You're paying the PI to figure that out. It's his problem, not yours. And do you think this would be the first time a PI had to deal with someone working or living on private property?

And I'm sure that HE'S pleased that he was able to impose his on you.


Because the faster you 'move on' the less guilt he'll feel for giving you the boot for another woman.

I am very concerned about your actions. They are hastening the end of your marriage. Is that your goal? To be buddies with your EX?

He doesn't want you to contact him because it makes him feel guilty and is intruding on his fantasy life.

Okay, this isn't like menopause, Cara. We've got posters on here of all ages, from their early 20's through their 70's, all dealing with the devastation of an affair. That alone should help you to understand that people don't have affairs because they're 45. Or whatever they consider to be 'mid-life'. We have posters on here who are middle-aged and have never had an affair. Do you know the difference between the two?

The adulterer has a sense of entitlement ("I deserve the attention OP is giving me!") loose/non-existent boundaries, and opportunity.

The faithful spouse understands that maintaining healthy boundaries keeps the marriage safe. They do not look outside of their marriage to have their needs met. They avoid situations that serve as an opportunity to endanger their marriage.

Mid-life crisis? No. That's a one-size-fits-all piece of pop culture that doesn't work here.

Yes, ma'm, you are. And that will not serve you.

You may not see this , or you may have found out the worst & do not need it anymore but your story has all the red flags. I'm sorry ..... nobody deserves it.

But just incase your still doubting & being in denial here is a post I found last summer. Kind of funny but still breaks your heart because you know you have heard some of these from your H. I know I heard the majority of them. WS speak the same language. I still say there is a book or a website that tells them step by step what to do.

I don't come to this site much anymore , still too heart breaking. But the vets know what they are talking about they can pick them from the 1st post. I'm sorry I know you want to think the best of your H, but it is also time to stop being in denial.
Get ahold of that phone it will tell you all of his secrets I promise you



MIDLIFE for Dummies

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mid Life Crisis!! You are about to embark on one of the most perilous journey's you have ever taken. A journey fraught with intrigue and guaranteed to turn you inside out! This book is designed to help you make sure you get the most emotional bang for your buck. In these pages are the "how to" answers to the questions you have been asking yourself about damaging as many people as you can along the way. Come on and dig in, it's time to get this Roller coaster rolling on down the tracks!!

Chapter 1
Choosing the correct speech

There are 4 basic speeches for you to choose from. They are:

a) I love you but I don't know if I'm in love with you.

b) I've never loved you, and we should never have gotten married.

c) We got married to young. I never knew anything besides you.

d) You tricked me into marrying you, I would never have done it otherwise.

Once you have decided on which speech to give, you need to cause as much anxiety in your spouse as you can before you actually give it. Continue to the next chapter for Lessons in building anxiety.

Chapter 2
Lessons in building anxiety

You will find these lessons to be helpful in causing anxiety in your spouse and others (depending on the level of pain and damage you want to cause), not just prior to giving the speech, but throughout your MLC.

Lesson 1
Monstrification of your Spouse

This is easy to accomplish. Simply think of only the "bad" things that your spouse has done throughout your entire relationship. Have one of those "angel" spouses? No problem, just remember how bad she always makes you feel. DO NOT under any circumstances remember fondly your spouse, or anything they have done for you. Remember, they are going to be the cause of all of your problems, so it is imperative that you convince your self of this first.

Lesson 2
Emotional Detachment

This will be very easy to do after accomplishing lesson 1. All you have to do is start reminding yourself that you don't care about them, what they feel, what they want, or if they hurt. Simple! Every time you remind yourself of this, you will get further and further away from your relationship emotionally. Now, that wasn't too hard was it? On to lesson 3

Lesson 3
Mass confusion and Indecision

This lesson requires a little more thought and attention. You must constantly practice saying "I don't know" to ANY and ALL questions. That is imperative!! Your spouse (and others) must never know precisely what is going on in-side your head. Also, never let them know where you are going, where you have been, who you were with (this will go hand in hand with the lesson on the Other Person, or OP), or whether or not they can expect you to return home.

Lesson 4
Lies and Deceit

To get the most damage, and cause the most pain, you must lie and decieve at every opportunity. And to really achieve hall of fame status, you should be very inept at it, so that everyone knows that you are lying, or suspects, but can't prove it initially. This works very well for the following chapters, OP and Cake Eating.

Chapter 3
The Other Person (or OP)

Now it is time for you to succumb to temptation. You KNOW all of those other women/men want you! They have been coming on to you for years!! It is time for you to give them their chance at having some of you. Make sure that you leave a very confusing trail for your spouse to follow. One that lets them suspect, but have to dig and sneak (to make them feel worse about themselves) to find the information they need to prove it. Hold out admitting the affair as long as you can, and don't admit it ever, if you can get away with it.

Chapter 4
Cake Eating

This chapter is designed to string your spouse along in uncertainty as long as possible, because as long as they have hope, they won't be able to go out and find their own lives and be fulfilled. Why should they get to do that, while you are so miserable? They shouldn't!! So, make sure that you are affectionate occasionally (not too often, as this will raise anxiety levels), that you drag your feet about making a decision on the marriage, and that you leave and come back several times (as many as you can get away with).

Chapter 5
History Revision

It is very important that you revise the life you have lead with your spouse. You must use words like: Always, Ever, Never and All of the Time. Always precede the statement with the terms: you, I, and we. As in "you always nag me" "I never ever (double bonus here) get to do what I want" and "We have to do what you want all of the time". This will help to make your spouse feel like the way you are behaving is all their fault, and can cause them to feel even worse about themselves than they already did!!

Chapter 6
It's all about you!!

Remember this is all about you! What you want and need, RIGHT NOW! You shouldn't have to wait until you can afford something, just go on out and get it! You deserve a new haircut, new clothes, and some new toys. You've worked for it. You would probably look great in that new Convertible, or on that new Harley!! So don't hesitate! You live in the here and now! So why wait until tomorrow!!

Remember, the word is CRISIS and if you are in one, EVERYONE else should have to ride the Roller coaster with you! It's no fun taking a ride alone, and you know what they say about misery loving company! Go on out there and get started, so much pain and damage, and so little time!

Chapter 7
Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away

This chapter is to help you deal with the problems that your spouse will try to cause. We don't want you to have to "deal" with anything, now do we? You shouldn't have to "think" about any "issues" right now, except those that concern you "feeling good". The best way to handle this, is to Avoid, Ignore, and Run Away. Any time someone tries to make you see a more "reasonable" stance on a subject, simply Avoid making a reply...stare out into space, as if you are thinking about something important, and they will become uncomfortable and leave you alone. If there are responsibilities that need your attention, simply ignore them. You don't have to do anything you don't feel like doing. And the best for last is Run Away! This can be accomplished in many different ways. OP's can help you Run Away from all of these "problems" as well as Alcohol, Drugs, New Sports Cars....etc the list is endless. Of course, you can always just leave...but remember not to let them know where you are going, and if you'll be back!!

Chapter 8
MC and Therapists:

Your spouse may ask you to go to counseling with her/him. This is only useful to make them feel better. It cannot possibly have anything to you so there is no reason for you to follow-up with anything suggested--it doesn't matter to you. The only thing you should look for is more reasons (excuses) for avoiding, running and ignoring (see previous chapter).

Chapter 9
I Don't have to if I Don't Want to and You Can't Make Me!

Remember that this is about YOU, and what YOU want and how YOU feel!! No one else is important, so don't let them make you feel as if you have to listen to anything they say. Your spouse will try to help you of course, because they love you. Don't let them get away with giving you unwanted advice. Let them know in the teenage vernacular, that they can't make you do anything. This is important, you must be as childish as possible!! Any truly adult behavior on your part will only convince them that you are listening to what they are saying, and you will have to start back at the beginning. Of course, this technique can be used knowingly to cause more confusion and chaos, just beware of the danger, you don't actually want to start acting like an adult!!


Chapter 10
"How to threaten" and/or "How do move out".

You threaten to move out for weeks or months but you don't. (*)You tell your spouse that you got too much on your plate right now to look for a flat but that you will do so in 2 weeks time. After 2 weeks, repeat from (*).

If your wife wants to come too close to you, like entering your bedroom to talk to you, tell her to stay away or you will move out. When she replies that you will move out anyway tell her that you will move out faster if she comes any closer

Chapter 11
Art of Clinging

The Art of Clinging to the End of the Mattress without falling off the matrimonial bed while still sharing it with your spouse.


Chapter 12
Advanced lessons

This is usually reserved for those in more difficult situations, where the LBS has responded not by tossing you out, threatening to leave, or filing for divorce, but instead persists in not only OFFERING to cooperate, but actually MAKING THE CHANGES you said you needed.

"I am tired of living like this/I don't want to live like this anymore/I am not going to live my life like this?" often is coupled with another advanced tactic, "It's not you, it's me".

This line is most effective AFTER the LBS has jumped through hoops and bent over backwards. It basically confirms that no matter what changes the LBS is willing to make, the incompatibility lies within the MLCer, who has no intention of, or implied desire or ability to, compromise.

Appendix

HOW TO MAKE YOUR SPOUSE THINK SHE IS CRAZY

1. When confronted by the evidence of an EA or PA, become very indignant. Stress that the LBS is obviously just a jealous sob/bi*ch, and you are entitled to "buddies" of the opposite sex.

2. Never, ever answer the question, "Are you okay? Is there something wrong?" with a direct answer that might actually lead to a discussion that might help the marriage. Continue to never talk to spouse, never give her/him a personal compliment or touch of affection and by all means work on the "cling to the edge of the mattress to avoid touching" manoeuvre that is so successful in making your spouse crazy.

3. Always bear in mind that your spouse will expect you to want to at least give them the chance to "fix" the marriage. Since you have already checked out emotionally (of course NEVER tell them that!), you are under no obligation to actually listen to anything they say or acknowledge anything they do. This tactic is also extremely beneficial when they employ the MLC diet. When they lose a massive amount of weight and you are in ear shot of someone who mentions to spouse about the weight loss, say "Are you losing weight? Why don't you ever tell me things?"

4. Of course one of the most successful ways to drive them crazy may only be used when you have earned the MLC Black Belt. Go to marriage counselling for months, let them pour out their soul to you and the counsellor and let them believe they are actually accomplishing something. Then arrange things so the spouse finds you in your own home with OP. This will accomplish two things: a. She will finally have to understand how lucky you are to have found your "soul mate" and b. She will be doubly betrayed because she thought you were actually working on the marriage.



DON'T LET YOUR SPOUSE GET TOO INDEPENDENT - STATEGIES FOR SUCKING YOUR SPOUSE BACK IN

1. Make negative comments about OP or the chances that the relationship with OP will succeed. HOWEVER, under no circumstances, make any commitment to end the relationship with OP.

2. Make veiled hints about suicide or excessive drinking or drug use. Be erratic and hard to contact.

3. Do random acts of kindness such as yard work or something. That will keep your spouse confused and hopeful.

4. Make vague comments hinting that things might work out between you and your spouse IN THE FUTURE. HOWEVER, under no circumstances take any actions to work anything out.

CUSTODY
Using the kids to your advantage.

If you have children, they can be extremely useful for inducing fear and panic in your spouse. Recommended phrases include, "You're poisoning my kids against me", "You put that idea into their heads", and "You need to do [insert pertinent action here] for the sake of the kids'." Remember, your spouse, being a responsible and loving person, is not only trying to cope with his/her own feelings, but trying to protect the children, and you can use that to your advantage.

Don't forget to use the fact that if you spend any time with your kids, you should get Extra Credit Bonus Good Parent points from your spouse. It doesn't matter if you feed them ice cream for breakfast and have them watch "Hellboy" when they asked for "Veggie Tales", you Just Wanted To Make Them Happy, and since YOU are the best judge of Happiness, that makes you Super Parent. You can use this opportunity to trash talk your spouse ("Isn't this more fun than what Mommy/Daddy would let you do?" "Mom/Dad doesn't know how to relax.") which of course, will be repeated back to your spouse so you get the benefit of destroying their self-esteem second hand.

Highly advanced MLCers may want to start casually using the word Custody, but be very, very careful. While useful for sending your spouse into a state of panic, you certainly do not want to be responsible for a bunch of kids who will seriously cut into your personal fun time. The word Custody should only be used in a casual tone of voice for the most devastating effect.

BUTTON PUSHING

You (the mlcer) know a lot about your spouse. You know what pushes their buttons to get them both upset and/or happy. You have the power, you can do it! So using the kids to upset them is fair game (see section on how to use "custody" to upset them but not take on the "custody"). And if that ever stops working, find something else. Suggestions might include pets, valuables in the home, their appearance, family, career. Nothing is out of your reach since you have put in so many years getting to know your spouse--use what you know.

THE BLAME GAME

By now, you should be aware that all of this MUST be your spouses fault, however, your spouse may not understand this completely yet, so you need to start planting the seeds.

There are several ingenious ways to put the blame on your spouse, and we will be exploring them all.

Method 1: The Non-Blame Statement

I'm trying not to blame YOU

This statement implies that you are "not putting the blame on them" but on closer look (which your spouse is guaranteed to be doing) The words actually put all of the blame on the spouse (where of course we know it belongs).

Method 2: The Passive Blame Statement

I don't think that I can live with you.
My opinion never mattered to you.
I cant' live like this.
We rarely have fun anymore.
I don't want to live this way anymore.
(There are many more I'm sure you can think of)



These are passive statements that don't actually assign blame to your spouse, but your spouse will definitely get the idea if you use them. They can't help but see that it MUST be them that makes you feel this way.

Method 3: The Direct Blame Statement

You never listen to me.
You never put creases in my pants.
You use bagged salad.
You never keep the house clean.
You are going to do it your way.

All of these are direct statements of blame. You should mix actual faults with things that don't really matter to make it more confusing, and make your spouse feel as bad as possible about themselves.

Your spouse has probably already started doing the hard work to look inside his/herself (Yuck, what an awful thought!) and will take on all of the faults you list to try and correct them. This will keep them occupied for awhile, and you can avoid any serious relationship talks while they apologize for and try to fix all of their own faults. Make sure that you don't actually accept the apology, that way you can continue to bring the fault up which will slow down their self improvement process. Remember, they are working on becoming better human beings, and you wouldn't want that to happen to fast, as that would interfere with your ability to string them along.

Note: NEVER ACTUALLY ADMIT TO ANY FAULTS OF YOUR OWN!!!! REMEMBER, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY! YOU ARE THE GOOD ONE, AND HAD THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN AFFAIR, LIE, SPEND MONEY, OR ANY OTHER THING, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE BAD!!!

let's not forget "We're just incompatible - we always were."

Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it's "too little, too late", or wasn't what you meant AT ALL. If all else fails, put the LBS down for being so willing to change herself for your needs. Also, when the LBS starts to make changes, make SURE you find fault with these changes, or point out how it's "too little, too late", or wasn't what you meant AT ALL."


How to keep you spouse guessing...be mean one minute threatening divorce, etc then next day be kind and sweet almost the way your spouse remembers you..rinse repeat....


HOW TO CONTINUE THE CRAZINESS ONCE SEPARATION/DIVORCE IS AGREED UPON

1. Even though by now you, dear MLCer, have done everything human possibly to convince your spouse that you do not love him/her and want out, when the time comes to actually file, DON"T DO IT! This is the coup de gras of MLC. Absolutely DO NOT TAKE THE INITIATIVE. This is a most vital and awesome crazy-maker. Holding out will force your by now totally devastated spouse to finally throw up his/her hands and seek legal counsel.

2. Once the LBS has had enough and decides that divorce is in their best interest, you have won HUGE points here. Refusing to be the one to file now puts YOU in the role of victim, bringing you all the attention and pity necessary to allow you to again regain your image of the abused one in all this. Now you can, with absolutely NO guilt, tell everyone the divorce was your LBS's idea (which of COURSE it was!) and they will assume that: a. the LBS lost all that weight and obviously has been involved in an affair, and b. the marriage ended because your LBS spouse is going through a - YES! THE PINNACLE OF CRAZINESS! - Midlife Crisis!!

Caracal,

It seems as though we have had very similar experiences. My husband and I have been together for 24 years and married going on 16 years; he will be 40 and I am 41, and we have no children. I thought that we had a wonderful marriage although I had been working on my Master's degree for the past year and a half and did not spend the time with him that I should have. The week after I graduated last month, he told me that he was no longer in love with me and that he had been unhappy for many years, but he never indicated his feelings to me in any way.

I couldn't have been more shocked about this revelation because he has always been a wonderful and loving husband who went out of his way to take care of me including making sure that there was gas in my car, and packing my lunch, (both of which I never asked him to do) and we exchanged hugs, kisses, and "I love you's" on a daily basis. I sang his praises and acknowledged to everyone how blessed I have been all these years. All of my relatives and friends are shocked about this as well as his parents, with whom I am extremely close. They feel that he is going through a mid-life crisis due to stress at work.

As in your situation, he says that there is no one else, and I believe him. His reasons are very vague and include my "lack of attention and affection", my "inability to take care of myself," and my "inability to have my own life."

For several weeks it seemed that things were going well between us, including accepting daily hugs and kisses that I initiated. I had hoped that he would agree to marriage counseling, but when I brought the subject up two days ago he told me that it is too late and that he does not want to work things out, and that there is nothing I can say or do to change this. He says that he still cares about me and wants the best for me, but that he is no longer in love with me and that he has to leave.

Out of desperation I have resorted to begging and pleading with him to reconsider and to please give me a chance to make things right. I wish I had known about Marriage Builders sooner; I just found this website tonight.

Because of my own experience, I can completely understand how you didn't see your situation coming. Although it's true that in many relationships there are obvious warning signs of problems, I am living proof that the signs aren't always there, especially if one spouse is trying to pretend that everything is ok. Don't let the other posters convince you that you should have recognized the signs or that your husband must be having an affair.

I hope that you and your husband are able to work things out, and that you continue to provide updates. I wish you the best of luck!

Wow Jahart, it is in some strange way reassuring to know I am not the only one in this situation. However, I have taken on board that there are too many people both on this site (with experience of the signs) and people I know that have raised the question "is he having an affair?" for me to ignore it any longer. Although all that know us are stunned and say he was too "doting" and "a gentleman" to have an affair, my doubts are raised and I need to be sure. So I hope to hire a PI to answer this question without a doubt so I can decide my next move, although am concerned over the potential cost. I have also posted a query on the operation investigate forum about recommendations for private investigators in the UK as I am really out of my depth with this and don't want to fritter money on a charlaton. If it is an affair I want to cut contact until the affair is over, although if no affair I want to be as supportive of his crisis as possible. If it is an affair I will seek as much guidance from this site as I can.

An update on my situation in case anyone has advice... I am still a mess, and actually starting to scare myself with my thoughts and obsessive round and round in circles thinking.

Three weeks ago my husband came to meet me at my request, and we spent a long day discussing where we were at and why we had reached here. Although he can give reasons why he has been so unahppy, theey do not seem unsolveable in my eyes, though I accept his perception is different. He began to cry for "how did we let it get to this" and we were consoling each other and listening. He left to go off to a friend's house for a few days, and based on what he had said about his feelings, I went and got a card to apologise for letting him down and a gift (that was quite expensive) but very meaningful in supporting his need to become more independent financially and educationally. I explained there were no strings attached to this, I just wanted to recognise where he was at. I left this at his sister's.

Four days later he returned from his male friend and text me to ask to meet. We agreed to meet the following day, and meanwhile I learnt that my mother had met him when he was delivering furniture to the house and offloaded a lot of her own feelings, disappointment and anger. We went out for a meal, and to cut a long story short, he admitted he was still very confused about what he wanted, but that he was "no longer a brick wall". I immediately burst into tears, and he himself was cholking up, so we left the restaurant and went for a drive that ended with us getting pretty intimate in the car (though no sex). He invited this verbally although I physically initiated it. He was giving complimtents, saying he "felt a spark" although still saying he felt so pressured by family that he needed some time to think things through. I pulled back from taking it further as I didn't want to pressure him and he agreed with this, that we needed to think things through. He made clear this was not "goodbye sex" mentality, and that we needed to be sure of where this was heading.

The following day he asked me to meet him at our storage container to go through it and give him a lift home. We spent a few hours just chit chatting as we sifted through stuff, and on the drive home he invited me to his sister's b'day that night. I asked why he was inviting me, he said so I could see the nephews. Not satisfied with this, I stressed he needed to want me to go as I could visit the nephews anytime, he agreed he would like me there in a very non-comittal way. So off we went, to an extremely difficult situation where I began to get very upset as I started to question if this was my goodbye to his family who play a big role in my life. He recognised this and we left early, with him asking why I was upset. Whereas prior to this I would have bottled it up so as not to worry him, I am trying to communicate much better and I explained I felt such a loss of his family, of him, of our future and the future children I had thought we would have together.

The following day he text me to say he was sad to see me so upset but could understand why I was and I should not feel bad for this. He said he would love to catch up the following morning, the day of his flight back overseas. He actually left an uncles to drive an hour in order for me to get that text and reply so that I would meet him as he had no service where he was. So the morning of his depature we met for breakfast, and he indicated I was "slowly taking down the wall brick by brick" and that he was still very confused. We chatted and went for a walk, where I again (possibly unfairly?) again became physically affectionate. He reciprocated and I now really dobut that he is not sexually attracted to me as he originally said he was. I asked how he was getting to the airport and although he had planned to take the train he accepted my offer to drive him (we are located rurally) providing he could pay for the hotel so I did not have to drive home in the dark and upset after he left. So we spent the drive down to the airport with him talking about his life dreams and asking me questions such as "if we get back together would you want children, where would we live" etc. Largely we both wanted the same things, with both of us agreeing we really wanted kids now. The whole day was full of touching that he was often initiating, kissing, hugging. I asked if he wanted me to stop contact once he was back in the UK, he said that if I was "passionate about something then I should fight for it". At one point we thought his flight was cancelled and he even said that he would not mind as at least he would have extra time with me and maybe he booked the return flight too soon. But he still got on the plane.

Since then, he text me to say he was okay and to check I got home safely. He rang once at my request a week after arriving and bang, it was back to square one, it is over, his feelings won't change, I should get the point, move one, etc. When I explained I was so confused because of the four days before he left giving me some hope, he actually blamed me for misinterpreting, said he has just succombed to my and his family's pressure and it was not what he actually wanted. He said he needed "space" and then changed slightly to "time" but all of this is so non-comimitall which I have read from other posters is a sign of him stringing me on. I reacted badly, kept calm but said I was hurt and disappointed he was not the man I thought he was, he became very angry, shouting "well hate me then, I'm a bad person", etc. I just backed off, saying he is not a bad person, he is good but doing somthing very bad and I was not sure what I would do, if I would stay in contact or not as I was his wife and not prepared to simply be a friend. He said he had my number and could contact if he changed his mind to see if I was still ready to give another chance, as although he would "never reject a call" from" me he also questioned if it was beneficial to be in contact as I was reading too much into his words and actions. And the conversation ended at that point. Neither of us has contacted the other for the past week.

I don't know where to take this now, but realise I need to answer doubts in my head about possibility of his having an affair. Sorry for the long post, but it helps to vent. And Jahart, I hope you work things out with your husband,and thank you so much for your input into this as it means I am not the only one who believes my husband is not having an affiar even though I now feel I need to take steps to be 100% sure of this.

jahart, welcome to Marriage Builders! Might I suggest you start a post of your own and look and listen to the advice you will be given? If a marriage can be saved, this site will do it. If the folks listen and follow the advice from the vets.

These folks here are spot on when it comes to sniffing out affairs, when MelodyLane says there is one, there is one. I used to think like you do, but I have to say I have the deepest respects for ML, she has more than earned that respect, and she's darn good. As are so many others.

I've yet to find a post where she has been mistaken on that.

Telling Caracal not to let the others tell her that her husband is having an affair goes against everything I have learned here. No, most wives, won't recogonize the signs when they believe they are in a happy marriage. It's hindsight that sees those signs. It's the impartial folks here that see far more than those in the middle of the emotional mess that brings them here.

Please read up as much as you can here, starting with the yellow box with red border to your right "Most Popular Links". Buy the books, HNHN and FILSIL and LB's and read them cover to cover. Start living what you are reading.

You will see

Caracal, I've read thru your thread. This line screams at me:

"he said that if I was "passionate about something then I should fight for it"."

I will admit I'm totally confused here.

So why aren't you fighting for your marriage? I'm confused as to why you were not in a whopper of a Plan A while you had your hubby in the area. I understand also the posters who have said don't be buddy buddy unless he wants to talk about the marriage and getting back together.

They are the two extremes at this point, and you are smack dab in the middle. Not really pushing to show you want to improve the marriage, and not saying no to 'friends'. Can you seriously want to be friends with someone who drops a marriage like that? That is playing you like a fiddle? Really?
I believe from what has been said, that your hubby is either having an EA or PA, OR that he is 'freeing' himself TO have one, either eay, it's on his mind and when the seed is planted.....Read what 8thgrader posted, that's so very much what is happening here!


This line also bothers me:


Say WHAT??? MORE independent? Sorry, marriages are not supposed to be independent, they are supposed to be INTERdependent. I'm almost afraid to ask what the 'gift' was, but ask I am.

Either way, I'm curious as to why it wasn't advised (or if I missed it) that you weren't in a Plan A prior to him leaving.

Wishing you the best of luck, and as for the round and round circle thinking, that is totally normal. Don't let it scare you.

ps. whatever happens, please, PLEASE do not bring children into this marriage until it is recovered, not just starting, and not as a way to hold on. Don't do that to a child.

8thgraders, I read your post and many of the things mentioned seem to be written by my husband. Thanks. Can't get hold of his UK phone, but have checked the Australian one and nothing suspicious. But then he would keep it all on the UK for cheaper rates and if there is an affair, knowing I can't access it. Really wanting to get a PI on the job, but googling it is not really getting me anywhere as I read that the industry is not regulated and many just ask the husband for a bribe to give the all clear report... this is not what I want, I want to know the truth either way. I figure after 18 years I deserve at least that. If Melody Lane is reading this, I may be slow on the uptake, but your advice has finally started to sink in, and please give me some suggestions on how to get a PI on the case... I hope to get this done by the weekend as this would be the best time to follow him.

No Stress, in response to some of your comments. I am not, definitely not, looking at having a child at the moment, this would be too selfish and also impossible given I think you need to be in the same country to conceive... at least I can still joke! I referred to this as just more oddness that we want the same things but he is taking steps away from it, not working towards it. Again pointing to an affair.

After reading your comments I spent two hours sobbing, I feel I am failing miserably at any attempt I make to reconcile. I know this was not your intention, and I need the feedback. I don't really understand the Plan A concept maybe, especially as I am yet to get evidence of an affair, just suspicions. Until I get evidence how do I operate Plan A? My confusion and floundering has not been helped as I have a female friend who five years ago got involved in an EA although she made the decision not to pursue this to physical. She reconciled with her husband after five months as he maintained contact and was supportive of her throughout, although to her credit she was honest with him and their families. I am not in this position.

The gift I gave was a laptop as I took ours and my hubby complained that I had never encouraged him to develop his computer skills and he was frustrated with himself for not being able to do internet banking, etc, as I had taken responsibility for this. In hindsight I wish I had installed a keylogger on it before giving it, oh well, live and learn to be more cynical...

My indecision and uncertainties, and plummeting self-esteem are driving me insane. Please help me with Plan A!!!

Also, he contacted me last night, I kept it very short, asking why he was ringing, apparently to thank me for transferring fund into his account from mutual shares I sold. He sounded miserable, I was upbeat, although maybe this is wrong as it excuses him from his guilt if he thinks I am coping? I need a step by step guide. And which books should I order? LB' and HNHN?

jahart, I am sorry this is happening to you, but it is very likely he is having an affair. Just ask yourself why your husband wouldn't be willing to go to counseling and turn it around? Can you think of any valid reason other than the fact that he doesn't want to turn it around? Unless there is an affair, that just makes no sense. The conditions in your marriage that you describe [working on your Masters] are the kind of conditions that lead to affairs. The fact that you asked him and he said no is not convincing at all since we wouldn't expect a cheater to say yes. They never do.

Asking someone who is cheating if they are cheating will avail you exactly nothing because they don't admit it. The goal is to quietly slip out of the marriage with no fanfare, usually blaming the other spouse with vague complaints. So asking will get you nowhere.

At the very least, you should investigate it and rule it out. I predict you will find an affair, I am sorry to say.


No, you are living proof of a spouse who does not know the signs and has never investigated. A spouse who wants to believe her husband is not having an affair.

Caracal, here is what is happening. When he gets time alone with you, the spark starts coming back. But when he is AWAY from you with the OW, he shuts you down. He is compartmentalizing his relationships. This is EXACLTY what I would expect to see if he were having an affair.

But I want to APPLAUD you for doing a darn good Plan A. You have left a wonderful taste in his mouthn by doing a superb job of meeting his needs when you are with him. You are doing super!!

This gives me great hope and I will tell you why. His affair is doomed. 95% of affairs crumble within 2 years because of the very reasons that made them possible, thoughtlessness, deceit, selfishness. Those traits will find their way into the affair and it will eventually kill the affair. Your marriage is much more likely to last, though. The odds are on you.

But you can effect the crumbling of the affair if you bring it out into the open. I will finish reading your posts and comment on them. Wanted to add that jahart's own H is likely also in an affair which renders her opinion on your situation somewhat suspect. The folks who are telling you there is an affair are people who have experience with this AND have actually saved their marriages. She cannot make the same claim.

Oh nonononoo, you are doing good!!! You expressed your heartbreak when you declined to go see his nephews, so you are telling him how hurtful his actions are. At the same time you are focusing on being ATTRACTIVE. And it is working!! This is why he is confused. See, he needed you to act the SHREW so he would feel justified in his actions. But since you didn't do that, he is confused. That is GOOD.

Caracal, is he in Australia or the UK? One way we find PIs here through PINOW which is an association of accredited PI's. They do have international PIs on their list: http://www.pinow.com/international/

Another way we have found good PIs is to call the local police station and ask for a reference. Sometimes they know of good PIs since many are former cops.

Thanks for your encouragement Melody Lane, I am needing it. He is in UK, I am in Australia. I now feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. The PI's I have contacted are not really giving me much hope of getting an answer. Anyone reputable has indicated that without access to the estate and with no way of knowing when he will be going out, the cost could skyrocket into days of surveillance waiting for him to leave. I simply can't afford that, although I am definitely ready to pay for two slots of surveillance if it gives me a definite answer either way. They can not access his mobile phone, bug his home, etc, and PI's have actually suggested that if there is an affair it is likely with a colleague and therefore it will play out behind the gates. My only way forward is to contact him to fish for plans (which he is unlikely to give as he is very defensive when I ask about mutual friends even). Or I contact the mutual friends whose loyalty is likely to lie with him as he is there and their colleague and they have only heard his side of the story. Is this too risky? Or contact his family to see if they can probe if and when he may be going out? Any other ideas?

Also, I have not initiated contact with him since his arriving in London to tell me it is now over. Having revisited the Plan A and Plan B info, I realise I have sort of moved into Plan B in an effort to protect myself from pain but this is probably not right given I do not have any evidence and have not explained this to him. Should I revert to Plan A until (or if?) I get evidence to prove affair / no affair? My worry is that he has clearly indicated "it is over, you need to give me space" so I don't want to appear to be making selfish demands by "pressuring" him as he keeps saying this is what I and his family are doing. Arghhh, as you can see, I need your expertise!

Caracal, his request for "space" is not reasonable and should not be observed. It is not in the best interest of your marriage since it's purpose is to facilitate an affair.

I don't have any answers for you except maybe going there and surprising him with a visit.

Caracal, big to you, I'm sorry my post made you cry and doubt your actions, I truly am! I said I was confused, and this shows I really am confused, I've read ML's answers, and they make sense when I look at it from her viewpoint and how she answered.

I've been out of town for the last few days without much access to the internet, so did not see this till tonight.

Thanks for clearing that up about the baby, I went back and read it again, and can look at it differently now, and yes, you are correct, you do kind of need to be on the same continent Although, with science the way it is now, I'm not really positive on those pesky birds and bees anymore. It's getting to be more like butterflies and test tubes or something. Keep your sense of humor, it's the only thing that saved me from so many really bad years. It did scare me as there are so many women out there who would and do, go that route hoping to keep their husbands. It's sad to see when it happens that way.

I've re-read several posts, and the ones especially on page 2 of this thread are where I got the impression of being in the middle of Plan A and 'friends'. This line as well, there were two that I recall where you guys got pretty frisky, and you pulled back:


Plan A as I understand it (someone correct me if I'm wrong here please!) is to pretty much give everything you have to fulfilling the other spouses top needs, (usually SF, RC, Conversation and affection) while not having any AO, DJ's and IB mixed in, then go cold turkey per say into a Plan B. The SF is where I thought you might have been holding back (and I can understand why you might). That way, when apart, the other spouse has a taste of what "could be" fresh in their minds. Yes, I understand it to be for use when the other spouse has an affair, but with your situation of his going overseas, (and the suspicion of an affair) it seemed like a given that it was a perfect opportunity for a full blown Plan A.

Thanks for telling what the gift was. This might be interesting to you, when I met my stbxh, he was the computer geek, and the only computer (and geek) I'd seen was some 20 years earlier. Stbxh was the hardware kind of geek (to this day the guts scare the beegeebees out of me) and knew DOS well (but did not continue keeping up so much with windows), but when it came to programs and understanding Windows and figuring things out, I was far better in the end, thanks to him. He used to literally push me out of the chair when I'd ask how to do something, (talk about a LB on his part there, especially the day I hit the floor he pushed so hard) and I'm a hands on learner, tell me or show me till you are blue in the face, until I physically do something, it never clicks, after ticking me off so much getting pushed out of the chair, I quit asking 'how' and started reading 'Help'. His mistake there, "Help" got me to where I could crack his computer a few years back. After that he was far more careful, but his laziness at the end gave me some really good 'goods' on him to show the judge in our custody battle. (good as in make me when I found it) I began thinking, what's the worse thing I could do? Crash the computer? "Back up, play around and figure it out" was my new motto. I never did crash mine, he crashed his all the time, and not always on purpose.

Your husband's complaint that you never encouraged his computer skills reminded me of what I ended up doing. Your husband hadn't reached my frustration level, or he might have done what I did, it was pure frustration with a touch of anger, that I ended up learning as much as I did. Just wish I'd of thought about keyloggers.

Don't worry about hindsight, it's always 20/20, I have got darn near perfect "hindsight" vision these days. I had to choose not to let it eat me up.


The indecision, uncertainties and self esteem I know well, I fought those far too long myself. I think we all do when faced with the 'work at it or let it go' choice. When I finally made the 'decision' both times (twice married), it was with the knowledge of multiple affairs, and yet, it was still the hardest decision I've made, to walk away. Only you will know when the time comes and that decision is made. Once made and the self doubt goes away, the recovery is much faster and easier than it is with indecision hanging around. For me it's been an unbelievably good ride to where I am today. The self esteem, that's a doozy, it can take a hard hit without even realizing how hard until it's shot to heck.


His miserable to your upbeat sounds good to me! Again, I'm confused still in many ways, but I'm seeing this as it shows he's missing you and shows him you are ok alone, since this would be, in my mind, Plan B, again, someone correct me if I'm wrong! As I understand Plan B, the only talk should be if he's willing to work on getting back together. Not a 'friends' kind of talk. As ML asked, is there a way to make a surprise visit? That might be one way to find out if there is an affair or not, or get the marriage back on track.

Books. My stbxh and I bought all of the books at one time, back in 2002, and I ended up giving them to my older daughter when I left, a move I regret now, she never looked at them, and I believe she tossed them, when her and her bf broke up. I'm finding a lot of this information has not only helped me see where my part was in the breakdown of my two marriages, (not that there will be a third to use what I'm learning), but it is helping me IMMENSELY in how I relate to everyone around me, my kids, my friends, everyone, and also, how they relate to me. I recogonize the AO's, DJ's and IB in those relationships. I'm learning an amazing amount of stuff here. Needless to say, I recommend all the books Just a lot of good stuff in them.

This has gotten very long, I'm sorry about that, I do tend to write books I'll be watching your thread to see how things work out, I wish you the best and my thoughts are with you.

((( hugs )))

I tried to catch up a little. PI's sorry don't know nothing about.

And yep you will have guilt you should have seen it coming,I still do most days

But from this day forward as painful as it is read everything you can on this forum. Especially on affairs the vets can tell you play by play what your H is going to do or why he is doing what he is.

I too at 1st thought they were trying to shove an affair down my throat. That my H was not like that. But once I got used to the idea & many red flags were pointed out to me & I stopped being in denial.

They taught me some things that my H or myself never thought I had the b*lls to do.They also gave me the strength to fight for my marriage & not roll over & die. Which is the most important part.

Listen to them .... once you stop catering to " his I need space", I love you , but I'm not in love with you & get with the program to fight it you will see an amazing difference.

I will tell you right now it will not be easy & some days you just want to say wtf but each day you get up fighting some more.

I haven't won my battle yet but I am still fighting


(((( hugs )))

Thanks ML, I am now considering this. I also read one of your posts about moving back in to the home but without kids I don't thinks I would have much chance of this and worry police would be called to remove me as it is his employer's property. I actually have a job offer back in UK and thought I could always go back and work for a few months in an effort to try to salvage relationship. I suggested this to husband on our first phone call after his return, and he was very quick to say it would be pointless as he does not want to reconcile and it is over. My worry is I would have nowhere to live initially other then hotel until I sorted something and absolutely no support whereas here I have so much... And his response is an unknown, do I have the courage to go through having a door slammed in my face? I know only I can answer that, and I am thinking about it.

I can't thank you enough for your support.