I think your probably right. She only mentioned the 'We were using each other' thing one or time times. The they had feelings for each other however has been mentioned numerous times and based on what she did and said I would have to agree. I think she meant they were 'using' each other to make each other happy. But in a sense we all 'use' each other to make ourselves happy. But I don't mean 'use' in a bad way. I think my WW and the OM are/were two very selfish people (duh, right?). My WW has admitted freely that she was very selfish - she wanted what she wanted (the A and the attention, etc) and didn't want to give it up. The OM did not care about his own wife very much and I'm sure it wasn't very hard for him to get involved with my wife. One thing that bothers me though it that my WW says she felt very bad a lot during the A about what she was doing. She even says she cried a lot about it and would cry to the OM (yuck) because she had no one else to turn to. If she felt so bad then why didn't she stop?

Could be that WW is trying to blow off her feelings (real or fantasy) for OM because he dumped her and that's her way of coping with being used.

I very happy to hear your recovery is going well. I hope to be in the same place as you someday. I do agree that finding this MB has been a blessing. And we have already had some happy days - I just need to come to grips with some of the issues I'm feeling. I just hope my wife can help me through it. She is somewhat reluctant because she feels whenever we discuss things it makes me feel worse and she doesn't want to put me in anymore pain so she tends to avoid it.

I agree. It's likely that he was using her, but she fell for him.

Guys will chat for a loooooong time if there's a piece of tail at the end of the conversation.

I don't know. She's very closed off on how she feels towards the OM. She guards this very closely. She says she is getting over him but I wonder how she really feels that he hasn't bothered to call her. She won't say. She just says he knows better then to try to call based on how much hurt he already has called. Its almost like she respects him as a stand up guy for not calling and that really pisses me off. Her feelings toward the OM is definitely one of our issues. She has no ill will towards him what so ever. She believes they were wrong for what they did but that's it. She wishes him the best in his future life and hopes we can have a good M. Its almost like she's giving up the love of her life and knows she can't have him but it willing to sacrifice it for the good of our family and me.

This is exactly how I feel in my situation , but you put it much better than me.

I empathize. I WISH my WW would seethe against him like I do. I feel like my WW is protecting OM too, when she really should be DISGUSTED by him. I want her to puke when she thinks of OM, but right now she just pines and holds him in a secret place in her heart. I really think that if she did start to be angry at him, resent him for the role he played in the destruction of our lives (the RIGHT response to the piece of crap OM), then that would really help me start to get over all this.

I feel compelled to chime in on this conversation because our situations bear remarkable similarities Upside_Down, and as pointed out, that is one of the blessings of a forum such as this. You and I are similar ages as well as our WW's (I am 36, she 32)The OM for me is also a 50 y/o man. This has baffled me but I can see some of the fullfillment of emotional needs from that end that I have unfortunately neglected. You can read my posts about some emails OM wrote that gives you some insight into the character (or lack thereof) of who I've been dealing with, but in reference to this discussion I'd like to say this. OM has literally showered my wife with gifts, poems, flowers, etc. and has pulled out all the stops to woo and pursue her. He has lavished her with attention and it has felt impossible to compete with. And yet, he has also enticed her to very destructive behavior and even at this point, she's failed to see the destructive consequences her decisions have brought. I felt very much like second best for awhile and some of my major protests have been "how can you give this total stranger preference over ME, your husband!?"

Yet a turning point for me came in a conversation which she said "he makes me a better person". I had to laugh out loud at that. "Really?", I asked. "I'm sorry, but I just can't see that. He's made ME a better person". I've risen to the challenge, recovered from a near-fatal illness, kept my children sane and stable, held down the fort with daily life, and instilled healthy, positive habits that have improved me as a person immeasurably. She, on the other hand, is a shaky, unstable, addicted mess. My once health nut, near vegan, yoga instructor wife, is now a binge drinking, cigarette smoking, cocaine snorting monster. Who has made who better, I had to ask. She had no reply of course. All this made me realize that my own value and worth isn't based on her temporal feelings and perceptions and that only I can take care of myself. I can only change and control myself. As the battle rages around me, I can breath deep and easy, knowing my flag is firmly planted on the moral high ground, and when all is said and done, I win no matter what the outcome is.

I don't know. I really would like to believe he was only using her. But I'm not so sure. I think unfortunately for me he really did like her. I think they were legitimate friends 1st before it went physical. I'm not denying he wanted to bang her - after all this guys is 50 years old and his wife was not the most attractive (even though she was only 34 - the OM must have liked them young) and my wife is pretty attractive. And as a guy I have an idea of what guys will do sometimes to get some. Not something to be proud all the time of but a fact of life.
I do agree that he did play her to a certain extent though. I mean how many 50 year guys would want to be around a young mom with 3 small children. But at the same time the OM had a young son so that was one thing the OM and my WW had in common. They were also 'helping' each other out. Also, did I mention that the OM 1st wife had an A on him and left him? He really should have known better. Maybe he was getting his revenge at my expense.

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As I was catching up on this thread your lament at being the second choice is nothing more then you throwing yourself a pity party. Other's in your place have done the same here. However in the Second Choice Hypothesis there is no safety in numbers. This means that the Second Choice Theory is false.

Your WW went out and found an OM to have fun with. No different then any other WW.

"how do I get past the thought that I was 2nd best during the A? My wife choose the OM over me in terms of wanting to be with him more, wanting to talk with him more, etc."

Yes there was a competition, the OM took the lead but was not able to maintain it. He lost he was second best.

"feel like I'm the runner up prize. I feel like she had 'true' love and a deep connection with the OM that she never had with me and even though she choose me I can't help but feel like I will be competing against this OM for the rest of my life"

You must tell your WW how you feel and let her respond to your doubts. Give her the chance, no better to tell her to convince you that you are her first choice.

And eph4 beat to the punch:

"Actually, its worse than that. My OM is really a piece of crap -- not as successful, never will be, totally bankrupt morally. But I almost wish he was better than me ... because now, I'm stuck with feeling that she chose OM over ME. If he's a piece of crap (rest assured, he IS), what does that make me?"

If you feel the OM was better then you, you lose. If you feel the OM was worse then you, you lose.

I have been reading here for a long time. No need to go into details of what made the OM/OW better, sometimes the OM/OW is better then the BH/BW, sometimes worse, sometimes the OP will not deviate from their type as far as appearances go when selecting their AP.

A person can not just measure themselves. One's worth is not the sum of their individual characteristics. It's how those individual characteristics blend together and their end
result.

Repeat a joke. The ideal man to every woman is the 6 6 6 model. Six foot tall, six figure income, and he has at least six inches.

Keep in mind if this affair is only over for a month. She has not come to terms with what she has done, or gone through withdrawal for the OM. So there maybe some pinning for the OM.

Good questions. The simple answer is usually that she decided it was easier or more rewarding to invest with OM. Again, this does not infer some special quality to OM, it has more to do with circumstance. To answer these questions depends a little on what your WW is like, what you are like, and what your M was like.

To try and give an example, take the EN of conversation. Early in a M, a person may meet this need very well. You chit chat, talk about fun things, your hopes, your dreams, etc. But after a while, most of the conversations turn to real life issues. Money, the kids, what annoys you about your spouse, etc. While these are important topics, most people don't come out of those conversations feeling bright and cheery. They are a grind. Most spouses try to work through that for a while, but usually, one withdraws.

Eventually, they meet OP. One day, they say to other person, "I've always dreamed of being a ...." For years, everytime they said that to their spouse, the spouse responded with something like, "Oh, there's no way we could do that, we need your income, or whatever..." However, OP responds with "oh, I think you'd be a great ...". Voila, OP understands them, cares about them. They have never felt this way before. To me, in a nutshell, this is the "fog". A distorted view of reality. Its ascribing some special "soulmate" quality to OP because of his response relative to the spouse's. When a much more plausible explanation to his response is that he doesn't have any real life concerns. They aren't married, trying to raise kids, trying to pay the bills, etc.

Now, this dynamic does not occur in ONS, but in the EA/PA's, I think it happens quite a bit. And it just spirals away from there. Once they "cross the line", the WS needs to continue to justify it. Every bit of reality they view needs to be "bent" to support their actions.

OMG.....RHW,


This is an AWESOME POST....should go into Pep's Notable Posts if you ask me......


I've been on MB going on a year now, and I have NEVER EVER heard that saying..."The grass is greener where you water it".....OMG....I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE IT......

LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS post.....very helpful for BS in early recovery, and I personally consider early recovery the first entire YEAR....

not2fun

I realize I may be biased because your W is my OW and my H is your OM (not literally but you know what I mean) and I loathe OW not simply because she is the OW but because of the things she did/said after discovery. I know my H used OW. That is a struggle for me...how could you do that to another human being. But if he was willing to crap on his wife and children then obviously he didn't really care about "hurting" her either. But she also willing signed up for the program so can't feel sorry for her. You act like a sl_t, you'll get treated like one. She used my H too.

Not saying that ALL women need emotion to have sex but many do. My OW was planning a life with my H and thought H was going to leave me for her. Based on the things going on in our life, I know 100% that there was no way in the world that was H's thoughts. He was never leaving me which then leads to a whole other set of WTFs. What's worse a man who is willing to keep dabbling on the side and comes home to lie to my face everyday or a woman who is waiting around like a vulture hoping my family falls apart...I don't know. I could drive myself crazy analyzing it to death.

So maybe I do see some of my OW in your W. H didn't love her and she was left standing there like a big dope and had try an laugh it off like she didn't really care. Yeah right.

I think maybe that's what's going on here, if you change "H" to "OM".

I'd bet anything that one reason this OM went after a generation-younger AP was that he could easily manipulate her emotions...especially a woman who is already immature enough to cheat in the first place.

My guess is that she's hiding her true feelings very well right now, "for the sake of her husband". :RollieEyes:

Oh yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head. I definitely have a lot of pity for myself. Which is not constructive I know but I guess I feel since I have been hurt so bad I deserver some pity. Have to get over that.



True. In reality there was nothing really special in what they did.




Interesting way to put it. My wife admitted that she put the OM 1st during the A but I guess she is putting me 1st now by choosing me. Part of my doubt though is wondering if all things were equal (no kids, same age, etc) who would she choose? Why I torture myself with wanting to know I don't know. It doesn't really mater because its impossible. And there will always be someone better out there for you if you look for it.



I have told her this. Unfortunately she doesn't really convince me - she basically just says yes I put him 1st and now I'm choosing you. Let's move on.


Great way to put it. A true no-win scenario.



I use to think my wife felt this way about me - maybe I wasn't the most talktive but overall she loved me for the person I was. This A has defintly shaken that belief. I need to get it back on my own.




WEll since the OM was about 5'6" and I am 6 feet tall maybe I have at least 1 of 3 of this traits going for me....

USD,

I think it would be completely fair for you to tell your WW that she must convince you that you are her first choice. It may be too soon for that. since this is obviously hurting you and it is her doing she should try to fix it.

I'm wondering if the problem isn't slightly different than thinking he is better or her first choice. I get the impression that you are shaken that she chose some slutty sex over your happiness. SO maybe the real problem is that you're happiness, or even deep despair, are lower on her priorities than her getting off with a guy she barely knows.

I know for me the real end was when I saw how selfish, childish and shallow my xW really is.

Good way of putting it. For my wife communicating her true feelings has been an issue in our M the past couple of years. And mostly due to my fault. I don't want to pretend I was the perfect H and my wife has an A for no reason at all. We had problems, no doubt. And me ignoring her emotional needs was a big one. I just didn't realize it. I thought going to work and supporting the family was good enough. I still think its way up there on the list but there is more. My wife needs more. I need more.
I happen to think this OM was very unhappy in his own life. His 1st wife had an A and left him. He got his 2nd wife pregnant before they were married and married her to do the 'right' thing but resented her for it. And then all of a sudden here is my wife. Young, attractive, and craving attention. (My wife and the OMW were best friends so that's how my wife met him). I do happen to think he took advantage of the situation a bit to suit his needs. But my wife will hear none of that - she says we were both 50 50 responsible. I just think she doesn't want to accept that fact that just maybe the OM wasn't perfect and did manuiplate here a bit. Why she doesn't want to think anything bad of the OM is very frustrating to me. She has plenty of bad things to say about me but this OM is perfect.
Krazy, I think you may be right. I think she may be hiding her true feelings for the sake of me. She has said she is afraid I'm going to leave and is scared she is going to say the wrong thing (like telling me the whole truth) that will finally put me over the edge and say enough it enough.

That's what I want- for her to convince me that I am her 1st choice. But she can't at least in words. She is here. She did choose me. So that does count for something.

As for the sex, no that is not the issue. It does bother me obviously that she did with the OM, and SF was a HUGE issue in our M. I wanted it too much and she didn't. But yet she had no problem banging the OM. But that's another thread.

No actually she knew this guy very well. We were all friends. The deep connection/love she has for the OM is what really is getting to me.

I am beginning to see how selfish my wife is - and I honestly don't know if she can change. She says she wants to but we will see. I have sent her emails and stuff asking her to respond to certain questions and she never can. Too busy. This or that comes up. Yet she could talk to the OM for 3 hours a day. Very frustrating that she doesn't want to help me work this stuff out.

USD,

I think I'm close. Instead of responding directly to the issue that you are now seeing that your wife puts her own simple pleasures so high on her priorities that she was willing to devastate you. You chose to point out unimportant details of the A.

It took me a long time to really see the depth of selfishness that was there in my xW. It was easier to wallow in the concern that the OM was better, even though objectively I am much better then he is. You are young and he is pretty old, so soon you will be alot better than him. However, your WW will still be very very selfish.

Good point. I really don't know what my WW wanted. She says she had no intention of leaving me but I heard her say to the OM one time when talking about work schedules "for the family I have and the life that my H has and even if I get with you (the OM).."

WTF does that mean? She said she was just talking about 'what if' but never really considering leaving and truth be told she did dump him immediately after I busted them so maybe she was just BS'ing.

For my wife, I think she had a EA that turned into a PA that then caused it to turn into the whole I'm in love A. At least that's what she says. But how did she drop it so quickly? How can she go from saying to the OM "promise you will never leave me" to not ever talking to him again? Did she snap back to reality as she said to me? Sounds almost too good to be true.

I hear you about the analyzing. All these crazy what if questions in your head that just play over and over. That's one of biggest consequence of the A I think - all these doubts is creates about stuff you never thought about before. You just took it for granted that you would be M forever and be in love with each other.