Brother, she ain't afraid to lose you cause you are laying at her feet.

Grow a pair of brassies, let them clank, and show her you ain't afraid to leave her in the mud.

She doesn't fear it, because she don't believe it.

Sir,
You have asked for help, and my colleagues here have given you the best advice for ending your wife's affair and having a shot at saving/rebuilding your marriage. I urge you to listen to them, and act in accordance with their guidance.

You are laboring under a set of societal constructs that are working toward inhibiting your actions. The primary error that you have been led to believe is that being "nice" will result in her being "nice" in return. its true that I never really called her bluff, by seeing out any of the tougher measures for more than a day or two. Nope!

Getting tough measures have only pushed her away

You cannot make that statement because quite honestly, you have not yet gotten tough. This might come across as unduly harsh, but you were never "getting tough". You were "getting laughed at".

Here is "Getting Tough":

• Tell everyone who knows your wife - coworkers, friends, clergy, relatives to the 99th cousin, parents of your children's friends - about your wife's infidelity. Ask them to use whatever influence they have on her to steer her straight.
• Investigate the laws in your jurisdiction regarding the effect of evidence of adultery in any marriage-dissolution action. Investigate as well if your jurisdiction has any "alienation of affection" statutes.
• Get your hands on any funds, accounts, assets that are currently the property of the marriage, and transfer them to accounts only you would have acces to.

The life she had lived facilitated her infidelity. Does it make sense to let that life continue unchanged? No - your job right now is to RUIN that life, PILLAGE it, and leave it in RUINS.

Until the affair is destroyed, this is NOT a cooperative exercise between you. It is a WAR between you.

NG, as usual, brings up a good point about the finances. This begs the question: how is your wife's apartment being paid for?

Are you still there J?

Pep you rock gurlfren

If you read that post thru J and ponder upon it's wisdom you will cone to realize it is the only sane choice in your sitch

You are not alone

Hey all.. i'm back and thanks for your advice.. I am carefully thinking through a plan to move in to Stick mode when i'm done with this 2 weeks of carrot.

One thing that has to be taken into account is her psychological state. After my exposure of the affair she was so crazy she was wanted to leave to that other European state (a 2 hour flight away) .. expecting to go with the kids. I'd even seen her registering for her profession in the new state in her mails.

So this was so far gone in the beginning that the stick was not working in my opinion. She never once said she loves me.. at counselling she rated us at 1 and them at 10??? crazy.

So I got a court order process started to block her leaving the country with the kids. She lost this battle and agreed to stay in the area. He would have to move here if thats what she wanted.

She made it clear all along that he's the greatest love she's ever had and she simply doesn't love me and cant be made to. I kept telling her if she comes back and tries to build it will happen over time i am sure, just as we were in love before.

So the point I am making is that I used the stick in the beginning to bring her down to earth.. then I tried some carrot to become her friend again, then when she was away and in his arms I told her I could not take the pain, and said she is coming back to nothing, she would have to live in a hostel or move out and there would be no/minimum contact.

I was unable to see this through because A) the kids would suffer immensly and B) I cannot care for the kids alone - she has to do her share. Which is how this situation of her having a key arose. because her "hotel room" is not acceptable for the kids to stay in more than every other weekend.

So.. reviewing my performance. 1) she's still here - he wanted her to move 2) I got her to sign a post nuptial which would sign over the house being built in to my name, and create independent finance from day of signing - I could not risk any stick during this period!!

If you think about the 3 key things here... kids money location, i've secured all 3 whatever the outcome. So this is a small victory.

Now I have the logistics stacked in my favour I am trying to win her back. So when he came here to check how the life will look, staying in the "hotel room" (note: it will not be easy because he does not speak German - where we live, he lives in Ireland - he has no savings and neither does she), I got her agreement to take the kids to her parents (who also live a 2 hour flight away) ... remember that her parents are pursuing no contact and have rejected her, so this was a real psychological stick.

Since I came back I've pursued 2 weeks of: don't ask questions, be nice, meet needs. As said we have spent a lot of time together, the ring went back on, we chat for hours and share nice conversations. She then wrote me the first ever letter expressing the dilemma she faces. If she could "love" me it would be problem solved.

So on the face of it - you are dealing with a highly emotionally unstable woman - and I have pulled things back from the brink, to a possible 50/50 situation. I know I need to apply more stick, just trying to figure out when. She is very excited about the new house (which she signed over to me in the post nup!) so I want to make the most of that in painting the picture of the two alternative lives she has to choose from.

Many of you point out that I have been weak and she gets what she wants, but most of the current situation has been totally controlled by me, including the choice of "hotel room" which was a little on the pricey side and I knew it would leave her with just survival money and very little to pursue the affair. I also know he works 7 days a week and doesnt have time off until September. That means no physical contact is possible until then. Therefore he can only meet limited needs via sms skype etc... But I do have to work to that schedule, and not forgetting the all important new house being finished in October.

So yes more stick, but what and when?? If I want to move to no/min contact now, it limits her contact with kids, or forces them to live 50% in poor conditions. That choice would be hers I guess?? I also need to get help out at home. We are both living in Germany and do not have family around to help out. I work full time and she only part time.

Also, before too much stick and stress and I has was having a breakdown.. my job suffered, and I needed to survive first and foremost or I could not care for the kids at all. I started on anti deps and am much stronger now, so I do think I'm ready for round two... again please try and understand my situation and suggest what type of stick and when??

Thanks guys for your immense, immense support!!!

Jeremka, in the nine months I have been here I have seen time and time again where a BH says his wife is special somehow. They change the plan, they customize and then they FAIL. One guy even jumped the fence at a private community in the US - which might get you shot. That takes some stones, but he didn't follow the plan. I hope it worked for him but I doubt it.

You need to bring this plan right down the line, no changes. Read enough to these threads and you see your wife is just like all WWs. Its really strange to say that but they are.

Keep her with you and no one leaves the house.
Expose the crap out of them!
Take all the other advice and stop treating her like shes a unique case - she isn't please believe me.

Take care of yourself because those kids need you, but they need your wife too.

You are in a war here. Don't forget that.

You are in plan A since you are still communicating and interacting.
You have to work out in advance the logistics of when you go to plan B.

When you move to plan B.....you will need to change the locks and WW will not be going to the dream house or any place you live. She will need to brainstorm on how the kids will be managed in her care where ever she abodes. You can not protect her from that very lovely parental activity of making a nest for her kids where ever she chooses to create one for herself. The kids will manage AND they have your home to be in when they are with you.

In plan A, sure, let her have a key. Once you move to plan B.......change the locks.

Find alternative care for should WW leave to be with OM cause she missing him so very much. Have care set up to fall back on while you are working.

Plan

Plan

Plan

Jeremka, did you read our posts? What is required here is the stick NOW. Not later. We gave you some ideas and you apparently have ignored them. Your plan is not working for you and part of the reason is because you are under the illusion that exposure FAILED. You misinterpreted your wife's crazy reaction to exposure as a FAIL, when in fact, it was a WIN. The stronger the reaction to exposure, the greater the effect. But you stopped. You did what we call a "trickle exposure" which is just enough to piss off a WS but not enough to kill the affair. It is enough to piss her off with the result that she comes after you HARDER. Sort of like bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight. You just get your [censored] shot off.

That is all you have done here. So the answer is stop being complacent and start exposing this affair wide and far. NOW. Not later. Cause holy unmitigated hell in the affair.


When you expose, the EXPECTATION is fury and rage. That is not a bad thing. Unless your goal is to avoid the wrath of the WS at all cost instead of saving your marriage. If that is your goal, you should give up now, because you won't make it. But be assured your marriage can survive her temporary anger over an affair; it can't survive an affair.

Conflict avoidance will not save your marriage; it will lose it. Half measures will avail you nothing. Please put aside your "plan" and adopt the plan of those who have saved their marriages. It might not work, but it is your best hope. As you can see, your Plan A [for appeasement and [censored] kissing] is not working and is most likely to lead to divorce.

Please, do not mention the carrot/stick thread ..... which was originated by me.

Betrayed-scared-to-do-anything-to-anger-the-wayward ... people like you ... are the reason I wrote "carrot/stick" in the first place.

"Plan nice" is your plan. I hate that plan.

There is no way you are in carrot/stick mode.

Take ownership of what you are doing .... "Plan Nice" .... AKA Plan "bend over".

She won't love you as long as she is in affair. So you are wasting your time. In the absence of a STICK it just comes across like you don't care very much. SickofLimbo, another betrayed husband on our board, was taking this same approach and here is what he said Steve Harley of Marriage Builders told him:

Just to clue you in J.

I have done both, in the effort to keep my wifes head screwed on straight, and plan.."If I just loved her more she will oove me back.." does not work..

When we were younger, me 28 and wife 29, she was a little to wild to settle down, but she could get away with it she felt because she was just so goodlooking guys would hang all over her everywhere she went. After three years of putting up with her getting worse and worse I called it quits for what I thought was for good.

After two years she convinced me she would not act like she did before, and to try again. She had changed and coming back to my children to try again gave me so much joy I was overwhelmed as the marriage seemed fully recovered.

Things were so different, respect, humility, and teamwork seemed to be coming back to a marrige that still had problems, but was so much better.

Ten years later, when I was even more fully invested in the marriage, and I thought we would never possibly ever have problems again, she started to mess up real bad. I was convinced that patience, tolerance, love, and sacrifice was the way to win her back. After all, she told me how much she suffered when I left.(A sign that she didn't own her own issues), and I felt if I she could go through that for our family, maybe thats what I should also do.

Part of her problems allways had something to do with substance abuse issues, and she was a champion of dodging AA or IC therapy to handle that part of her emotions. This time around she was fully addicted to Heroin and hid it from me for two years, before she told me she wanted to leave me and our teenage children. Such a difference from the women who begged me to come back and promised..

I freaked and did the chase her thing and was a total marhmallow in comparison to how I would not put up with that crap before..thinking, "it can be like it was before if I..."

She passed away mar 2009 from the complications of her heavy drug use helping her to contract cancer.

Women need men with confidance enough to stand for themselves and not be pushed around. I was that man a long time ago, and it saved her life then, she even told me that leaving was the best thing I could have done to get her head straight.

For your familys sake, and take it from me, for YOUR sake, don't be a doormat. Stand up.

I was in the same situation for 9 months. My WH was having 2 cakes and eating them at the same time. After being the best wife I can be, I packed up and took my kids along to have a peace of mind with supportive family members. It was the most peaceful time since I can remember. I was glad I finally took the courage and accepted that I have to move on and let him see for himself what he wants. He has to choose. If he can't, it's he's loss.

2 weeks later and having had a taste of "freedom". He realized it was not what he thought out to be. I set rules for full transparency and counseling (individual and family). You have to make her see that too many people will be hurt if she makes the wrong choices.

Now he has pledged to God to his faithfulness. But I am still keeping a close watch for slips. It has been a habit for too long and there is still a lot of re-programming to do.

All the best. If she can't make a choice, she's not worth it. If she makes the wrong choice, she's definitely not worth it. Accept the fact that you will be happy only with a faithful partner or on your own.

Take care and prayers are with you for courage.

Hi all,

still thinking about this one carefully. The update is that I have written her a letter, expressing that she needs to give him up and start showing commitment before the dream home is ready. I made clear that my mission in life right now is to do everything I can for this marriage, but that she has to decide if she wants to be a part of the future or not. I painted a clear picture of how those 2 alternate futures look.

I have a free weekend and am toying with hopping on a plane and paying the lover a surprise visit, though I'm unsure what this would achieve. Going to min contact is going to Plan B as far as i'm concerned and again I'm not sure the effect this would have at this stage...

What i've found surprising by some of the comments is that it seems to contradict what Dr Harley says here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033e_qa.html

"But what do you do when your spouse won't leave her lover? What if she won't move to another state? I have recommended two approaches to this problem.

The first approach that I often recommend is to compete with the lover. Even as she is seeing the man, try to meet her needs, financially and emotionally. That approach has the advantage of proving that you care more about your wife than her lover does. Since you have more to lose than the lover (your family unit and present way of life), you can usually outlast the lover. He eventually finds someone else with less baggage.

The problem with this approach is that it is emotionally draining. You are giving her all you can, and getting very little in return. Besides, most people are totally overwhelmed by the image of their spouses in bed with someone else, and feel more like killing their spouses than meeting their needs. Some can't follow this plan at all and most people can't do it indefinitely.

As a compromise, I usually recommend a time limit for this approach, say six months. Then, if no progress is seen during that period of time, switch to my second approach. This plan is described in chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs ("How to Survive an Affair"), and takes the position that marriage is a contract that assumes mutual need fulfillment. When one spouse has an affair, the contract is broken. I recommend that you not only stop meeting your unfaithful spouse's needs, but you should avoid contact with her entirely until she is willing to abandon her lover. When that happens, you return to my first approach, to pull out all the stops and show her that you are willing and able to meet the needs met by her lover.

When you begin with the first approach to the problem, and then switch to the second, it has the advantage of your wife remembering you as a thoughtful, caring person right up to the day that you pulled the plug. It is very important for her to know that you really care about her, but you simply can't take the pain of knowing she's with another man.

When you first learned about your wife's affair, you were probably very uncaring and disrespectful. You may have criticized her, made disrespectful judgments, and lost your temper. If you leave her after those ugly scenes, all she will remember is what a jerk you are, and she won't be very tempted to come back to you. So you must leave her with proof that you care for her, and that you also respect her judgments and opinions, however painful they are to you at this time."

This is exactly how I felt, that I had played out 2 months where I was trying to get on, but every day almost trying to force the issue, often criticizing and being disrespectful. So the last 2 weeks I have been competing "proving that I care more about my wife than her lover does". Then I notice she starts opening up more to me, and reducing contact (I know, i'm snooping). Dr Harley says I need to keep this up for a long time (a few months at least), and then pull the plug (Plan B). Why is this not the plan?? Why am I supposed to deviate and go to no contact now? or do things that achieve little like further exposure or confronting the lover? I dont feel like I want to give him that respect. I want to act like .. she should be coming to me of her own accord, if she has any sense, because I am better than him in all ways. I can demonstrate this, and if it does not become apparent before, it will become apparent when Plan B kicks in.

I notice a lot of posters saying theyre in Plan B and at wit's end? Why is this? If they have laid it out properly, surely they should have the confidence that when they pulled the plug, their WS would soon come crawling...

OK, so she's getting needs from 2 for a while.. but as I observed when she gets needs from me it reduces her desire to get them from him. In terms of competing, that's called winning right? Of course if she doesn't see the light .. switch to Plan B, but she will remember me as a nice caring person, and not the one that made her search for love elsewhere..

Playing devils advocate a bit here.. would appreciate an intelligent critique of the above..

Thanks again guys.

J

Nevermind.....
You have been told over and over again this answer. Do what I did and go back and read from the beginnig and stop skimming over the parts you don't like to hear.

GROW SOME AND SHOW YOUR WIFE YOU CARE!!!!!

Quit financing the affair!

You are selectively cherry picking Harley materials to find anything that supports your approach and avoiding anything that does not support that complacent approach. That gives you a completely lopsided, warped picture of Harley's approach to saving a marriage from an affair. What you are suggesting here is not Dr Harley's approach. Those of us who have saved our marriages didn't do it this way.

I want to point out that a) you are the least objective person on this thread and b) you purposely overlooked Dr Harley's numerous writings and radio clips about exposure being the MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON against adultery. Yet you call it something that will "achieve little." How would you know? Is it smart to tell people who have saved their own marriages using exposure that exposure "will achieve little?"

Wouldn't it be true to say that your best thinking has not helped your marriage thus far? Wouldn't it be rational to listen to those who have saved their marriages? See, we have saved our marriages. You have not.

What do you do with these quotes from Harley? They don't fit into your complacent approach at all:



And these radio clips, one telling a H its hard to save a marriage when you become an enabler: Part 11 - "It's very difficult to overcome an affair when you become an enabler."

Telling a betrayed husband he should not tolerate the OM and that his lack of action has greatly diminished his chances of recovery:
Dr Harley: "Don't Tolerate the OM" Part 1
Part 11

What you have done is confuse Plan A with appeasement. You are basically enabling the affair and nowhere does Dr Harley support or endorse enabling.

Secondly, no one here has told you to go to no contact now but after some very specific steps. Plan A should last around 6 months for a man.


You don't understand Plan B. The purpose and expectation is not to force the WS to "come crawling."


Yes and no, but you are only focusing on the carrot part of Plan A. You won't make it that way. Enablers don't make it.

Ok...going to take a guess here that your basic issue is that you're scared she'll leave you if you demand that she stop cheating on you.

Is that it?

What was the "or else" statement that surely followed?

Not trying to beat you upside the head, just hoping that you'll get moving a little faster and stop second-guessing yourself.

Been there, done that.

This is like handing the wheel to a drunk driver. You have placed yourself and your children at the mercy of a drunk driver who cares nothing about your marriage. A better strategy is to tell her what YOU DECIDE and she can be a part of it if she meets certain conditions. If not, then you will be moving onto divorce. All you have done is continually hand power over yourself and your children to a terrorist. You will never save a marriage that way.