley? Do you believe, as most of us who have been through infidelity like you believe, that any contact restarts your recovery clock? You only have the number of days since last visual, audible or written contact...all contact continues the affair.

Have you read about the wayward state of mind? That persists long after contact ends...called withdrawal...a transition period...like an awakening...and then you earn your F (for Formerly) in FWH or FWS...what stage do you see yourself in right now? What stage does your BW see?

In MrsThunderheart's posts last July, she said you were doing everything except the change of work...sounded to me like you'd owned your affair, knew why you chose to abuse your family, that it was your choice...and you had deep remorse...is that correct? Only thing was because of your family debt, you chose not to end contact by changing your job outright, right away.

You have tried different ways of correcting this which did not end up ending contact. Is your OW married, btw?

"She often says that I don't have what it takes to help her get through this."

Is this her exact words or what you hear? Is she saying, "You are not doing what it takes to heal our marriage". She has her personal recovery and marital recovery...she has her part in her healing and you have your part in her healing...not all, part...are you willing to do what it takes?

Are you doing what it takes?

"I reply that I am the cause of all of her unhappiness so how can I possibly help her."

This is a DJ to her, as hers was a DJ to you...nobody defines us but us...and your DJ is in quantifying...the "all of her unhappiness." Don't hand back a DJ for a DJ...the more real you own your own stuff and she, hers, the more intimate you can become. I'm sorry to say, like Believer, unless all contact ceases, eliminating LBs will not be enough. Your choice to remain in contact is a deal breaker to your marriage...no matter how much your wife loves you and love the marriage, your contact continues the affair.

"I do try to meet her emotional needs. Physical intimacy is hard for me and always has been."

Have you gotten into IC to discover why it is hard for you? Part of personal recovery...inspired by your desire to recover your marriage and yourself.

"I like to spend time just talking in a serene space."

So does my DH...we have time for him, time for me, time for us...we do 20 hours of UA a week...includes RC (which can be taking in serence space, appreciating beauty together) and communication exercises together.

"But when this topic comes up it seems like the storms of guilt or whatever within me swell up. I lack the words to say how sorry I am for this."

Only you control your stuff, MrT...guilt cannot be assuaged with words...takes actions. So far, your choice to not take extraordinary measures to end contact is an action which says job first, family second...there are no excuses...and did MrsT got to a worksite last fall? Did that change your income levels? People here have sold their houses, changed their standard of living...moved in with extended family...to save their marriages. They do what it takes...because without your marriage and family, your standard of living drops by half, your debt can double (divorce costs and keeps on costing)...and you have nothing...not a marriage, cannot be a full time parent, and you still remain legally responsible for your half of the family...without the family.

Your BW was willing to stand by you, take the financial dive with you...so you could amend your great damage...she was willing to shoulder financial aid, reduce and depend...like she leaned on you before...and you, leaning on her, taking that huge risk quitting your job; I believe she looked forward to it.

Do you know the definition of a wayward state of mind?

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

I hear you harbor resentment.

You do not respect your BW is capable of hearing the depth of your honesty--or yourself to know you cannot undo one thing about the past...when you put another woman ahead of your BW and you now continue to your job ahead of your marriage.

"She tells me that this was worse for her than any abuse she has endured. This is worse than when she was victimized when she was young."

She shared that with us last year, just two months after DDay...her anger probably swelled larger about November, maybe the start of the holidays...normal reaction...and she may go from fearing losing you to huge anger...vacillating and torn with pain. She cannot change that without divorcing.

You can. And stay married.

"I tell her that my energy is being devoted to trying to change jobs and find something and that all of this is extremely difficult."

I would have divorced my husband in the eight months it has been with contact, trying to change jobs...thinking what you're doing is extremely difficult...in that WS mindset...because it took my FWH three months and it was more ****** than I have ever endured, either...and worth it. Eight months? No way. I don't know how long your affair lasted...if it was three months, then add three more for the fantasy factor for the EA to build up...that's six months you didn't put your wife first by putting your marriage as your top priority...and add eight months to that...of devastating pain...that's a year and two months she's chosen to stay and recover the marriage...for the children, herself and her choice to love you.

And she's being told you are not the cause for all her pain.

Rack ya up, MrT...You've got another six months of agony to live through to begin to get even with her suffering.

"She says that she feels like a chump and that anybody on this board would tell her that she should leave."

She feels no self-respect...partially from still desiring to control what she cannot (we talked about it) and partially from not enforcing her boundaries...no chump in that. Solely human. She knows that in her heart. She has to respect you--you chose to not recover the marriage for eight months...that's reality. She chose to not legally separate or divorce...only she knows why. She did not follow through Harley's plan to do her part to stop your affair...which would have been Plan B about two months after her post. She has made her choices. She's making herself feel like a chump, not you.

You're not maintaining your marital boundaries...up to her to choose after you chose.

If she had gone to Plan B...where you moved out and experienced the financial repercussions...then I believe you could see where not protecting your marital boundaries...doing whatever it takes...would aid greatly in your changing your guilt to self-respect and appreciation, healing her from your part...because you're in a place now, as a natural consequence, of losing your job and your family, or losing your job.

"I tell her that if that is best for her healing then so be it but I would prefer us to try to make this work."

Please don't lie to yourself here...you don't prefer to recover if you continue at that job...wishing doesn't cut it. Working at 7-11 and Sears, if needed, could. Seeing your wife supporting you through would be priceless...you aren't affording her that opportunity. Look how you attempt to guilt others...which is really human when we experience great guilt.

It deepens, not relieves, your own.

You have the means, the capability of healing and recoverying...you're choosing not to...no judgment here. That's your choice. I respect it can only be your choice. So does MrsT...and she's been wishing it different, not in her control.

"I have been loyal and supportive to her our whole marriage."

This is another lie. You have acted as if you're supportive and loyal...doesn't mean you are. At the time you chose to have an A, you attacked your wife and marriage. You replaced her. In your thoughts, your choices and it was pure fantasy, wasn't it?

"This situation was very bad"

Ownership helps tremendously here, MrT. What you did was heartbreakingly sad...you chose the situation...having an A with a coworker. Tell me, had she not been a coworker, but a neighbor, would you sell your house and move away for no contact?

"and I should never have entered into it and certainly will not enter into anything like it again."

Good to know. Shoulds and shouldn'ts will not aid you in life. Humans only do and don't.

"I realize that I am all over the place but help me to understand what I should do."

I hope I've answered what your many options are.

"I will read the books that she suggests but when we did the emotional needs questionnairre we had a huge fight as she did not like some of the things I wrote."

She didn't like ENs you wrote about you? Or was it the LB questionnaire where you named her LBs and she named yours?

Do you keep the past in the present, sir? Do you base your choices on possible response or from your own personal code, your integrity?

"Sorry that I am all over the place. I thought things were going well but then just yesterday she asked me a question about the OW and she didn't like the answer."

There isn't a single answer about OW your BW WOULD like. She's a big girl. She won't ask for what she can't handle. If she AO'd or LB'd you after you answered, then that's still hers...to own and amend. If she was hurt, angry and remained respectful, then you are again putting your stuff on her...

"I have no feelings for the OW at all and I wish I could explain how I got involved in the first place but I just can't."

You cannot recovery your marriage until you know why you chose.

"The whole thing was sick from the get go. I knew it was sick in fact the relationship itself was toxic. A counsellor at the time told me the same as if I needed to hear what I already know. I guess the only thing I can compare it to is an addiction. Addictions never feel good."

Addictions ALWAYS feel good while you're doing them...they are fantasy...not real...every single one of them. And they have to have the guilt associated to complete the cycle, locking us in. Getting to yours, all the whys...the ownership...negates the cycle. Your BW remains vulnerable to you getting addicted again until you, yourself, know why and how you can honor your marital and personal boundaries.

"Lots of layers to the whole thing. I just need some general advice. I will read the books this weekend but things are really, really hard and it looks like the marriage is heading for dissolution....."

Understandable. 14 months of torture takes its tole...and with divorce, depending on your state, you may add another 12 months or longer to that torture. Personal recovery remains. That's totally in your hands. Marital recovery is half yours, half hers.

You can do this...many have here...and we have thriving marriages...better than we could imagine...up to you.

Sounds to me like you're scrambling now...and you sound sincere. Find out how you create and store resentment...and why...because it leads to entitlement...and both are only possible when you lack respect (when you own her stuff and vice versa, instead of separate and equal partners).

Because contact has continued the A, MrsT's response to answering your question is akin to being back at DDay...you guys haven't gotten through the stages...I remember the questions and answers...as raw as I've ever been in my life. See her bravery in asking, choosing to stay, choosing to hear...see her love for you...it's real.

LA

P.S. Took me so long to write this, I got to see your response...

You are 40k in debt...you can declare bankruptcy, sell the house, cars...whatever you need to do to keep your family together. Hypothetically, if you asked your children, "Would you rather lose your house or Mommy or Daddy?" they would say, "The house!" This is your road to redemption, MrT...only way to amend your past...redeem your own spirit...unless you can stay employed and she can leave...or MrsT can file a lawsuit of alienation of affection against OW...or for sexual harassment towards her family against the company and OW...lots of other stuff she can do...to fight for her marriage...until your company keeps you and OW in absolute no contact...an emergency transfer...or you quit and file suit against them for hostile work environment.

Lots of stuff...for the hero to fight for his marriage. Nothing will stand in his way. He loves himself, his wife and his children too much to NOT do it...to lose everything but what he values most...his partner, his children...his self-respect.

If you aren't spending 15 hours a week meeting her ENs then you need to drop some of your activities. If you don't want to make the time, then you don't want to be married. You obviously need to spend more effort in the M. Have you read HNHN? Follow the MB guidelines and you WILL restore your M. It seems like you pick and choose which MB guidelines you want to follow based on how you feel about them. It doesn't work that way. You are the one who had an A, so you need to go out of your way to protect your M and make your BW feel secure and happy once again.

Thanks LovingAnyway and Jim:

Lots to think about:

"Sounds like from your post, you still work with OW, though contact is not very often, is that correct?"

Right but it is required from time to time. There is an underlying tension/hostility that is felt from time to time. It hampers my own productivity as I have to sort through all that stuff and try to process it all. But generally there isn’t a lot of contact – no.

"Have you read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley?"

I think that is one that she has. I have to confess that it was hard to read those. I couldn’t connect with some of the affair stories because my own feelings were conflicted. I think at bottom this A (as most sexual games of this sort) have to do with games of power – from me too. Any emotions are at the service of this hidden desire (in my humble opinion). But I don’t know how much energy I want to spend dissecting the entire relationship of the A. The fact of the matter was I should not have been devoting energy to that in the first place. No wonder almost every single spiritual tradition on the planet has sanctions against adultery.

"what stage do you see yourself in right now? What stage does your BW see?"

I see myself as still partly in that fog but BW sees me as having a little more clarity around it.

"sounded to me like you'd owned your affair, knew why you chose to abuse your family, that it was your choice...and you had deep remorse...is that correct?"

Yes.

"Is your OW married, btw?"

Well she isn't "my" OW - she is just THE OW but - No.

"are you willing to do what it takes?"

It takes a lot of energy and I would like there to be happy and light times too. And don’t get me wrong – there have been plenty. It’s just the last two days seem like we are right back at the beginning.

"Your choice to remain in contact is a deal breaker to your marriage...no matter how much your wife loves you and love the marriage, your contact continues the affair."

Yeah I know. The thing is that I am really trying to make concrete steps to leave, but the world isn’t cooperating. I could, be more aggressive in my pursuit of changes. It remains a priority and I realize that this situation is like death by a thousand cuts – I feel that way too.

"Have you gotten into IC to discover why it is hard for you?"

I have discussed it but sometimes I don’t necessarily see the value in that. I get all that past stuck in my head, then I bring it home, talk about it. I don’t want to get more screwed up at this time. Maybe I'm still in a fog.

"we do 20 hours of UA a week"

..well that’s another thing. I could be better at that. But with kids its harder.

"So far, your choice to not take extraordinary measures to end contact is an action which says job first, family second"

It really isn’t like that but that is a fair comment and I can see how it would seem and maybe it is that way. Tied to my intimacy stuff is a strong desire for recognition. Lots of reasons for that.


"Do you know the definition of a wayward state of mind?

Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect."

I guess I am still in a wayward state of mind. But that can change once one is aware of it right?


"If she had gone to Plan B"

She said that Dr. Harley said that separating was the worst thing to do. But to be fair, we were waiting to hear from an accreditor for a long time. The job was there. So there was movement back and forth and correspondence and energy placed in that. Then there was vacation for a month together and things were basically tolerable. So it wasn’t like there wasn’t expectation and hopes in that time period. I wasn’t making it up. There really was a position but now it looks like due to a variety of factors that isn’t panning out. There is another possibility but it may take awhile for it to materialize (maybe a month or so).


So she was really hoping and now I suppose she is in the Plan B territory.

"Addictions ALWAYS feel good while you're doing them."

Hmmm... Addictions....You feel bad when you don’t have it but don’t feel better when you do.

"You obviously need to spend more effort in the M."

Yes that is true. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what to talk about or where to start without it turning into a dispute or having to work through all these intense emotions.

But the work thing – is the thing.

"you need to go out of your way to protect your M and make your BW feel secure and happy once again."

Indeed. I could be doing a whole lot better on that score.

Thank you for your response, MrT.

"I think that is one that she has." SAA "I have to confess that it was hard to read those."

Part of redemption comes from doing what is difficult...it is how you break fog and personally recover. Teaches your brain you don't want addiction...you want to build yourself from the inside outward...one difficult achievement at a time.

"I couldn’t connect with some of the affair stories because my own feelings were conflicted."

Feelings are signals...they aren't what we live by. They are signalling you about your own beliefs...trace them to your beliefs. Living directly from your beliefs frees you from addictions.

"I think at bottom this A (as most sexual games of this sort) have to do with games of power – from me too. Any emotions are at the service of this hidden desire (in my humble opinion). But I don’t know how much energy I want to spend dissecting the entire relationship of the A. The fact of the matter was I should not have been devoting energy to that in the first place. No wonder almost every single spiritual tradition on the planet has sanctions against adultery."

Spend all your energy not on dissecting the A...your CHOICE to have it...there's the difference. If you are a praise hound (my term for my old self), know the whys you are...that's not A...that's you choosing the A. Usually you'll find if admiration is your drug, you'll find little to admire about yourself in yourself. Change it. Dig for it. Do the hard work. Then you'll see what is a false payoff from a real one. Brings you out of your fog from fantasy into reality. Changes everything.

Great line about it being against every religion on the planet.

Want a great book on getting to your own personal recovery and owning your own stuff? Getting the love you want by Harville Hendrix. Something you could read aloud with your wife...some of that UA time can be spent in this way. Can take you back to being read to as a child, when it was safe...or her triggering to that feeling of security, as a child. Acts of love are numerous, priorities aren't that many.

When you said not easy to get the UA time because you've got kids...that's a signal you put children before your marriage. You're not alone. We've raised three sons...and we did that. To our detriment and theirs.

When you make time for UA...even a half hour at a time...kids learn to respect their own attention time, too. When you example a healthy relationship with marriage as the top priority (which puts you and your wife in the top spot, half and half), then kids learn how to have healthy relationships.

We were reared wrong. I swear. LOL. Since I've been doing this the last two years, my sons have bloomed...they really get it. Resentment drops off the radar (we teach our children entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect)...and you'd be floored how much of that they then live by. Through example. All the "be nice and loving" stuff falls away when they see their parents torn up, full of pain and fear...they learn that's normal...and they live that way. Was a huge discovery for me and my DH.

With this falling through and waiting more process at work...are you holding your BW each morning and amending for her daily pain? Each day of no contact, in this context, is a day of possible contact. Grueling. Degrading. A state of fear. And each evening, holding her, sharing with her your awareness of her torture. That sounds really difficult to me...and necessary.

So do five calls a day to update her on no contact or contact.

You can change your beliefs and be a new person...you can change your permission to create and feed your resentment...it's like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. We can even self-resent, be split inside with it...waiting for our other selves to die. Contributes greatly to downward spirals.

Think about entitlement...it's fantasy. So is resentment. You are human...in God's design, humans have no control over anyone else on the planet. You cannot be the cause, control or cure for anyone else. Only yourself. You have constant, inherent choice. Up to you to know your feelings, your signals, your beliefs, and control your thoughts, perceptions and perspectives. Only you define you and all your stuff. Respect is knowing what is yours and what is others' stuff...their feelings, thoughts, beliefs, perspectives and perceptions are all valid. That's their truth. You have yours.

The deepest crime within betrayal is NOT knowing your own stuff...that self-deception which is what covers all of you...it is the fog...and it's generated by you. If you choose to change your life, you would do well to make self-honesty your highest goal, and radical honesty in your marriage. It's the fogbreaker.

Tough to do...at the wayward mindset, honesty is hard to come by...reflexively, we hide and rationalize, revise and fantasize. We lame ourselves and believe others are doing it to us.

To get there, I used "To try is to lie." I based my life on full out effort...trying was my way. Those who didn't try, well, I looked down on them. My DH, among them. DJs and trying got me to waywardness...and I was a serial cheater. Once I really got "to try is to lie" I found the root of my fantasy life. Humans do. Or don't do. There is nothing else.

And humans do not do anything they do not want to do. There can be false payoffs we think are real...in what we choose to do...or not do. There are real ones. Trick is to know the difference. Own our choices. Choose through awareness, highest honesty and our code.

When you get there, you'll experience freedom, real freedom...ownership, not blame...conscious choice. I swear, it's like breathing sweet air for the first time. Indescribable, really.

Please ponder this...inserting "choice" into every sentence, to get familiar with your human power and limits.

Like this: "Indeed. I could be doing a whole lot better on that score."

I will choose to do a whole lot better on that score.

"..well that’s another thing. I could be better at that. But with kids its harder."

I choose not to do the time." Honesty erases resentment. You choose your life every moment...getting to know you do, without self-punishing, just ownership, is where you stop the wayward state of mind.

"Yes that is true. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what to talk about or where to start without it turning into a dispute or having to work through all these intense emotions."

Figuring out is response-based choice. Choosing to share your thoughts, feelings, beliefs...your stuff...is intimacy. Intimacy is knowing your stuff and sharing it with your partner. Period. It is listening and repeating her stuff, to confirm or clarify. To know, not to judge. You are separate and equal human beings...her beliefs are not yours...you can choose to agree to disagree...no deal breakers there. Knowing your adult beliefs is tougher than it sounds. Saying, "I feel empty yet full of fear" is braver than it sounds. You fear of conflict is natural...acting on it is cowardly.

Sharing is stating what you're feeling, thinking, etc. Your stuff. When you get your signals..."I feel pressure to perform, to be good enough right now" and you state them, those intense emotions drop away. If they don't, you aren't getting to what is behind them, so you go further..."I have felt this way all my life. I fear your judgment of me being worthless. Comes from my belief if I'm good enough, do well enough, I'll be accepted by you."

Then feel your emotions and check the fearful one. See if it drops. When you act from love...with your belief you choose to love and act on it, not earn it, then each act of love you do (meeting ENs), gives you an intense feeling of love...not the response to it. You have a wide open love bank and she can make deposits in it, and so can you, for you. No resentment blocking...having to say or do...you doing from your own commitment to love.

Communication exercises...what kind has your MC been having you guys do every week? What kind of schedule?

I believe recognition has three parts, and they can overlap...admiration/approval, attention and appreciation. What do you think?

By posting here, you are breaking your entitlement...you are benefiting yourself and your marriage. Your choice to be brave...and you are...please recognize this in yourself.

LA

Hi LA

Thank you for remembering me and taking the time to respond. I’m not one to air dirty laundry in public or participate in “he said” “she said”. In fact I don’t’ recall reading many posts with the spouses both on the same post and I have spent a great deal of time on MB lurking. I do feel the need to clarify some of the points made by my WH. I have to preface this by saying that I have a very heavy heart these days and I’m afraid that I have come to a very painful realization – one of which is I thought my S was further along this journey.

“I am the male WS. Married for 15+ years. I had an affair with a woman I work with. D Day was about a year ago.”

February 26/06 to be exact he finally answered my questions truthfully. One year anniversary fast approaching.

“Another opportunity came up with an agency but I needed accreditation and the accreditation body was slow in responding - they still haven't. That leaves me stuck where I am now at the moment.”

During this time he was very reluctant to send a letter of complaint as to the waiting time. Only after I looked up the history and timeframe of correspondence did he do so (I know now this is one of my problems)

“Our marriage since has been up and down and is now in a very, very downward spiral. She feels that I am not connected and that I am being dragged in the marriage. I participate in certain groups in the community which I hope will help me to give me some life and energy. She is not comfortable with those and told me that I should draw energy from our family.”

The groups all have to do with intimate conversation with other people. One was started before the affair and involves other single women/men and is a closed group. They pick a subject and discuss with each other what it means to them and their life. I fully supported his involvement preA but now it makes my stomach turn everytime he goes. He has since joined two more groups – one exploring a completely different religion that I have no desire to do and the other (which he will facilitate) I have asked to join with him – it’s affiliated with our church.

“I am doing an exercise routine and she says that I am being too obsessive about that.”

Initially the exercise routine involved every morning and evening which left very little time to spend together or even just be a part of the family and household chores. He agreed to cut out the evening and spend time with us which has been a welcome change. After an argument the other night he resentfully stated he felt he needed permission to do the things I thought we had agreed on together. This is when reality hit me with a two by four.

“We have started to go out every Friday for activities.”

Not Alone.

“Increasingly it appears that we are on different tracks as far as what it takes for our marriage to work or even what marriage means to both of us. I am very sorry for my infidelelity and I do not speak to the woman very much any more. I regret what happened and what it is doing. I am continuing to look for another position but it is difficult.”

As explained in my original post they are the only two in the unit and each position depends on the other. They communicate through notes, voice mail and case management. It appears that the amount of communication has dropped and he has stopped calling her at home when she calls from there but there is still communication. The first tryst they had involved telling me that there was a crisis call that he needed to assist her with in the middle of the night. I do not trust anything having to do with his work. Everyday I wonder if they are speaking to each other and in what kind of tone, have they even looked at each other – it is just so painful and insulting to me. Also in response to your question LA she was married twice and had a partner at the time of the A, as well as one more OM. I did get another job in Oct. – I am working two part time jobs which now brings in approx. $400 less a month than my S.

“We have gone for couple and individual counselling.”

He attended two sessions with me. I continued on my own. With pressure he has started his own IC.

“She often says that I don't have what it takes to help her get through this.”

Prior to this our marriage was not doing well. WH was disconnected mostly with the computer and would make the quick fixes necessary to get me off his back and then it would go back to the same thing. This is what I meant by not having what it takes – perhaps it could have been stated more respectfully. I have already gone through approx. two years of this prior to the A and already there are signs of history repeating itself.

“I tell her that my energy is being devoted to trying to change jobs and find something and that all of this is extremely difficult. She says that she feels like a chump and that anybody on this board would tell her that she should leave.”

You are right LA I make myself feel this way and sadly that is part of the painful realization of this past year. Unfortunately the energy he is devoting to most things is not what I/our marriage needs.

“I will read the books that she suggests but when we did the emotional needs questionnairre we had a huge fight as she did not like some of the things I wrote.”

I can’t remember what the subject was at all now – but I do remember the intense rage and emotion around everything at the time. Since then he has had some very redeeming moments glimpses of the man I married. We went away for the first time in 15yrs for our anniversary ALONE to a very romantic cottage and unknown to me he brought the music he played when he first proposed to me. He also took us all on an unexpected trip away after having received a Christmas bonus. At Christmas he presented me with a very romantic gift that only the two of us would get the meaning of. This went a long way for me to help heal the exposure I felt from the door he had opened with the OW. I eventually gave him a “list” out of frustration of what I needed for my LB on a more regular basis as the gaps between these moments can seem like an eternity. He initially provided this and it helped somewhat with the employment situation being what it is but lately that too has waned. We have had some light even joyous moments – I can’t say yet that there is a day that goes by that I haven’t thought about the A. There have been some mornings that it is not the first thing I think of when I wake up after having not dreamt of it finally. Life is better when EN’s are met but I can’t control that from him and I have to admit that I find it very difficult providing his EN’s (admiration) given the situation – so I guess it is a vicious circle.

I know that I am not without fault and I did try to offer ways to fix our marriage prior to the knowledge of the A. He was reluctant and now I know why. Right now I feel so very tired and beaten down – no energy to contribute to recovery. It seems there is this never ending black cloud that hangs over our marriage and it rains everytime he goes into work.

This is MrsT and unfortunately I am posting here yet again hoping for some insight into something I am torn about. I had a really good weekend attending prayer days on my own at our church and I received what I thought was some insight/healing into my life both past and present. I felt good about carrying on. MrT had actually applied for two jobs since his post and had been contacted by the registration place we have been waiting on – they wanted more info - so that was promising as well.

Yesterday when our cell phone bill came in I felt bad not trusting him in reviewing the numbers I have so vigilantly been used to doing - . My heart dropped when I saw the OW home number on the bill. Everything came flooding back and I could hardly focus on anything except that. I had not been informed that my H (I really don’t know what to call him anymore) had made this call so it came as a shock to me especially since we had both agreed that there was nothing that could ever justify him calling her at home again. Apparently the call was made due to a work emergency (heard that one before) and it only lasted 3 minutes even though he claims he did not speak with her or leave a message. All other calls register 1 minute when they are disconnected – 3 minutes later an incoming call is recorded lasting 13 minutes but no number identifying it.

H apologized and said he “forgot” to tell me. He allowed me to check his phone and her number does not appear as having been dialed. He claims he did not erase it. He says he will make this up to me – how do you do that? I got an extra hug when he came home and we all went skating as a family but went to sleep with him on the computer and left for work this morning with him on the computer.

I was hoping to speak to him today at lunch as he said he would be home – he called and says he has a meeting. He called a couple times on the cell to touch base and tell me he loves me but I just don’t know what to say anymore. Needless to say, I am at a completely different space now. Part of me really does believe that it is over with OW – but when this happened, it almost feels like day one again! I really do wish I could trust him but there is a place within me that just doesn’t.

Mrs.T,

I don't know if you are still around but it sounds as though the A isn't over.It usually isn't when the WS and OP still work together.As you stated,there are "emergencies" and all other kinds of reasons they find to get a fix.

Forgetting to tell you is also part of the deception.Things like that are critical to tell one another about and in reality if there is to ever be a chance for your marriage your WH cannot ever contact that person again.


Any word on a new job??

MrsT,

I'm so sorry I missed your two posts of 1/19 and 1/23...I'm going to figure out how to have email alerts sent when a post is added...I've forgotten how.

To your first response...

"WH was disconnected mostly with the computer and would make the quick fixes necessary to get me off his back and then it would go back to the same thing. This is what I meant by not having what it takes – perhaps it could have been stated more respectfully."

A DJ remains...does the harm...like acid, it eats away at you and at others...hard to contain the damage. You can state, "I perceive WH disconnected through distraction and felt he made quick fixes to get me off his back" which tells yourself you are a burden, an annoyance...ouch...see how stating it this way owns your perception and feelings...where stating it the other way makes it fact...incontrovertible, which is self-deception?

Get to your highest honesty here..."I perceive myself as an obstacle, an annoyance, an idiot." Whatever you have underneath this DJ is really important to bring out and see in the light...because the DJ has a false payoff...you can be in pain and be right. I'm asking you to revoke your permission to DJ in your head, heart or words...as an act of love for self, WH and the marriage.

I left the "WH" instead of "FWH" because as long as there is any contact, the affair continues. When I clarified that MrT said there was contact, just not that often...I wasn't condoning, I was clarifying. When there is contact, the affair continues. Any contact and your clock restarts...many of these over the course, would have killed my love for my DH entirely.

MrsT, you have a respect problem...and it's interferring with your hand on reality, much like a WS's fog does on theirs...

Please know the truth of actions...not reasons, rationalizations, etc. Your WH has free will...he chooses...you choose...no one can make you choose...not circumstances, weather, genes...nothing. Pure respect comes in acknowledging these choices. Not fighting them.

What I see in your post is your awareness of his choices...and not your own. Are you of the same mind that you're stuck, have no choice, no boundary enforcements, no power? I see you wanting to make him make it right...and that's disrespectful. I see you focused on him, wanting him to do the recovery work, get the NC in place so the recovery work can truly begin...and your choice to focus on him, not you, is tearing up your half of the marriage.

Crystal clarity here...since you know that no human can make another person do anything...each act of love he's made has been his choice...not quick fixes, not treating you like a burden...his choice. You can't make him. You can only make you. And choose to make your acts of love from you, not to get him to do anything.

Your WH has chosen contact and to not protect the marriage from IB, intimate sharing with members of the opposite sex, and believes he pulls in energy from others...instead of being the vibrating generator himself. And you buy into that...pulling energy from his family. What about your inherent power?

Acknowledge what is real...his choices are...and now focus on your choices only...he chooses, you choose. Sounds like you had a lot of issues pre-A...half were yours...half were his. What have you been doing to work on your half?

"You are right LA I make myself feel this way and sadly that is part of the painful realization of this past year. Unfortunately the energy he is devoting to most things is not what I/our marriage needs."

Not just this past year...this would be your choice of perspective before you met your DH, long before you knew you choose your perspective...to DJ or not...to live from respect or not...all those choices...and I'm asking you to realize this inside, to do your personal recovery work, so no matter what happens, you will have gained, changed and grown with great self-awareness and ownership...so that your marriage can thrive, or if it doesn't survive, then another relationship will...instead of a re-enactment.

Seriously.

There are a lot of DJs in your posts...not a wording issue...an ownership one. "With pressure he has started his own IC."

This can't be a human truth.

"I know that I am not without fault and I did try to offer ways to fix our marriage prior to the knowledge of the A."

Can you discern what is within your human control and what is not? Do you truly believe you can fix your marriage?

"He was reluctant and now I know why."

Why did he say was reluctant? Did he state, "Because I was foggy...in an affair...daunted...too far down the entitlement/resentment/disrespect road.."?

"Right now I feel so very tired and beaten down – no energy to contribute to recovery. It seems there is this never ending black cloud that hangs over our marriage and it rains everytime he goes into work."

Great sharing here, MrsT...do you live from your feelings or your beliefs? Do you believe you are tired and beaten down? Do you believe you have no energy to contribute to recovery...or are you being signalled these things through your feelings...can you trace them back to the beliefs? For instance, if you feel rained on every time he goes to work, then you believe there will be contact and the affair continues. That's a reasonable belief...I have it, too.

There is no recovery when there is contact. I'm sorry. Read Harley...after decades and thousands of couples, if there were an exception, you'd think he'd mention it? I know some people make great sacrficies...and some don't...and what your WH's priorities are, they are...respect them. Know your own. See your own choices, even when you choose not to act (that's a choice) and own them...they are yours...they aren't wrong. They are reality.

MrT said: "I tell her that my energy is being devoted to trying to change jobs and find something and that all of this is extremely difficult. She says that she feels like a chump and that anybody on this board would tell her that she should leave.”

We can tell others what we are doing...and cut off our legs, MrT...Choice isn't energy...Priorities is deciding what you value most in life, do want to live without, that one thing...and making your your choices in accordance with it. If you value FS more than your marriage, please respect yourself and others and own that. You will live without money...without a job...you won't starve, lose your wife or children...as long as you choose not to quit this job, you are choosing FS over your marriage.

I respect your choices. I'm not telling you not to...I'm here asking you both, Mrs & Mr T to be HONEST about them.

No reasons, rationalizations..."I choose not to quit my job" is honest. "I choose to have contact. I know that continues my A and blocks recovery, both personal and marital."

That's not wrong or bad...that's your choice. Know you're choosing this.

MrsT...do not partake in fantasy...the if only's and what if's...know you are choosing to wait on NC because your top priority is to not have your WH leave...to lose him...for you, for the kids...which you would, if you filed for divorce, correct? Or you might be making this daily choice because FS is your top priority, as well...and I respect this. What I don't respect is each of you believing in blame and fault...and not taking ownership of your present choices.

Today.

Your beaten down and sorrow-filled heart isn't about his choices...they are about yours...as you continue to choose to stay, wait, focus on him and treasure lack...as he chooses to continue his A.

Please get very real here. He may not choose to believe this...he may believe that A's have to have sex...or infatuation...they don't...the drug exists and he comes into contact with it...period. The hallmark sign of fog is self-deception...telling yourself there's no harm when there is obvious harm...because you WISH there was no harm. Very human. Very dangerous. And you are choosing this knowing that length of withdrawal is based on the length of the affair...and you have added months to it because of contact...continued contact...possibility of contact...so you've lengthened withdrawal and then, finally, recovery begins...and lasts two years after withdrawal.

Wow.

Our choices matter greatly, don't they?

Now, MrsT...OWN your triggers...I want you to bring them into your highest honesty...don't look at the cell bill unless WH is present...state, "This is my choice, my habit...it does not disrespect you or our marriage to know the truth, which come from choices and actions. Thank you for being present while I check this. I have faith that over time, I won't do this, won't feel compulsive."

That's nearly verbatim what I said to my WH.

So when you see the OW's number, as you did, you state, "Wow. I feel like my stomach dropped through my feet. OUCH. I feel like everything is happening all over again...I'm feeling resentment, pain, anger and great fear."

That's stating not demonstrating.

"I" statements own what is yours...and all that IS yours.

You know your WH chose not to tell you of this call or others. There's no forgetting...read The Verbally Abusive Relationship and get to know that FORGETTING IS ABUSIVE.

You are not his priority. Please stop self-decieving...the A continues. Period. You are free to choose to believe anything...you believe you can read minds, protect your heart, not be vulnerable if only he does or does not...and your own self-deception is harming you greatly...and feels like HE is doing it.

He's just choosing his life, MrsT.

You are not seeing where YOU are choosing yours.

You can have a real, honest marriage without trust...you want blind trust...and you're learning that doesn't exist. In recovery, I chose not to believe my FWH for a year and a half...and we still grew, side by side. Our marriage improved. Our wishful child wants to live in perfect sightless trust...and it's more self-deception. In reality there is peace. In fantasy, there isn't a drop.

I hope I brought you reality...he is choosing. You are choosing. Focus on you. Your choices. See and know them...don't judge them...be highly aware and honest with yourself.

LA

Thanks for posting AmericanBeauty & LA,

I'm still around - I came on the board to find something to help me feel better but I'm having a particularly bad evening - some choices stare you right in the face. I'll respond when I'm not feeling so emotional.

MrsT

You wanted something here to make you feel better...

The best way of getting my signals is to share what seemed so bad about what I was experiencing, and after seeing it before me, to find my part...my power. There is relief in freedom. In knowing, not judging.

If you're looking for signs...they are all around you...beware how often they may lead you to where you already want to go...not the signs, you. When you change your perspective, your life drastically changes. I'm here to share so you can make a healthy choice...know your power and limits...and thrive.

Not to change your signals, your feelings. They are important information...when you share them, you get that information.

LA

LA - I hope you're still out there. I was so hoping to be able to speak to someone. It's another emotional night for me. Your post has been simmering with me for a few days now. I have to admit that I needed to read it a few times to understand what you were saying but eventually it hit me like a 2x4. I want to ask my WH to leave our home until he finds a new job. I'm beginning to realize that his choices have really taken it's toll on me - so I guess I'm making a choice to end it for now. I'm reluctant - is this the thing to do? Should I speak with Dr. Harley for a plan? first? Dare I say that I still love my WH?

Mrs. T

MrsT,

Why do you think asking your WH to leave will end anything? What is your intent...to enforce a boundary, respect his choices, or to divorce? Look to your intent, your stuff, first.

Dare you say anything? Who you really are needs to be shared...to know and be known. If you choose to love your DH, then I believe, you live from that choice...through respect. Know your choice...state it...align your O&H statements with your intent and know how you choose your life.

Feeling emotional is when you get a lot of signals...state and know the signals...separate them and see where they're coming from. If you believe his choices have taken a toll on you, against your will, against your own choices, then him leaving won't change much, will it?

You feel reluctant...you want clarity before action. I strongly support you calling Dr. Harley...and take my advice and know your own stuff...your own choices previously, why you chose them...and what your intent truly is...

When we say personal and marital recovery...we mean it. They are separate recoveries...one is ENTIRELY in your hands...the other, is in both.

I don't believe marriages are ended because we no longer choose to love...I think they end all the time when we don't feel loved or loving feelings. Those who know their choice and act from it, build healthy, respectful marriages...even when their love banks hit bottom...because they do not choose to act from feelings but from principles.

If you base whether or not you will continue your marriage, even if separated, on feelings, then you'll recreate this scenario again and again...because that's what your WH did...he made choices based on false feelings and false perceptions. God brings us, again and again, lessons to understand and know life in truth...up to us to get to what doesn't change...and our feelings do. A lot.

You're not alone, MrsT...many people here had to face what they didn't want to...and they chose to take the hero's journey for themselves, their marriages and their families. In doing so, they changed their futures. We do, when we know what we're choosing now and why.

You can do this...go for clarity...know you are NOT defective, wrong or bad for having chosen what you did...strive to understand WHY.

LA

Hi LA - thanks for keeping in touch. I'm still around. I've been going through a real tough period lately - DJ's and LB's. I'm starting to pull out of it now and have apologized for my behaviour and I am going to do better - I really hate this up and down stuff! I have been trying to express my needs to H without DJ or LB. I guess asking him to leave had more to do with what I thought I should do and not what I wanted to do.

We have had some good intimate conversations. He expressed to me that he has been unable to meet my need for affection because of his own feelings of shame and remorse. He stated that he also now realizes that this has not helped in healing our marriage. He has stopped going to the groups he was in. I expressed to him that I didn't think that they were good for our marriage right now while trying to heal - he made the decision. I have joined him in a church group which went very well for the first time attending. Conversation and admiration are two of his EN's and this group (with me in it) satisfies this as we converse before and after attending as well as study a book together. It does sometimes trigger A talk at home but sadly this is part of our life for now. I hope for a day when it isn't so predominant. Getting another job will help that - for now, I have made the choice to work on our marriage while he is still working where he is. He has been making a more concentrated effort to satisfy my EN's and has resumed contacting me more throughout the day. I'm making a more concentrated effort to comment on his efforts and not so much what isn't happening (meets his need for admiration - duh!!). We have both agreed that when the top two EN's are being met by both of us - life is better.

MrsT

Great to hear from you, MrsT.

You know, I think MrT hit on something really important...when we continue to choose to act from our feelings (like remorse and shame), we continue the same pattern. Is that what you experienced, too? I know there were times I did not want to reach out and touch my DH...and I stayed aware of it, and touched him, anyway. Opened me up for receiving again...which surprised me how much I blocked his love deposits when I acted from my feelings.

Gets me dizzy just thinking about it.

And I found eye-contact was a big part of affection for me...and how my eyes strayed away...a distancing choice...so when I felt distance from him, I checked myself first...and made that eye contact...then began putting words with it (like you commenting on his efforts, what you are perceiving)...when looking into his eyes.

Human connection is as complicated as humans truly are...lots of roads in and out...our job is to stay aware of them.

You said, "It does sometimes still trigger A talk but sadly"...did you know sadness is a healing emotion? Grieving is healthy...grieving together is healing together. Your wishful child may consider the shortcut which bypasses sadness is that it would better had it never happened...get to know that wishful child and don't act from that reasoning...accept what is (as I see you doing very much...especially noticing your penchant for what should/should not and what you truly want) and know your stages of grief...first one is denial...for a reason.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How are you feeling about you?

LA

Hi LA,

Thanks again for your feedback. I have found that if I spend too much time on this site I tend to wallow in my pain and it sometimes triggers feelings and events. I sometimes need to take a vacation away from all of this.

"And I found eye-contact was a big part of affection for me...and how my eyes strayed away...a distancing choice...so when I felt distance from him, I checked myself first...and made that eye contact...then began putting words with it (like you commenting on his efforts, what you are perceiving)...when looking into his eyes."

I can really relate to this - in fact my H has commented that he knows when I'm hurting because I don't look at him. Your statement has made me more aware of not doing this and being more intentional of touch and eye contact - so thank you for that - it does make a big difference.

"You said, "It does sometimes still trigger A talk but sadly"...did you know sadness is a healing emotion? Grieving is healthy...grieving together is healing together. Your wishful child may consider the shortcut which bypasses sadness is that it would better had it never happened...get to know that wishful child and don't act from that reasoning...accept what is (as I see you doing very much...especially noticing your penchant for what should/should not and what you truly want) and know your stages of grief...first one is denial...for a reason."

Well I guess I had a healthy grieving session the night before Valentines's Day. I really had a difficult time controlling my sadness and pain - I sobbed deeply and unconsolably for most of the evening wishing that all of this would go away. I find myself still comparing events from last year - having been in the dark about it all. D-day is also coming up in a week and I find myself remembering how painful it was to hear the truth of it all.

I did have a lovely Valentine's Day. My H sent me roses at my new job and I felt loved amidst the women who yearned for the same. He included a package of bath scents for me to use that evening - and later on a card with a very touching verse. I knew that he had selected it for the words and that touched me. I cooked us a special meal and played some music that we used to listen to when we first were married and candlelight. It was as romantic as it could be given that we also had dinner with my DD. Her heart was singing (it's been difficult for her too) and she danced with my H which made my heart sing. I gave him a gift which was more meaningful than romantic - something we could do together.

I just want to get through this month and be gone with the year of wondering what was actually happening this time last year - I think that may be why they say it takes two years?

I had mentioned to him that I had heard Dr. Harley on his radio program advise another man of a checklist in order to get into the habit of being affectionate again. My H actually made a calendar of daily actions of affection that he could check off and has planned for some dates. I think it gives him a sense of accomplishment and gives me/us something to look forward to. It has made a tremendous difference even within the last week. I pulled out of my meltdown much quicker and have made a conscious effort to respond to these actions as you mentioned in your post.

I've rediscovered some activities that I used to really love and have been participating in them as often as I can with my family. It has sparked some confidence within myself because I am good at them but they had fallen by the wayside over the years.

So, time to pull up my bootstraps and head into the coming week. I really do appreciate you responding to my posts - I admire your strength in being able to revisit such a painful time in your life to give hope to others.

MrsT