The only thing worse than coming here,

Is coming back.

Before, I was emotional wreck. I'm so dreading that rollercoaster ride again.

So any way....4 years ago WW was deeply in love. She put me through the ringer, never sure what she wanted. It was nearly 9 months before she started to begin our relationship again. The whole time we lived together, but I never knew if she was being faithful or what. I tried to do everything I should, right out of the books.
As I said, I was an emtional wreck. But I got over it, even trusted her again.

Fast Forward....

I muffed up a text message I was sending her. Wanted her to see it later in the day. Just a sweet note. I saw some odd text's on her phone. Sorta put me on alert. They were from co-workers. So I sent her a note annonymously...telling her to knock it off.
She freaks out. Doesn't know who is playing games. She's really upset.

Finally, because I don't like the lies. I tell her it was me and why. she explains the texts' away. But isn't mad at me. More relieved. I found that odd.

I'm still on alert a bit.

Low and behold, I am checking the kids web browsing, they were using her account, and I find she had been on webmd looking up pregnancy symptoms, ru-486 and the like.

A day later she tells me she concerned that she's having pre-menopausal issues and needs to see the gyno. Just happened to get in the next day (how often does that happen???)
I find her appt sheet, it's got ru-486 written on top.

Oh, btw I've had a vas.

I confront her. Ask her up and down if she's pregnent. NO NO NO!
It's because her period is late, and she may have a cyst.

I look this up, to see if such a thing is approved by the FDA. Nope.

Anyhow. after a lot of yelling she finally fessed up.

Claimed a one night thing. IS/was pregnent (in the midst of her "treatment").
Don't know if I believe I'm getting the whole truth, not sure if it matters.


I'm not sure what to do. She's apologized, said it was a mistake blah, blah, blah.

I've not said much, mostly because she's upset about the ru-486 stuff. Cramping. Not trying to beat her up.

So here I am, back again. Not sure if I should even bother to start again. Not wanting the rollercoaster ride to start, but I already recognize a repeat of the feelings.... That.....Oh I remember that emotion.

Wow, so sorry to hear the latest. How old are your kids?

Kids: 11, 10, 8


what sucks, is before, I can admit I may not have been meeting all her needs (and I know she wasn't meeting mine not that she cared). But now. I know better.

This was a selfish act on her part. Done at my expense.



I work 40 hours a week, get up each morning at 4:15, pack kids lunches. do some house work, get myself ready for work, get the kids up, see them off to school before I'm off to work. Wife sleeps in. works at a resturant/bar. I get home take care of kids and there homeowork make dinner ...

yeah what she did was selfish. and at my expense (my anger getting to me now)

I really don't know if I should throw in the towel. That's what I need help with.

She's not meeting me needs. Sadly, for all I do for the kids....Mom is the hero. That sucks too!

There is a right and a wrong reason for any couple split up. I don't know...Feeling hollow and numb from this... HAHA I can't remember the stages that a BS goes through...shock, sorrow, anger......is that right?

Do you even know WHO is the reason she needed this "treatment?"
Doesn't sound like you know much at all, and she ain't sayin'.

Obviously, she didn't get anything out of your first "reconciliation" after her affair. Do you have ANY reason to think this time will be different?

You need to draw your line in the sand, man.

How often do you have SF with her if at all?

A "V" can reverse itself so be sure to get checked.

Do I know WHO specifically, NO. It's not me, that much I'm certian. My Vas was nearly 7 years ago and our sex is fairly normal (whatever that means) and there's never been an issue. She did fess up to having a ONS, is that the truth? Was there more, is it an emotional A too?

Part of me doesn't care right now. I know how these things work...I could ask a ton of questions. Get a ton of lies and be no better off. Worse really. I can usually tell when she's lying about this stuff.


Rightherewaiting....it's easy to draw a line in the sand. I just don't know what it represents nor which side I want to be on.

Having been through this before, and what I've never understood.. why is it the BS job to fight for the marriage. I did that last time. It nearly cost me my sanity (and my life...things were that bad).

I feel like I've got sit down and do the whole thing again. I just don't want to do it! Not because I don't love my wife. I do. But, it's just a huge task.

DD
Since your WW is obviously not going to tell you anything, I would suggest that you start doing some snooping. Put a GPS tracker on her car and maybe a voice activated recorder, maybe a keylogger on your computer and check any phone records, email accounts, etc. Start digging. You need to do this to protect yourself and then when you know what is really going on you can make a more educated decision.
Best of luck.

Do you know who the OM is?

How did WW meet the OM?

Did you do a full exposure the last time?

Has WW given you access to her phone, computer, email, texts, IM's to verify NC and know new OM's?

WW's lie, ONS, yeah she means one night at a time. WW play book, minimize the amount of the affair.

I did all that last time, and more. Heck, I even hacked the OM's email and cell phone accounts.

I guess, I wonder when is a enough- enough?

You fight for something that's important to you. After a while, you feel it was a worthwhile fight, then BAM! Same-Stuff-Different-Day.

I can't think of a good reason to continue this marriage. Can't ever trust her again. Practically speaking, can't spend all my time checking on her.

Love, I love her but...I'm not sure she loves me equally. The kids.

As much as it would crush them, I'm of the opinion kids deserve to see their parents happy, be that together or apart.

Of course, DD, you DO have to find out what is going on, and you'll have to do your own investigative work. A day or two of a PI, if it comes to that.

Once you've got the info you need, THEN you will have to decide which side of that line in the sand you're on. Nobody would blame you if you filed for D, given her repeat-offender status, if she refuses to get real this time.

Having BTDT before, you KNOW how hard it would be to work on recovery again. The terrible pain of it. The fear of trusting again. Huge, since she didn't seem to learn anything from the first go-round. Maybe impossible.

BTW, to whom have you exposed this second round of waywardness? No matter where you end up, this has to happen, for your sake, the kids' and hers.

Right Here Waiting

No don't know who OM is....I could push and find out I'm certian.

WW met OM at work. Not Cowrkers.

I Mostly did a full exposure last time. Her work, OMW. Didn't expose WW to her family.
I've got access to most of it. Not bothering to play Sherlock Holmes too much more than I already have.


LOL No joke WW's lie. One time could be 1 or 100. I know.


I'm really fixing to just can the marriage. I don't want that, but I also don't want to go through all this BS again.



Just wondering if anyone has a good reason to try yet again...

IMO, 3/4 or more of the recovery work is done by BS. The WS, oh they have to be transparent, a few half hearted attempts to meet your needs, swear and swear they won't do it again. It's the BS on the tightrope.

No haven't exposed this time. I know it step #1. Just not sure when/if I'm going to bother.

Best reason I could think of would be your kids, especially if they're young. How old are they?

And wonder why you did not expose to WW's family last time?
Might be a good idea to expose BOTH A's to them now. At least they'd know the truth, and it could help keep your kids connected to them as grandparents...unless you've got a reason NOT to?

Why didn't I expose WW to her family last time?

The reason exposing is one of the first steps is that it empowers the BS (if I recall correctly).


Anyhow, why didn't I? Because I didn't want to hurt her family. Would it have helped me in the end? Maybe, or maybe not. See part of that become the ill will that the in-laws feel for you.

As a parent you love your children unconditionally. No matter their age.
While it would have empowered me, in the case of her parents it felt vindictive. I didn't feel morally right doing it. I went round and round here, discussing it. No one ever really agreed with me.

My kids, I love them and care for them as nearly a single parent 5 or 6 days a week. I've always felt children need to see their parents happy together or apart.
And children never benifit from seeing their parents fight verbally or physically. Everyone loses.

I just don't have the fight in me for this.

I guess I'm looking for an objective POV that I'm not being too hasty. D-Day was yesterday LOL Friday 13th!

Dalton, what a horrible ordeal. I cannot imagine what you are going through. She obviously can't be faithful. The point is you don't know if she has been doing this the whole time. How could you ever trust her again. I hate it when they say it was a mistake. Like she tripped into a hotel room with her panties off and fell on to some guys member. You don't sound like you have the desire or strength to go through this again. You are absolutely right about the kids. Its better that they see you divorced then their mom making their dad a cuckold. See a lawyer. Know your rights.

DaltonDAd, how many affairs does this make? You know of 2, could there be more?

My suggestion would be to GIVE HER CHANCE to completely change her life around so that she is not placed in vulnerable situations again. For example, that might mean changing occupations and setting up a life with COMPLETE transparency.

The thing is that she is going to have to make a dramatic change to ensure this won't happen again. And if she won't do that, then you will have decide if you are ok living with a serial cheater who will cheat.

Because this is your future unless she makes a DRAMATIC CHANGE. This is not about unmet needs, DD. This is completely and totally about her SHABBY BOUNDARIES. And unless she is committed to changing that, then this is YOUR FUTURE.

Can you live like this for the rest of your life?

I remember you and I seem to remember I made you really mad. I can't remember why, though.

I would hand her a PLAN and tell her you are willing to stay in the marriage ONLY if she follows a plan of recovery that looks something like this:

excerpt from Requirements for Recovery:

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

entire article

The first step would have to be the truth, of course. This is a load of crap that she told you. I suspect there are many more affairs in the woodpile, so if you decide to stay in this nightmare, I would start with a polygraph and a full airing of the truth. I would bet $100 there are lots of affairs.

I think you're right melody, based upon her job. She seems to basically be a single woman living with a family. There is nothing cementing her to them. Dalton does the chores takes care of the kids and she works late nights where there is always action. How many meetings has she had after closing time. It is probably someone she works with or a boss. It just seems like he back to square one with no hope left that she can change her ways. Like I said she is really just a single woman, who lives with a family.

DaltonDad, here is your thread from the last affair{?} back in 2004. She was willing to do NOTHING back then to recover and wouldn't even leave the job where she still saw the OM. here

You have trained her to abuse you. She doesn't believe you will ever divorce her, because she knows you have no boundaries.

You can see how this has turned out. If you have no plan of recovery, this will be your future. I told you this in 2004 and I am telling you again 2009, if nothing changes THIS IS YOUR FUTURE.

And I will tell you also that it probably won't be pretty. People have nervous breakdowns and suffer years of post traumatic stress disorder from living like this. And you have been living like FOREVER. I have no doubt that you have been living with a sick, queasy feeling FOR YEARS, haven't you? How many years have you been beating down your instincts that were screaming SOMETHING IS WRONG! SOMETHING IS WRONG!

Can you continue to live like this for 10 more years?

Here is what Dr. Harley told a woman over on the weekend forum who was in a very similar marriage with a serial cheater:

"Your husband appears to be in what I call the "fog." He is not willing to do anything to end his affair, and he is not willing to do anything to restore his marriage with you. He is emotionally divorced from you.

I would encourage you to begin planning now for Plan B. It may take six months or more before you can separate from him, but my best guess is that his affair is nowhere close to ending. I would encourage you to confront him with what you've learned, and tell others in your family, including your children, what you are going through. But it won't motivate him to end his affair. All it's likely to do is make him angry. Nonetheless, I always recommend getting an affair out into the open as a first step toward ending it.

It's possible that your husband has had multiple affairs throughout your marriage, and he starts them over the internet, or with women he meets in his business. Apparently, he feels that there is nothing you can do to stop him, and he doesn't seem to worry about you divorcing him. I usually recommend Plan A as a initial response to learning about an affair, but in your case, Plan A is unlikely to work, and will probably cause you to experience severe emotional trauma."

Her last affair was also with a guy she met at work. She never left the job either. here

Seabird has a line that was very apt for this situation:

"If you can't have a good marriage, at least have a good divorce".

So for the sake of your kids, I would advise you trying for the later.

OMG, You don't know what it is like to have a minutes peace. Please for your own sake. Dump her. You are only given so long on this earth. You deserve to be in love with someone that respects you (which she definitely does not). Save yourself and your kids. Let her live the life of a skanky tramp she desires. You have to much to offer the right woman.

Ditto

Hi Melody,

sorry, for my anger from before. I'm guessing you made me angry because you were speaking the truth. isn't that always the way?

That and the depression I was in drove me out of my tree. I admit I nearly lost it so many times.

WW finally changed jobs. different work place.

I agree that it's her shabby boundaries.

No I can't and won't live like this. Hence, I'm not sure about continuing.

Yet, you say give her a chance to change. Many moons ago, I read about how adults can't really change. That's why so many people on drugs, booze, violence, and self abuse can never break the "habit". Not without a life changing truma.

Thanks for digging that stuff up Melody! Sorta like a video in my mind of the past!
(I'm laughing at myself now)
I was in a bad place then.

This isn't JUST about allowing ongoing contact with a lover.

I looked at your old threads DD and it seemed you were reluctant to talk to your W about her A or other sensitive issues because you were afraid she might get angry. You said she'd win an argument with anyone on these boards, "didn't fight fair", and quiet acceptance might be your lot. A poster even replied this was because women were better than men at arguing - I hope you didn't believe that.

Did I get that right? Has it changed in the last 5 years?

Could I put it to you that your W learned she could do pretty well whatever she pleased in your M and if you didn't like it all she had to do was get angry?

DD - why would she respect someone like that?

I didn't notice any advice for you first time round about dealing with your W's LBs.

I can tell you first hand that living in fear like that is not good for one's mental health. Repeated DJs and AOs from someone you love makes you feel pretty bad about yourself and can send your mind into dark unfamiliar places.

Conversely, REJECTING your spouse's LBs will improve both their and your opinion of you. Certainly helped me. Show her you value you - that you won't be abused - and there's a chance she'll value you too.

If not for your present M, then for your happiness in future relationships, I suggest you read up on boundaries. Learn what to do when your spouse is angry or disrespectful towards you.

How to declare your boundary, and enforce it, *without* being angry or disrespectful yourself. Basically walk away - calmly - at the first AO or DJ, and return to the issue later.

Read Harley's guidelines for negotiation.

You could also get "The Verbally Abusive Man" by Patricia Evans. It's a good catalogue of abuse and helps with recognising and dealing with it. Women use all the techniques she describes too, believe me.

If nothing else, maybe you can learn something from this M.

Thanks for all the comments....

Got WW to open up a bit more about the A last night and this morning.

Seems I know more about her motivation(s) than she does.

I said to her that I assume she and he ( guest that the bar) chatted and flirted over a period of a few weeks or months. She admitted months.
She gave some details.

Claimed the whole thing was a mistake and she screwed up.

She's still a bit of a mess from being in the midst of a chemical abortion, and depsite all my pain, I'm trying to hold her hand through that. Because I do care.

claims it's been over since the ONS, she knew she messed up then.

Getting pregnent is karma I suppose.

as for moving forward, she say's she want's to fix this.

I told her several times I didn't trust her. Don't know if I ever could again.
That I wasn't willing to stay married for the sake of the kids. That it's all on her.

Dalton, they had flirted for months. So then she lied about it being a ONS. Why are you letting her get away with calling it a ONS? That was an affair not a ONS. Did they have contact outside. Was she drunk? Not if she was working while they were flirting. She has no respect for you at all. She needs you now, because she knows that her live in babysitter is at risk. She is a serial cheater and when you get over this, she will be at it again. If you stay with her, I guess we'll be seeing you in another 4 years. Don't do this to yourself and your kids.

I don't believe she'll change either. I would go forward with a divorce, but at the same time tell her here is what it will take to stop this divorce. Have the plan in your hand and give her a CHANCE to demonstrate meaningful change. If she can do it over a few months, then you can stop the divorce. THAT is what I mean about giving her a chance.

"I am getting a divorce because I will not stay in a marriage under these conditions. You are a serial cheater and your cheating is extremely painful to me. However, if you can demonstrate meaningful changes that would result in a recovered marriage, I will consider stopping the divorce."

I would just stick to those talking points and not even negotiate or debate with her. I remember she used to debate and badger you into submission. If she tries that, then just say "this is not up for negotiation. I won't negotiate or debate with my life." Then walk away.

She needs to know and believe you are dead serious. In fact, I would suggest you just file for divorce, on grounds of adultery, on Monday, and THEN tell her Monday night. She will know you are serious versus just telling her you are "going to" file. Then she will think she has a chance to stop you and will try.

And your kids have to be told what she did, DD. If you don't tell them, SHE WILL. And I promise you it will be a story filled with lies, starring you as the demon. Not telling them leaves them vulnerable to her immoral teachings. She may even have already introduced them to her boyfriends. Kids can deal with truth, they can't deal with lies.

p.s. and yes, people can change, but they have to WANT TO CHANGE. You can't change her. She can only do that herself.

I differ with you on this melody. Because it is a serial cheating issue and not an affair. He would really have to wait for years again. It's just that even if she kept her nose clean, he couldn't ever stop snooping. She has screwed him over too many times. This is not a stage she is going through. This is her personality. She cheats and doesn't care how much pain her husband is in. She won't quit her job (at least she wouldn't last time). She is just not worth the risk.

Her hand should not be held. This is very inappropriate. AND DISHONEST. She has done a horrendous, despicable thing. Rewarding her for that is not appropriate. Please don't give sympathy to the devil. I am sick to my stomach just thinking about it.


Ok, what is her plan? Here is what it will take to recover a marriage with a serial cheater and I guarantee ya she will not do this. But her ability to lead a secret second life is what has led to her affairs and that has to be eliminated entirely:

1. take a polygraph to get out past affairs - confess everything

2. no leisure time without you - everytime she goes out it is with you OR NOT AT ALL

3. no more drinking since it seems to lead to situations like this

4. she gives you full access to her cell phone, office voicemail, computer, bank accounts, complete transparency

5. no opposite sex friends

6. no skanks or stupid trashy women for female friends

7. she attends a Marriage Builders weekend with you and learns to start acting like a wife and LEARN TO MEET YOUR NEEDS.

8. CHANGES HER OCCUPATION to one that is not vulnerable to affairs

The above things are what it will take to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage. If she will do those things, you have a chance. And this is not about you telling her what to do, but all about her WILLINGNESS to do what it takes to recover the marriage. If she won't do that, then this is hopeless.

If not, then you need to move on forward. BUT, most importantly, DD, I would file the divorce and then let her PROVE herself. If she doesn't, then you have lost nothing and can get out. You have nothing to lose. But you do have alot to lose if you stay in this marriage under these conditions. ALOT.

Just AGREEING to those things will not be enough because TALK IS CHEAP. You need a DEMONSTRATION. A promise from a liar is meaningless. Get the divorce filed and tell her your plan. And tell her it will "take alot to make me change my mind."

"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."

oh no, I am not suggesting he wait for anything. I am suggesting he file for divorce. And if she DEMONSTRATES a dramatic change, he will consider reconciliation. That might happen before or after the divorce. But I don't believe she will change. I believe she thinks she can do anything to him.

Thank you Melody. As an aside. your post count makes up 0.15% of all the posts here. That would make you an MB-God right?
And messing with gods gets you a lightning bolt to the backside.

Also, I was banned from here. I got to such a low point then, there wasn't much that wouldn't trigger me. A happy couple in a passing car would make me upset.

day alone (90% of them are) with the kids.
Doing laundry. Stewing and feeling myself slipping into anger and rage today.
Trying to put a handle on that. Oddly I don't really have anger management issues. This stuff just brings out the worst in me.

My question...for today. As i'm going to try and follow your instructions.

Should I kick her out? Tell her to, or ask her to leave tonight. Yeah, she's at work today. Or give her a few days?

I'll look into filing for divorce tomorrow.

Thanks
DD

One condition for WW is that she can not work in a bar where she has to be in a position to flirt for tips. You and WW may call it acting pleasant. New profession is in order.

DD
Sorry for all that you are going through. I'm with Melody on this one. There's just no excuse for your W's ONS and especially after your previous experiences. Honestly it doesn't seem like she'll do any of the things Mel listed. As far as kicking her out - you have to consider what you throw at your kids. I'm sure they already sense what's going on and to many drastic changes at once may be hard for them to absord. You might want to slow down and take one step at a time - filing for D first.

GG

DD, check with the attorney first and then come back here and we can brainstorm. I would file first and then talk to her about seperating.

An attorney will try to faciliatate an amicable divorce, but remember he works for YOU. I would tell him you want to file on grounds of adultery, keep the house, have primary custody with no CS payments. Try and get the best deal possible so you and the kids won't lose your home and be financially harmed.

Agree that you have to protect yourself and your kids now. You have done what you could to protect your marriage/family for a long time, yet she has proved she will not join you in those endeavors.

I'm so sorry you are facing this, but without resolute ACTION from YOU, it will be more of the same, ad nauseum. You have nothing to lose that you haven't lost already.

Go for it, and may God be with you. ((((Dalton Dad))))

Right Here Waiting

I realise divorce arrangements take priority over boundary patrol just now, but have to say I don't agree with this:


Sounds like you didn't have many AOs at your W/STBXW. Good for you. But...

1) I don't think you managed HER anger at all well. She used it to rule your M.

2) You didn't do anything positive with YOUR anger. Venting here to the point of being banned isn't positive.

3) Poor Justuss worked overtime censoring your and others' posts last time. I've never seen so much censoring. Your thread attracted anger. Why?

That energy, from your anger, should have gone into identifying and calmly and respectfully enforcing your boundaries with your W ("I will not be shouted at or spoken to with disrespect. I will not remain in a marriage where my W's intimate needs are met by another man. I will not tolerate contact between my W and OM.")

At least those are boundaries I'd have had.

Boundary failure (IMO) could be the reason your marriage failed, if it does fail, and judging by your glib reply ("Thanks for the replies everyone!"), it seems to me you either don't get this or don't agree with it.

If you don't deal with this I predict you'll be back here in another five years, back of hand on forehead, saying much the same things.

She trampled all over you. Nasty.

You let her. What would you call that?

FWIW I think you're doing the right things now, and I agree with what Mel is saying. Good luck.

Mels right Dalton. You need to start writing down your daily schedule, from the time you wake until the time you go to sleep. You need to be able to show the courts that you are the primary care giver. You need to point out how stable you are. Do not alert your wife to anything until you have all your ducks in a row. YOU HAVE TO THINK BEFORE YOU ACT.

If I may make a suggestion read PSUBIKER's thread from beginning to end. You need to be smart like him. You need to be two steps ahead of her at all times. She could do some dastardly stuff to you. YOU NEED TO START RECORDING YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH HER. Use a voice activated recorder. Put 1 in your kitchen, 1 in your bedroom, and carry another one on you. Two reasons. You need a record of what is said for your protection. The second is. You need to record your conversations so that you will keep your own tongue in check. If you read PSUBIKER you will see why you need to do this. His skanky wife called the cops on him and lied so that he was thrown off of his own property so her POSOM lover could move in. When she knows that you are divorcing her the gloves will come off. You want the kids, the house, and child support from her.

Day not going as planned. Planned on contacting an attorney.

Sent wife a text. Telling her I wanted all the details of her affair. Or she would be moving out.

She's started to give me details. In my mind there's more.
We went round and round on the phone (an 1 1/2 hours). She's not given much more than what she already said.


So I guess tonight will be a bad one. I'll have to ask her to leave without getting the kids in the middle of a war.

DaltonDad,

Don't I remember you from before? I think we posted to one another at an earlier time, am I right?

I think you are not listening to Mel and you really should be. She is giving you great advice although advice that will not be much fun to execute. You don't argue with your W. You don't interrogate her. You simply go file for divorce and tell her until something changes to convince you that she could be honest with herself and with you, and shows that she actually is ready to be a mother and a W, you want out.

She has failed on all levels and you still want to debate her about her behavior. She has been a lousy human being, a lousy mother, and a worse W. Until she recognizes this and decides to change, you are exposing your children to the worst possible role model and you are wasting your time discussing anything with her.

Please listen to Mel.

God Bless,

JL

Bingo! thank you for saying it better than I could have, JL!

DD, you are giving her power again. She is not in power. The plan in play is YOUR PLAN. The drunk has to get off the boat, not drive it.

PLAN DD [for DaltonsDad] is to file for divorce and make plans to move on. It is not to argue with an abusive drunk. It will TAKE A LOT to get you to change your course of action. And EMPTY TALK WILL NOT SUFFICE.

File for D, then hand her what looks like a plan of recovery and tell her that if you see a demonstrated PLAN OF ACTION on her part over a long period of time, you may consider reconcilation. BUT IT IS ALL IN HER COURT. You don't nag, beg, plead. You are MOVING ON. The train only stops for her if and when she DEMONSTRATES VIA ACTIONS a dramatic personal change.

GO FILE, DD!

Doing what Mel suggests may take cajones that Dalton's Dad just doesn't have. Honestly, this situation should be a no-brainer even for those BSes who cling to hope long past the point that there is any reason to hope.

DD, I think you need to ask yourself why you are willing to accept so little from your WW. Doing what you did today, by texting your wife, is just a subconscious (or maybe conscious) delay tactic so you can put off the hard decisions. It is literally the definition of insanity to expect that she will respond to you differently than she has on any of the previous occasions. Where is your self-respect that you would let this woman run roughshod all over you for this long?

Please, do as Mel suggests. File for divorce immediately to give yourself a chance to find a real woman. Get yourself into some therapy and come up with a list of requirements for any woman you have a relationship and set the bar so high for WW that she'd have to become an Olympian to get over it. You are wasting your time and energy on this woman at this point.

Mels right. Don't even discuss it with her. Get up tomorrow and go see a lawyer.

Asked WW to leave monday night. She did. Spoken to her twice since then. Haven't had much to say.
Going through rotten depression (again). Same pain. same feelings and emotions.
Hard to keep putting on the clown face for the kids.

Want to do as Mel suggested and give her conditions.
Just don't want to bother.

Sat down a read a lot the past few days. Doesn't do much good. A one sided recovery leds to a one sided marriage.

DD,

Ok, let me lay out for you what I think of your situation and then what steps you might take to address it.

1. Get more sleep. Your schedule with the kids and all is a back breaker. You have essentially been a single parent for a long time and it is wearing you down. Take some vacation time and take the kids somewhere you enjoy, or better yet see if your family can take them for a day and go do something...anything.

2. You need to tell her parents about this affair, the abortion, her past affair and why you want her out. Why? They will be your children's grandparents for their lifetime. They need to know the truth so that they properly treat your children and that means NOT making you the bad guy in this. You need to call them, tell them you have separated, probably will divorce, but would love to have them in your children's life. They then need to know the reasons for the divorce and why YOU need help.

3. Get with a good lawyer and go for custody. It will wake your WW up, but it is only right as you are the major caregiver in this family.

4. Go to a Doc and get anti-D's. Her affair will/has depressed you, but you have children and a divorce to fight and you need to be at the top of your game for this. Get HELP!!!!

5. Please realize that what you are dealing with is a failure on the part of your W. I won't go into the abortion issue, but that clearly is huge and I would bet will become larger for your W as years go by. Secondly, she flirted for months with this guy and this was no accident even if she "accidently" fell on his organ ONCE!

6. You need to remember and know that you are a good guy carrying a heavy load, and you have done it well. You did not fail this marriage...she did multiple times.

I have more to say, but get to a lawyer and a doctor get yourself at "the top of your game". The folks here are clearly cheering for you.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL.

Can't guarantee how much of your advice I can follow. But I will try.
More sleep...I'll work on that one.
I can't do the exposure thing. I know...been through this discussion before. TO me it's about humiliation and revenge. I understand that it's about showing the light of day to lies and secrets.

In good time I'll see a lawyer. I've not filled for divorce yet. I want to be in a less emotional place before I do that.

Not going to mess with the anti-d's, again They really bothered me last time.

I know and understand, despite the blame that has already flown my way this isn't my fault. I don't blame myself.

What I'm trying to do is keep life normal-ish for my kids. Not slough them off someplace. Normal dinners, normal nights, normal fun. Keep them from any of the hurt.
Sadly no matter what my actions, I will be the bad guy.

And for me, just keep busy. Amazing the house work you get done after an event like this! That and keep my eyes off the bottle of vodka in the freezer LOL.

DD,

The exposure to your in-laws is about your children. Your in-laws need to know the truth so that they can speak the truth. Further, your children will not be subjected you diatribes by in-laws about you, if they know the truth. You see no matter what you do, even if you get full custody which should happen, they will be those kids relatives and they should be informed relatives.

You also need to be talking to your children in age appropriate manner so that they are prepared for what is coming into their lives. It really is already in their lives but they will need perhaps counseling but surely time to adjust to the changes. I would strongly encourage you to seek a counselor out and discuss how to explain things to your children that doesn't make your W the enemy but lets them know what she has done is very very bad behavior.

DD, this isn't about you any longer, it really is not. It is now simply about your children and I believe forewarned is forearmed. They need information, but only information they can handle. They will handle the sadness, but they will have a harder time handling the lies, and you pretending all is great is a LIE!!!

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

can I vent?

I never feel I can do the right thing here. My own way of handling things may not be right. But I always feel no matter what I do it's always wrong.

My gut tells me one thing, ya'll another.

That on top of all this other stuff.

I could just swear a lot and get myself banned again (actually I thought I was banned this whole week).
But being I don't have a support network like many other people. I'm stuck.
I'm estranged from my family because of last time and exposing WW to my family. They refused to talk to me because I tried to stick it out and make the marriage work.
The nature of my life is such I've never had many friends. And those have drifted away.
What I have is my family. And as it seems I hardly have that.

I really did fight last time to save things. May not have been scripted as Mel, JL, et al wanted but it was what I could manage.
Maybe I'm too wishy-washy. Don't seem like I want to stand up for myself. Odds are you couldn't pick me out of a crowd.

I'm feeling pretty alone. One of things that sucks most about this whole thing. I hate being alone.
I for one crave the attention WW went elsewhere to get, and have been for a very long time.
I hate to be selfish. I always take care of me last. And now I'm left with nothing.
Don't admonish me for leaving my kids out of that. They are the only light in my life now. And yes when I feel right about it, I'll talk to them. Not LIE to them. But I can't do that now. My own pain it too great to lay any of this on them just yet.

Done venting....

((((((DaltonDad))))))

You are not alone.

i was like that for awhile DD

i recommend reading a book called "no more mr nice guy"

there is life after divorce

sitting on the fence wishing things will get better won't get you there though... the word boundaries is very important for you right now... don't cave in every time she bats her eyes. file for divorce, get custody, do some healing, figure out why this happened to you, figure out what kind of woman you want and the rest will fall in place

it's a long [censored] road... especially the first year or two. but trust me there is light at the end of the tunnel

Dalton Dad... I don't know if you remember or not, but I was one that posted to you before this second round. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. The issues you are facing today are twofold...problems your wife is creating, and problems you are creating for yourself.

On the problems your W is creating there is little you can do. You cannot dictate her behaviors or chain her to your house. You have tried to influence her through Plan A (to an extent) and tried to pursue a recovered marriage. It is obvious there's still an elephant in the living room.

The problems you are creating for yourself are in large part due to your inability to take action. The emotional impact of your W cheating again and not investing in your marriage have left you unable to act, or even react. This is your biggest hurdle.

Taking action will empower you. All of us BS know the depths of angst you are enduring. Betrayal saps the life out of you. You become depressed, sleep deprived and your self esteem bottoms out. There comes a time when you must come to terms with the fact that life is dealing you a sh!tstorm and the only way out is to begin to take positive steps to dig out. One day at a time.

Right now you are wallowing in your own pity. But even though you don't have anyone in your life to lean on, you do have a circle of people offering you some very good advice. I liken your situation to one complaining of drowning in a pool when surrounded by a number of people with life jackets. People are offering help and you are frozen and unable to act.

What would you do if you weren't afraid? What are you afraid of? What do you expect to change if you do nothing?

You have been offered some excellent advice. Top notch. Now it's up to you. What do you want?

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I'd stick with Melody's advice, file for divorce, inform your WW what it would take for you to stop the proceedings and work on your marriage.

Otherwise, man, get on with your life! Life is too short to spend your days with your guts in a knot. If your WW is not able to get on board with any attempt to save your marriage, let her go. It will be her loss. Even if she does return, you have no assurance this won't repeat itself again. Do you really want to spend the next 2 1/2-5 years trying to recover a marriage this badly damaged?

It's time for you to picture what the gold "prize" looks like in your future and begin taking the necessary ACTIONS to focus on achieving that goal.

Please understand that my intent is not to "pick on" you, but rather to prompt you to making decisions to better your situation. Grab some of the lifejackets offered to you and pull yourself to a safer place!

Best wishes,
SD

Hi DD,

You booted her, even though it kills you. I would not call you wishy washy. To love someone in spite their betrayals, well that's called being Christ like. But you got through it. sometimes all you have is doing whats right, even if you are falling apart inside. If they seem a little tough on you, it is only because they sympathize with you. Look at it like your family. I am sure they didn't want to hurt you, but their sense of justice outweighed their compassion. It happens here to.

Look at me. They purged every post I had on cohosalmons thread. Because after weeks and weeks of reading what ZEN WOLF was going through, I flamed her. I was wrong, and am still not optimistic by her seeming lack of contrition and her dispassionate posts. I actually thought they booted me from the site. Nope just my posts on her thread.

May I suggest something. Your estranged family, call them, you may get an I told you so. And you might even deserve it. But I think that they will reach out to you. Having us here on this board is nice and it is comforting to have people who can sympathize with you. But sometimes you need somebody with skin on to hug.

I can totally identify with you. You have poured your life into your family as I have into mine. Literally to the exclusion of other relationships. You have not been able to cultivate them because you have been raising them by yourself. I was luckier then you. my wife is wonderful. She may not think that I walk on water but she certainly thinks I float on top of it. You need to get the meds from the doctor if you haven't. I don't think its good for your kids, you bottling up your emotions while they're around. the meds will take the edge off and help you sleep.

You will make it through this. Right now its putting one foot in front of the other, and just making it through the day.

I will reiterate what I said about documentation. In court the one with the most documentation wins. When they get her on the stand and ask her, when was the last time your sons went to the doctor? When was the last time you helped them with their homework? What is their favorite bedtime story?
These are the questions that will shine a light on the real parent. You will get custody. But you want CS as well. YOU HAVE TO TAKE SOME TIME FOR YOURSELF. START EXERCISING. GO FOR WALKS. IF YOU DO NOT GET ACTIVE. YOUR BOYS WILL SUFFER. BIKE RIDES. JOIN A GYM. LEARN TO HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE OF YOUR FAMILY, IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER FATHER. A HAPPIER ONE. TALK TO YOUR WIFE ABOUT KIDS AND FINANCES ONLY. WE'RE ALL BEHIND YOU.

DD,

Decades ago, when I was in college and playing football I had a coach really yelling at me because I did not react fast enough to a play. I mean he was chewing my a$$ big time. Finally, in great frustration he yelled at me

I have remembered that quote for the rest of my life. Why? Well, my father used to yell at me when I played football and basketball in HS that I was not aggressive enough. He really got on me after one game we won by 30. I had made 12 solo tackles, 4 sacks, blocked a punt, etc. and he is yelling at me because I was not "aggressive" enough.

Years later I figured out what he was saying or trying to say and what my college coach was trying to say. It was not that I was not physical enough, it was that I was not mentally aggressive enough. When I had that big night in HS, I easily overmatched the guys across the line from me. I went where I wanted and did what I wanted, but I was not antcipating what would happen because I did not have to.

While in college I had the opportunity to tour a parapsychology lab at Duke University. It was facinating. They had devised all sorts of experiments to see if they could quantify the paranormal. And in fact that found that some people could accomplish some of these experiments although not consistently, hence it was not a science. No repeatability. They even devised an experiment actually two experiments to test what was call telekinesis, mind controlling matter. One had to do with tumbling dice and actually there was some evidence of possible control. The other was a straw lying across two knife edges inside of a large bell jar. They had never found a soul that could move that straw. Their conclusion, to the extent that the mind had any control over things, there already needed to be energy present (actually motion). That observation has over 40 years coupled with the statements I made before dominated my life.

It has dominated it as a scientist, as a husband, as a father, as volunteer, as committee member, as chairs of committees. And most definitely as a leader.

If you don't bring energy to something, you can change nothing. I learned how to bring energy to my marriage on this site. I have found that when I run things my main job is to bring energy, and yes "doing something wrong right" is better than doing nothing. Why? Because as one does something wrong, the situation begins to change and as it changes you now have another chance to get it right.

So why am I laying all of this on you? It is not because you are bad, pathetic, weak, spineless. Nope, it is because you have shown great strength in the past and even now. It is because you, whether you see it or not, can change your life, that of your children and perhaps even save your marriage, BUT... it is going to take you providing the energy. I fully understand you don't have the energy to fight YET AGAIN for this marriage. Therefore the only way to provide energy is to start to leave it. It is the right thing to do or the wrong thing? At this point it makes little difference, it is the ONLY THING YOU CAN DO.

Do you call your folks and get a "I told you so"? Yes I think you do. Because that call puts energy into the relationship you and your family have allowed to go dormant. Where there is energy there is change and young man, your situation needs to change on many many levels.

DD, don't fear change, fear staying where you are. You children are going to change, you situation won't unless you provide the energy.

I know you are tired and disheartened. I know you wish that somehow all of the future uncertainty and perhaps pain could be avoided, but it is coming your way whether or not you do something, but if you put energy into the situation, you have a chance to have things work out better.

You see DD, you may not have friends, but you do have folks that care. We do care and we want to see you and your family prosper. But, you MUST provide the energy, even if you feel you have none.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
As always, a truely excellent post. My situation improves every day and I still always learn something from your words. I hope DD is able to take this to heart and find just a little more strength to keep going and inject that energy into his family.

DD, I promise if you go to your parents/family and tell them what's happened, tell them they were right but you just couldn't bear to lose her, but now know you have to, for the kids' sakes, and ASK them to help you get through it, they will help you. It is always harder in your mind than in real life. I guarantee, they are just waiting for you to come to them and ask for help.

DaltonDad,

The idea that people cheat because they are not getting their emotional needs met is a lie. The cheat because they are dishonest and selfish people. Their needs come before yours. They don't care if they crush your spirit. They don't care if they destroy the lives of their children. It's all about them and their needs.

You made the same mistake I made when I found my wife (fiance at the time) in an emotional affair before we got married. I forgave her. That was a mistake. Fast forward to 3 years into our marriage and I caught her doing it again. What did I do? You guessed it, I forgave her. I mean she cried tears and seemed so sorry so she must really be sorry right? Wrong and it doesnt matter. Her actions reflect her character--selfish and dishonest--and character doesn't easily change. A leopard cannot change his spots.

So, after I caught my wife going out to night clubs and DATING someone else I had finally had enough and gave her the boot.

If you had given your wife the boot the first time you would be better off today. I'm also tempted to take my wife back. It's just so much easier to take her back and try to pretend it never happened. But investing more time and energy in someone who has proven themselves to be dishonest and selfish is a waste of your life. And think about it? She didn't even have the common decency to use protection! I'm sorry to say this, but that's pretty trashy behavior. It's really disgusting. It would be madness to stay.

Things may seem bleak now but in every tragedy there is opportunity. And for you there is an opportunity to find someone who will love you with the same sincerity and selflessness that you love. Imagine what it will feel like to have that?

You were a good husband and father. You can walk away feeling good about what you did in this marriage. And some beautiful children came of it. It was not all for nothing. But now it's time to move on and find real love.

Someone told me long ago about my marriage, "You stay in this marriage because you don't know what it's like to be truly loved by a woman." And he was right.

Just think about this as an opportunity to finally have a true life partner.

Before I start...thank you all. And I apologize for my whine yesterday.


WW called. Wants to make marriage work. Wants to be open and honest. Claims she's willing to do what it takes to make marriage work. I told her that her job is a big part ofthe problem.

She's willing to work on things. But can't quit her job.

I re-read Mel's conditons. I know her problem(s).

There are no open arms here. I'm a bigger doubter than anyone knows.

She said there's been NC with om since her physical encounter 45 days-ish ago.

I'm gun shy here. I know why she can't quit her job ($$).
I'm in a postion where I don't know if I should just bag it or allow her back home.

I have no issue with divorce. Nor following thru with one. I'm hurt, I ache. I'm not into the games I went through last time.

I guess I have to start with last time....and work forward. If she can do that, there may be a chance. If not....I'm back at ground zero.

Sorry DD,

If you are entertaining letting her come back, you are already back to zero. Nothing has changed since the FIRST time you caught her ( emphasis on FIRST because you have no idea whether she was cheating on you before that). She wouldn't quit her job then, she won't quit her job now. She tells you she is NC with the OM. Big deal, she slept with him got pregnant, aborted the poor child, and now tells you she wants to work on the marriage. You can lie to yourself about not divorcing for the sake of the kids. The fact is for all the time she spends there, and what she does around the house and for them, they would adjust easily to her being gone. She is never there any ways. You have to at least be truthful to yourself. At this point your self esteem is so low, that you think all you deserve is her. WRONG. You don't deserve her at all. You can't deny that you letting her off time and again only reinforces her bad behavior. She has no respect for you, and knows that if she just lies again and says she wants to work on the marriage and that she won't see the OM (and it is a lie. Because if its not him it will be another man) that you will take her back. If you had a friend in the same position as you, you would shake him and tell him to get real. That is what I am trying to do with this post.

The example you give to your children here is so destructive and if not changed increases there chance of searching our and finding a woman just like there mom. Boys marry women like their mothers. So instead of putting a stop to this now. You entertain reinforcing there education in accepting a life as a cuckold. DO YOU WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO HAVE SELF ESTEEM LIKE YOU? DO YOU WANT TO SENTENCE THEM TO THE LIFE YOU LIVE? Each time you give in. You tell them "Hey kids, this is how a marriage works. Your wife will cheat on you, you will be depressed and sorrowful your whole married life. Isn't this wonderful"

There is more at stake here then the pain you are feeling. There are your sons future happiness. Please reconsider even entertaining the thought of not divorcing her. I know this is harsh, and it hurts to read it. But DAMN man, you have only one life and your children have only one life. Don't do this to yourself or them.

DD,

Did you ever think that it's rather improbable that she got pregnant on a one night stand?

No protection on a one night stand? It just happened to be her fertile night? Most people spend months trying to get pregnant.

It sounds more likely that it was an ongoing thing that eventually progressed to unprotected and eventually led to pregnancy.

You do realize that there are really great women out there who would never do anything as disgusting as this?