BIO,

Honestly, I can't know what would have been different for me had my father admitted to his As...because he cheated for most of both of his marriages...including 20+-years in a couple of EAs with women in different countries.

He went NC, I believe, finally, in the last six years, I believe.

When I say I can't imagine what would have been different for me is because infidelity was a part of my life from the beginning...I am an OC...given up for adoption...I knew my adopted dad wasn't acting right with other women at parties...when I was four, five and six years old...and I listened to my stepmother tell me of his As when I was 9-years-old, though he has never addressed them with me, at any time; and I heard again her discovery of the same ones 29 years later (thereabouts).

I have not been O&H with my father about his infidelities to this day. It has come up, I had opportunity...my sister recently left her third BH for her AP. My tongue has been stuck in my throat...I know the steps and I'm not acting because of my fear.

I'm working on it. Maybe I'll have a better idea after I talk about infidelity with my father...I plan to do so.

What I know is knowing and not knowing as a child...seeing the consequences of infidelity all around me...the hellacious fights, the streams of tears...tension in silence, in communication...and then next day, okay and back again, into pain time. Kids take the rollercoaster, too. Only we don't know why were on it, where the getting off point will be or if it will come.

And we know when people are hiding stuff...we interrupt conversations, there are sudden diverting questions, exclamations...we know and naturally assume it's about us; information is being kept from us. We, too, are excluded.

Thing about not troubling others is you take their choice from them. And then punish the kids for not telling you when they have torn up a note from their teacher for you; or failed a test or a class. Their lies have logical consequences imposed by the parent; parental lies have natural consequences, too.

I definitely think that's a principle decision to think long and hard about when you are recoverying from an A...when both of you can say, "Yes, we're committed to radical honesty in our marriage; and age-appropriate inclusion for our children."

There are a lot of adult mysteries in the eyes of children...maybe I'm overlapping them with infidelity because now I know it was there. I don't know. I just know I constantly felt excluded from my family as a child and as an adult. But then, I had parents who agreed to do my thinking for me (that's not a DJ, that's what they said). And that was just two years ago.

Oh, BIO...I just wrote all that with this underneath it all: How to make it so your children don't grow up to be me.

I don't know how to do that.



About your resentment...I hear you saying that it comes from your opinion that your FWH hasn't sorted through his own weaknesses. So it's as if it's coming in from the outside, instead of inside you, your own expectations. Here's where healthy boundaries come in...because protecting our weaknesses, as Harley says, is what counts. Does he now protect his own weaknesses? Does he develop friendships with members of the opposite sex? Does he put himself in alone time with them? Does he talk in chatrooms, email with them?

Our thoughts become our actions...so your fear is real. If he still dwells on other women...as strangers or intimates, his distraction from his own stuff...that is what comes before action. However, if he makes sure he is not in these situations, then he is protecting his weaknesses...a step toward not doing what he did before.

I don't know why your FWH chose an A...I do understand how fearful it is if he doesn't know or will not say. If you focus on his weaknesses, then that will be your experience of him...increase your own fear. If you instead choose to acknowledge what he does differently now than he did before, holds himself to doing even if he doesn't "feel" like it...then your feel will decrease.

Either way, you'll be okay. Your choices remain. If it is to be intimate with your partner; then you will act from intimacy. You will know and share your stuff. And you listen for his sharing, to know. Without assumptions. And if you're measuring what isn't yours, take a look at the instrument and see if it's a tool or a weapon, really.

That's what I meant about abundance...share your perspective, your beliefs with him...listen to him, repeat back what you hear with your filter...and you both really will know and be known.

What are your own weaknesses? Have you got them sorted out, too?

Equality remains...equally loved by God, made from the same hands...if you need to go through life saying, "Well, they did that, so they aren't my equal" then your life cannot be redeemed of resentment, entitlement, experience true self and your own completeness, can it?

LA

LA,

I'm so, so sorry your childhood was so screwed up!! Have you ever felt safe, nurtured, or cradled in your life?


As it stands now, I think you're pretty awesome! I believe everybody is a "work in progress." I have made many, many poor choices in my adult life.

As a young adult, I wasn't the most moral creature on the face of the planet. I was in a relationship with a guy who was engaged ( I didn't know until I was 7 1/2 months pregnant with his child (DD19)). I found out when one of my friends said she's seen him doing some legal paperwork with his brand new wife...we slept together 5 days before they got married. I had a very difficult time letting go and "reconnected with him" when DD was 8 months old and again when she was a couple years old; I knew he was married then! I ran into him again (in another state) after I was married and told him I was disgusted by him/our behavior and that he was lucky to have his BW. I haven't looked back since and the only contact we've had was to do paperwork so my H could adopt DD.

Whew, that was a lot!


Since we moved to Texas in September, we've been living off our retirements; he's home most of the time. The only queasy feelings I've gotten since is a little girl (20 something y.o.) at the hardware store is kind of a flirty thing...he used to joke about it, but has stopped since. I don't know if he has any online activities as I don't check. He once made an offhand comment about me snooping and I told him that his current behavior didn't warrant snooping. If he ever started treating me as badly as he did during his A, it would be over, I wouldn't even bother to snoop.


The resentment is a shield! I know that (statistically) since we've failed to process his A thoroughly, he's likely to have another A down the road. I believe he slipped and made contact last spring (2007) after he confessed, wrote a NC, and quit his job in Jan 07. He just started treating me like I was his worst enemy...we've never processed that. He realized that he was in MLC and said he had to "fix himself" before we could work on the marriage...then nothing.


I am a conflict avoider. I am afraid to bring stuff up to him which should feel simple. Like a few weeks ago, I started that thread about him not showering regularly...it took me what seemed like forever to address it squarely with him, instead of hinting around about it. Currently, I'm working on addressing his hair...he's grown it long since retiring and I can hardly stand to look at him. I find it easy to bring up positive stuff with him, but let resentment take over for the negatives.

Other weaknesses, too many to list. I'm not very flexible in my schedule. If I normally do something on a regular basis and he throws a loop in there, I feel like he's trying to control me. I have passive aggressive tendencies, which I am trying to address by asserting myself more openly (doing this scares me). I know I have a fear of abandonment (probably stemming from having elderly parents and my dad having health problems since I was a child). He was 82 when he passed away 8 years ago, btw. Anyways the fear of abandonment, I believe, is an issue relating to our book conversation. I feel like I wouldn't survive if my marriage were to disolve. Going to school is helping with that. Maybe it's taking back control of my life. I've lived on my own and as a single parent. I would much prefer to build a healthy marriage, but am stumbling from the weight of my resentment (fear).


I want to share the stuff (that I wrote in the last paragraph) with H, but am afraid it would throw him into another "depression" and he'd withdraw even further. There's my fear of abandonment shining through. He doesn't share anything intimate with me except SF. Our conversations center around the kids, family, and day to day stuff. Mostly our RC time is sitting on the back porch reading separately.

On another note. I worry about the image our kids get of what adult life is going to be for them. Currently, I take care of the inside stuff in the house and go to school so I can eventually go back to work. H tends the garden/yard and piddles with his woodworking/music hobbies, reads, or plays computer games. This is not what I want them to see! I asked DS8 what he wanted to be when he grows up...he said "a dad." I don't want to mess up my kids by providing misleading images for them. I know that I am choosing to participate in this dance, though. How do I change the music?

I cannot see my H as any worse of a person than I am. I made some pretty inexcusable choices in my past and am grateful for God's gracious forgiveness. I'm humbled for all that He went through to forgive my sins. That's the thing which allowed be to forgive my H when he confessed, but I don't know if he's gotten the part about going forth and sin no more (as I do believe he slipped again as I mentioned above). It's a lot to sort out by myself.

BIO,

No, I really didn't feel cradled, safe or nurtured until four years ago when I faced losing my marriage. See, there were many times I have been neck-deep swimming in love and not felt a thing. I pretended I wasn't safe, my cradle and nuturing was a prison and a plight. They weren't. I was.

We can experience life radically different than what it is...I have actually never been one to fear being...if that makes sense...just the soundtrack in my head. Takes what it takes to see what is about me and what truly isn't. Took a lot. That's of my own doing to see God's constant offerings.

I remember you posting about having your DD out of wedlock. I like your bravery and honesty.


I'm not clear here...are you saying due to circumstances, FWH doesn't have opportunity or desire to stray? I'm sorry. I'm a bit tired right now...the moving and retirement means what exactly? You have more time to monitor? I hear you aren't acting from love and protecting your marital boundaries because you will not check his email and online relationships. So he has to make you snoop by his behavior, rather than a healthy check up so he knows you will?

I'm sorry, are you partnering or waiting for the other shoe to drop? Expecting it to drop? And assuming where his behavior originates without verifying truth on your own? Protecting our weaknesses doesn't mean you do FOR him...means you choose to do to partner, accept and protect both of you...Reactivity kills relationships. When you don't because he didn't...you're in a strangle dance of fantasy. I can't imagine leaving my DH based on a DJ. I'm sorry. I can't get there from here.

People will treat you badly in this world...offhand remarks, in mumbles, betrayal and thoughtlessness...how you act is solely based on you, your code. You know The Truth of actions has to be independently verified...you learned that because of all the self-deception you heard and saw in WH.

When you make your boundary enforcements, which must be progressive, predetermined or else they are ultimatums...then you will have feelings of security...because you know your steps, if you must take them. If they are self-threats, then you won't feel safe...because you are not.

I think the most common thing I read on MB was the belief that if our partners were unfaithful, we'd be outta here...just that fast. Without experiencing, understanding or making those progressive enforcements...like a self-threat...not realistic or understandable because we didn't experience it yet. Feels like one big broken promise to ourselves...when we don't leave and choose to recover. Wasn't a real vow, anyway...we did not say on our wedding day, "I vow to leave you if you <blank>" and list those circumstances.

I think we make self-threats to ourselves because we wishfully believe they will keep us safe...and they are like near-beer...not the real thing, just sort of signal us we really want healthy boundaries and predetermined enforcements.

Can you tell I triggered to your statement just a bit? Whoa. I wrote this the day you posted, and then ran out of time in my long reaction and emailed it to myself. Today, I'm calmer, less reactive. I think I made that self-threat to myself, BIO.


Really? Then nothing? He hasn't chosen your marriage, enforced marital boundaries and personal ones, acted from his love and commitment...or is the nothing coming from him not sharing what he's doing, his intent, or his stuff?

Would you consider what you don't know...in other ways and talk about them with him? Not bathing, not tending to his physical image...can also be ways of enforcing boundaries he did not before without awareness. When we are striving hard to be attractive to others, we do a lot of self-care and maintenance. If this is an under his radar way of not putting himself in the way of temptation to shortcut, would that be him working on himself?


Would you consider that the best way to stop avoiding conflict is to not see it as conflict? Do you have the boundary of honesty in your code? Which would mean you hold yourself to being honest to yourself about your stuff and to your partner? Sounds to me like you're basing your choices on his possible reaction (outcome) instead of your code...which is self-betrayal and dishonest to yourself. When we fear and act anyway (owning we don't really know response/outcome), we learn more about ourselves, our assumptions...and see that two-way street in action. You sharing your positive opinions and experience of him is based on the same reason why you struggle to share your negative one...you like the response when you share positively and want to avoid the response you expect for the negative ones.

You over step that both are sharing. And neither have ownership...because you aren't seeing what these two things about your H represent to you. What do they represent to you?

Do you believe we all have two primal fears...fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment?

And in our partnering, when one partner is experiencing a heightened fear of intimacy, then the other partner experiences a heightened fear of abandonment?

(Btw, we share having much older parents, too. How 'bout that?)

You've identified your resentment as a shield, a weight, a burden...it's tangible to you. Is it real?


Are you saying your own acts of O&H are dependent on his reactions?

Would you consider that your own adherence to a schedule may also be affecting your experience of your partner right now?

Would you consider doing the Recreational Inventory together on the back porch as your act of intimacy?


You are concerned about what your children are perceiving, is that correct? Have you asked them? Have you shared your concern with them?

You don't change the music...not in your control. You change your steps...you look at all within your power. You choose your thoughts, your beliefs, perception and perspective...and you choose your actions, your words.

You see where you are glued to where you have no control...and you pry yourself off that focus. Your DS8 wants to be a dad because...? Did you assume in your perception of what he said that his Dad has it made? All needs met...or so he can grow up depressed, uncommunicative, distracting and in a lot of pain? Or because your DS8 loves his father, the bond with him, the times they connect...that his father is HOME now for him, anytime he wants?

Retirement is huge change...you guys are in transition right now from one life to another, radically different routines and visions...on top of recovery...and rearing your children, to boot.

Our parenting is dynamic--changes as we grow, learn and know more than we did yesterday. It's not static...and if it is, then we aren't in reality. They aren't static, nor are we.

Misleading? I think that's coming from you, about you. You mislead each time you conflict avoid. Each time you lie by omission to your partner and your children. Each time you assume instead of not know...catch your own signals and you will make different choices. That changes the dance.


Can you see your H as whole and complete as you are? With the same power and limits as you have?

Would you consider you slipped in your verifying and therefore don't know the truth? How do you practice self-forgiveness for each time you do not act from your own code? If you laid out your boundaries and predetermined your progressive enforcements, then you would know what you require of yourself when you cross your boundaries...you would know your amends.

Big part of forgiveness...and why we don't forgive too soon (it's damaging) because we are not God. We are humans...we are in constant process, held under inherent responsibility and limits...and our own self-forgiveness is part of forgiving others. The process itself aids us in clarity, reality, ownership and healing. Don't step over that process, BIO. It's ongoing, daily.

LA

Wow, LA,

Thank you for giving me such insightful feedback. I'm going to have to take a little time to digest it, but here are some things I "get" right now.


This is a new idea to me. I may be at this point right now. I may be blocking my own feelings of love because of my fears.


Oh my goodness, I certainly wouldn't leave based on a DJ. I know H isn't perfect. I'm talking about the pattern of DJs...standing stiff like a board when I hug him, clamping his lips shut when I kiss him, making comments like "if you must" when I want to spend time with him...I get icey when I even think about those things (so I try to redirect my mind when I think about them). I consider that a boundary. I won't stay in a relationship where I'm treated like an annoyance. Jeez, I just realized that maybe I do this (more subtly) with H.


Exactly!!! This is the pattern we had right before/or at the beginning of his A. I was clueless that he was doing these things/had the feeling for OW. Maybe oblivious is a better word. I don't have the luxury of oblivion now, I don't feel like I even know who H is any more. In the most intimate sense, I feel like he's a stranger.

I'll have to think more about this and will post more tomorrow. I didn't mean to trigger those feelings in you. What made you change when you made the same self threat? What's a more healthy response? (I know the answer is probably in there, but I do need to digest a little more).

BIO,


You didn't trigger...I triggered to my previous mindset. That's me, about me...and I believe triggers are to help us, overall, not to the extreme where they control us and not to the other extreme where we block them out--in the middle, I've got further healing to do...pertaining to my own self-forgiveness and forgiveness of my DH. It's a process. Good to know where it still hurts, eh?

Thank you for sharing. For reading what is mine shared with you. For seeing where we connect and don't. God doesn't stop working, ever.

LA

LA,

I've got a mid-term and final coming up early next week. I'm having a little difficulty focusing right now but will definitely get to it as soon as my head is cleared up a bit. Thank you again for sharing and taking the time with me.

I do want to add though, a breakthrough. H has agreed to try attendance at a political club in town, we both enjoy that sort of conversation and have an interest in it. I'm praying there'll be some nice people there.

BIO,

Good luck on your midterm...and no problem on response. I'm here.

Nice breakthrough! I put that in RC time and intellectual intimacy. Kudos to your H!

LA

I think it's a little of both, he doesn't have the opportunity and I don't think he wants to go through the h@ll we went through again. I don't check his stuff because it's a big trigger for me; I didn't feel good about me when I did do it. I felt like a parent or a jailer to him. I don't want to do things that make me feel bad about myself. As far as checking on him with computer stuff...he's the top of his field ...in computers. I'm not interested in a cat and mouse game.



I'm working on this. For example, I realized that I was "picking on him" with little stuff (hair, shower...etc) because of my deeper issues (not connecting with him on more than just a surface level). I did bring this up to him. We sat out on the back porch and he could tell I wanted to talk. He said, "What did I do or not do now?" I said it was something I was doing and went on to explain that the fact that he was so defensive about talking was an indicator of what I was doing. I told him that my addressing the little issues was just a symptom of what was really bothering me (and that was that we weren't getting past the surface and that I sometimes felt like he was a stranger to me). He said there was nothing past the surface and I replied that (that) was my other fear. The subject was dropped right there. I'm trying to open the door to productivity, but feel like it's being slammed shut each time. Is it wrong to want a two way interaction? I do wonder how he'd feel if I approached SF the same way he approaches conversation. Oooh, I can feel resentment building and know not to react on it.


I think (and he's said) that he honestly "forgets" to shower every day...it's like a chore. If I were to DJ, I'd say he's forgetting because he doesn't want to be controlled (that's what drew me to ezb's thread). As far as his hair, he acts like he in love with it; he'll run his fingers through it and say how thick and luxurious it is and pull it out around his face and pose like those guys on romance novels. My hair is "ok" but not as thick as I'd like it to be; I do feel sometimes that he's in a competition with me. I keep my hair long only because he likes it like that, my instinct is to cut it short again, but I think that would be reactive/punishing to him.


You're making very good points. The kids do admire H, though DS11 is starting to question some things (esp. his lack of faith). DS 8 says he wants to do woodworking like dad when he grows up.

Another good point you bring up about retirement. I went through this transition myself 6 years ago, while pregnant with DD5. I think I'm ready to go back to work, but want to finish school.



good point on the misleading part, that's one of the things that helped me bring up my real fears to H. I haven't, though, discussed the idea of getting out if we can't break out of this cycle...how would that not be a threat? I'm still confused about this one. I can change myself and am working on that. I can ask him to meet my needs...and have done that. I still attempt to meet his needs (SF, touch etc), but I'm on the slippery slope of "is this it???" My taker is rearing it's ugly head...

BIO,


I don't think I can understand your mindset because of my own belief that there is me, my DH and The Marriage. I will snoop for The Marriage. I will do it to ascertain the truth...and I no longer trigger...every time there has been nothing...which means I stopped triggering. I kept facing what was possible and it turned out not real. My DH likes that I do this now, a couple of times a year, because he sees it as me being with him on the team, not waiting for him to screw up. I've got his back. Because self-deception is necessary to attack the marriage...so my verifying the truth independently is my support of him.

I choose not to do it parentally or as a jailer...got a schedule I follow whether I feel like it or not...just another chore to cross off like marital housekeeping. As for the computer, DH can know about the keylogger and choose not to mess with it...choose to verify he's being honest and faithful...goes a long way to his own redemption of what he did then that he won't do now. Can be freeing.

There are no guarantees...our verification doesn't change a single choice...always ways around them...that may be where you're getting the jailer idea...only, they aren't in prison, they have the ways and means if they want...they aren't being ignored for their faithfulness and guarded for their unfaithfulness to the best of our ability.

From awareness. I think I would be feel MORE trapped by his past A, more powerless, helpless and done to if I didn't do my part. I free myself from my own jail. Just doing my half. I think I would trigger more with your perspective...for when my DH has a bad day at work and gives that cutting smile he used to during his A...because my mind would go to "Is it happening again? How 'bout now? What was that gesture?" If his reactions were my only way, then I'd have to live in DJland...that's what I see (and may not be true at all for you) because I would be assuming the truth through clues. And online, there is constant opportunity.

Verifying what's within my power...verifies what is within my power. Doesn't make me feel bad about myself...and it shuts down my fantasy choices of ignoring, wishing away and fine tuning myself to nuances and not hearing his stuff as his.

And I do think if I chose to see it as me being the jailer, I would feel the same as you...instead of doing my half of the marriage, what's within my real power and limits. Doing it your way would keep his A alive daily for me. What is it like for you?


Two things...one, that you would fear your DH is less than you, surface only...means you fear the same of yourself. Two, that you are more concerned with right and wrong than understanding.

I remember this in myself. I've shared how skewed my chosen perspective was, my beliefs, my choice of perception and how harmful it was to the marriage. Once I understood I chose my stuff, not him choosing it for me...then I got that God made my DH from the same material--love--he was my equal in every way. I stopped distracting with thoughts of depth, stopped buying into the defensiveness, and stopped buying into his stuff. I committed to acknowledge, validate and understand first, then be understood. Turn my world inside out. My resentment flailed...had nowhere to go...and I think resentment is what shoves my focus over into what isn't mine and sneaks it past me so it can grow and thrive while I experience misery and disconnection.

Thank you for your post because of this realization...I think I've caught my culprit in myself. I was stuck before...why my focus kept going to where it lived for so many years--I suspected habit. I think our focus is benign--pure tool of being. I can really see my resentment using it to survive and flourish. I really appreciate you sharing very much.

I saw in another post where a counselor told the poster to drop the rope in the tug of war. Which is in answer to your "two-way street" question...we can struggle for the marriage or against each other. I dropped the rope. I respected he has his own rope...I don't have to tug, dig or pull it out of him. That's not an act of respect. Mine job is to know and share my own stuff...and you did that wonderfully. How did you feel before his response? Did you feel brave and scared? Did you feel intimate?

The door to intimacy is always open...only takes one to know and share their stuff for intimacy. I'm so happy you're not closing your door to doing so. That takes a lot. An act of self-commitment.

Can you see your idea on SF as the same as the giving to get/tit for tat road you may know really well? Is that real to you? Is that how we really love and experience love, by earning it?


The DJ I see hurting yourself with is his hair, not his showering. A man of his age, in fear of losing his hair, this may be very real, his cherishing and relief he still has his best feature in his mind. A symbol, not the hair. Fear of loss looms every day through our middle age...gives us the experience of fearful living, too. Why did you choose to compare your hair to his symbol? Seems like you took his symbol on, hence, making the idea of cutting it off attractive to cut him off. What a great O&H sharing this would be, to own your perception, your DJ, choice to compare and the resulting desire.


I only can spot it because I did it myself. I have built my trust in myself from getting my signals, flipping over when I judge others to find it within myself. I think you saw that above...which is why posting on MB is constant mutuality...not one way advice. I grow from sharing and others have the opportunity to see they are not alone, bad or wrong. They aren't using the tools God gave us to change our life experience.

Please know you can break any cycle you are half of...when you remove one part of the loop, the loop breaks. Have faith you have the power to break any cycle. Not dependent on anyone else, 'k? Our beliefs give us our feelings; we act and the feelings follow. Act to end your half of the same dance and see it change. Doesn't mean it will change when you want it to, in the way you want it to...means it will change.

My real Taker is beautiful. My real Giver can be ugly. I get what you're saying and I hear you are cutting out the experience of meeting H's ENs which also meet some of your own. When we touch in affection, we feel affectionate...and touching is a great symbol of the inherent two-way street (which is always there and when we can't feel it, we gotta check our perspective)...because you can't touch another without feeling yourself. Their skin touches your own right back. When my resentment builds and flourishes, I don't want to reach out to my DH and touch...I want to grab my ENs right out of him.

:::insert really embarrassed emoticon here:::

I know that feeling. Resentment is like my first love inside and is a demanding, fierce and mean lover. When I get that way, I take deep breaths, reach out and touch my DH because of my commitment to do so. Funny thing is, when I do so, and he smiles, I remember then we are really allies, we're in this together, and his skin, his shirt, his being is touching me back. Then I feel love, not resentment, and resentment goes off in a huff. Resentment thrives on the tug-o-war, disconnection as protection, and getting all my stuff from others...when it's mine.

Reach out, anyway. Feel how your choice touches you back...says this is real...here is my partner...and see how your stuff reacts, what feelings you have, and what's lurking underneath some of them.

He's there for you. He chose you. He is a whole human being struggling with his stuff right beside you. Take walks together every day for 15 minutes, so you can symbolize your choice to walk side by side. Offer to make a pact to kiss every day three times at least...good morning, good night and good bye. Maybe even schedule your porch time at night to including holding hands or resting hands on each other.

You want to be connected...he can't do that for you.

You want to feel certain feelings...again, he cannot really do that for you.

About talking about getting out as a threat...when you consistently own and share your stuff, over a period of time, through different circumstances, then no, sharing you're considering getting out of the marriage isn't harmful. When you hit and miss with O&H, when you don't act consistently from your own choice to love, then you jumping into the future with "If you don't work at it I'm out of here" isn't real, either.

Hard for me to describe how I would jump to the end, from experiencing in my head all the future stuff (which could be just weeks or days) and realize I was determining my boundary enforcement around my expectations, my brain giving me all those resulting feelings as if my prediction were true, experiencing the future as if it were right now...and me reacting in real time to my DH from those emotions...and he was sitting there in the present, not knowing or understanding.

I could beat the crud out of my DH for what he hadn't done yet, btw. I was threatening him in my head to not do it or else I would...instead of saying, "Here's my stuff and where it's coming from right now." So I started sharing my Amtraks (that's what we call them) when I would jump face first into disappointment and anger for what I envisioned him doing or not doing. We looked at it together, because we're on the same team, and picked out my fears, my time warp, and talked...he shared his stuff and where it was coming from, too.

Don't ask for him to meet your ENs anymore...focus on how he already does where you discount. Focus on gleaning reality from it...and if you find a gaping hole you really crave, look inside if you're giving it yourself. Then state, "I know you know my EN for conversation. My perception is we've exchanged about ten words today. What's yours?"

State you know he knows...because he does. Respect he is a fully able adult who remembers. He knows. He can't control what you discount, dismiss or cut out of your experience. The more you can state how he does meet your ENs the better you will understand how much of his love deposits you're blocking.

Maybe you'll hear how he blocked yours. Maybe you won't. Owning your stuff won't make him anything...just examples how you do it and how much you like yourself, love yourself, for sharing who you are.

List your ENs for me, if you will, so I can better see how you meeting his meets yours, too.

Again, the cutting out was a huge realization for me. I thought I was powerless in getting my ENs met...didn't own my half or catch my resentment robbing me blind. May not be your experience at all...just what I relate to...all about me, BIO.

And to tie this back to the book...when you list your ENs, try to guess what your Mother's ENs were, too...do yours, then hers, 'k?

LA

LA, I found this quote in the Q and A section on MB website; I think it's describing exactly what's going on with my stuff.


What do you think?

As far as my Mom's ENs, I'd have to say recreational time. She and my Dad generally took walks w/each other twice a day, bowled weekly, played card/dice games every day, they danced to Lawrence Welk on Saturday nights, and Dad would leave love notes on the bathroom mirror for her when he had to go to work early. They were so dedicated to each other, I remember when Mom accidentally made iced "coffee" for him to take to work, she realized it and rode her bicycle about 10 miles to bring him some iced tea and share a lunch with him(she was about 60 yrs old at the time)
Mom was always the more practical one of the two and Dad was the one we'd go to for emotional talks...(they set us up!!! hehehe). Dad also took care of maintenance stuff around the house, Mom kept it running like clockwork...she's an amazing woman. I do remember when Dad retired...it drove Mom crazy! She had her routines set up (sound familiar?) and Dad wanted to watch her every second. He would get antsy if she was out for a bike ride; she did volunteer work to get out of the house for a while. They did have a wonderful marriage in my view (and in the other 14 of us' view). I have recognized in the past that I wanted H to be like my dad was with my mom...not very fair I know.

As far as H's hair, that's why I pulled up the quote above. I feel like every time he brings it up, ie "Look, my hair's gonna be that long soon! or "see my luxurious, thick hair!" I hear " I don't care if you're attracted to me or not, you'll have to just suck it up!" Since he knows that I'm not happy with it, what's the point of bringing it up? All that does is grind it in.


It seems to me that our marriage is almost like a great big tug of war, the only way I know how to drop the rope is to disengage.

I do think I plan A'd way too long after his A. It set up some unrealistic messages and I became a doormat (his needs were paramount and my stayed on the back burner). I'll have to read up on how to transition out of plan A.

BIO, I love that quote! Where'd you see it?

I can SO relate to the hair thing. I'm not an AS person, but it did bother me when H grew in a goatee, now a grey one. I don't like goatees or facial hair to begin with, and the grey when we already have a big age gap embarassed me a lot when he grew it in last year at first because it's like broadcasting our May-December status to people who wouldn't have guessed it otherwise. I don't usually tell people.

But like I said, I'm not a big AS person, and I am enthusiastic in that it makes me happy that he's so happy with how he looks. I like seeing him confident. My H brings it up too, because it looks so good to him. I share my O&H, you're so handsome hon, and when you get rid of that thing you'll be even more adorable to me.

EO,

I found it in the "Articles section" "When should you tell a spouse "We have a problem...""

I, also am not a big AS person and was tolerating it until a couple of incidents gave me a really bad taste in my mouth. We were sitting on the porch with his brother, and H thought it would be "funny" to put his hair in pigtails. He spent the rest of the evening "swishing" his hair over his shoulders (he was wearing a muscle tee), trying to draw attention to himself. The other incident was during a very private time so I won't go there.

I know this is a petty issue...like the shower thing. But if you look at the quote from Harley, it's very telling about the priority my H places on our relationship. I have told him that I miss his short hair and how sexy he was with it. I asked if he's consider cutting it. He said "we'll see" and now it's "oooh, look at that guys hair, mine will be that long!"

Also, he's ordered a kilt. I have nothing against kilts and kind of like them. However, we live in a very small south Texas town. I asked him not to pick DS11 up from school wearing it; I don't want DS11 being teased about his dad wearing a "skirt" and long hair, if you get my drift. DS11 is at a critical stage and needs to not be embarrassed by H; he adores his dad, but is beginning to see that he's not perfect.

I don't think he "gets" that his actions affect more than just him. H expresses a f/u attitude to the world often...sometimes it seems to include us. I know that if I went around town wearing slutty clothes, it would have a negative impact on my family. You just can't get that back. Am I worrying for nothing?

I don't blame you for the goatee dislike. I think they look evil, but I'm sure some women think they're hot.

BIO, i hear you, that you don't like his choice, to say no to your thoughtful request. Wht about negotiation, brainstorming about what would make him enthusiastic about trying a new hair style, or what would make you enthusiastic about this one?

Ears,

I actually was ok with the hairstyle for a little while; I figured it would make him less of a target for OW's to make "googly eyed" invitations to him. He is stunning with a clean cut look. Oooops I almost made a very disrespectful comment. I also figured he'd grow out of it, but he seems to push the envelope further and further instead of coming back to a more acceptable norm. I don't know where he's going with it and have had sniggling doubts, thinking that he may be sexually confused or have secret desires to crossdress. I just don't know what's coming next...

Maybe I'd feel more tolerant if he wouldn't push it in my face (literally and figuratively). If I thought he'd stop at the long hair, I might feel more comfortable. He won't go near a hair stylist...even for a trim to neaten it up.

BIO, thanks for being willing to negotiate on this. Have you shared with your H how you feel abuot this? What about seeking to understand how he feels about it?

If I remember right, he's not on board with POJA. It can be very frustrating living with someone who is willing to gain at your expense, whether it's an angry teen or resentful H. I like LA said about frustration, that frustration is taking the consequences for actions that are not our own. How can you remove the consequences to you? On jayne's thread last weekend, we talked a lot about the persuer/distancer dance, and I encourage you to read it, as well as the articles linked. I think it's really relevant to this thread, because are the same Imago ideas.

What about talking with him, find out why he is willing to gain at your expense on individual issues, brainstorm to find the win-win, so you can build up slowly to POJA on more and more things.

Hi Ears,

Thanks for taking the time to give me another perspective.

I did finally "have it out" with him 2 days ago (very unusual for us). We were sitting at the table and he commented how much he liked the kilt and asked if I liked it. I said that I could tolerate it as long as he didn't wear it in public. He said that he fully intended to wear it in public.

I finished my breakfast and he went into his work/hobby shop. I printed out the quote from Harley and went and asked him to read it, he did and said "what is it now?" I said "it's the hair, the look, everything; When you know that I'm not happy with stuff like the long hair and make comments like "I can't wait until it gets longer" I hear "F/U I don't care how you feel or whether you're attracted to me or not." I went on to explain that if DS11's schoolmates see him in long hair and a kilt, they're likely to come down on DS11 and say "your dad's gay or a crossdresser" I told him I didn't want him to damage his relationship with DS11 and the he looked up to him and I wanted it to stay that way. If he goes out and pushes the issues in public, there's no going back.

H hung his head and went back to his shop and left a few minutes later; I figured he was either going to get a haircut or file for divorce. He got a haircut, but was hostile throughout the day. He was much friendlier yesterday and actually acknowledged his poor behavior the day before.

I feel bad that I hurt him, but am glad I stood my ground; he did need to hear that stuff.

btw, as far as Imago. H's father (who was alcoholic and abusive) showed up at his oldest son's wedding with a huge necklace on (maybe 5" in diameter); he thought he looked cool. MIL said he did stuff like that all the time.

BIO, I have an Imago counselor, and we were talking about something similar yesterday. H is out of town for the summer, so it was just me. She talked about how I don't acknowledge his need for space, and how that makes him feel controlled. I am still trying to figure out how to balance this need for space, which for him means going out drinking with his drinking buddy one night a week, falling asleep as soon as he gets home. She asked me, well if he wasn't drunk driving, then would you be enthusiastic about it. I told her I'm not, and she said that I really need to think about that. What if we had connection the other 6 nights a week, including one night a week date night? I don't know, I guess I could try it. I don't relate all that to T/J, just that I think it helps to give context for you to understand what I'm looking at.

I am wondering if your H has a similar need for space, one that could be expressed in ways that aren't going to harm the marriage. What does the kilt mean to him? Defiance against cultural norms? A desire to reconnect with his heritage? Have you explained to your H about your concerns? Would 11 year olds think it's crossdressing, or that it's cool? I think this dialogue will help you two understand each other, and you maybe even would want to include DS11, maybe long hair is more in vogue at that age, like The Jonas Brothers and Zack and Cody.

Ears,

I can tell you that my DS11 is very happy/relieved that H got his hair cut...he no longer looks like he came out of the homeless shelter.

I talked with H's aunt last night (she and MIL are thrilled with his haircut). She said she thinks that H wanted me to put my foot down. He had no boundaries as a teen because MIL felt so guilty about how badly H was treated by his father. H even talked to his aunt about it when he was younger. He said that if he lit a fire in the living room of their home, MIL wouldn't say a word. His aunt thinks that by my setting those boundaries, he felt loved.

H is treating me much, much better and even acknowledged how badly he acted on the day of the "talk." He looks very attractive again and I can hardly take my eyes off of him. He seems to have more pride in himself too. I think much of this fits right in with Imago. I have to re-read it again...this is very exciting.

About your H going out drinking, I understand your reluctance to approve of that...it's just not a good environment for a married man. Is there any way you can POJA his free time, maybe you can go out and let H invite his friend over for a drink. Is there any place they could go or thing they could enjoy other than drinking in a bar? Maybe breakfast at a diner on a Saturday morning...or coffee? What makes you uncomfortable about the current set up, besides the obvious pitfalls of bars?

What makes me uncomfortable is that H's family has had lifetime struggles with alcohol and drug abuse, including domestic violence, suicide, living on the street. H is the only one who has been able to avoid this so far. If I had his genetics, I'd NEVER touch a drop or allow it around my kids. He sees me as punishing him for his and my FOO's behavior. H's drinking has had a lot of consequences for me, too, like cancelling plans when he was sick, and not being able to spend time with him in the evenings because he's asleep at 8 pm from the drinking several nights a week. But mostly the fear of where it was headed. As a kid, we watched my stepfather progress to severe alcoholism and it would be heartbreaking for me and our kids to see H go through that. It's cyclical, and before he left, he had abstained for a month, a good faith effort because I wasn't willing to send my kids on vacation out of town with an active drinker.

I talked to my sponsor last night, and she helped me to stay in the present. I don't know what the future holds for H, and worrying instead of being peaceful will just make me feel mistakenly LESS competent to handle the present if things change. And I know this, to stay in today, it just got confusing, now we're talking about what's okay and what's not okay for us. But it would be dishonest for me to say that I am enthusiastic about him making plans to get drunk. You're right, it's not a good environment for a married man, either, and we have been trying to POJA the making plans. H and his buddy years ago used to go walking and to the gym together. They did still end up at the bar after. Gosh, I really didn't mean to TJ this. I don't know if any of this will be relevant to you.

Wow, I didn't realize your H looked like he came out of the shelter. I had a very different picture in my mind of long hair, like these

http://www.thehairstyler.com/long_men_hairstyles.asp

That is so cool that this is working out so well, and that you're finding him attractive again I can imagine for your son, too, to have his dad back, so cool! I can see why he has more pride in himself, and how that goes hand in hand with treating you much, much better.


Okay, this part confused me. Boundaries are around ourselves, to protect us from unacceptable behavior. Was this really a boundary or walk line for you? I thought you were negotiating the POJA with him, not setting a boundary.

EO,

You mentioned a sponsor. Is this from Alanon (I can't remember if you'd mentioned it before)? If so, has your H gone to it? I like the idea about going to the gym...minus the bar afterward. How long has H been drinking where it's causing you/your family problems? btw, I don't consider any of this stuff TJ, it's all relevant and I tend to get off track a lot. Anyways, I've been thinking about going to Alanon to try and understand how to deal with H's FOO issues.

As far as H...he doesn't do POJA...that would take conversation. It was pretty much a boundary thing as that's as far as we can get at this point.

The link you sent gave me a clearer picture of what you imagined I was expressing. It helped me understand why you were gently guiding me to try to accept his choice. I still think those guys would look much, much better with short hair (personal preference), but the fact that they were clean, neatly dressed/groomed makes a huge difference.