Been here quite a while now... my prior "main thread" top has become uneditable. for the second time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
(3 month mark, for the second time. cant change subject line on it any more.)

So, starting new one again. migrating latest post from prior, and tweaking subject line, 'cause I'd like some feedback. Hoping the subject line change will catch folks' eye better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
[edited since then, to reflect more recent subject lines]

We went on the weekend trip, with our children. We stayed in a nice two-bedroom cabin in Big Bear: children in one room, us in the other.
Overall, it went really well! I think we both enjoyed the time together. I also enjoyed her cooking, among other things.

We kept it fairly conflict free, apart from the beginning, and the end.

Just before we left; i asked her if she would leave her cellphone behind, so that the weekend could be just about our family. (last trip we went on, the mood got majorly spoiled, when she took text messages, and calls, from other people. One of which was at 10:30pm, and one of which, she decided to hide in the second room, and close the door).

Not only did she refuse.. she also blew up, and gave me a line something like, "I've been cut off from my friends for 10 years! I wont do it again!"

Claiming 10 years was rather extreme. The first 5 years of our marriage (the 10 years) I kept asking and asking if we could do more things with her friends; it was her own choice not to.
The second 5 years, she kept claiming, to me and her family, that "i dont let her have any friends", but she had lots of them (online). She refused to acknowlege that the ones I was objecting to, were the ones that kept coming on to her.


So anyways, that was before we got in the car. After that, things calmed down, and the rest of the trip was quite enjoyable.


On the way back, I asked her how she felt about her currently planned living situation, of living in the remodeled upstairs of her parents house (which she got to design herself), compared to "our" house, potentially remodeled. (she had written to a forum a few months ago, that the construction at her parents' house was going to be her "dream home", whereas in the past, she was enthusiastic about remodelling ours.)
Some interesting discussion there... but the biggest thing that came out, was how us living together wouldn't work out, because it would be "impossible for me to stop trying to control her". The cellphone being the latest example to her of how i could "never change".

I tried to make a comparison with what I had asked for, to if she was out on a dinner date with someone. Asked her if she would keep answering the phone and reading text messages during a time like that.
She said that she would stop and read text messages, and she would not turn her phone off, in that situation.

I expressed my surprise, but acknowleged that it was her choice to behave that way. I asked if she would view the person she was at dinner with as "controlling", if they asked her to turn off her phone after a while.
She said that it would depend on that person's history with her.

I brought up that it's rather difficult for me to try to recover [my image with her], if she always presumes the motivations for my actions are that i'm trying to control her. If she decides I'm trying to "control her" this week, based primarily because i was "trying to control her" last week.... but judgement about my behaviour last week, was only based on the previous week's judgement... and so on, and so on... there's never any room for me to be judged clean.

She basically said, "yes, that's true. there's a lot of stuff to get past... [too much]".

it was really nice that she actually expressed details about her unhappiness; for one thing, she disliked that I "wouldnt take no for an answer, and she 'stopped me' by blowing up at me". I asked her to believe that if she had calmly and quietly said "no", the result would have been the same. She didnt respond to that one.

Any suggestions on how to come together, about the "control issues"?

Techie-

I'm at a loss. So what's your PLAN right now to recovering your marriage and your relationship with your wife?

Ditto what Owl asked. Also, why are you negotiating with the alien? Do you really expect logic and sincerity from someone who has no concept of what those characteristics are?

Please note my slightly updated .sig, at top of thread.
Can't be 100% sure, but she may not be dating anyone right now. As of around our "minigolf with kids" timeframe.

My situation is kinda messy...
However, if this were a vanilla situation, of "a wife moves out to be with OM... wife breaks up with OM after X months... wife still doesnt want to move back in with husband, because of 'control issues'" as per what I wrote above...
What would people's advice be?

My wife is not behaving like an "alien". She talks nicely to me. She shows me some consideration. Yeah, there are still moments of "what the heck are you saying?" like that 10 years bit. But the majority of the time when we talk now, it seems to be real dialog now.

She says she views me as "controlling". I believe her, and understand why she has had that view of me in the past.
She says she has bad memories of our house. I believe her.

She also says, that she is trying to work through some of the bad memories at our house.
I believe her about that, too.

techie, show me one WS who doesn't view the BS as controlling. She is still talking and acting like a WS even though she may not be with an OM right now.

My WW is nice to me also when she is appeased and not confronted on boundary issues, but see what happens when you set a boundary that she doesn't like or agree with...her true colours will come out.

You will know when you can place a "F" in front of their name...just ask many of the FWS or BS here who have experienced it.

Most BS's are the least controlling people around and the only reason a WS would suggest a BS is controlling is to be free to conduct themselves independently of the M.

The difference(?) in our case being, that she has accused me of being controlling, for our ENTIRE MARRIAGE. Not just since she decided to have romances with other men.

I've only recognized the truth of some of it, since coming to MB, etc. I dont agree that everything she thinks was 'controlling', actually was. But I do see that some of it was.
I'm working on modifying behaviours of mine that I see as controlling.

Any females out there feel like chiming in? Seems like this is more commonly a "woman complaining about man" issue, and i'd really like to hear a female opinion about all this.

Techie, good luck to you. I hope you do manage to resolve the adultery and get on with your marriage.

Techie...I'm gonna call it like I see it. 2x4 incoming.

I don't believe that your situation has any real hope at all of turning into a recovered marriage. I'm pretty sure that the two of you stand a HUGE chance of ending up as "friends". In fact...that's the only possible outcome I can see to your situation, given your 'plan'.

Whether or not she's WW right now almost doesn't matter. The fact is, she's running the show, and nothing she's doing is giving your M any chance of recovery. She's got the perfect setup...basically an open marriage, in which she's got a H who will standby while she carries on in any fashion she chooses, and does nothing to change the situation to cause her to want to change her current situation. Your there when she wants a 'fix' of you...and you're not when she doesn't. She's completely capable of going online, seeking any kind of relationship she wants there, and you'll be right there, waiting for her to share her attention with you.

Why would she ever consider changing this?!?!?!

Bluntly, you can expect this to be your relationship for just as long as you accept it. It sounds to me as though you're used to it...I guess that's a good thing.

So...what is it you WANT from her? From your relationship? And what are you doing to get it? Do you really, EVER see her giving you what you want...given how good she's got it now?

OK...2x4 done. Shutting up now. I've said all that can be said.

aaand.. you would suggest.. what?
"plan B"?

If i were to go to that, as a result of "me not getting what I want"... that would be an effort to control her.
She would see it that way... and frankly, I would agree with her that it would be.

I will go to plan B, when I am willing to give up on her.
I am not willing to give up on her right now. I'd like to continue to negotiate with her, on what she might want to see in a good marriage.


Why would she want to stop what she's doing now, in exchange for something that she doesnt currently envision making her long-term happy?
Answer me that one, eh?


I do see changes from her. Small ones. but changes, in the last 2 weeks. I hope they will stick, and keep going.
Those changes are from talking, not from strategic pressure.

My goal is not to maneouver her into coming back. My goal is to show her that we can make a marriage together that will make us both happy. plan B, would not accomplish that.

As someone puts in their sig: "i didnt make [my spouse] come back... i made them want to come back".

techie, does she allow you to touch her?

Umm.... odd question to ask right now, seems like <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... but ok, i'll answer... yes.

loong time ago now, when she first moved out, she would shie(?) away from even a touch. (well, actually, I think i just wouldnt dare even try to touch her, her distaste for me was so open).
But now, that doesnt seem to be a problem. Hasnt been for a few months now, I think.

I can pat her back randomly. Or, fairly commonly now, give her a back rub or something when she comes over on our wednesday dinner nights.

last night, when I dropped off the children to her, I reached out to hold her hand for a moment, and then told her that I missed my family.
She didnt pull her hand away.

on her showing some consideration to me... interestingly, i noticed something positive about this just yesterday.

I think that I mentioned to her a loooong time ago, that I didnt like the way that she sometimes "controlled" ME, by speaking indirectly to the kids with phrases like, "maybe your father will do that for you", and then expecting me to just do it. ie: asking me to do something, without actually *asking* me to do it.

yesterday, she initially used those same type of words to one of our boys... but then followed it up with, "ok then, ask daddy for it".

It was really nice. A very looong-standing thing, that bugged me a LOT. I felt as though I wasnt being treated as a faceless serving machine, in that moment.

She usually shows me a good amount of personal consideration, when we're actually doing things together these days. This stood out as something extra-noticable, though. A change, that meant something extra to me.

I'm in the same boat.

Wondering if my wife is out of the fog.

The control issues talk doesn't sit right. Like many have said, pushing the boundaries usually exposes whether they are truly for the marriage or not.

Like you, I am afraid to find out.

Just having her be civil at the moment is enough. lol

Maybe after a week more, I'll ask whether she wants to consider moving back home.

This is my observation about people who have controll issues.

They sort of get it. They "get" that things don't just "happen" they understand that choices influence options and that people can [sometimes] be influenced to make choices favorable to the selection of options we like.

This is approximately where they get lost.

They fail to understand what is their property and what is not and they fail to respect the consequences for trying to manage what does not belong to them.

Usually people who are controlling are also being controlled because they are so focussed on what does not belong to them that they fail to protect and defend what DOES...lol. Then they feel anxious and redouble their efforts in the wrong territory and set a power struggle in motion which wastes a lot of time and creates resentments.

So my advice to anyone who says to themselves.."self...I have control issues" is to first learn WHAT belongs to them and what does not. There are several things that you do have authority over and it's legit..in fact you SHOULD be in control of these areas of your life [and chances are that you aren't].

Learning to control your focus and efforts to your own property both keeps what is yours safe and keeps you from treading on someone else.

A wife who is complaining about being "controlled" by her husband, usually does not appreciate that she herself has chosen a controlling man because it suits her to remain weak.

revise this to say ... UNLESS the wife is living under Taliban rule and wearing a burka and facing flogging for any violation of the rules

but in AMERICA .... women are free to choose their very own "controlling" marriage

Because if what she's doing now isn't so comfortable, it'll motivate her to change her situation into one more comfortable.

And I AM starting to wonder if you need to do a plan B, Techie.

Because as I said, I see you living like this for the rest of your life. I don't see any indication in your situation that it will ever improve. If you change nothing, nothing changes. What's changed in your situation...what change have you instigated, in the last several months? Nothing that I could detect by reviewing your lengthy blogs here.

I'm done. I'll no longer post to your threads. Good luck.

Thank you, everyone, for the comments so far. I would welcome additional ones.

A parting comment to Owl:

[color:"green"] Why would she want to stop what she's doing now, in exchange for something that she doesnt currently envision making her long-term happy? [/color]

[color:"blue"] Because if what she's doing now isn't so comfortable, it'll motivate her to change her situation into one more comfortable. [/color]

I dont understand the basis of what you are saying here. I'm not sure how that addresses what I wrote.

Yes, it is logical that "if her current situation doesnt make her happy, she will look for a different situation". However, why would she choose "being with me", as a replacement 'situation', if right now she believes she couldn't be happy with me? I certainly wouldn't choose "being together", if I thought I'd be miserable being together again.
Seems like she would just choose "none of the above", in that case.

Does Mrs Techie believe that she cannot be happy with you long term or does she believe that she cannot be happy with you long term if you insist on maintaining boundaries?

If it is the latter, then all she needs to do is break your adherence to those boundaries. One way to do that is to accuse you of being controlling when you enforce your boundaries. If she is applying force to propel you in a certain direction, then you apply another force to change that direction, it will feel like your force is acting on her force and because the direction changes, she can say you are controlling her. (yeah it is confusing me too but I think it makes sense)