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We've talked about it, but the OW said they're perfectly clean, and I told her the same. I know that doesn't mean a lot, but it is what it is.


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SS,

Let's start off with the following statement by you.
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I don't know, should I be posting in the Recovery forum already? I mean it's only been like 2 weeks since D-Day. We're both kindof in our fog. We're going through the motions of repairing our relationship, but it's still very hard to sleep, and the anger and hurt is still subsiding. I guess that will probably continue for quite awhile.

Just an FYI, I'm not totally clueless. I am not granting my W blind trust again by any means. She's being monitored very closely, and in complete secrecy, as much as it pains me to do it. I hope that some day I won't have to anymore. I've always been very trusting, and it just sucks that those days are over.

Anyway, off to work. More to follow.


Many people think that if they are vigilant, and the pain eventually subsides or even goes away that they are recovered. That is the point Harley makes time after time. This is not recovery, this at best a return to the marriage as it was before, which clearly did not go so well when temptation, smooth talking, and weak boundaries came into play.


This is the reason people are sort of on your case. They know that because the symptoms seem to go away, you have not necessarily cured the disease. No one is denigrating your W but they are looking at her actions and they match thousands of WS's that been posted about on this site.

You also said
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Along those lines though, I have to admit that my wife is drop-dead gorgeous, and I am going to find it hard to get close to other couples from now on due to the fear that another guy will try the same thing. Does anyone else have this problem? I've told her that she will ALWAYS be faced with temptation throughout our lives, and that if she wants to stay married she's going to need to deal with and learn how to control herself when that happens. She's one of those low-self-esteem hotties, as I would describe. I think working on her self-esteem and self-image might be really good for us to work on going forward.


In my humble opinion you could not be more off base. Her failure was not about self-esteem nor self-image. It is poor boundaries and no plan to protect them.

Let me offer you an example from my life. I am NOT drop dead gorgeous nor am I George Clooney. But, I was a batchelor until my 30's and enjoyed shall we say I had a very active batchelor life. I knew my way around bars, dancing, social events, sports events and certainly world travel. When I married, I took my vows very seriously. I also realized that I would be traveling a great deal, some years as much a 3 weeks a month.

I also knew what Harley says, will power is not enough. Put into enough situation at some point the temptation might be too much. So I made a plan. When I traveled, I never dined with a woman alone. Always in groups or not at all. I did not hang out in bars even in the hotels. I NEVER and I mean NEVER went anywhere where their was music and dancing. I would eat, go back to my room, and read/watch TV/work. I have done this successfully for well over 30 years. MY plan was to simply eliminate temptation by not being near it.

What is your W's plan? She is good looking, she has poor boundaries, and she has no plan as yet. I will also tell you that I did not have self-esteem issues or self-image problems but still KNEW that a plan to protect myself was required.

Your W promising, you monitoring, the pain passing, even her remorse are not enough. Self-examination, discussion of weaknesses, and a plan to address them is required. This is why Harley pushes his two policies: the policy of joint agreement, POJA, and the policy of radical honesty. Both are tools for negotiating a win-win situation.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted by StayingStrong32
We've talked about it, but the OW said they're perfectly clean, and I told her the same. I know that doesn't mean a lot, but it is what it is.

Whew. Well, that is a relief.

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Originally Posted by Just Learning
In my humble opinion you could not be more off base. Her failure was not about self-esteem nor self-image. It is poor boundaries and no plan to protect them.


Thank you for the advice, JL. I disagree slightly with this comment, because unfortunately self-esteem and self-image play a large roll in situations like this. Non-boundaries on our part do play a part, but I'm confident that I could have lunch with any one of her friends, or even one of my co-workers, and I would never EVER think about going behind my wife's back to see them again. Even if one of them showd an interest in me, my self-esteem doesn't require that to make me happy. I'm perfectly happy with myself. She isn't necessarily happy with herself.

I think that in your special circumstances of having to travel so much, it was definitely necessary for you to create some hard boundaries in order to maintian trust. In my situation, even though NOW I know we should've had them, there's never been any reason to EVER think that I would need them. I mean, we have dinner at the table every night, sleep in the same bed every night, call eachother throughout the day. I mean, you SHOULD be able to trust your wife to have lunch with a friend of yours when it's offered. You SHOULD be able to trust your friend to have lunch with your wife and not have it turn into anything else. But, I guess I've learned the hard way that you can't always trust your spouse to do that.

So, now I realize that boundaries are VERY important. Still waiting for her to come up with her own and lay them on the table so that it's more meaningful than coming from me.

BTW, since I'm still in the "Surviving" forum. . . . does anyone else have this problem? I'm sitting at work, doing my business, and then negativity starts to infiltrate my thoughts. I start thinking about the TIMELINE. Even though I've already done this 1000 times, I start to think about where I was on the days she was cheating on me, what my mood was, what her mood was, what we were doing that day, e-mails she sent, texts she sent, what signs I might've seen, whether we made love on that day or not. . . . . my heart starts to race, my head and hands get hot, I can barely see straight, and the pain starts to rush back as if it had just happened.

Does that happen to anyone? I hate it. I know those moments will start to go away, eventually.


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Oh yeah, also I wanted to ask this of everyone. . . . during the affair, we were having the best sex of our marriage! What's up with that? Was it guilt sex? Was she imagining him when we were doing it? Or was it that he was providing a service of filling her love bank during their talks that made her more in love with me??? I can't be the only one that experienced that.

The negative is, now whenever the sex starts to get really good in our marriage, I'll start to have suspicions. That SUCKS!


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SS32,

We've talked about it, but the OW said they're perfectly clean, and I told her the same. I know that doesn't mean a lot, but it is what it is.

OM is a proven LIAR, guys like that will run several women at a time, frequent bawdy houses, etc.

The country government usually has a free clinic, send her. The test for HPV is for females only, and HPV seems to cause genital cancer in men too. Your wife has forced you to assume all the risks of casual sex with none of the benefit, if OMW has STD so do you, but you never got to F her!

NJ

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Ask her to diarise her interaction with OM. Use it to framework later questions.

She can make a second account of her sexual activities if it is too harsh to look at right now.

Keep contact with OMW in case clarification is needed.


But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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Originally Posted by imagine
Ask her to diarise her interaction with OM. Use it to framework later questions.

She can make a second account of her sexual activities if it is too harsh to look at right now.

Keep contact with OMW in case clarification is needed.

personally, I would rather that she NOT diarise her accounts of what happened. We both are ready to move on and not talk about it anymore. It's to painful for the both of us to keep dwelling on the past.


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Staystrong,
There's one thing you don't know, but we that have recovered our marriage know - is that you you will be going through several phases. It took two years to R my M. The good people here helped me through my phases. You are just now starting to experience the phases - the SF, the questioning of the timeline. Don't be so quick to forgive your WW - she hasn't earned it yet. Below is a link to a letter from a wayward wife from Harley on what it takes to recover a marriage. I would give it to your WW.

Harley response to Wayward Wife on rules to recover marriage

You have to understand some of us have been here for years. Your situation is not unique or new. Many have come so quick to forgive their WS only to find out more information they didn't have earlier.

Below is another link to a article that should make sense to you on forgiving...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Gg


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We both are ready to move on and not talk about it anymore. It's to painful for the both of us to keep dwelling on the past.


SS32, if you do that, you will constantly be living with the elephant in the kitchen. Talking about these things is exactly what you must ultimately do. This "easy forgiveness" at this point so close to DDay will not serve your R well at all. Forgiveness comes at the culmination of recovery, not before. It is not a prerequicet(sp) to R. Keeping an open heart and doing the necessary steps to fall in love again is all that is required at this time. Forgiveness is the reward after years of hard work.

As far [censored] STD's are concerned, accept no one's word on this. Clinical testing is required. My Fww approached this topic with her OM and he swore up and down he was clean. Then I ended up with and HPV infection. My Fww now gets a pap smear every year with the notion of cervical cancer so prevalent.

I believe the two of you have the potential to recover your M, but do not side step the difficult steps in between. This is really hard work. Best wishes to the both of you.

All Blessings,
Jerry

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Originally Posted by shinethrough
SS32, if you do that, you will constantly be living with the elephant in the kitchen. Talking about these things is exactly what you must ultimately do. This "easy forgiveness" at this point so close to DDay will not serve your R well at all.


Jerry, I never said anything about forgiving her this quickly. I really like your second link in your post, where he talks about not forgiving until forgivenss has been well earned, which might take many years. There's a difference between forgiving, and dwelling on the huge mistake that she made by being unfaithful. We spent a week dwelling on it, we talked in depth about every detail of the affair, we mourned together, we recommitted ourselves to eachother, and at this point I see NO reason for reviewing the events of the last 2 months. Now, we're both in counseling, and hopefully she'll be able to discover why she did it, and learn how to prevent it in the future if it ever comes up, but the "elephant in the room" is not something we have any need or desire to talk about again. I'd just assume move on.

And, sometime down the road, when she has EARNED back my love, trust and respect, I will forgive her for what she did. It might take several years, but I hope I can do that someday.


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Hi SS...

I just finished reading your thread - this is my first post to you...I am a FWW, my husband, Mr. W [who also posts here] and I did recover our marriage using MB, so we know a bit about the path you have just begun...A couple things stood out to me...

The part about your setting her boundaries and then taking them back in particular...You do understand that YOU are still supposed to have boundaries, yes? Think of boundaries like fences - set up around you to protect you...So your boundary regarding contact between your wife and OM might look like this : If you continue contact with OM, then I will choose to ____________. [whatever you choose to put in the blank is your enforcement of said boundary] Make sense?

In our case when it was firmly established that NC was in place, Mr. W had one boundary that he stated with conviction to me, and that was, "I refuse to live in a loveless marriage"...I knew he was serious as a heart attack - from that point we dove head first into MB...MB gives you a PLAN for how to fall romantically in love with each other again - and STAY that way! Good stuff!

The very BEST tool that you could use to recover your marriage would be for the two of you to attend a Marriage Builders Weekend - there are links at the top of this page...Mr. W and I can't say enough good things about it...Doing so will give you both daily access to Dr. Harley himself on the private forums here, as well as an intense accountability program...for LIFE...The program is backed with a 100% money back guarantee...I hope the two of you will consider it...

Originally Posted by SS
Thank you for the advice, JL. I disagree slightly with this comment, because unfortunately self-esteem and self-image play a large roll in situations like this. Non-boundaries on our part do play a part, but I'm confident that I could have lunch with any one of her friends, or even one of my co-workers, and I would never EVER think about going behind my wife's back to see them again. Even if one of them showd an interest in me, my self-esteem doesn't require that to make me happy. I'm perfectly happy with myself. She isn't necessarily happy with herself.

Careful SS, this is dangerous thinking...For a couple of reasons, first it presumes you are immune to having an affair yourself - and THAT is a scary place to be - I would have said the same about myself - "No way would I EVER cheat!"...Those that believe they are immune are at the greatest risk...Dr. Harley is very clear that we are all wired for affairs and shows us how to protect against them...What you must understand is that in the above scenario you gave? The one regarding having lunch with a member of the opposite sex? THAT is the part that means your boundaries are out of whack! Married people do NOT do that...A boundary is NOT a matter of testing your ability to RESIST temptation, it is something you put into place to AVOID temptation! See? Will power is very unreliable...You'd be wise to listen and learn regarding that...

The other reason, is that your attitude of superiority about this will likely bleed through to your wife - I realize that you most certainly DO have the moral high ground right now, but I would advise you to be careful how you wield it...Mr. W's empathy towards me in understanding just how I'd gotten myself into the mess I put us both in helped our recovery so very much...

I noticed you said you were going to have your wife read here...Has she? If so, just the articles, or the forums as well? Any chance she will post?

Best,

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Wow, great advice Mrs. W. Concerning the boundaries for myself, I did state them to her. I promised I would never put myself in a position which might lead to temptation. I promised not to ever be with another W unless she was there, even if it was just for lunch or something. I promised "Radical Honesty". The one thing I didn't say was what I would do if she still kept in contact with the OM. Or what I would do if she did this again. I honestly don't know what I would do. I also kindof feel like if I told her that, and she did it, then she would try her hardest to hide it from me and would never tell me the truth. I guess it's a catch 22.

I understand that even I am capable of cheating if the situation was right. I would always hope that I would make the right decision, but I guess I don't ever want to find that out. I've set my boundaries with her, and I will stick to them.

I'm going to look into an MB seminar right now. Thanks for the great tips!


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Originally Posted by StayingStrong32
BTW, since I'm still in the "Surviving" forum. . . . does anyone else have this problem? I'm sitting at work, doing my business, and then negativity starts to infiltrate my thoughts. I start thinking about the TIMELINE. Even though I've already done this 1000 times, I start to think about where I was on the days she was cheating on me, what my mood was, what her mood was, what we were doing that day, e-mails she sent, texts she sent, what signs I might've seen, whether we made love on that day or not. . . . . my heart starts to race, my head and hands get hot, I can barely see straight, and the pain starts to rush back as if it had just happened.

Does that happen to anyone? I hate it. I know those moments will start to go away, eventually.

I had these same thoughts and they went through my head every couple hours it seemed like. I always asked my FWW for the dates and details but we could never get through it without me getting mad. This went on for about a week.

Then one day at work I got an email with a subject of "answers to your questions". She laid out the time line for me. It wasn't easy reading it but it helped me put together some of the days we had went through where things didn't make sense to me.

I used to look back and think I did something really nice for her on this day and she was a total B.... to me. I always wondered if that POS had contacted her that day. It really helped to piece it all together.

If you are having thoughts about all of this I would tell you to ask her to give you the dates of all of this. Doing this is not dwelling on the past but it's helping you heal from it.


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SS I understand completely what you are doing here and to me you seem a lot like I was 4 years ago when I discovered my wife in a affair.

When you first discover it, you think that your situation is unique and that all these people telling you otherwise are bitter or suspicious or otherwise around the twist in what they are telling you and you go into denial thinking your wife could never do that, could never be as calculating etc. You get the "story" in dribs and drabs and want to believe it's true. However, the advice to get a polygraph for your wife is sound. She may well start singing like a canary before the test - that is pretty much the rule.

What you have been told about boundaries is correct - you need to ask your wife what she intends to DO to make sure this will never happen again. And you have to decide on your own boundaries of what you are prepared to tolerate and accept in order to remain in the marriage.

The TRUTH is your wife wanted to bang some other guy and she wasn't a good wife or mother while she was/IS in that wayward frame of mind.

So what you are doing now is "makin a list and checkin it twice" and tiucking off the areas you think will lead to a recovery. But this site has some unique ways of dealing with adultery that are pretty counter intuitive. Here's a few facts for you:

1. ALL wayward spouses LIE
2. ALL waywards seek to minimise the extent and the truth.
3. OM'sW is a good ally for you right now and you should both be in contact to monitor your respective spouses and ensure NC is maintained.
4. There are good odds that either your wife or OM has done this before and NEITHER of them is as "clean" as their BS's are desperate to believe and you should get checked right NOW for every STD known to man.
5. Your wife should write a NC letter you approve of and send it to OM
6. Your wife must commit to just compensation for her affair.

In MB terms, just compensation is outlined perfectly in the FAQ's here about surviving an affair but take the following steps as a guide.

1. Spending 15 hours a week alone together for undivided attention meeting intimate EN's of Affection, Sexual Fullfillment, Recreational Companionship and Conversation.
2. You should both do the EN questionnaire and determine your top 5 emotional needs and then develop a p[lan for meeting tohose needs for each other.
3. Do the LB inventory and eradicate love busters

Your wife should never travel without you overnight again and you should be free to check up on her 24/7

There's a bunch more - read "Surviving an Affair" and "Fall in love, stay in love"

You are also on autopilot now - expect to get very angry about this. Expect your wife to be moody for a while and unhappy. It's a rollercoaster. At the moment you think it's plain sailing but I promise you there will be a [censored] of a road bump along shortly!

The advice to attend a MB weekend is great advice.


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Additionally, whilever your wife is thinking that you are putting restrictions on her rather than her doing whatever it takes to ensure she doesn't do this again (a shift from her wayward mindset currently exhibited) you are not in recovery.

Recovery is NOT the absense of an affair.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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BigK, great advice. I agree with most, and disagree with some. smile I'll take what I can, and leave the rest here. We are on a good road to recovery, and she is working her [censored] off to earn my trust and forgiveness. I'm terribly sad that all this has happened, but I'm extremely greatful that there is still much to salvage. The love is still strong, the willingness is still there, and we are both moving forward with strength and grace. I know that the lessons I've learned on this site will help us avoid this from happening in the future, and will help us to have a stronger marriage in the end.


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I'm going to put myself out there right now, which is going to leave myself open to a lot of criticism on this forum. But I feel like it's important in order to conveye the struggle I'm going through.

I've been married for only 5 years, and my wife now has had 2 affairs. That is not a good track record. I believe 1 strike is forgivable. 2 strikes is usually reason to leave. And 3 strikes, especially if it happens sometime in the next 5 years, is even to much for me to handle. As much as I love my wife, I recognize there is a terrible pattern here, and I'm still hopeful that this is a pattern which can be broken. If it happens a 3rd time, I will be sure that it can't be broken, and I'll need to move on. I still want to grow old have more kids with her, but I really need to let her know that I will not allow this anymore.

I know that many of you will say to leave her NOW, but I won't accept that. She's my best friend, we're on our way to a great recovery, she's reading all the MB material and building back my "love bank" which she stole from me (as I say). So this is not an option. But, it is a HUGE leap of faith that she will be faithful for me for the rest of our lives. It's a leap I'm willing to take.

I guess my question is, is it possible for someone with such a bad track record to change and be faithful forever? What is the best way of accomplishing that? She wants to change, and she will do whatever it takes.


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Originally Posted by StayingStrong32
I'm going to put myself out there right now, which is going to leave myself open to a lot of criticism on this forum. But I feel like it's important in order to conveye the struggle I'm going through.

I've been married for only 5 years, and my wife now has had 2 affairs. That is not a good track record. I believe 1 strike is forgivable. 2 strikes is usually reason to leave. And 3 strikes, especially if it happens sometime in the next 5 years, is even to much for me to handle. As much as I love my wife, I recognize there is a terrible pattern here, and I'm still hopeful that this is a pattern which can be broken. If it happens a 3rd time, I will be sure that it can't be broken, and I'll need to move on. I still want to grow old have more kids with her, but I really need to let her know that I will not allow this anymore.

I know that many of you will say to leave her NOW, but I won't accept that. She's my best friend, we're on our way to a great recovery, she's reading all the MB material and building back my "love bank" which she stole from me (as I say). So this is not an option. But, it is a HUGE leap of faith that she will be faithful for me for the rest of our lives. It's a leap I'm willing to take.

I guess my question is, is it possible for someone with such a bad track record to change and be faithful forever? What is the best way of accomplishing that? She wants to change, and she will do whatever it takes.

I'm in the group that believes that anything is possible if you really want it. If your W really wants to change and become a faithful W, and is willing to do the work, why not? I think there are issues either within her or your M that need to be addressed. Keep working to identify what those issues are, and eliminate them.


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SS32 if your wife does nt work on herself then it will happen again and again just like the wind blows up her skirt! You will always wonder when its going to happen. If you stay with her get used to sharing your wife with other men pounding her and get regular STD test. Married 5 yrs and 2 affairs and probally more! How long was you married when the first affair that you know about took place?

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