DaltonDad, here is your thread from the last affair{?} back in 2004. She was willing to do NOTHING back then to recover and wouldn't even leave the job where she still saw the OM. here

You have trained her to abuse you. She doesn't believe you will ever divorce her, because she knows you have no boundaries.

You can see how this has turned out. If you have no plan of recovery, this will be your future. I told you this in 2004 and I am telling you again 2009, if nothing changes THIS IS YOUR FUTURE.

And I will tell you also that it probably won't be pretty. People have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from living like this. And you have been living like FOREVER. I have no doubt that you have been living with a sick, queasy feeling FOR YEARS, haven't you? How many years have you been beating down your instincts that were screaming SOMETHING IS WRONG! SOMETHING IS WRONG!

Can you continue to live like this for 10 more years?

Here is what Dr. Harley told a woman over on the weekend forum who was in a very similar marriage with a serial cheater:

"Your husband appears to be in what I call the "fog." He is not willing to do anything to end his affair, and he is not willing to do anything to restore his marriage with you. He is emotionally divorced from you.

I would encourage you to begin planning now for Plan B. It may take six months or more before you can separate from him, but my best guess is that his affair is nowhere close to ending. I would encourage you to confront him with what you've learned, and tell others in your family, including your children, what you are going through. But it won't motivate him to end his affair. All it's likely to do is make him angry. Nonetheless, I always recommend getting an affair out into the open as a first step toward ending it.

It's possible that your husband has had multiple affairs throughout your marriage, and he starts them over the internet, or with women he meets in his business. Apparently, he feels that there is nothing you can do to stop him, and he doesn't seem to worry about you divorcing him. I usually recommend Plan A as a initial response to learning about an affair, but in your case, Plan A is unlikely to work, and will probably cause you to experience severe emotional trauma."

Her last affair was also with a guy she met at work. She never left the job either. here

Seabird has a line that was very apt for this situation:

"If you can't have a good marriage, at least have a good divorce".

So for the sake of your kids, I would advise you trying for the later.

OMG, You don't know what it is like to have a minutes peace. Please for your own sake. Dump her. You are only given so long on this earth. You deserve to be in love with someone that respects you (which she definitely does not). Save yourself and your kids. Let her live the life of a skanky tramp she desires. You have to much to offer the right woman.

Ditto

Hi Melody,

sorry, for my anger from before. I'm guessing you made me angry because you were speaking the truth. isn't that always the way?

That and the depression I was in drove me out of my tree. I admit I nearly lost it so many times.

WW finally changed jobs. different work place.

I agree that it's her shabby boundaries.

No I can't and won't live like this. Hence, I'm not sure about continuing.

Yet, you say give her a chance to change. Many moons ago, I read about how adults can't really change. That's why so many people on drugs, booze, violence, and self abuse can never break the "habit". Not without a life changing truma.

Thanks for digging that stuff up Melody! Sorta like a video in my mind of the past!
(I'm laughing at myself now)
I was in a bad place then.

This isn't JUST about allowing ongoing contact with a lover.

I looked at your old threads DD and it seemed you were reluctant to talk to your W about her A or other sensitive issues because you were afraid she might get angry. You said she'd win an argument with anyone on these boards, "didn't fight fair", and quiet acceptance might be your lot. A poster even replied this was because women were better than men at arguing - I hope you didn't believe that.

Did I get that right? Has it changed in the last 5 years?

Could I put it to you that your W learned she could do pretty well whatever she pleased in your M and if you didn't like it all she had to do was get angry?

DD - why would she respect someone like that?

I didn't notice any advice for you first time round about dealing with your W's LBs.

I can tell you first hand that living in fear like that is not good for one's mental health. Repeated DJs and AOs from someone you love makes you feel pretty bad about yourself and can send your mind into dark unfamiliar places.

Conversely, REJECTING your spouse's LBs will improve both their and your opinion of you. Certainly helped me. Show her you value you - that you won't be abused - and there's a chance she'll value you too.

If not for your present M, then for your happiness in future relationships, I suggest you read up on boundaries. Learn what to do when your spouse is angry or disrespectful towards you.

How to declare your boundary, and enforce it, *without* being angry or disrespectful yourself. Basically walk away - calmly - at the first AO or DJ, and return to the issue later.

Read Harley's guidelines for negotiation.

You could also get "The Verbally Abusive Man" by Patricia Evans. It's a good catalogue of abuse and helps with recognising and dealing with it. Women use all the techniques she describes too, believe me.

If nothing else, maybe you can learn something from this M.

Thanks for all the comments....

Got WW to open up a bit more about the A last night and this morning.

Seems I know more about her motivation(s) than she does.

I said to her that I assume she and he ( guest that the bar) chatted and flirted over a period of a few weeks or months. She admitted months.
She gave some details.

Claimed the whole thing was a mistake and she screwed up.

She's still a bit of a mess from being in the midst of a chemical abortion, and depsite all my pain, I'm trying to hold her hand through that. Because I do care.

claims it's been over since the ONS, she knew she messed up then.

Getting pregnent is karma I suppose.

as for moving forward, she say's she want's to fix this.

I told her several times I didn't trust her. Don't know if I ever could again.
That I wasn't willing to stay married for the sake of the kids. That it's all on her.

Dalton, they had flirted for months. So then she lied about it being a ONS. Why are you letting her get away with calling it a ONS? That was an affair not a ONS. Did they have contact outside. Was she drunk? Not if she was working while they were flirting. She has no respect for you at all. She needs you now, because she knows that her live in babysitter is at risk. She is a serial cheater and when you get over this, she will be at it again. If you stay with her, I guess we'll be seeing you in another 4 years. Don't do this to yourself and your kids.

I don't believe she'll change either. I would go forward with a divorce, but at the same time tell her here is what it will take to stop this divorce. Have the plan in your hand and give her a CHANCE to demonstrate meaningful change. If she can do it over a few months, then you can stop the divorce. THAT is what I mean about giving her a chance.

"I am getting a divorce because I will not stay in a marriage under these conditions. You are a serial cheater and your cheating is extremely painful to me. However, if you can demonstrate meaningful changes that would result in a recovered marriage, I will consider stopping the divorce."

I would just stick to those talking points and not even negotiate or debate with her. I remember she used to debate and badger you into submission. If she tries that, then just say "this is not up for negotiation. I won't negotiate or debate with my life." Then walk away.

She needs to know and believe you are dead serious. In fact, I would suggest you just file for divorce, on grounds of adultery, on Monday, and THEN tell her Monday night. She will know you are serious versus just telling her you are "going to" file. Then she will think she has a chance to stop you and will try.

And your kids have to be told what she did, DD. If you don't tell them, SHE WILL. And I promise you it will be a story filled with lies, starring you as the demon. Not telling them leaves them vulnerable to her immoral teachings. She may even have already introduced them to her boyfriends. Kids can deal with truth, they can't deal with lies.

p.s. and yes, people can change, but they have to WANT TO CHANGE. You can't change her. She can only do that herself.

I differ with you on this melody. Because it is a serial cheating issue and not an affair. He would really have to wait for years again. It's just that even if she kept her nose clean, he couldn't ever stop snooping. She has screwed him over too many times. This is not a stage she is going through. This is her personality. She cheats and doesn't care how much pain her husband is in. She won't quit her job (at least she wouldn't last time). She is just not worth the risk.

Her hand should not be held. This is very inappropriate. AND DISHONEST. She has done a horrendous, despicable thing. Rewarding her for that is not appropriate. Please don't give sympathy to the devil. I am sick to my stomach just thinking about it.


Ok, what is her plan? Here is what it will take to recover a marriage with a serial cheater and I guarantee ya she will not do this. But her ability to lead a secret second life is what has led to her affairs and that has to be eliminated entirely:

1. take a polygraph to get out past affairs - confess everything

2. no leisure time without you - everytime she goes out it is with you OR NOT AT ALL

3. no more drinking since it seems to lead to situations like this

4. she gives you full access to her cell phone, office voicemail, computer, bank accounts, complete transparency

5. no opposite sex friends

6. no skanks or stupid trashy women for female friends

7. she attends a Marriage Builders weekend with you and learns to start acting like a wife and LEARN TO MEET YOUR NEEDS.

8. CHANGES HER OCCUPATION to one that is not vulnerable to affairs

The above things are what it will take to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage. If she will do those things, you have a chance. And this is not about you telling her what to do, but all about her WILLINGNESS to do what it takes to recover the marriage. If she won't do that, then this is hopeless.

If not, then you need to move on forward. BUT, most importantly, DD, I would file the divorce and then let her PROVE herself. If she doesn't, then you have lost nothing and can get out. You have nothing to lose. But you do have alot to lose if you stay in this marriage under these conditions. ALOT.

Just AGREEING to those things will not be enough because TALK IS CHEAP. You need a DEMONSTRATION. A promise from a liar is meaningless. Get the divorce filed and tell her your plan. And tell her it will "take alot to make me change my mind."

"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."

oh no, I am not suggesting he wait for anything. I am suggesting he file for divorce. And if she DEMONSTRATES a dramatic change, he will consider reconciliation. That might happen before or after the divorce. But I don't believe she will change. I believe she thinks she can do anything to him.

Thank you Melody. As an aside. your post count makes up 0.15% of all the posts here. That would make you an MB-God right?
And messing with gods gets you a lightning bolt to the backside.

Also, I was banned from here. I got to such a low point then, there wasn't much that wouldn't trigger me. A happy couple in a passing car would make me upset.

day alone (90% of them are) with the kids.
Doing laundry. Stewing and feeling myself slipping into anger and rage today.
Trying to put a handle on that. Oddly I don't really have anger management issues. This stuff just brings out the worst in me.

My question...for today. As i'm going to try and follow your instructions.

Should I kick her out? Tell her to, or ask her to leave tonight. Yeah, she's at work today. Or give her a few days?

I'll look into filing for divorce tomorrow.

Thanks
DD

One condition for WW is that she can not work in a bar where she has to be in a position to flirt for tips. You and WW may call it acting pleasant. New profession is in order.

DD
Sorry for all that you are going through. I'm with Melody on this one. There's just no excuse for your W's ONS and especially after your previous experiences. Honestly it doesn't seem like she'll do any of the things Mel listed. As far as kicking her out - you have to consider what you throw at your kids. I'm sure they already sense what's going on and to many drastic changes at once may be hard for them to absord. You might want to slow down and take one step at a time - filing for D first.

GG

DD, check with the attorney first and then come back here and we can brainstorm. I would file first and then talk to her about seperating.

An attorney will try to faciliatate an amicable divorce, but remember he works for YOU. I would tell him you want to file on grounds of adultery, keep the house, have primary custody with no CS payments. Try and get the best deal possible so you and the kids won't lose your home and be financially harmed.

Agree that you have to protect yourself and your kids now. You have done what you could to protect your marriage/family for a long time, yet she has proved she will not join you in those endeavors.

I'm so sorry you are facing this, but without resolute ACTION from YOU, it will be more of the same, ad nauseum. You have nothing to lose that you haven't lost already.

Go for it, and may God be with you. ((((Dalton Dad))))

Right Here Waiting