Hello, <P>I have read through this site as well as many other books and I am still a little confused. I am not sure I am in the right place, so if I'm not please tell me.<P>My question is when does an opposite sex friendship become an affair?<P>My wife and I have been married 16 years. we have 4 children and we are both Christians. She and I were having marriage problems last year. I basically ignored her too much I think. She met this guy friend at work. I found that they were emailing each other quite often. It seems my wife is the one who keeps the friendship going. The emails are friendly but not too friendly (i.e. no talk of love for each other or sex or anything like that). <P>I noticed in the emails that she rarely talks about me. She doesn't say anything about our marriage being in trouble either. <P>I have found they call one another on the cell phone sometimes and they meet for lunch too. They might meet about once every other week or so. <P>All of this bothered me and she told me they are just friends. She told me they met at work and there isn't any thing going on. <P>Our marriage is doing better but she doesn't show me any love or attention. If we go out, it is only at my suggestion not hers. We talk a lot but she doesn't like talking about her friends. She said she wanted some of her own friends and some autonomy and space from me.<P>If you need more information about us I can provide more. I just wanted to know if this kind of friendship is OK or am I too paranoid that my wife is messing around.<P>Thank you for listening to me.<P>Fool No More

.Dangerously sounding like an emotional affair...not too far away comes the sex.<BR>I never thought my wife could but she did and is(?).<BR>Talk to your wife about your uncomfortableness with their freindship.<P>Keep posting and i'm sue others here have more experience than me.Good luck.

I don't think you're paranoid.<P>Your wife may not realize that she is emotionally attached to this guy...but she is, and sooner or later it will most likely lead to something more.<P>I don't think there is anything wrong with having opposite sex friends, but when the contact with the "friend" happens often and alone it could lead to trouble.<P>My affair started out being a close friendship...although I wouldn't have called it an affair at the time. It seemed so innocent sharing my thoughts and feelings with this other man and was innocent in my mind...I really didn't want it to lead to anything. But, I got emotionally attached to this guy and it was hard to let go.<P>If you wife isn't showing you any love or affection she probably feels that she doesn't need it from you. Her emotional needs might be getting met elsewhere.<P>I'm not saying that your wife is having an affair...I'm only speaking from my experience. Who knows, I could just be a weak person that can't have a close opposite sex friendship.<P>

Fool no more - I hate to scare you but what you describe is exactly the way my husband's affair started. When I showed concern about the time they spent together (all supposedly work related) I was attacked for being the envious and suspicious wife who keeps him from living his life to the fullest. After a couple of years he stopped mentioning her except to ask me to buy her a birthday present from him because he was too busy to shop. By that time they were hot and heavy into a year long true affair well beyong work related friendship. I was in total denial because I feared alienating him by asking any questions. During that year they spent every Sat. and Sunday together supposedly working. He didn't give me any "love and affection" and said he wanted "autonomy and space" and was very busy at work. At the same time our marriage seemed to "be going better". During this time my then closest girlfriend suggested my husband may be having an affair. I yelled at her for suggesting such a thing as I thought he had so much character and conscience he would never do such a thing. The only advice I can offer is don't be blind, work with your wife on your marriage. Please try to get her to agree to go to counseling with you to learn how to improve your marriage. A spouse in a healthy marriage does not give attention and support to a friend of the opposite sex that they could and should be giving to their spouse - your wife seems to find time for lunch dates with her male friend but never suggests that the two of you go out? Trust your instincts.

Watch out. My wife was telling me the same thing last year after 16 years of marriage. Needless to say, it became physical. You need to start talking now, because it is extremely painful once the relationship with OM deepens.<P>------------------<BR>tanker0076<BR>

Thank you for your replies.<P>Holly, When you said you didn't want it to lead to anything, why did it happen then? Were you on good terms with your husband? At what point does it lead to something more? And was there anything your husband could have done to keep you from going further than you wanted?

Fool No More,<P>Well, you've heard it from the other here. I'll just support what they're saying.<P>Both my affairs started off the same way. I was simply friends. In fact, for the second one, I didn't even think I'd be romantically involved AT ALL. But all the things that you describe about your wife and her "friend" are very similar to how we behaved at first.<P>Even if she is not emotionally involved right now (which seems rather unlikely, given the amount of time she spends on/with him), the chances of it turning in that direction are <B>very</B> high!<P>Make your wife aware of your worries. These feelings of yours are not unfounded suspicions. They are <B>concerns</B> for your marriage. Make your wife understand the difference. You are not trying to make her give up her life or whatever. You are trying to make her see that she is putting your marriage in jeopardy!<P>--andy

These replies certainly have me scared now. Maybe I have been too trusting of her.<P>Simone - In hindsight, what would you have done differently?<P>What should I say so that she doesn't blow up at me and think I'm not giving her space and autonomy?

Oy vey...another one.<P>Fool No More:<P>Read my profile. I've got the same thing with my H. Whether I still do or it's in the past remains to be seen. But it's the same deal. 15 years together, 13 years married. Spring 1998 I was finishing my master's degree and getting into writing. I'd always had my own interests, and H never seemed to mind.<P>This time, he had a whole circle of people at work, mostly women, that he hung out with. There I was, at school, writing, and only after a few months did I notice he was going out 3-4 nights a week with his friends from work, most of whom were female. Gradually, he started talking more and more about one of them, who eventually became his immediate supervisor.<P>To make a long story short, something just didn't seem right. Every time I tried to say that I wasn't comfortable with this, he got very angry and defensive. <P>Sound familiar?<P>Yeah, I've had the same deal -- check the E-mails, found nothing incriminating, nothing about me, except once -- when he lost his job and needed someone to talk to other than me (because I wasn't supportive enough, I suppose).<P>This went on August 1998 - March 1999 when I came here. Went into immediate Plan A. Stopped all outside activities, including friends. Good mood every night when I came home. Planned recreational things for us to do together. Made him the center of my universe. <P>So where am I now? Well, my H is still very self-centered (see my recent posts), but things are a lot better. Dragon Lady is still a factor, but less so. However, I still mistrust, and always will, as long as he's in contact with her (which he is, through work).<P>Your W is unlikely to give up this friendship just because you tell her to. She is probably defensive about it, because either she's had some feelings for this guy that she knows she shouldn't, or something else is going on.<P>The bottom line in these situations, and it's hard to accept, is that YOU CANNOT CHANGE WHAT SHE DOES. YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE WHAT YOU DO.<P>A book that's very helpful in these situations is HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page. This book will help you change YOUR half of the interaction. When your half changes, her half will have to change, because she's used to reacting to certain stimuli, and if the stimuli are different, her response will be different.<P>Another useful site, <A HREF="http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/</A> has a "Question of the week" section, in which there's stuff about opposite-sex friends and emotional affairs. In one of these, Peggy Vaughan says that the best you can do is try to lessen her NEED for this outside contact. Plan A in this situation helps you do that.<P>Yes, the friendship is inappropriate. An opposite sex friendship that does not include you is inappropriate. An opposite sex friendship with secrecy is inappropriate. For months, my H went out with these friends, even went to parties, and never invited me. Now, we go as a couple. It's hard for me, because I despise this woman with every fiber of my being...but I'd rather go than not go.<P>That your W is not affectionate with you and that she talks about "needing space" is not a good sign. I was lucky in that my H didn't change towards me. When I'm not feeling paranoid, hurt, and angry, I feel perhaps I nipped it in the bud, before it could progress. I fear perhaps your W's friendship has made that progression, due to her distancing behavior.<P>If you can confront her in a "safe" manner, and tell her how uncomfortable this "friendship" makes you, try it and see how she reacts. If she flies off the handle, like my H does, you may have to go into this peculiar "nondisclosure Plan A" that I've been in for over six months.<P>I'd say E-mail me, but I have a rule against any E-mail contacts with the opposite sex of any kind. But feel free to ask me questions here -- I'll be happy to answer.<P>

Well said Dazed and Confused. My W made the same identical statments about "me not being so needy" and "he is only just a friend".<P>I'm glad you mentioned the book by Susan Page. I was considering ordering it and now I will. <P>As the betrayed, you have got to build yourself up, physically, spiritually and emotionally, because if you do, your spouse will notice. With my experience, good is coming from this situation.<P>------------------<BR>tanker0076<BR>

FNM - add my welcome and my agreement to the others. My h's affair started as a friendship. Talking at work, just lunches. Took a while, but - well, here I am. <P>Listen to the advice you've been given. It's gold and there's no need for me to repeat it.<P>Good luck.<P>lori

FNM:<P>Sorry to say this but that's how most of them start. I went that route. Lunch, E-mails, Phone calls, then a little time "after" work. Then maybe a "Saturday" or "holiday". Just to talk right? Then you sit in the car for a while and one of you leans over for a little consoling hug or a peck on the cheek, and then, and then.....<P>Been there, seen it, done it. If only I would have been as smart then as I am now, but alas, it was just a "friendship" and nobody had the right to interfere with a mere "friendship" right? Wrong. I wish my W would have screamed and hollered and scared the Hell out of me before I went brain numb. So sit down and "nicely", 'calmly" talk things out. Maybe lead your W to this forum so she can read all of our stupidities and that might just save your marriage.<P>Any person who says they can have a platonic relationship with a person of the opposite sex without developing feelings after a while is either a fool or a liar. Or perhaps both. I was.<P>Flip

Fool No More - You asked what with hindsight I would have done differently. At the time our marriage seemed to be "okay" in that there were no major blowups. However, I was very unhappy it wasn't better and didn't know how to make it better. For us I did all the wrong things like making sure the house was always clean, cooking his favorite meals, being a supermom to our daughter etc. Also my H was unhappy but I really didn't know why. When my H was withdrawn and spent so many hours away from home it made me sad and lonely but I didn't say anything because I thought I was respecting his need for "space". (something I thought men needed) I wish I had said I was not happy and I know our marriage can be so much better - please work with me to make it good so we are both happy. Please tell me what you need from me;how I can make you feel more loved by me. In general I wish I had spoken up and was able to articulate how I felt instead of being so fearful of his reaction. I also wish I had initiated sex more and set up "dates" together more. I never wanted to intrude on his space at work so I hardly ever visited. In hindsight I would have made my presence known by visiting him there frequently - and behaving like a happily married woman so the ow could "see" what she was trespassing on. (though she must have known she was destroying a family) I also would have said I know you have too strong of a character and conscience to ever have an affair but I have noticed how much time you are spending with ow. I know your work is important to you but it hurts my feelings that you spend so much more time with her than with me. Can we find a solution so I don't feel this way. (H told me he justified his affair because he thought I really didn't love him, didn't care) All this would have had to have been done early on because at some point my husband put a mask on me to convince himself that he was married to an uncaring woman who only wanted to hold him down - this gave him the green light that he deserved the ow he referred to as his "oasis".<BR>My husband has also said for a long time he didn't even know he was having an affair. Perhaps it would be helpful if you gave your wife some of the literature on how (and why) affairs begin.<BR>Does your wife show any signs of depression? I know my H was depressed at the time.<BR>Hope there was something in this that may be helpful. There is probably a lot more I could have done (if done early on) - if I can think of any thing particularly significant I will let you know. Trust your instincts early on, before it is too late. Don't deny there is a problem -- talk to her lovingly without yelling, arguing or blaming. One more very important thing - take care of yourself emotionally and physically so you are strong and attractive, not weak and needy.<BR> Simone<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Simone (edited October 19, 1999).]

I agree with what my fellow posters have written. My affair started as a friendship too. He was someone I studied with. As an engineer, I'm surrounded by men. I studied with men as an undergraduate and things never got out of hand. I thought I was safe. WRONG! My H tried to warn me, but I too felt he was being paranoid. Those feelings developed slowly over time, plus I was in a new place, new environment and was having problems meeting other women for friendship because, again, as an engineer there aren't alot of women around. It was so easy to talk to him about my problems, etc. One thing led to another and here I am....<P>My H, too, fell prey to the opposite sex friendship dilemma. During our separation, he went on a vacation with a "friend" of his that I had been suspicious about. <P>After my divorce, I briefly dated a guy that had women friends. I didn't like it, and the more I got to know him, it became obvious that we could never have a long-term relationship because of his insistence on keeping these women friends. The way I saw it, time spent with them should include me. Time spent with them alone should have been time spent with me--alone. I think people who claim that they gotta keep their opposite sex friends tend to be passive-aggressive people and just aren't trying hard enough to make same sex friends.

FNM--<P>I guess what I meant was that I wasn't looking for my friendship with the OM to lead into anything. I thought that there was no problem with me be close to the OM. I didn't realize that strong feelings were developing for him. When we were in the "right" environment and he acknowledged his feelings for me I in turn did the same thing. We were on a business trip in Lake Tahoe when the affair started.<P>I thought that I was on good terms with my husband at the time...but, now that I look back on it things weren't so great. My husband and I had grown apart after only 2 years of marriage. I had my own interests and friends and we didn't pay much attention to one another...we were basically roomates. I didn't realize that I was getting my emotional needs met elsewhere, so I felt that there were not any major issues between my husband and I because I was happy doing my own thing.<P>In my case it led to something more when my husband and I were moving. The trip to Lake Tahoe were my last days at work and I think the OM and I realized how close we had become and that we meant alot to each other. Looking back, I now realize by allowing myself to get close to this OM that I dug my own grave. When I felt that my husband and I were growing apart I should have worked on getting closer instead of turning to someone else. My husband and I are now in the process of doing that.<P>My husband probably could have shown that he cared more. My h is very layed back and had no problem with us doing our own things...he's very independent. He was perfectly happy not connecting with me...whereas I was extremely lonely in the marriage. I felt the OM loved me more than my husband because he met my emotional needs for conversation and admiration...these were not being met by my husband.<P>Try downloading the emotional needs questionnaire on this website and take the test with your wife.<P>

Talk... Talk... Talk...<P>PLEASE try to do what so many of us didn't or couldn't until it was too late. It seems so clear that something is close to happening (happened?) that will impact your future as a couple. And, all of the advice you're hearing on these posts is pretty consistent. There is reason for concern!!<P>The opposite sex friendship is such a problem with so many people that have visited the MB website. See "Truth or Lies I and II." It provides such an easy escape when minor issues at home are allowed to fester.<P>I'm on the other side: I think my W has crossed the line on a friendship with the opposite sex. 15+ years of marriage, two great kids, a wonderful career, and now problems. In hindsight, had I paid more attention to the signs that trouble was brewing -- YEARS AGO -- I don't think I'd be here. Although the other sex friendship didn't become apparent until about a year or two ago, I gave her the opportunity to seek those emotional points elsewhere. <P>PLEASE talk, if possible in a positive way. If something is going, the truth will hurt. But, It'll hurt a lot more the longer it's burried in deception.<P>Good luck

Sorry for double post. Computer problems now rival those in marriage!<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited October 19, 1999).]

haha keystone... and agreed!<P>Fool No More,<P>Yup, you've heard it here before... this sounds like an emotional affair that *could* lead to something more.<P>I also had a friend at work and we got REAL close REAL quick... and I ended up in such a mess. Within a three month period my H had moved out, the OM said he needed more time to leave his significant other (SO), and I had jumped in the sack with him, even though I cried most of the way through it because I KNEW how wrong it was. I've said it before, it wasn't making love, it was a roll in the hay because it wasn't real. It was a fantasy. However, the STD tests, and the biggie HIV test in two weeks are very real. Ask you W NOW, and show her oodles of love as you navigate your way through this.<P>Best wishes...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 19, 1999).]

FNM,<P>Trust your instincts here. No matter what this is an inappropriate friendship. After what went on with my husband I no longer believe in opposite sex friendships unless both people H & W are friends with the person. <P>Tell your wife how you feel. About your insecurities. Plan A to death. Tell her you are unhappy with the way your relationship is and that you want to go to marriage counseling. <P>Get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley. Have her read the case study, the first one in the book.<P>The betrayer doesn't often plan to get into an affair. It happens often slowly but, they know what is happening. Not often is it a love at first site thing. It builds out of friend ship. <P>If this man is truly her friend then he'd want to get to know you because we all want to know our friends families. Right?<P>I will be lifting you and yours up in prayer. <P>Your wife is nearing 40? That seems to be another very common denominator here.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Flipper, I beg to disagree with you, that you wish your W had begged, screamed, and pleaded with you, that if she had, you would have capitulated and not had your affair. That's nonsense.<P>The fact is that you couldn't see what was happening, and all her posturing would have just been perceived by you as nagging. Believe me. It would have. I tried it, and all I got was more defensiveness.<P>Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you as a spouse can do about such "friendships." Adults will do what they want, not what someone tells them too. All you can do is recognize it as a potential problem, talk about it with your spouse if your spouse will let you (mine didn't; I had to resort to giving him a letter, and whether he took it to heart remains to be seen), and Plan A to death -- and hope.<P>Unfortunately, that's the reality. Because these things start out as "friendships", and the person involved in them sees them as such, the uncomfortable spouse seems "unreasonable" to complain -- as if the presence or absence of sex is the only factor.