I've posted before on this subject, how my fiance didn't pick up the tab for dinner when we went out with "my" children, and how vacations were such that you paid your own way. I resented that he stayed in a condo that I rented and ate my groceries and used my rental car and then didn't offer to pick up the tab at dinner and even would say "let me get yours" but wouldn't pay for the childrens' breakfast the time he did treat for breakfast at a theme park.

I had to tell him "pointedly" last time he wanted to take a vacation that I couldn't afford to go because vacation for me meant a $3-4000 tab because of the expense of the children being added.

The second vacation we took, he booked the flight and then called to tell me the info to get a car. When I asked him why he didn't just book the car and get a package he just said that he had paid for the flight. (And I was supposed to pay for the car to be "even".) I told him that time that given the price of meals and hotels it would have evened itself out - but this is how he is and he won't admit it.

In fact he denied vehemently that he had not picked up any tab for the kids and then later admitted it was probably true.

But that he didn't want to be remembered for being cheap and everyone thinks he is a generous guy. (He is generous to his friends, buying them kegs of beer, but picks a cheap restaurant or wants to eat at home rather than spend money on fine dining.)

The whole subject of who pays for what and splitting expenses is a big sore spot with me anyway. My ex used to split the household expenses with me 50/50. He made a similar income. I paid for clothing for the children and vacations in addition to my "half" of the bills because he never saved. Additionally he would not pay the bills and a couple of times I had to give him thousands to catch things up when he didn't pay the bills even though I gave him my "half" on time. I still don't know what he did with all that money - probably spent it on girlfriends.

I have a big problem with my fiance suddenly wanting to know how we should split expenses for our house 50/50. He opened up a conversation on who should pay what. We have talked before about combining things into one joint account, but it never happened.

Given that in the past he bought things like electronics or toys with his cash and expected me to foot the bill for the children, I'm not happy with that suggestion that we divide expenses this way.

He would prioritize his spending on his needs only and not the needs of the family.

He could buy the cool new blue ray system AND take a vacation because the total is what I would spend just taking a vacation with him and the kids with me footing the larger bill.

I want to have financial planning such that we prioritize together what we want to do with "our" cash (go on a family vacation this year OR buy the cool new electronic) and be aware that buying habits and priorities affect everyone in the family.

I was of upset that I told him that if he just wanted to plan for himself with the cash that he had then don't be surprised if I tell you to go on vacation by yourself when I can't afford to go with you. Then I spilled my guts on how I saw the whole situation and why I wanted joint accounts and why I thought that splitting the costs would leave me with less cash as I have more spending responsibilities with what I have to buy for the kids.

I tried to point out to him that this builds resentment. What if I was responsible for the cable bill and decided that he didn't need three receivers and digital cable or high speed internet. That all I wanted to pay for was basic and we could make do with DSL.

Or if I decided the heat was fine at 50 degrees because I didn't want to pay a bill for keeping the house at 70...

Or tell him to go on vacation by himself because I couldn't afford to go with him even if he could afford to go.

There are just so many things about the whole separate money thing that upsets me.

Can anyone here honestly say that both parties benefit from splitting accounts and responsibilities?

V.

I think it depends on the couple and you have alot of work to do in this area before you get married. Have you introduced MB to him? This could be a way to bring up finances.

There was a great article recently in either Kiplinger's Personal Finance magazine or in Money about Multigenerational households. The part that would be interesting for you would be in how they split finances, and contribute to the household. I recall that children did not pay "full freight" as in 1/5 of the household expenses if there were 5 kids. I think you have a prime example here of how to deal with a major issue before marriage.
I can't imagine how you were able to buy a house with him, and not discuss these issues.

I remember a friend who had to pay for her trip to DisneyWorld (at 16) because her stepfather would not contribute anything. Is this the stepfather you want for your kids? Are you sure.

Gosh, Sunny, you haven’t set a date yet, have you?

I think you two have completely different ideas of what marriage is. It sounds like for you, it’s being in a boat with both people at the ors pulling. The money would be “ours” and the disposable cash would be “ours.” The entertaining and friends would be “ours” and if they weren’t respectful, they would be gone. Your spouse would be part of your family.

It also sounds like your fiancee thinks of marriage as a great way to spend the rest of his life with you and keep everything exactly the same. He’ll pay for himself, and you’ll pay for yourself and your children. He’s marrying you, and will be your husband, but not part of your children’s family. He’ll keep his friends, and have them over whenever he feels like it because he’s paying his share of the household expenses. You can keep your friends too.

I don’t think it’s really about the disposable income for you. I think it goes a lot deeper into what his role in your life and your children’s life will be. BTW, how high on the ranking is your need for financial support? ‘Cause he’s not giving any and doesn’t seem to want to give any.

I imagine you would be much happier if the dialog about vacations went like this:

Sunny, I booked the airplane tickets and I’ve gotten the car. It was a sweet deal.

Oh, snookums, that’s fabulous. I’ll call and make reservations with the hotel. Since you paid for all our flights, let me pay for the hotel and most meals.

You’re the best, Sunny. Just let me take you and the kids out for a special meal one night.

Snookums, that’s so great. We’d love it. But, you must let me treat to cocktails at sunset.

That’s more give-and-take rather than score keeping.


Maybe you should put the wedding on hold until you get some of this ironed out.

That's not the issue. He would be paying some of their expenses if we split the total household 50/50. It would be a problem if we went to dinner or vacation or Christmas or shopping for clothing. Then I would always be putting out 100% of mine and their expenses and he would only have his own - thus he would essentially have more disposable cash for his hobbies than I ever would...



We did - we were supposed to open a joint account and it just never happened. Then he started talking like it would never ever happen and I freaked.



No. But he is generous to others why wouldn't he be generous to his own "family"?

V

GG - I haven't set a date. Probably because we talk about going to a resort to do the wedding and the honeymoon and neither of us have booked on "our" (ha ha) credit card...

Isn't that ironic, but probably true. He would never ask me to pay and he is hesitant to put it on a card of "his", so he'll wait until I offer...

Bottom line being if the household expenses are even does that mean we split CC bills? I doubt it. This is the area where personal responsibility enters, meaning "You pay for it if you want it".

Your scenario is what I would have in my perfect world - no one hesitates to put in their "fair share", and everyone is generous.

V

Sunny, do you see how you are both looking for something different out of the marriage? And neither of you seems to really trust the other when it comes to money.

If I woke up in your shoes, I'd probably put the wedding on hold until we worked out a detailed plan about how we would handle money in a way that made us BOTH happy.

YOu don't sound very satisfied right now.

Good luck.

It appears to me that the money issue (a very real & troublesome one) is a manifestation of a deeper problem That being he doesn't view himself as part of a family. Instead he is marrying you & YOUR children happen to be part of the package.

It seems he has compartmentalized himself & you & the children. He is mostly concerned with himself, sometimes he's a "we" with you, the children are separate from him all together.

Have you guys considered consulting a financial planner? This would take the difficulty of asking the hard questions out of your hands & it would be clear from what the planner asks how he views your financial future & his role in it.

You're in pretty deep, considering you have purchased a house together. I'd definitely hold off on any wedding plans until you're both satisfied with how the money will work for you, him & the family.

Does the father of your children contribute money?

I would hate to think that but I wonder sometimes.



Well is this something that can change???



We were talking about this already. It would be nice for an "outside" person to give him the same advice.



I know. The topic has ended for now on "let's get a joint account".

I can see his point or what he fears. He fears that I'm going to tell him what he can or can't buy. I'm afraid of footing more than my "share" because he chooses to buy things that wouldn't be on my priority list.

He's just never had to do a budget with another person. It's new to him.



Yes and that money would get thrown into the mix - I'm not trying to withhold available cash. Just trying to work as a team.

V.

He is not generous, you have just attributed that trait to him. If he were truly generous, it would carry through in other areas of his life. Perhaps it's just payback time with his friends. I know I attributed traits to my X which I witnessed occasionally, but now realize were not part of his true nature.

TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS RELATIONSHIP. YIKES.

And that is said from reading about this for a while.

You stated that with his method (he pays for himself, you pay for yourself and kids) that he will always have more disposable money for his hobbies...

And that is how he might be looking at it. That he SHOULD have more because the kids are YOUR responsibility, not his.

It seems like he's entering this marriage with you -- but not you and your kids. GG is right, this is much more of an issue than just household expenses.

You chose the responsiblity for having the kids.
He didn't. He's not their father. And I'm sure you get into some awkward manly territory issues.

He needs to understand that he's not just marrying you. He is also making the choice to become a step-dad. I have the suspicion that he's not addressing that. He wants to marry you -- thats clear. But being a step-dad is a new identity with new responsibility that he needs to acknowledge, process and embrace!

NOTE TO SUNNY:
(from someone who is, herself, a step-mom)

My current hubby has five children by another woman. That's five children whom I clean for, cook for, do dishes for, do laundry for, and work for! That's five children for whom I was not invited into the discussion to HAVE them...nor did I get the fun of the orgasm to MAKE them. That's five children for whom I now bear some partial responsibility even though I was not present at the beginning to say, "Yes, I'm willing to be their parent." That's five children who already have a FATHER who contributes money and time and work...and a MOTHER who is supposed to contribute money and time and work.

Sunny, I think there are sort of two schools of thought here. There's the "The two PARENTS are responsible to pay for their two kids" school of thought...and there's the "we are a married couple and share everything including each others' kids" school of thought.

When I was first married, my hubby's exW had the kids half the time and had her own way of earning money, so neither one paid child support (CS) or alimony. She contributed to their care--because they were with her half the time--and *WE* contributed to their care because they were with us half the time. Thus, as a newly married person, I thought of the kids as my new hubby's responsibility and I was in the position of his new wife and the lady of the house in our house. Thus, hubby and exW shared the expenses of groceries, clothing, etc. We bought groceries and clothes for at our house...exW bought for her house. "The two parents pay for their children" school of thought...see it?

THEN...exW decided to gradually walk out of the kids' life! Now at first, I was upset because I had two children of my own to care for, and my exH and I paid for them...while new hubby and his exW paid for his kids. Weeeeellll...that did not last long! She went longer and longer between visits, stopped calling them, and didn't offer any kind of support (emotional, financial--nothing). So my kids and his kids were living with us full time, and my exH and his exW were not living up to their parental responsibilities!

Now, I could have been a stickler and said, "My money goes to me and my kids and your money goes to you and your kids" but by living together and being together so much, we began to morph into a family that was blending together. I decided that ALL the children needed a responsible female person in their life, and likewise with a male person. So we have three accounts: his, mine and ours. Paychecks go automatically into the OURS account. From this account we pay our mortgage, bills, and groceries. From this account we write ourselves individual amounts for the HIS account and the MINE account. Anything that is his can go to HIS account (refunds, inheritances, whatever) and same for MINE. But WE work together for our house, for household bills, and to feed our kids. If we shop for shoes for his son, it comes out of his account...or if we shop for shoes for EVERYONE it can come out of OUR account. Before we buy things out of OUR account, we agree to buy it--but anything in HIS account he can spend, give away, or burn in any manner that he desires cuz it's his and I have no claim to it. Likewise for MY account--I may buy or give away or smoke it cuz it's MINE. It's the "we are a married couple and share everything including each others' kids" school of thought--see it?

Sooooo...coming from a step-mom who's a few steps ahead of you, maybe that kind of thing would work for you?

Your friend,



CJ

Wow, CJ, you married well, and learned well, and now have a great marriage, from a responsible point of view, and an interaction point of view. . .

congratulations to you!

wiftty

V,

i will say that you appear to possibly be choosing to be attracted to the same type of man again as you have previously married, and have a fantasy that he will change, or that you will change him. . .

this is my intuition typing, but maybe i have been around here too long. . .

wiftty

This is not about money... this goes much deeper
as nicely said by previous posters...

PS: CJ, it is so nice to 'listen' to you... like a lovely song cuddling the soul...

It was, what, a couple of months ago that we had a thread about serious friendship/protection/boundary issues in this same relationship, wasn't it? Now we see some serious financial/responsibility issues.

For some reason, the word "contraindication" keeps coming to my mind...

I hate to jump on the bandwagon, which is why I did not post earlier, but I do have to agree - having read Sunny's posts over the years, there appear to be many serious issues that are not being resolved, and are clearly building resentment, and are being swept under the rug only to re-emerge on regular intervals.

Sunny, please don't take it the wrong way, because I am truly looking out for your interests - but this relationship, now engagement, seems to me to have some serious issues. I really hope you will consider all of the recent issues you posted about, before progressing any further.

AGG

FWCJ,

This sort of financial arrangement has been discussed. the more I think about it, the more I think I should just keep "my" money. I'm a good manager of cash, and I make bonuses (which according to your plan could be solely mine).

If the subject of money is not discussed however because of arrangements that don't really involve two people - and this is how it would pan out for the two of us seeing as how he doesn't have children, then a big communication gap develops.

I don't think that he is a selfish person by nature, he is just thoughtless because he has never had to deal as a couple before.

At least that is what I want to think...

V.

Lexxy,

He is very generous with his time with the children and makes time to converse with them and let's them "help" him with his manly puttering things. Very patient and kind.

He enjoys the company - he was very lonely before and developed deep attachments to his friends and pets as a substitute for a family.

He is adapting very nicely to being a step dad. He even has come to "understand" the concept of feeding the children dinner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That was a big'un.

V.

GDP,

Yeah, I'm not happy about the whole friend thing which is gradually being substituted by the couples and family things.

He has made huge changes. It's like working with a WS. He wants to change and he is changing - moving toward a better place. If that pesky OP would just stop interfering... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

V.