omwh,

For what it's worth, I have no doubt that your intentions are good.

Do you agree that if Zach's W were to come home right now that he has done enough work to be able to avoid hurting her again?

He freely admits that he escaped consequences for his prior infidelities and that doing so enabled him to continue being selfish and destructive.

When you read Zach's words, do you see the consistent theme still being what he wants, rather than respecting his W's wishes?

Do you see Zach taking to heart the 2X4's he has been given and really working on those issues or do you see the way he passively agrees and then continues doing as he pleases?






This MIL is being cozy to a man who ripped her daughter's heart out. That is suspect to me. It would take a heck of a lot more - in actions and time before I would give my blessing and approval of a marriage like this for my own daughter (who is Zach's W's age, btw). Yikes! I suddenly feel really old.

Froz:

I don't really know enough about him or his situation to be able to answer your first question. All I know is what he posts.

I really don't see that theme. I think that people on this site want to be married to their spouse and they also want their spouse to want to be with them. I am assuming that Zach wants his wife to continue to be married to him but because she wants to, not because she is doing it to make him happy. I don't know of anyone who wants to be married to a spouse that doesn't want to be married to them and is only doing it to meet their spouse's selfish needs. There may be, I just don't know them.

I don't know enough about her to characterize her behavior as being cozy. I have not heard every conversation she had with him. If she is cozying him because she disregards her daughter, or makes light of marital infidelity, of course I am not in favor of that. I just think it is presumptuous to guess that based on the bits of information we have.

I am a BS myself, so I don't want to give the impression that I take infidelity lightly. On the contrary.

I do see that he was given very specific steps that he needed to take and he has taken them, and continues to take them. I support anyone making positive steps to change themselves.

I have seen a lot of people on here leap to conclusions with very little information. Reminds me of my first year in college when I received my evaluation at the end of the year. Professors complained that I was spending all of my time doing homework, and needed to be more well rounded by getting to know the other students. They "guessed" this by looking at my grades, which were straight A's. They did not know that I had spent more time on homework when I was in the 3rd grade, but if they had taken the time to get to know me, they would have.

BTW, my daughter is close to his wife's age, but thank goodness, currently resides with all girls! The day that changes I will certainly not sleep as well!!

OMYH- I wouldnt say a small town but its not a large city like charlotte or anything. Its more on the medium side. But most people our age knows everyone.


Frozen- If my W came home today I now know what I need to do to be a great husband to her and this experience has taught me so much and I now realize my W means the world to me and Ill never do anything to lose her.


The MIL is very disappointed yes, we didnt talk for a while after this happened. Like I said shes a very caring person and yes shes concerned about our past and our future. Its not like she blows it off like nothing happened. She really believes im a different Zach that shes met 4 years ago.


Yes we're very young! lol

She will be 20 on the 18th <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Zach:

Don't think that any of this is age related! I realize you are young, but people can make good and responsible choices when they are young, and foolish choices in the later years.

I wish I could say that it gets easier but in some ways it gets more difficult as you get older.

There used to be this show on TV called Shalom in the Home. I guess didn't get as many viewers as Paris Hilton's show, because it is gone. One of the things that the rabbi on there used to say is life is 10 per cent what happens, and 90 per cent how we react. Something to think about.

Onmyway- Yes that is something to think about. Our decisions and actions mostly determine what happen. I know im young but I dont blame my age for what has happened. Im a very mature 20 year old.

Ive always made good decisions (besides infidelity) and always have stayed out of trouble and have a great job.


Havent heard from the W today at all. I think she got mad at me last night. I stopped by McDonalds cause I was on my motorcycle and saw a friend on his. Then one guy pulled up I hung out with when I was with the OW. My wife pulled into the carwash beside McDonalds. And I txted her and asked if thats her over there? She said yes, is that you? I answered Yes. She said is that Nates truck (Which is the guy that hung out with me and the OW) so i think that made her pretty mad and she didnt say anything else since to me.

But this is going to be an emotional rollercoaster and have to take it one day at a time.


It confused me how she acted yesterday though, she took seperation papers out on me one week, then the next after not talking to her for that week, shes nice, and talked her head off to me my whole lunch break.

Zach,

My concern is for both you AND your W.

When someone has an infection, the consequences are that they feel physically horrible. They take antibiotics and within about 24 hours, they feel better. So they stop taking their medication and they ignore advice to slow down and take it easy and to follow the proper procedures before they resume their regular schedule.

Same applies here.

Remember when I told you that it doesn't matter if you "meant" to cause harm and it doesn't matter if you knew better or not? And that it was like handing a toddler a loaded gun and hoping that they won't hurt themselves with it?

The consequences will still be there for you unless you follow proper procedure and do the work to heal yourself.

You didn't have several affairs because you didn't love your wife or because you didn't want to be married. Lots of people have doubts about whether or not they want to be married and they don't cheat.

You had an affair because of a particular mindset. And unless that ENTIRE mindset changes and protective measures are in place, there will be consequences for you and for anyone who cares about you.

There is no quick fix. It's a process and it isn't one that happens as rapidly as this.

omwh,

I can understand and empathize with a dislike of being unfairly judged. I really, really do. But there is no harm in advising Zach to respect the choice that his W has already made and repeatedly pushing his agenda despite what she tells him she wants is manipulation.



Feeling your pain. My DD19 moved out (again) 3 days ago. Worry, worry, worry.

Frozen its fine, I understand what your saying, its going to be a long procedure to change. Once we get back together IF we do. You will not see me disappear from here, this is like a new home to me. I will not stop the changes and I will continue them and keep taking advice from you guys!


I hope I never have a girl as a child lol. I know if I did I would love her dearly and never want to take it back but I would be worried to death 24/7 with a teenage daughter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

zach & omwh

Reminds me of a story I heard.
There was a family in a storm shelter during a tornado. After the storm passed the dad climbed out of the cellar to proclaim with great joy that "wasn't it great the storm is past" then smiled and walked over to his neighbors house and started helping them clean up. All the while his own family were busy trying to clean the wreckage of their own home, that had been severly damaged as well.

ZACH - you better start listening to the vets. on this post and recognize you are not well, you are not recovered, you have a ton of work to do on yourself. YOU ARE A WAYWARD just like me and require more help the MBer's way.

?? Do you have a professional counselor you are seeing??

?? Have you read the book "Love Busters" yet and filled out the 20 or 30 pages of questionaires?????

?? What other books have you read???

?? Have you compiled a list of all those whom you have harmed by having all these multiple affairs??

?? Do you have an action list of things needing completed to improve yourself??

I have many questions, but lets start here.

ZACH & OMWH

Seasoned vets do not require the entire puzzle to be built in order to see the same picture over and over and over again........
They only require a small peice........

And NO it is not presumptuous for a vet at MBer's to coach the MB way even with only a little info. - especially to foggy waywards

IMHO What is presuptuous is for newbies like us to shut the door on any vet's.......it is our role as newbies to hold the door open step aside and listen and learn.

?? Do you have a professional counselor you are seeing??

Yes. Im talking with my pastor who has been counsleing for a long time and has read a lot of Dr. Harley's books as well as many others. Thing is my W will not take a step to talk with him. He calls her and she doesnt return his calls. We went to counsleing individually for about a month. I still go on tuesdays and speak with him at church wed. and sundays. And almost everyother day or say on the phone.

Ive asked my W several times to do the counseling with the Harley's but I dont think shes willing to do that. Shes more focused on herself right now and is unsure if she wants to work on this marriage.


?? Have you read the book "Love Busters" yet and filled out the 20 or 30 pages of questionaires?????

I bought the book surviving an affair for both of us to read, she hasnt touched it yet. Im reading it as of now. My pastor gave me a book to read "Every Mans Battle". He also gave my W a book to read not sure what it is, but he told me its about dealing with emotions.


?? Have you compiled a list of all those whom you have harmed by having all these multiple affairs??

A list of people? No. Ive basically hurt the same people in all of them it seems. My W and Family.


?? Do you have an action list of things needing completed to improve yourself??

Yes. Some pages back it was Meremortal I think that gave me a list, and ive done all of them almost. Ive done the NC letter, apology letter, and Changed #'s.

Is he a licensed counselor???

Also you are toooo focused on your wife and what she is doing.
I am only asking specifically what YOU are doing.

IMHO you need to schedule marriage coaching with the Harley's then humbly invite your W and if not begin the coaching regardless, even on your own....this would be a starting point in self improvement....

[quote?? Have you read the book "Love Busters" yet and filled out the 20 or 30 pages of questionaires?????


[/quote]

Is this a no then????

Do you own the books "his needs, her needs" ????

Do you own the book "love busters"???

If not, are you willing to buy them and study them????

I think pastors have to be licensed counslers? I know for a fact out of peoples mouths that hes a great cousnler and everything he says is just as the Harley's suggest ect. He helps us both when we go.


Yes ive been wanting to speak with the Harley's but right now my money is way to tight to be able to spend almost $200 every time. Ill try my hardest im already working 6 10 hour days a week!

Yes I may be focused on my W a little too much at times. But I mean ive talked to her once in a week, im going to be wondering and such and I just let it out on here at times so maybe a BS might chime in about what shes going through or their opinions.

Im still doing what I need to do to be a better husband for her and a better person in the future. Im not going out with my friends to clubs ect. Ive turned them down several times now. I attend church every wed. and sunday. I go to counsleing and am reading several books. I accepted god in my life and pray to him everyday. Im listening to you guys advice to change myself.

[quote?? Have you compiled a list of all those whom you have harmed by having all these multiple affairs??

A list of people? No. Ive basically hurt the same people in all of them it seems. My W and Family.


[/quote]

I would ask you to evaluate and compile a list of the many others you have harmed by spewing lies to them and asking others to lie for you to cover your actions.......
Such as friends, co-workers, your boss who pays you while you are busy texting/chat rooming etc. and stealing/cheating him from the work you were to be performing for your pay.
and any others - if you can spend time reflecting on this..

Are you willing to truly look at th mess you left behind, those injured, from the tornado that you became and still are at times....?

Can you list out specifics of what you have done and are willing to do......this requires reflection and professional help at times to accomplish??????

You can pretty much pick a thread and start reading to see what a BS goes through Zach.

On the one hand, I am impressed that you are here, I think your heart is in the right place and you are trying.

On the other hand, I really feel like you just aren't GETTING IT. You do and you try and you act as if you do, but it seems like each time you are presented with an opportunity to demonstrate it towards your W, you revert back to your old ways of manipulation.

Your W is moving on. Good for her, really. No kids and multiple infidelities?! Get real bro, why should she stay?

She's leaving the door cracked ever so slightly, and you can bet your [censored] she's watching every thing you do, taking it all in, and coming away with the same impression the rest of us here are coming away with: nice guy, really wants to get it, but doesn't.

When you apologize, its not real. Its a tool to get her to react to you. When you buy a book, its not for you to read and absorb, its for HER to read and react to. When you see a counselor, its to try to show her that you're changing and to get her to go too.

And that Zach, isn't GETTING IT.

Yeah. What Tyk said.

No - Pastors and ministers do not need a license to do counseling - regretfully!!

........but there are a few who do have a degree in counseling ........

Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with you when you tell me my apology isnt REAL.. I would lay down and cry every single night because I was so sorry for what ive done. NOT because my wife is just leaving me possibly, but because I cant believe I done something like that to such a great person. Why would she stay? Probably because she loves me to death. I could tell u 100 reasons why she wouldnt stay but that doesnt mean she dont love me enough to possibly give it time and try?

Like she said, shes focused on this job right now and then she will go on from there. She was susposed to her something today but they still arent sure if shes getting it yet! I hope she does! Shes really excited about it and I dont want more bad news come into her life.
I bought her a book for HER to read not for her to react? Why would I buy her a book to react.I bought the book for her to read because ALL OF YOU suggest it and I thought it would be helpful for her cause I mean it is about affairs?? I mean if u look, I may not be doing every single thing perfectly but Im trying my damn best, I mean im not going to do everything PERFECT. You all suggest for us to read that book. So dont turn that around on me.

I bought 2 book, ones for me and one for her, im reading mine she isnt? Im going to a counsler so I can talk about my freaking feelings and what im going through, we dont really discuss what my W and him talk about. We talk about changing me. See I can ****** do anything without being critized. Ive done everything you guys tell me to do and I try my freaking best at it. But I cant EVER do anything good enough, you always find a way to take something I do that you told me to do and turn it around about how badly I did it and Judge me.

Im sorry but when you tell me im NOT sorry that really offends me.

Ive taken a few deep breaths now....


I would still love for all of you to continue posting on my thread and help me get through this rough times.


Hope all is having a good day.

Zach,

Our goal here is to HELP you. Sometimes WS's are thick skulled and need bashed over the head.

The post above hints at the first bit of honesty I have seen from you. But it only hints. You have to dig deeper, Zach. I know it hurts to go there. But you have to if you truly want to become a man of integrity.

Go back a read your entire thread tonight with a pad of paper by your side. Take a good, hard, honest look. For this exercise, I would like you to skip onmywayhome's posts. I disagree with most of the things he has told you to do, and he is not advising or is confused on MBer principles. (I don't mean disrespect to you OMWH, but I want him to examine this through MB principles.)

Everytime you come across something you were told to do and haven't done or your find a question you haven't answered, write them down on your paper. When you are done, take a break. Let your mind settle. Then go back to the list later and post here what you found. OK? Will you do that?

We have seen some actions from you, but they are always accompanied by a motive to get your BW to feel something or do something or react in a certain way. We want to see you strip through all of that manipulating behavior, and get down to the bare bones of who you are.

Do you see yet that writing an apology and then pressing her to answer you about reconciliation is using an apology to get what you hope is the desired result. That IS manipulation. That is not yet a sincere apology. Do I think you are sincerely sorry? I tend to think you are. Do I think you have sincerely apologized? No.

Do you see the difference in that?