I am jealous. I have thrown everything into our M to meet all ten EN's but she misses OM fantasy.
Maybe because he just seemed to meet one EN better than me, Conv.
Or maybe becase she is so depressed sh wants out and will cling to the fantasy like a drug.

HHH - thank you for sharing what your W wrote. I teared up reading it because it hits so close to home. But I have to say, she is a stronger woman than I, and you know why? Because even though she trickled-truthed you, she was the one to woman up and tell you on her own. My H had to drag it out of me. And that hurt him even worse.

Stretch, I'm sorry your WW is still hanging on to the fantasy. You know, the POSOM in my sitch was able to meet my need for conversation, and that was his foot in the door. H and I hardly ever had conversations, and we definitely don't now, but he tried during the first 4 months of R. And I know that I was not honest with my H, but during the A, I wasn't honest with the OM either. So conversation was occurring, but even though the chats became intimate in nature, they were dishonest. I don't know why some WS's can't get out of the fog. I hope that your WW wakes up soon, stretch - and I really hope it for her sake...yours too, but see, I think you are gonna be OK, regardless. She may very well finally wake up a few years down the road and see that you have moved on, while she is dismayed at how her life could have gone so wrong, and realizing she has no one to blame but herself.

I was thinking today, there aren't so many FWW's posting around here who are in completely recovered M's...Mrs W and Mrs V, tawanda/luri...I wonder why that is?

**edited to add - And stretch, don't be jealous of my H being able to refill my LB$...yes, my H was able to make copious deposits very quickly in my LB$, but...I was going through a real spate of jealousy over some of the other recovering m's on here involving BH/WW's, to the point I could not read posts without breaking down in tears. I wished that I could have that kind of forgiveness that I saw, you know? And I wondered if maybe I didn't deserve it, that I'm worse than some other WW's...that this one "just" had an EA but I couldn't stop there, oh no, *I* had to go and play a cheap wh*re to some scuzzbucket...BUT some wiser heads set me straight on that. Every recovering marriage is a completely individual thing...I mean, we can all follow the same recipe for success (MB), but no two marriages, or H's, or W's, are the same.

Well, she was at least strong enough to tell me no;

...every time I asked to leave.

... every time I asked for a divorce.

She is strong enough to stick it out, even though my LB$ is low and hemorrhaging, and I've stated I'll give recovery another 2 years.

I'm no angel. No superhero. I'm just trying to give it my best shot - some days it looks good, some days not.

Let's toast to the good days...

Very good read WPG

WPG,

Wanted to give you a little note here.

She didn't come to me. Over the months between the original D-Day, I worked to wear her down. She mentions it.

I DRILLED her. I can remember a lot of it.

One day I told her that if she hadn't slept with him, that I knew she wanted to. I also told her that if she hadn't already, that if I would have left, she would have. I drilled her as to if she had made plans to arrange to sleep with him.

Denial, denial, denial.

The text she refers to as the one that "broke the dam," so to speak didn't just say that I wanted all of her.


It said that I wanted all of her, and that included honesty and faithfulness. Fidelity.

The only thing she gave me voluntarily was ILYBINILWY fogbabble, and it took her being drunk to do that.

Now, taking that all away, she is still an FWW that other FWW/WW's could look up to, because she flat-out refuses to shrink from me.

H did that too. I remember when I finally told him I'd slept with the POS. He was in my face as soon as I walked in the door, "Tell me. Tell me. TELL me." He said he had already talked to the POS and he'd told him everything. I went down on my knees on the floor in front of him. He told me later that he knew for sure that I'd slept with the POS when I did that. He drilled later on dates, places, asking me why I called at such-and-such time and talked for x # of minutes, what did we talk about, why did the cell phone bill say I was in one place while I claimed to be somewhere else. How could I remember something so clearly from my childhood and not know what the POS and I talked about on the phone on x date, since he obviously meant so much to me?

Ah, God...WS's are the scum of the earth. I know that who I was or what I did doesn't define who I am now, but that doesn't make life any easier. I hated who I was. I still struggle with an overall sense of failure and worthlessness, and I feel like I am worthless in my H's eyes. Part of why I started this thread is that it frustrates me to no end when I read the posts of the BH's on here fighting so hard for their M's while their WW's walk around in the throes of rectocrainial inversion, and I read the words of those BH's and I want to physically shake every last one of those women. Their husbands are fighting for them and they are too fogged to see it! They are going to end up exactly like me if they don't wake the h377 up and get out of the fog. I feel powerless...I couldn't save my own M and so I want to at least try to save someone else's.


And that is the core of it. That is what we promised our husbands, and we failed to keep our promise. Whatever else I can try to give him now, whatever else I have given him in the past, I've tainted all of it for breaking my vow to him.



I've always said I had a good feeling about your and your FWW. And I still do. I firmly believe you two will be a MB success story.

WPG,

Fwiw I certainly appreciate your help. And btw, my wife's fog is cracking and crumbling.

I know, been following your thread! Saw where she put her ring back on again - that is awesome! Stay strong!

It's been one year since I've posted anything on these boards, but after lurking on this thread, I thought I'd offer my perspective as a FWW. I had an A with a much younger co-worker, and, like WPG, it was mostly the conversation I craved. And the attention was nice as well. I despised my behavior and still do. When my H found out, I tried to break contact with the OM, but it was difficult because we continued to work together, and it was like an alcoholic working at a bar. I was addicted to the relationship and had difficulty breaking free. I sought help dealing with the situation on these boards, and I was extremely blessed to be offered a job with a different company about 6 months ago. That's when NC really began for me. OM texted me shortly after I started my new job, and H found out. H sent him a threatening email and I never heard from or contacted OM again.

For the past 5 months, H and I have been working on rebuilding our M. We have done amazingly well, and I feel like I'm getting my old life back. Unlike WPG, I suffered a lot of withdrawal at the beginning. Depression. Suicidal thoughts. But I leaned on God and He brought me through. I became active in my Church again and stronger in my faith.

So why am I lurking on these boards one year later? Because OM has contacted me again. A month ago, he sent me another text and I ignored it completely. But then he sent me another one about a month later. This time I was mad. He had the ability to throw me into a tailspin just by sending me a text every time he got drunk. Unfortunately, in my anger, I sent him an email from my work address telling him to not contact me again. I should have ignored it.

Long story short, we have exchanged a couple of emails. I admit, I was curious about him. But I don't want to go back to that dark place. It's amazing to me how someone can come so far and be thrown right back to square one in an instant. I have made it clear that I will not see him or resume our A. But, I know that in order to save the M, I will have to break off all contact.

For all you Former Waywards out there, listen to me. Don't look back. Ever. Just focus on going forward and never break no contact. Trust me--withdrawal, no matter how awful it is the first time--it's no better the second time around.

And for all of you who have walked in my shoes, I would appreciate your encouragement and words of wisdom yet again.

I dug up springchicken's old thread and replied there so as not to clutter this one.

I was reading Ace's Success Stories thread as I needed some positivity this morning, and this post speaks volumes:

Zoey's Story

needed that too, thanks Wpgirl.

Thanks WPG...I needed that as well ....

Hey WPG you posted this over in Teacher's thread:

- Anytime I try to educate H, lecture him, give unsolicited advice, make �You should/We should� statements, �Why don�t you� statements (e.g., �Why don�t you want to give this a try?�) or �Don�t you know� statements...that I need to realize that basically what I am saying to him is, �Hey, stupid!�

I find myself doing this and I know it is a way to control the other person. I did this repeatedly with my WH when I was trying to talk sense into him about his affair and not abandoning my four kids and I for her. What do you suggest as the alternative?

What I am finding most in my recovery is my inability to control the other party. Now that I am in Plan B, I can see how my WH and I used manipulation tactics in our marriage to get the other person to do what we wanted.

This clearly failed me miserably, and I recognize it as a horrible way to make a marriage last.

I can see how the POJA can solve this issue, but how does one who is still in Plan B waiting for WH to wake up work on themselves to fully eradicate that type of controlling behavior if POJA isn't available?

Something along the same line are boundaries. I know my boundaries with my WH are firm, and of course before Plan B he felt they were put in place to control him. How does one go about recognizing the difference between setting boundaries versus having those boundaries in order to receive a particular outcome? Isn't that ultimately control?

When does one POJA boundaries versus having those boundaries at EP's? I can see down the road in my recovery becoming so ridgid in my boundaries that I may end up scarying off my WH and/or any other potential mate if D actually happens.

Thanks!!

Great question! I'll tell you what Jennifer said to me during our sessions, IITL:

She advised me to begin my statements with something along the lines of "I'd love it if..." (a la POJA) or "I really need..." followed by some positive, specific behavior. For example:

"I�d love it if we could come up with something else to do this weekend."
"I�d love it if every Saturday we went through the budget together."

Part of this, JC advised, was not speaking in a harsh tone of voice, and using a term of endearment could help "soften" your request.

She also gave me a 6-point diagnostic to follow to help me determine why I was unhappy about something, and said it would help me to come up w/my "I'd love it if..." statements.

1. Care
2. Protection
3. Time
4. Honesty
5. POJA
6. Exclusive Need Meeting

In other words, was I unhappy because of a lack of UA time (#3) or because a decision was made w/o POJA (#5)?

OK - I had to get that down fast 'cause my notes from JC are on the cpu at work! I've got to go get the kiddos from school, but will add more later!

Hi WPG - My HNHN and Recovery thread was moved to SAA, so I moved the above questions to my HNHN & Recovery Thread if you want to add some more there or here. I wasn't sure where to post those questions. Do you mind if I copy your response over there also?

Thanks Tough!!!

OK - I'm back! I wanted to add that I really don't have much experience using this. During recovery, I was very tentative about asking for anything to meet my needs. Still am, really. For example, there's been a death in my extended family and I need to go to the visitation tonight and wanted to go to the funeral tomorrow. I didn't really want to take the kids. The kids are staying w/me this weekend since they had b-day parties to attend. Anyway, I planned to ask H last night if he minded helping with the girls, but I backed down. He'd been here at the house all day and did some carpentry work, is working nights this week and hadn't slept. He wasn't rude or anything, but I just felt like I shouldn't ask him for any more favors, since he'd been doing so much this week. So I wishy-washily talked about the weekend and juggling the girls, thinking that if he knew I was in a bind and was OK coming over and watching the girls, he'd say so. And I realize that what I did was wrong, wrong, wrong! If I needed his help I should just ask. I just feel guilty asking for anything and I'm so afraid to push my luck...but conversely, I know I am not being honest with him and if I don't tell him what I need and give him the opportunity to choose to meet that need or not, that I end up resenting it - and that was a problem in our pre-A M, that I expected him to know what my needs were.

In a nutshell, I'm great at knowing what MB tells me I need to do, not so great at putting it into practice! I'm still learning and know I have a long way to go yet.

And I see where you are coming from with the control issue. It took a long time for it to sink in for me that I cannot control my H's actions. I tried to manipulate recovery by lying, and then later I struggled with him not meeting expectations I had for his behavior. I wanted him to do Y when I did X...when in truth I cannot/should not/must not have expectations of his behavior at all. I cannot control him. Nothing I do or say or do not do/say is going to bring him home. Separation is his choice, and unlike in your sitch, IITL, my H is the BS and he has every right to leave me.

Boundaries - I don't believe boundaries can be POJA'ed. If I understand what you are saying, you're referring to the EPs that you would need your WH to put into place to help you feel safe.

Here

EP's are forever. They are what you, as a BW, need to feel safe, and what we, as WS's, need to put into place. They are not POJA'ed.

But if we suppose that your WH never pulls his head out of his [censored], and someday you are looking for another relationship - then I see these becoming boundary issues. You would not have EP's with a new, potential partner - yet you would still want to see them demonstrate appropriate boundaries with the opposite sex, because you will need to feel safe with them.

Dunno if any of that made sense. I keep meaning to read a book I've seen mentioned previously on this forum on boundaries by Cloud & Townsend. Maybe that book would also be helpful for you, IITL?

Oh sure - feel free! We were posting at the same time! (I'm a reeeeallly sloooooow poster!)

Hi WPG...I have followed your thread throughout and have been one of many who have been praying for your M. I am sorry that it is still difficult for you, but I still think there is hope that your H will come around...after all, you did!

I know it has been difficult for you as a FWW but I must say that many of us on these Boards (SAA) could only want a remorseful spouse that has humbled themselves to see their shortcomings and want to fully commit to restoring their M. For that, I applaud you and all of the other FWS for recognizing how important it is in keeping the family whole. Moreover, I'm happy to see that you want to help others, irrespective of your current situation.

I would like to ask you something but do not feel comfortable posting it on the forum. Would you be receptive if I sent you a private post through the mods or another avenue? I've read something on the forum where you can communicate like this, although it is an anomaly. I certainly understand why this is a concern and why the PM option has been disabled.

Thank you and the others for your insights in helping us understand our sitch and what we can do to save our marriages.

Looking at Zoey's story...
Thinking about EP's forever...

What I am finding so hard is that my WW isn't ALL-IN on the recovery. She still believes she wants out. While the WW fog cracks slowly, slowly... she continues to have pride, walk out when the going gets tough, try to make me the enemy, carry defensive justifications for her actions...

I guess, it just feels like she is sabotaging this M. Adamant to hold onto what she believed during the A... ie. that the M is destined to fail.

When you have a WS that doesn't want back in... all those recovery rules and EP's and NC just are hard for them to apply.

If you follow my thread you know that my WW is only half back in.... she's in limbo. I think she can't stand herself if she has to be totally wrong for the A and admit all that wrong. And release me as the blame object for her depression.

If we make a joint decision to say we are on Recovery... then I believe all those things need to be in place. (EP...etc) Otherwise, we'll just keep on Plan A until either Plan R or Plan B.