thanks turtlehead, I know you are right but it's still very scary. In addition to what you have said, I also tell myself that if this doesn't work out then at least I can know in my heart that I did my best to make this marriage work out and there was nothing more in my power to do.

Another thing that's scaring me is that I will not manage to do a good Plan B. I have things sorted for the first few days but after that I'll have to play it by ear. Could anyone give me an indication of what signs I should be looking for before calling an end to Plan B? I don't want to end up in false recovery as I've heard several people mention. What should I do on this front and is it up to the mediator to judge when he is ready to come back?

That's the right email. I just went and added a new rule in case it's mistaking you for spam. Try again, and put "Tully" in the subject line. Also, don't put any profanity in the body, lololol, as that would activate other filters, too. (I don't think you actually would. )

When he contact the mediator and says "I'm ready to work on my M with Tully" then you can send a list to him (through the mediator) of the requirements you want met before you'll consider reconciling with him. Here are some suggestions:

NC letter written by him, approved by you, mailed by you
Access to all phone records and passwords
Rule on email to block her messages
Key logger on computer
GPS on car
Switch cellphones with you whenever you ask
Go to MB weekend with you and do all followup work
Answer all questions fully and honestly, including polygraph
Spend no time one-on-one with a female, ever
Change jobs
Move

If he won't agree to all your criteria, you continue in Plan B.

tully,

Once again I can only hit and run, but I will try to be back later. I so admire you for fighting for a proper marriage.

About your Plan B questions: did you read Tarnsy's thread, as I suggested? I hadn't read to the end of it when I wrote here a few days ago. I got to the end and got a great shock. You should read it ASAP to see how important real NC is, and why you must not accept less than a full return to a caring marriage from your H. You will know when you have it - and when you don't.

Thanks Sugar and Turtle, This might be cut short as WH is due home from work soon.

The male colleague of my WH came here this afternoon and he talked a lot of sense. HE thinks that I shouldn't talk about sharing the children as this, for him as a man, is divorce talk. He thinks that I should make it absolutely clear that the choice for WH is between his family and OW and not between her and me. He thinks I should probably go to Ireland instead - that the situation merits it and I'm starting to think the same.

There are several advantages of going to Ireland
- better emotional and practical support for me and the kids
- much, much easier to black-out on Plan B
- more of an electoshock for WH.
- he will stay in the house here and so it will be much harder for him to bring OW here than it would be for them to set up a little love-nest elsewhere. Friends would keep an eye on him and call in to see him.
- there are no legal ramifications for me especially if I don't hide where we are, tell him that he can come to see them when he likes and also send them to school there.
- finally the step for him to come and bring us back is bigger and would be more indicative of a real intention to sort things out.

This has to be fast as he'll be here soon but I also found out today that OW has sent an email to the lab she was supposed to go to to say that she will not be going before the 1st Dec at the earliest.

I'm taking a huge chance here that he will fight to get us back. Do you think he will or will he choose her? The colleague who I talked to today said that in his opinion they are so badly suited that it's impossible that the relationship could work even if all the other obstacles weren't there.

I just wanted to hear your opinions on this. I'll sleep on it and the colleague is going to ring me back tomorrow to give me his considered opinion but I wanted to hear what you all have to say.

I agree since your foggy WH probably doesn't realize that his decision will not just end a M between spouses but be the destruction of an entire family.


I think Ireland would be good for you. Whether you are home or in Ireland this situation worries you and WH comments on the plane reveal his frame of mind. Think self preservation at this moment.


:RollieEyes: IF OW stalls and stalls are you prepared to nuke her career?


There is no way to know for certain.

He may well choose her for a while. You need to be prepared for that the best you can. Understand that if he does go to her, it is temporary, and doesn't mean your M must fail.

Hopefully he will immediately come to his senses, and he might just do that, but if not just trust us, his A is not going to last forever. 99% certain!

She is going to dawdle about leaving him as long as she can. That shoudn't influence your choices, since you'll be doing what's best for your family. No way should you try and continue your Plan A till December. Even if you made it intact, when she once again puts off her departure till January, you're likely to rupture something.

Ireland sounds good - all I'm worried about at this point is what's best and most peaceful for you. At this stage, what's best for you by yourself, is also what's best for the future of your marriage.

Tully,

I completely agree with the work colleague. It will make it so much easier for you to do a dark Plan B. Just remember that if he does come to Ireland to see the kids that you musn't let him see or speak to you at that time. You've got to remain in the dark Plan B until he meets your requirements to return to the M. I think Ireland is going to make things so much easier for you logistically and you also get the added benefit of being with your children all of the time!! I also really like the thought that this will clearly show your WH that he is choosing between OW and his family...not just OW and you.

Remember what Neak said, he may initally go to OW....in fact I'd be pretty shocked if he didn't but while he is doing that he is going to be forced to realize that he is also giving up his entire family. That will build resentment at some level towards OW. It may take some time but the A will almost surely come to an end. And, as long as you remain in that dark Plan B you will not know what he is doing anyway (nor should you try to find out). Don't ask people to spy on him because if you hear that he is seeing OW it is just going to withdraw more from your LB and you cannot afford it!! Plan B is designed to preserve the remaining love you have for WH and your M but if you continue to spy and hear bad things then it really won't be doing what it is designed to do. Ask your mediator not to inform you of this information even if she knows. Protect the LB at all costs or the M has no chance.

You are doing awesome Tully! Keep on keeping on!! We are all here pulling for you!!!

Mindshare

BR, I realised this during the conversation on the plane on Thursday. He even called into question the extent to which the children would miss him.

Yes, I'm thinking about this. I suspect she has no intention of leaving but is stringing everyone along hoping that our marriage will fail before she is forced into a decision. Her field of science is a narrow one. If I tell the Big Boss who is influential in this field it won't do her any favours even if she doesn't go.

Neak and Mindshare, thanks for your opinions too. I have lost even more weight and I think I have a liver problem (pains and the whites of my eyes are gone very yellow) so I think I need more support than I would get here. Also I am thinking that he will be very angry when he realises that I've taken the children away from him to Ireland but he'll get over that and I think it might be more productive and preferable to making him incrementally angry every day by refusing to see and talk to him if I'm here.
Overall, I am thinking that it might be best to go to Ireland. I've checked out flights and I could go on Thursday afternoon. I've hidden out passports just in case.
I was thinking of leaving a letter on the table for him to find when he gets back on Thursday evening. I'll adjust the Plan B letter in accordance. I also need to talk to the mediator to let her know the change in plans and to pack today.
My MIL is really mad with me. She thinks that for the sake of the children I should take whatever crumbs he offers in the hope that some day he'll give me a slice of bread. I now think that it's not a good idea to give me daughters the message that they should put up with anything in a M.

Sugar, what do you think? A while back you said something that gave me courage. You said that you thought he would get rid of her as soon as he realised it meant losing me. Do you still think that?

I'm sitting here ready to book tickets to Ireland for tomorrow but I'm so scared. A few people have said that they think he will freak if I take the children away from him and that it will destroy any chance of making things work out between us. But on the other hand I don't think that it will be possible to do a proper Plan B here and also I am afraid of what will happen to my LB if he gets angry/ aggressive/ frustrated with me. At least if I'm in Ireland I won't see all of that.
Am I doing the wrong thing???? Should I go??

Dear tully,

I'm so sorry that I can only dash in and out of your thread. I'd love to talk to you at length and offer continual support. I can hear how distressing this time is for you.

As soon as I read your thoughts about going to Ireland I could see what an excellent solution that would be. I think somehow we got side tracked from that option in the early days when I and others raised questions about whether you had the right to take the kids abroad. I think now that you definitely need the support of your loving family. I was moved when you said that you were alone, without your own income, in a foreign country without family, but even then I couldn't see that you should not stay in that position. I agree with all the others now that this would be a good move for you and the children. You need your family's help.

There must be a lot of practical things to think about. How do you physically make it all happen? How do you pack cases (and what do you put in them) and get them, and four children, to the airport? Once you have gone you can't nip back for anything, so what do you make sure to take? Your family will no doubt make sure that the children are provided with all the practical things that you cannot carry. You obviously need passports, but what else? Birth certificates? I'm sure you're thinking of all this all the time. You have such courage.

You H will indeed freak but you must do what YOU need. Your H violated your marriage, he has made you ill and unhappy, he has risked his children's futures and, just now, he does not think that he has done something terrible wrong and so sees no need to pull out stops to make things right. You should not accept his staying sulkily and reluctantly in the marriage. He must be made to see what his choices have led to for all of you. Somehow he needs to feel horrified at what he has done. He will probably rant and rave about your removing yourself from the environment that his twisted morality has created but he will see, sooner rather than later, that he has crapped on his family and his marriage. He will see these things for the gifts that they are and he will make up his mind to grab them with both hands and never let them go.

As long as your letter lets him know that there is a way back, and that you will consider returning to the marriage when he does so wholeheartedly and passionately, he will not be able to maintain a stance that you have taken his children away from him or somehow dragged them into a mess that should have been kept private between the two of you. I can hear what your MIL is saying to you now, mainly through fear that she will lose close contact with her grandchildren. However, once you go to Plan B and show that the marriage could be restored with total commitment and NC by him, she will tell him to do the right thing, and so will everyone else. Who would defend his right to keep contact with his ho bag? Who is going to tell him that he should follow his heart and go to her, and that his children will not suffer too much from divorce? Nobody will, tully. They will be disgusted at his logic and will defend you for insisting on a loving, committed, exclusive marriage or nothing at all.

You will be in a lonely and unsatisfactory position in France, but you won't be in Ireland. Your taking the children where he cannot pop in to see them will not be the reason why your marriage does not recover.

You asked me whether he will resent her quickly once in Plan B and my answer is yes, he will. I'll write later about how my H explained this feeling about his OW to me.

Should you go? YES. You should only do your other Plan B, in France, if you have good reasons for keeping the children in their familiar environment. Both versions of the plan are going to tick your H off badly. However, the French version is difficult to work properly and will make you anxious and unsettled, whereas the Irish version will give you comfort, security and total darkness. Plan B is for you to get respite from this nightmare. Take all the help you can get, with your family.

Back later.

Thank you so much, Sugar. I appreciate your support so much but I know you must be busy. I do so appreciate everyone's help. I will try to help others later (that's if I'm in any fit state to advise anyone) I did read Tarnsey's thread and it does make for scary reading. I need to guard against false recovery but I think the whole Plan B would be so much easier to manage from Ireland. I am sure that he would try to see me and discuss things with me if we stay here and I don't know how I could prevent him from coming in to the house if the children are there. It would upset them so much to lock him out and create a lot of anger and tension all round. Whereas in Ireland it's much more manageable.

I've booked our tickets now and we are leaving tomorrow afternoon. The children are back to school tomorrow after the mid-term break and I'll pick them up at lunch and go straight to the airport from there. I have a friend who will drive us to the train station and then leave the car outside our house. My mediator is on board and will call WH tomorrow evening to discuss matters and emphasise the fact that the door is still open for him to come back to our M. I've asked her to protect me from knowing about his anger and she understands. The work colleague is also going to talk to him on Friday morning. Both say that they support my decision 100%.

My dad is aware and will pick us up at the airport on the other side. I'm going to prepare a pile of clothes under each bed and then tomorrow morning it won't take long to just put the lot in suitcases. I'll have to take a lot because I don't know how long we are going for. Friday I'll go and talk to the local primary school to discuss putting the girls in school there from Monday but I don't think there will be a problem. The principal is lovely and accepted them for 3 weeks in Feb.


I'm sure I'll forget things to bring but I'll just have to buy them if necessary. WH came home for lunch and I'm fairly certain that there was contact this morning. He is taking care not to be nasty or snide (luckily for my LB!) because I told him that it's a clear sign of contact for me. However he is absent and preoccupied and shows no concern for me. The oil in the pan took fire this lunch and gave me a fright but no damage done. My DD10 was instantly concerned for me but WH didn't even ask if I was OK, just ensured the fire was out.

I'm taking the girls to the swimming pool in an hour just to get out of her and relax. There's no point in worrying about things, it won't help. I'm not a very good concealer - I tend to be much more direct - but luckily WH is fairly oblivious to me and my actions.

Thanks everyone. The nerves are steady. Here I go!

You are doing wonderfully, tully. Your last post is good to hear.

I didn't mean at all that I am ever so busy that posting is difficult, only that I find it difficult to be consistent because I do not have internet access at home. If I am helping at all then I am very glad to be doing so.

Things to pack: I'm still thinking about documents. What about your European Union reciprocal agreement health cards? We in the UK have to take these when we go on holiday, as well as private health insurance. Your kids won't automatically be entitled to see a doctor, even in EU Ireland, without those cards.

A book or two each, in French, so that your kids can have their bedtime stories?

I'll let you know if I think of anything else!

I thought of something, tully. Is this your scenario:

The children have French passports and their father’s surname.

You use an Irish passport and your maiden surname (only) is shown on it.

If so, take your wedding certificate.

A Canadian acquaintance here in London was taking her children to see her family. She had a Canadian passport in her maiden name, they British ones and their father’s surname. The British officials would not let her depart. They had no way of knowing that the children were hers. If she had had her certificate they would have let her travel. This had never come up before because she had never gone abroad with them but without him as well. She had to frantically ring her H to go to the airport and give his word that she was their mother. I don’t think the issue was about being married and needing his permission, or about the father (married or unmarried) having the right to approve travel abroad. I think it was solely that, the way the passports were arranged, there was no proof that she was entitled to take them abroad.

Take your certificate, You don’t want to be stopped like this. Leave a copy for him if you’ve time to get one. You don’t want to have communication with him over anything once you leave.

You've already booked the tickets now but I wanted to chime in and say that from my perspective you are doing the right thing. In Ireland you will have a proper support network and you will be insulated from his wretched behavior.

Sure he'll freak. He's been calling the shots and cake-eating, and he's been a selfish pig. He won't like it at all that you refuse to settle for his extremely poor treatment of you.

I disagree that it will destroy any chance of making things work out between the two of you. If things don't work out, it will be because he does not have it within himself to be a real husband, not because you stood up for yourself and your standards.

Especially with your health worries (get that liver checked out asap!) you need to be with people who will love and care for you.

Don't give your MIL a second thought. Her fear is leading her to ask you to stifle your own best interests. She doesn't have your courage, but I'm sure someday she'll look back and see (even if she doesn't admit it) that you did the right thing.

I'll be holding you up in prayer. Let us know as soon as you get to the 'other side'.

tully, you are doing the right thing. Your WH needs to feel the crushing gravity of the situation to knock the cobwebs out of his head. He will surely freak out but this is your best chance to get back the H you love and not settle for the sad excuse of a H you have now. And if by some chance, WH shrugs his shoulders with a "whatever" attitude then you will have confirmation that you REALLY are doing the right thing. As SC said, no one in their right mind is going to defend your H's ongoing contact with his tramp and think you should just suck it up with whatever crumbs your H throws your way.

While I'm sure you will feel the desire to contact WH, it will probably be of some relief that you have removed yourself from his direct abuse. You have gone through a lot these past months and your family and friends are there to support you...let them love and protect you and your children. You do not have to put on a brave face 24/7...just let them be there for you and enjoy your sweet babies. Cry, laugh, scream during this time away from WH to try and heal from the hurt and anger as best you can.

Prayers to you.

Sugar, I got my married and maiden names put on my passport exactly for this purpose but I will bring marriage cert just in case. Thanks for the reminders, I will remember the books.

Neak and BR, you have both been rocks of common sense!! I am feeling a bit nostalgic this evening. All is going well but I feel a certain tenderness for WH, wondering if how long it will be before I see him again. He is totally absorbed in his fog, of course, so I think I could cavort naked around the house and he wouldn't notice (I am contemplating doing that later on - for me, I add, not for him - as I might be deprived for a while!) Maybe we'll never be together like this again. It makes me feel a bit sad about the whole thing even if I have a strong feeling that I'm moving on to better things no matter what way things go.

I'll be in touch when I get to the 'other side' as you say, Neak although my dad only has dial-up. I told him the story today and he's a bit upset but it did me good to be put in a postion to make excuses for WH as it reminded me of the 'forgiveableness' of his actions.

Wish me luck!

Hurry his journey to the bottom - I agree 100%.

Bon voyage