Or as much of it as I can get down...

Summer 2000 - W tells me she wants a divorce. I suspect an affair, but have no evidence or proof. I discovered MB and posted here frequently as Fishguy. With a lot of support, and the mutual crisis of losing an unintended pregnancy at the same time, we healed the wounds and grew closer.

Summer 2002 - W tells me she wants to have a baby...I agree. I later have strong reason to believe that she was already pregnant when she started the discussion. I vow never to let her know that I'm aware of it.

March 2003 - My DD is born. Our little family grows closer and for the first time I know what it means to have a truly fulfilling life with a new purpose as a father.

2006 - W changes jobs to be closer to home.

April 2007 - W loses her job due to personality conflict with management. In March she is given an ultimatum to find another job, and doesn't. She is subsequently fired. We were on the cusp of financial problems at the time. To reassure her, I borrow money against my pension to keep the bills paid and assure her that we'll get through it, however long it takes. I also try to initiate SF, but she's not interested. Says she's not ready.

Summer 2007 - W is still not employed. I'm trying my hardest to deal with limited DS while trying to keep us above water financially. I confront W and tell her "I don't understand why I come home to a sinkful of dirty dishes and a messy home when you're here all day". It was a major LB. She calls me judgmental. Still no SF.

Fall 2007 - 1 cat (hers) and 1 dog (mine) have to be put down due to old age and failing health. It's a hard time for all of us and DD comes through it with surprising maturity. I negotiate buying a new puppy which W agrees to. October and November bring exorbitant cell phone bills - she apologizes and I write it up to her having long conversations with her sister, as has been her habit. She returns to work in October. Tensions are mounting with the new job and new puppy, nevertheless we have a very happy Christmas. Still no SF.

January 2008 - A second dog (hers) needs to be put down. Shortly after she talks about adopting a puppy. I tell her I have reservations about having 2 new pups at the same time and ask her to wait. She proceeds, knowing I won't say no. The newest puppy is a real problem to housebreak. Still poops the crate almost daily - I have to clean up because I'm the first one home (or I have to sleep in a room that smells like poop). I withdraw. Still no SF.

February 2008 - I initiate a discussion about how to deal with the puppy mess. My suggestion is rejected because she doesn't think it will work and is not willing to try. I withdraw further...still no SF.

March 10 - I again try to discuss the puppy. I tell her we need to solve the problem or the puppy needs to go. She resents being given an ultimatum and tells me that the puppy isn't going - the implication being that I could leave. I verbalized that ("so then we need to talk about me leaving") and she became further enraged. She stalked off ending the argument. I later apologize and tell her that I said what I said out of anger.

March 11 - While sitting at work agonizing about how bad things have gotten, I start having chest pains. At my age and with my family history, this scares the bejesus out of me and I go to the ER. W is called. By the time she gets to the hospital (which is where I work BTW) heart attack has been ruled out. When she finds that I'm not being admitted, she says "I'll see you at home" and leaves.

There haven't been any further conflicts since then, but it has been very uncomfortable. Yesterday, I got up the stones to look at the phone records. I saw a number that I recognized because the auto shop called the house on Friday about some work being done to her car. As I went back I saw the number more and more. I found that from September 11 to October 10 (when the first high bill arrived) she had spent 945 minutes on the phone in 70-something calls.

So here I am reeling. Last night, I faked a computer problem at a friend's house (who is also a lawyer, and a father figure to me) and went to him for advice. I won't ask him to represent me because he has a relationship with W too (in fact, we are supposed to have dinner with him and his wife Saturday afternoon). The hardest thing was to act like nothing was wrong. I didn't want to let her know I knew about it until I had a clear enough head to know what I wanted to do. Now I'm thinking I need to confront her, and I need to do it today. Leaving it out there is making me a wreck. I've been puking all day, and I really think I'm on the verge of a breakdown. It feels like more than I can handle.

I don't know yet what I want. I love her enough that if she said that she wants to fix it, I think I'd be open to it, if she agrees to the Harleys' methods. But I also have serious doubts about whether I can trust anything she says. On the other hand, she may just say "yeah, I'm having an affair and it's about time you found out - I want out." If it were just me and her, I could rest easy with that - but not with a child.

So as I said over on JFO - I expect to be here quite a bit. I'm going to need a lot of support and friendship, which I remember being here for the asking. I feel like I'm coming apart at the seams, and I'm doing the best I can.

Man, I'm so sorry to hear about your situation.

The first thing you need to do is get PROOF of the affair and EXPOSE it to everyone- family, friends, his employer, everyone. Then you need to consult with an attorney and protect yourself legally. Once those steps are taken, you can decide whether you want to stay in this marriage.

Remember, kids come first. Also, this woman is not your wife, she is a WW and is in the fog, so anything she says could either be a lie or total nonsense. From now on think about your children and yourself FIRST.

2L2F

Welcome back. I'm sorry you had to come back.

If you've been here before, then you know the drill. Get your evidence, expose, Plan A (if you want to stay) then plan B if necessary.

It sounds like she was egging you on. Baiting you every chance she got to start fights. She's looking for excuses...justification. Don't give it to her.

I remember the agony of being in limbo. It's terribly hard. Get what you need and confront her.

Did she have an A before too? If yes, did she ever admit it? Was it ever addressed?


Why did you choose to not talk about the pregnancy years ago?

Won't have time to post much until tomorrow. Confronted her this afternoon - she denied PA but semi-acknowledged EA. We're communicating. Nothing but small talk this evening, but we're spending family time. I'll post a full update tomorrow while she is at work.

2L2F:

Isn't this Dday number 2? Or 3?

And NO SF for 4-5 years?

Since, maybe, the day after DD was concieved?

Fishguy? Time to fish or cut bait with this woman.

Really.

You have endured SO MUCH.

And she has enjoyed having you in this position.

And she has some serious problems to be addressed.

Why did she lose her job? She was asked to leave? Was she in the middle of something at her former workplace? Another EA/PA?

But not performing on the job is a sign of depression.
And not caring about the dishes, the household in general, probably herself, and YOU leads to that conclusion.

And you can help, but it's up to her to address it.

Did she EVER get with the MB principles or did she ignore them?

Time to MAN-UP.

She has got to be one fabulous woman for this. Yes, you have a child, but she really likes the cat-bird seat. Time to work you way in to that seat.

LG

I have sufficient proof of a relationship - call records going back 6 months show way more ohone time than is appropriate. Sept Oct of last year they averaged 2 calls a day, with an average of 1/2 hour per day. Nobody's car needs that much attention.

I confronted her with it yesterday afternoon on the phone. She claims that all they did was bulls**t about kids. I told her I didn't believe her, and she said "you can believe what you want to believe". I said I HAD been believing what I wanted to believe and that's why it took me so long to find out. Given that I can not now believe ANYTHING she says, she did say some positive things. She said she does want to stay married and does want to go to counselling. She also said that she would agree to never have contact with him again, "if that's what it would take." I said it would take a lot more than that but it was a start. I ended the call by telling her I loved her - if I didn't, I wouldn't be hurting as much as I am and I would be talking to a lawyer. She said she loves me too and she wants to fix it. Said that if she wanted to leave, she would have long ago. That's the one thing she said that I mostly believe.

Homecoming last night was surreal. Neither of us knew what to expect after the phone call, so I just gave her a hug - which she didn't avoid, but didn't return. I had decided that Plan A needs to start immediately - if only just to reassure myself that I'm DOING something. I didn't push talking about our marriage and she didn't initiate anything either. I spent most of the night making sure I was in the same room with her and making small talk. Conversation is definitely on her top 5 and quite possibly the highest (30 minutes a day on the phone BS'ing about kids?) so I decided that this was the EN that I need to focus on for now. Affection is up there too, but I don't feel she'll accept it from me yet. I feel like if I bring up the marriage in conversation, I will LB and so I'm avoiding it - don't know if that is good or bad. We went to bed last night (I decided that sleeping in another room might not be a good idea just yet) both having said I love you. Part of my Plan A is the goal of saying ILU a minimum of 5 times a day. Not counting the confrontation phone call, I made 3 last night.

Important lessons to remember - she is in the fog. I try not to react.

LG:

There was no affair the first time around (I still believe that, but acknowledge that it may not be true), so no - this is D-day number 1.

SF has been non-existent since she lost her job last April - coming up on 1 year. Before that, it was not enough, but it happened. Maybe once every 2 months or so.

I've endured a lot, yes. But I came to a realization yesterday that was the reason I called to confront her - I realized that I DO love her. At first, I thought that the only reason not to "cut bait" was my daughter. If that's the only reason, it's the wrong reason. If I didn't still love her, my daughter would probably grow up happier with us apart. I am prepared for that...but right now, I still love her, and as long as that is the case I will continue to try.

She lost her job because she had an ethical conflict with the way the organization treated their clients. I don't know any more than what she told me. It may be that she was a bull in a china shop and that didn't go over...I don't know and I never will. It doesn't matter. I do believe that she has suffered on and off from depression (definitely after she lost her job), but at the time she lost her job she was not depressed...she was angry about the conflict, but not depressed.

The first time around, she got with the MB principles once it was clear we were recovering - resisted at first. I haven't mentioned it yet, but I think tonight I will ask her to her fill out an EN questionnaire and leave it at that for today and continue to Plan A.

And yes, LG ... she IS one fabulous woman. Behind all my pain, anger, resentment and grief, I can tell you that she IS a fabulous woman. She IS worth it. I hope she thinks I am too, even if she doesn't right now.

OK, so today I saw the Dr. to get my Zoloft script increased and get some Ambien to help me sleep. Talked to him about what was going on and he agrees with my strategy. Spent a good chunk of the day reading SAA. Went next door to expose everything to the neighbor, who is a good friend to both of us.

Exposure is difficult, but I am doing it as much as I can. It's tiring to tell the whole story again and again, and it doesn't get easier with the telling. Each time I have been wracked with nausea again before we're done. It also contradicts my instinct to protect W from embarassment. I know that it's the right thing to do and will do it, but that doesn't make it easy.

Also called W this afternoon to tell her about my Dr. visit and my plans to get DD early from daycare today, as she is coming down with a cold. Asked W for a date Friday night and offered to get a sitter (one of the positive side effects of exposure is that you get lots of support and lots of volunteers for babysitting). She waffled and said we'd play it by ear because she is concerned about DD's being sick. Also complained she does not see enough of DD during the week. This bugs me because one of our biggest obstacles is that DD stays up pretty late, leaving us with no alone time. It's one of the things we definitely need to address, and I see no reason why the neighbor can't stay with DD in our house while we go out - sick or not. But I'm not arguing or pushing - agreed to play it by ear.

Man I'm frikkin' tired and it's only just starting.....

Going to give W the ENQ in a few minutes. Wish me luck - I'm really nervous.

I haven't read your thread yet, but I remember the first time that Mimi had me do something in Plan A I didn't think I could do it.

But she kept telling me that Plan A and saving my marriage was MY Plan. You can't control what W does, but you can control how you react or don't and know that you are fighting a tough fight right now.

You have us, and especially G-d on your side. What could be better than that?

Thanks QNL

The ENQ went over like a lead balloon. W said "what about counselling" and I said I definitely want to do that too, but I need your help in changing the things about me that need to change. She said she'd look at it, but made no promises to fill it in. Said she was skeptical of questionaires because of her work (she's a behaviorist that works w/ autistic adults). That doesn't make sense to me because she uses them all the time in making behavior plans for work. I told her I'd get a list of counsellors from the insurance company today and we could pick one together. She said OK.

My attempts at affection this morning were rejected. She seems angry.

Gosh I was really hoping for more feedback

If you have to, fill out the survey for her - use your best guess.
If you have HNHN, and have read it, use the descriptions in the book and what you know about her to fill in the blanks for her.

Then start working on what you believe are her top three needs.

You can do a fairly good job of this without her, and then fine tune if and when she gets on board.

SS

Thanks SS. I'm pretty sure that her top 2 are Conversation and Affection. She's not very receptive of affection from me right now, but I'm trying anyway, without pushing or judging if I'm turned away. I'm also trying to spend time in small talk to boost that need if I can. At least in looking at the ENs I've been most deficient in, these seem to be the biggies. I don't really know where her head is now, so I can't really guess about the others. She's in the fog so I don't expect her to communicate much, but a start would be reassuring. I did get her the list of MCs covered by insurance so hopefully we can make progress there.

Have you ever gotten a DNA test done on the child from 2001? You stated you suspected an affair prior to her birth (2000; her stating all of a sudden she wanted a baby then she is already pregnant. Couple that with a inactive sex life (even affection) and it doesn't sound good. Good Luck.

Only 1 child, from 2003. She's mine.

We had a good day today. Spent 1/2 an hour on the phone making small talk and about 10 minutes talking about counselling. Circumstances and availability have narrowed our choices to one that is covered by insurance. We're going to talk more later about scheduling and I'll call the MC in the morning. We're all having dinner out tonight and have a dinner visit scheduled tomorrow to some friends who are aware of the situation. W doesn't know that both of them are aware and probably suspects that the H in the couple knows. He's like a father to me and his W is very close to my W. I'm hoping that some opportunities for mediating by relay will happen. Either way, it will be much easier to Plan A in a social situation, which was why I also suggested dinner out tonight.

I'm hopeful for a good weekend...W was pretty receptive to my Plan A-ing today, and I hope it continues through the weekend. I'm back at work Monday and need a good weekend to be prepared to work.

Are you also trying to elimminate the LBs? Do you know what things you do that are LBs?

Just wanted to add...if she is active in an EA or PA MC will most likely not help as you might hope. Until there is NC, all the MC in the world won't help recover your M. The A has to be over.

Yes - Disrespectful Judgments is probably the biggest, but I usually only do it when we fight. I'm being careful not to fight and even more careful not to judge. I'm also unilaterally following the PJA on all decisions. The helpful thing about Plan A is that it forces me to consider everything from her point of view, and I'm trying really hard at that - I think if I succeed most of the time it makes it hard to LB. One day at a time though...her moods change quickly, so I need to know when to back off.