Mods - feel free to move this as I'm new and wasn't sure where to put this. I have pushed my marriage of 12 years to the brink by hiding the massive ($100k+) credit card and tax debts that I ran up over two years, then lying about it when caught, then lying even more after I was caught and lying about my efforts to change myself. I have come to realize that I'm a compulsive liar - I will lie about big things (although I no longer have that much of a chance to do that) and small things. I do it even when there is nothing to gain for lying, although I will certainly do it when I do have something to gain.

I want to change so that I can live a life with integrity and so that I can someday, over the rainbow, earn back my husband's trust. He feels stupid and betrayed, and has told me many times that he feels like I've gone out and cheated on him. It's the lying that really distresses him, more than even just having spent all the money.

I know that honesty is a huge part of the marriage builders program and I am also just looking for advice and support on living up to that kind of radical honesty about everything. I love my husband and unfortunately up until now I have been making excuses to myself about how time will heal the wounds I've created. I just hope it isn't too late.

Thanks -

hopestochange
New Jersey

Your husband "feels stupid and betrayed".

Your words.

I think this is interesting, don't you?

Let me introduce myself, hopestochange,

I am schoolbus.

IRL my world is words. I make a living thinking about thinking, and how words make us think.

Really, more exactly, I think about what YOU say, or write. Then, I think about exactly what you said or wrote, and what your brain did to get you there. And, what it meant, deep down inside of you.

It is a curse.

First, your name. "hopes to change".

I want to say that you "hope". Just so that you know, hope is an externalizing verb. It is placing an internal desire for an outcome on an external - and unknown entity or force - basically, you are looking to be rescued. The name you chose speaks volumes about how you are facing your situation regarding the change you seek.

At this point in time, you believe that there is "something" out there.....in the universe.....that will somehow land in your world that will somehow "change" you and that you will quit lying.


won't happen

Because the next issue is this: " I do it even when there is nothing to gain for lying, although I will certainly do it when I do have something to gain."


This is part of the problem. You are deceiving yourself regarding the lying.

The first part of the sentence is where you self-deceive. "I do it even when there is nothing to gain for lying".

There is always a gain for lying. The case is that you are LOOKING AWAY from the gain. Your denial of the gain is keeping you from STOPPING this behavior!

The fact is, if you can understand why you lie about the stupid little things, you could actually stop yourself from doing the big things.

Why?

Because it is the betrayal of people at the smallest level that opens the door for you to justify betraying them at larger levels.

Do you understand that?

If you can justify stealing one grape at the grocery store, then you can find a justification for stealing a box of cereal. Then, you can justify robbing the store. It creeps up. You become "entitled", and the grocery store "blameworthy".

Somehow, in the process of lying, it is okay for you to tell the little lies. It "doesn't hurt" the other person not to know the truth. That's what you tell yourself. Or,
"it's an unimportant detail", or, "they will never find out". And another one, "He/she probably deserves it, because he isn't so perfect himself/herself." So you justify your little lies. When the bigger lies occur, these smaller justifications are already ramped up. Ready for use, and you have them in place - and they WORK FOR YOU. You believe them, because you have used them before.

It is easy to blame someone else, especially if that other person has done something to make us angry, or if they have faults that are irritating to us. And what if that other person is someone who does things that we find not so great? It makes it that much easier to treat that other person poorly! That much easier to blame him or her, and that much easier to justify lying to that person, or treating him badly, having an affair on him, or cheating her out of money, etc.

Lying serves a purpose, always. You need to look at what that purpose IS>

makes you seem more important
allows you to stay in a conversation
puts you one-up in a conversation
makes you seem more interesting
makes your past seem more diverse or interesting
covers up mistakes or errors
covers up other lies
keeps you out of perceived possible trouble
reduces your anxiety about what people "think of you"
sets the stage for future behavior or crimes

You really need to think, and deeply, about what those lies that "don't really get you anything" really get for you.

Don't run away from what they get you.


Now. About the idea that your husband feels stupid and betrayed.


Your words.....



Why wouldn't he feel that way?


I want you to consider why he would feel any other way except stupid and betrayed.

Personally, I think he is feeling exactly the way he should be feeling, which is a normal reaction to what you have done to his life, and to him.


What is bothering you is that your wall of indifference has

for some reason

come crashing down.


And you finally CARE about the consequences of your lies. Your husband's words HURT YOU.

And you want to repair this.


For that, I am glad. I am glad you are here, because of all the places to be, this is the one place you can get help.


I would say that you need to read some books. Yours is a bit different, so you need to read His Needs/Her Needs (order on this site.

Then you need to read

Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box. By The Arbinger Institute. It will help you understand the moment you begin lying. And why you lie.


And you need professional counseling. Find someone asap.


I know this was long. I know I hit you hard, and perhaps below the belt. I mean to help you. I hope I did.

SB

SB - thank you so much for taking the time to write such a long response. I feel touched and blessed that a complete stranger took so much time to respond. I don't think that you said anything that was below the belt.

I wanted to clarify something - this isn't something new, this is something that has been going on for two years.

I'm going to respond to what you said:


Yes, I think that is absolutely right. And I realize that it won't happen. I've hoped that for two years - or, more to the point, I have hoped that I wouldn't get caught. I hope that things will happen which divests me of the need to take responsibility and change things. I need to change from "hoping" to change to bringing about change. And I need to do more than just write about that...

I think that my little lies are things that I use to avoid feeling uncomfortable about things. I have so much pride built up that it's just ridiculous. I also use the "little" lies to cover up mistakes or failures, I just think of them as "little" because they're about smaller things. I realize that even white lies just set the stage for making me feel comfortable with bigger lies.

I agree that my husband has every right to feel betrayed and stupid. I didn't let myself think about how he felt or dismissed his feelings for many years because I either felt that he didn't have the right to feel that way or because I couldn't face my own failures. I couldn't let my wall of indifference down because I couldn't face my own failure and the pain that I would feel then.

I have a huge ego. It gets in the way of making things right.

I am seeing a counselor, but I don't know if it is helping. It's more for marriage issues than the lying specifically. I am also on anti-anxiety drugs. I am even going to do inpatient work because I think that I am that screwed up about lying.

I need to stop this and stop it right now. You're right that I gain something from every lie from big to small - I need to realize that those gains aren't worth it, no matter how small the lie seems at the time. And I do lie to myself, all the time.

I hope that this has helped me. I have a long history of not following through on good advice. I'm going to order those books if DH lets me use his card to place the order or if I can get them locally or better yet at the library.

I have blown his trust to the point where last night he barely trusted me to drive 2 blocks to let the neighbor's dog out. He thought I would drive away in the car and not come back. It's shocking to hear him say that, when it didn't cross my mind, but it makes sense when I look at it from his point of view.

I really appreciate your advice, especially since I'm not quite sure I posted in the right place. I think that it feels to DH that I have cheated on him, which I have.

Hoping things will happen doesn't bring change about.

I hope to win the lottery. Fat chance. I'm in the company of lots of great folks, but the truth is that millions of us LOSE. All of us, except one.


You don't change because you choose to stay the same. Why?

laziness? there is likely an attitude of this in your nature. it is in all of us, to tell the truth.

fear of being judged by others? you want the truth about this? I will tell you the truth about this. People ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE A LIAR. The truth is that they already have talked about you behind your back, they have already caught you in your "little lies", and already do not trust you. They have already judged you, hfc. This part is already done, signed, sealed, and delivered. Especially because you have lied all of your life! You have trailing behind you a slime trail of lies that people already point to and say, "Yep, there it is, that's hfc's trail of slime!"

So don't fear being judged. You've crossed that bridge already, only YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT. The very sad part of this is that you have been so caught up in yourself, that your indifference to others and their feelings literally blinded you to their reactions to you. This blinded you to the fact that they JUDGED YOU NEGATIVELY because of your lies.

You will start seeing it, now that the indifference is falling down around you. Watch and see. You will start to .... care ..... because it hurts to be judged. Ouch.


do you not stop because there remains a payoff in lying? SURE!!!! You have continued to lie because the benefit for you has not gone away! So, why change? Oh, but now there has been a change. Perhaps the wall of indifference being crashed will now make that change for you. Let's hope. Of all things, that may make the difference.

In the past, you were immune to what anyone else thought, because you did not see how what you did affected them.

Now, you have this man you love. And you see your actions causing him pain. And in turn, you are hurting - you are experiencing the sense of guilt and also the sense of shame.

These are new to you.

They are useful tools.


Take them to an inpatient clinic.

Use them. My advice is for you to figure out why you believe other people's needs are not as important as your own.

There is a concept out there that everyone on the earth has needs. And we do - we all have needs.

I have no right to prioritize your needs, nor to weigh my needs as "more important" than yours. While my needs are different, I cannot come into a relationship with the attitude that my needs are always more important and outweighing yours, and therefore anything I do and any means I use to meet my needs is justified.

Your lying behavior is essentially just this. You believe that your own needs outweigh those of every other person on the earth - because each and every time you lie, you place your own personal agenda before the needs of the people you are lying to. You place your needs above all else - using any means necessary to achieve your own agenda.


I ask you to really dig deep here - and tell me why you believe your own needs outweigh mine, your husband's, or anyone else's. When you explain this, you will begin your recovery from lying.

Seriously - do the work to explain it. You know the answer. No matter how "stupid" this sounds, put it in writing. It will be worth it in the end. I will NOT tear you apart. This is worth every word for you. I am here as a fellow traveler on the earth. For this one time in your life - trust someone.


SB

OK you have taken the first step. You recognize your sin. Now what do you do with them? Consider Christ. Because, unless a man be born again he shall in no way enter in to the kingdom of heaven. Jesus died for your sins, before you told a single lie. Right now your father is satan, the father of all lies. Accept Christ as your savior and he will give you a new nature.

HTC, you hit the jackpot having schoolbus respond to you. She is very busy and often is not on the boards for long stretches of time.

Read and re-read her response to you. Everytime you read it you will glean a little more from it. You will get lots of help on this board but you have to do the work.

(((HTC)))

Why do I believe that my own needs outweigh everyone else's?

I feel that my husband owes me for things I've done for him. I feel that his expectations of honesty are unrealistic (they're not, really - this is just my selfish thinking).

I feel that I am smarter than everyone else. They don't need to know the truth because I will take care of the problem since I am so much better than them. They're just being unreasonable. I feel that my problems are unique and that I am also more sensitive than everyone else. I feel like "if only they were in my shoes then they would understand why it's OK for me to lie here." I feel like I understand things so much better than everyone else, and that's why I should be able to "get away" with lying. I know better than other people what is important and think I'm right more often than them.

I actually am much more honest with my friends than with my husband. He is the one who has felt the brunt of my lying. I think that might be because I feel like with him I have the most to lose if I am found out doing something wrong. I also feel like he is the one who confronts me about the most things - for whatever reason I just don't have a lot of close friends where I even have an opportunity to lie about things. But even there I realize that over time I think my friends find me much less reliable and see me as someone who looks to them for help when I'm in the middle of a bunch of drama rather than someone that they can rely on. But that's a side note.

I also feel like the version of relationships I saw growing up were full of lies, so I thought it was OK. I also saw very little of people putting someone else's needs ahead of theirs, so I thought that each person in a marriage should look out for themselves first. I thought that if a husband wanted his wife to change, it meant that he didn't really love her and I resented my husband for wanting me to change.

And yes, I am lazy but more to the point I think that deep down I still felt like what I was doing was for a good reason (because I was just so much smarter and therefore "knew best").

I have an appointment on Tuesday for an in-patient evaluation. I am afraid I could wind up losing my job over this, because of missing work. But, in the long run, this is something that I need to address for myself and for everyone else around me.

SB - keep the tough love coming. I am overjoyed that I have someone out there in the universe who will talk straight to me. My husband will, but I often have trouble accepting his advice because I feel like he's not "neutral" (yes, pretty stupid of me, since he gives out a lot of good advice).

THANK YOU THANK YOU.

and to the other poster, thanks for chiming in. I have often felt guilt in church and am considering becoming much more spiritual to help me find peace and honestiy.

Smiling woman - thanks for the info. I really feel thankful to have gotten spot-on, no-nonsense advice right away.

I also saw a counselor for a few months last year, a different one than the one I am seeing now. We weren't really addressing this issue because I hadn't admitted it yet. She wasn't too much help because in retrospect I feel like she was just kind of coddling me and encouraging a lot of bad behavior. I probably manipulated her with half truths and lies as well. One thing I learned from that experience is that I need straight talk even if I don't like it - I can manipulate people who don't keep it blunt, and that doesn't help me.

I know that I need to do the work. I'm glad to have people here giving their advice and I plan to keep coming back so that I can truly "stay honest."

I would think the lying needs to be dealt with as you work on your marriage. You won't get much encouragement here regarding marriage counselors....traditional ones have a dismal success rate. If you work on yourself with a counselor and work this marriage builders program you will see results.

Yes, I have read the negative reviews of marriage counselors. I do trust ours, and while she doesn't strictly follow the MB program, her priorities are aligned with theirs in a lot of ways. She really stresses honesty and accountability, which is important for me. I have mostly been doing individual work with her now, because she thinks that I need to fix myself up in order to give my husband what he needs.

Now the work begins. This will hurt. It will hit home. You will need time to process.


Do the work. My considerations of what you are thinking, and my comments, are in red. Your own words are in black.

You HAVE betrayed your husband. You have cheated on him, with yourself as your first love.





Why do I believe that my own needs outweigh everyone else's?

I feel that my husband owes me for things I've done for him.
In this case, my question is, do you believe that you owe him for anything he has done for you? Where is the tally book? Are there others in your life who also "owe" you? And are there people in your life who you owe a debt of gratitude - which is a debt that could never be repaid? Has anyone ever saved your life, for example? What then, is the debt that you might owe that person? How does one go through life keeping this kind of accounting -

as for me, I would owe so many people, and owe so much, I could never begin to repay them. As for those who have found themselves in debt to me, would I find it honorable to then treat them poorly because, for some circumstance, they were in need of my help?

"Miracles are provided BY those who temporarily have more, TO those who temporarily have less." Because someone might owe you something, then, you consider them less than you. Your idea is that you immediately have the "right" to treat them badly.

What you "have" - is the OBLIGATION to treat them BETTER, because it places that person in NEED, and you in the position to HELP.

Change - this is one way of thinking you have in error. Consider what I have posted, and think about what I have to say.


I feel that his expectations of honesty are unrealistic (they're not, really - this is just my selfish thinking). Your honesty here is good. You do see that the expectation of honesty is not an unrealistic one.

You expect it from others. This is true, isn't it....

Yet, you do not give it in your own relationships.

Because it maintains POWER AND CONTROL.

You say so yourself. Watch and see.

I feel that I am smarter than everyone else. They don't need to know the truth because I will take care of the problem since I am so much better than them. And here it is. Power - you are smarter, you are better, and so you have the control in the situation - you will take over, keep the information away from them, control it all, make all of the decisions FOR everyone else.

You decide. It keeps you in the driver's seat. That way, you believe you can control the outcome of your life.

How is this working for you? (I like to channel Dr. Phil sometimes )


They're just being unreasonable.
Oh, you hate it when other people have minds of their own. So, this is when NEW lies come into the picture. This is when you find yourself weaving more webs, and you get into trouble with friends. And why they pull away.


I feel that my problems are unique and that I am also more sensitive than everyone else. One of the important things we notice here on MB is that when affairs begin, the wayward spouses often state their case with "my affair is unique". You really are not special. You really are not more sensitive than anyone else. For proof, read my story, read the story of anyone else here whose name starts or includes "hope", read the story of herpapabear, the wonderings, or any betrayed spouse. Every person on earth bleeds. Every heart breaks. We all, believe it or not, have lied to cover our rear ends, to make others think better of us, and to make ourselves seem more important.


I feel like "if only they were in my shoes then they would understand why it's OK for me to lie here." This is a justification, plain and simple. When you tell yourself this, you know you are lying to yourself, and even you don't believe it. It sounds good, kind of like, "We should do lunch."

I feel like I understand things so much better than everyone else, and that's why I should be able to "get away" with lying. Read this again to yourself. Let's pretend you really ARE the world's best expert in all things.

Wow.

I, Schoolbus, am giving advice to the World's Best Expert in All Things.


Exactly what does that make me?



Now, put the reality cap back on every single time you have this thought, and have a belly laugh with me. Because the truth is, you and I both know neither one of us is the world's best expert in one darn thing. Except in what goes on in our own heads - and to tell you the truth, there are times when I can't for the life of me tell you what is going on in my own head.


I know better than other people what is important and think I'm right more often than them. This thought occurs to every single person on the face of the planet. We all believe this.

The difference is that the majority of us realize that it is a fallacy.


You are coming to understand this, and my hope is that it hits you REALLY HARD right between the eyes, soon enough to save your marriage, and the way you handle your family, friends, and job relationships for the rest of your life.

I actually am much more honest with my friends than with my husband.
Here is where I think you are probably deceiving yourself. My educated guess would be that you lie to your friends in a different way than you lie to your husband.

With your friends, your lies would consist of how you present your opinions; you tend to agree with them about things that you probably do not really find important and would disagree with if the discussion were more in-depth. You probably present yourself in a certain light, when the truth is your personality is not exactly as you show it with them. You likely present interests to them that would not be shown to others, which are shown to your husband and not to yet another group of people. Honesty means you are "the same" basic person, and one group of people would likely see "the same you", with slight variations, but not a significantly different you from what another group of people see.



He is the one who has felt the brunt of my lying. I think that might be because I feel like with him I have the most to lose if I am found out doing something wrong. He is the one who has seen the naked self, you have made the most "mistakes" around him. You are most exposed to him, and you know this. Plus, your wall of indifference is most vulnerable with your husband

because:

YOU ACTUALLY CARE HOW HE FEELS, AND YOU CARE THAT HE IS HURT BY YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR.


I also feel like he is the one who confronts me about the most things - for whatever reason I just don't have a lot of close friends where I even have an opportunity to lie about things.Because they cannot get close enough. Your indifference to others results in them choosing other people as friends, and they understand that you lie, which causes them to remain at a distance. Understand that your behavior is what makes for poor friendships - it is your own lack of investment IN others - your choice to try to control, decide for them, direct them, lie to them......do you see this?


But even there I realize that over time I think my friends find me much less reliable and see me as someone who looks to them for help when I'm in the middle of a bunch of drama rather than someone that they can rely on. But that's a side note. Not a side note at ALL! This is insightful!!! You say this, then run away from it. You are afraid of what you began, so you say it, then push it away as a side note.


Stay with this thought - because you are right on. They DO find you unreliable. You are right. You do create drama - why????????

Then, when they are needy, where are you?

Look to the first paragraph - when people "owe" you, what is your view of them?????? Think about this!!!!!!! That is exactly WHY your friends leave you.

I also feel like the version of relationships I saw growing up were full of lies, so I thought it was OK. I also saw very little of people putting someone else's needs ahead of theirs, so I thought that each person in a marriage should look out for themselves first. I thought that if a husband wanted his wife to change, it meant that he didn't really love her and I resented my husband for wanting me to change. You came to this toward the end for a reason. It is a sort of afterthought, and I would agree that it is dangling in your life. It is out there, kind of like a ghost that remains. It is not a "cause", but more of what you were used to a long time ago. You saw it, and it sort of stuck. I would say by the way you have worded this, you are ready to let it go. You have the true desire to see this go out of your way of life.

I believe you can make this change.

And yes, I am lazy but more to the point I think that deep down I still felt like what I was doing was for a good reason (because I was just so much smarter and therefore "knew best").You hold onto this.

Remember these words:


"hopesforchange will not die because she was wrong. The world will not come to an end, and the Error Police are NOT coming for her."

One of the issues I see with you is that you cling to the idea that you are smart. I don't see evidence to the contrary. What you need to understand in all of this is that being smart comes with responsibility - you have to also accept that you will make mistakes every single day you are alive. You have to accept that there are people in the world who are smarter than you are, and also people who are a lot less intelligent. Being smart doesn't put you in charge. (Although I would like to talk to whoever made this decision )

I think that being smart also makes you responsible for making the necessary changes for your life to be better. That would include becoming an ETHICAL person, don't you?

Why would being smart make it okay to lie?

I have an appointment on Tuesday for an in-patient evaluation. I am afraid I could wind up losing my job over this, because of missing work. But, in the long run, this is something that I need to address for myself and for everyone else around me.

SB - keep the tough love coming. I am overjoyed that I have someone out there in the universe who will talk straight to me. My husband will, but I often have trouble accepting his advice because I feel like he's not "neutral" (yes, pretty stupid of me, since he gives out a lot of good advice).
Your husband is not neutral. And it looks to me like you have been "neutral" for too long.


What you are currently looking at in the mirror is what is called "brokenness".

This is not a bad thing.


It is not the hits you take in life. It is how you rise from the ashes.
THANK YOU THANK YOU.

and to the other poster, thanks for chiming in. I have often felt guilt in church and am considering becoming much more spiritual to help me find peace and honestiy.


I hope this helps you. Give consideration to it. When you are in counseling, try not to focus on your past so much, but on looking deep within yourself and why you justify yourself and treating others as though you are entitled to lie and control them. Your answers were quite honest, and I appreciate that.

Go tell your husband that you found this website. Tell him that you want to work the program here, because your marriage can benefit from Radical Honesty, Openness and Honesty, and meeting each other's Emotional Needs.


He needs support, too.


This marriage is about him right now, and you did betray him. You have some very heavy lifting to do. There are some Plans here that can help. Get him here to read the Basic Concepts, so he can get some healing going, and you two can get some plans working.

Schoolbus

Since we are in the SAA forum, let me ask... Have you cheated on your husband as well?

CV

SB - WOW. You made me realize things about myself that I had never thought of. I cannot thank you enough. I *do* lie to my friends - in ways that until now I had not even thought of as lying. The biggest one I can think of is politics - I used to be quite liberal, but now am fairly conservative. Most of my friends are quite liberal, and this actually includes much of my family. When politics come up, I don't stand my ground or state my case. Even with people I've known for a long time, I just go silent or pretend to agree when I don't. Why? Because in this case I don't want to create conflict, which is probably just another version of me *not wanting to think I am wrong*. I don't know that I have actively lost friends, but I feel that I am more distant from some of my older friends and probably it is largely due to this. In fact, it's only recently that I've begun to acknowledge that the drama I've created has made me less fun to hang out with and that I've made people uncomfortable. I do try to be there for my friends when they need me, and especially with the friends who have given of themselves. But - when things get tough with friends or there are things I'd rather they not know, I tend to just pull back rather than go through anything difficult. I don't have the choice of pulling back with my husband, so we actually have to deal with my lying.

As for owing people - yes, that is a really selfish attitude. It is how I have looked at things for a lot of my life, and a way of thinking about the world that I need to change. I have seen romantic relationships in particular as sort of zero-sum games. If he got something, then I should get something.

About having one authentic self - that is also definitely true. I shade my personality depending on what group of people I am with (see above re: politics). I feel like I have a persona more than a personality, if that makes any sense. I'm not really showing them the authentic me, I've for many years shown them a version of me. If I want to get really philosphical, I feel like I need to work on having an "authentic me" that I use in all situations.

DH is actually the one who found this website, which says just TONS for my amount of intiative, right? I had lurked a few months ago and finally decided it was worth my while (there's more of that The World's Greatest attitude floating around, sarcasm intended) to sign up and actually GET some help if it were possible. I have always had a problem asking for help, which sounds really corny but is true. To get back to my point, DH has read the Basic Concepts and we've both read Suriving An Affair. DH ordered the other two books you suggested today.

There is a huge part of me in reading your email that (full disclosure and honesty here) just wants to say "Shut up already, I know I screwed up! Can't you just pat me on the head and tell me how great I am for even admitting this problem???" but oh yes, I know that's the selfish voice in my head again. I often think that if I admit I was wrong, then I shouldn't have to be confronted with the details. It's that I don't want to hear them - just get out of my face!

I'm glad you appreciated the honesty, and I thank you again for all the time you put into your reply. I know I haven't replied to everything, so I'm going to go back and re-read it and see what I've missed.

CV - nope, I have never cheated on him. I posted here because I wasn't exactly sure where to put it, and I figured that lying was obviously a common issue in affairs.

Also, I think that the underlying concept - deceitfulness - is similar, but obviously not the same. I don't want to seem like I am not respecting what others who have had a wandering spouse have been through, but I do think that my deceitfulness has something in common with wandering spouses.

SB - I am going to continue to process your message. I'm glad you think I can change - there are honestly a lot of times when I am not sure that I can, but I know I need to. Now I know that I *want* to as well and that all the hoping and wishing in the world won't do it.

Thanks for that. yes, there is a common thread of behavior. Lying, stealing... I would guess that this also creates a withholding of affections as well.

CV

You actually sound really similar to my WH. He was smarter than everyone else too, and therefore truths and opportunities to have input were not their business!

I think its great you and your h have caught this in time because lying is very painful to endure.

My h lied to me about debt, and his adultery with my friend. The images of him lying to me are more hurtful than picturing them together. Can you imagine that?

I would suggest you do Dr H's radical honesty questionnaire and vow to yourself that you will do it full throttle and not hold back. I like to think of myself as quite an honest person but when I took this questionnaire I had that illusion shattered. There were actually many instances of things where I had glossed facts and misled in my marriage to make myself look better.

When you have been hurt by lies as i have the only way to have it made up to you is to get a full, frank i-dont-care-how-i-look dose of hard truth from the person who lied to you.

If my h came back I would ask him for the worst truths about himself and about the worst details of the affair.

and a poly.

I would tell him 'the worse it is to hear, the more shameful for you, the more I will see it as unflinching honesty and the more I will like it'

So I would try that if you are serious about making amends to your husband.

hfc,

I think the one insight you had from what I said was sort of pulled away from, yet you stated it quite clearly.

Here it is:


You spoke about having a "persona" for each group you hang out with.


This is exactly what I was talking about. This is, in a nutshell, what lying is all about. You create for yourself "whatever works", and you "use" that to make your way through life.

Then, in that same little paragraph, you talk of wanting to develop an authentic "you", a personality to "use".....


Life isn't this way. You simply ARE, hfc. Deep down inside of yourself, THERE YOU ARE. You have dreams. You have feelings. You have beliefs. You have likes, dislikes, preferences, opinions, dreams, and yes, you have HOPES. We all have these.

What you are doing is trying to fit yours into every situation. Life doesn't work that way. You cannot possibly make it so that everyone will like you. It will never happen. Because they figure out your lie. They end up not liking you because they never got to know "you". What you showed them instead was a moving target - something pliable, something fake. You gave them

vapor

and they wanted substance.

What I mean to say is that "who we are" is not like a cloak we can put on and take off according to the fashion of the day, or the restaurant we are visiting. "Who we are" is more than this. We form ourselves through values, ethics, beliefs, views, learning, seeking of information and working to change poor habits into good ones...there is so much about what it is to be "who we are". To believe that this "who we are - ness" is static and unchangeable is, well, for lack of a better word, stupid. We are forming "who we are" every moment. We choose who we are, we choose to lie about it, or build ourselves into better people, or avoid ourselves, or put on airs...and every moment of our lives, until our last breath, we are growing and changing.


It is in that idea of change that we can hold out hope for humanity, and for ourselves, hfc.

You can change. You do change. You HAVE changed. Consider the hfc of age 14, 18, 22, 30, 34...you are not the same person today. Even yesterday, before this conversation, are you the same? No.

Because today, you understand that you cannot "hope" but must ACT for change. It is work to do, not a magical expectation and miracle that will land on your head.


On to my next thing: Sorry I have lots to say. I mean, I am not "sorry", but it is who I am. You can consider this your luck, or your doom. Whatever. The beauty for me is, I can type and you cannot stop me

I want to go back to the idea of "whatever works" for you. It is a very important thing for you to understand, because it goes to the very heart of your lies.


William James wrote a great deal on the concept of "What is Truth". Around his time, there was a great deal of discussion about the concept of "truth" in general. His approach to the idea of truth (boiled down - because to tell you the "truth", if you think *I* am long-winded, you should read William James!) was basically this:

"The truth is whatever works."

Think about this. Really think.

What this means is that the "truth" can actually CHANGE. Yep. Old Mr. James thought that the truth was malleable. You kind of think that way. The truth of who you are can change. The truth of what you say is "flexible" to the situation, because you allow yourself to lie, you make up justifications and rationalizations in your mind about why it is okay to do so.

Truth is whatever works.

So, if it works for "now" that you are a Republican, that's what you are. Then, if it works five minutes from now that you are Democrat, then you are. Did the ACTUAL "truth" change?

No.

Mr. James


was WRONG.


The truth is an entity that stands alone. The truth is not malleable. It simply exists - although there are conditions and situations under which you, I, or others may not ever know the complete truth - it DOES exist.


The fact is that you have operated most of your life under the concept that the truth is "whatever works" at the moment. This has caused you, and others, a great deal of drama and harm.

Furthermore, within yourself, you have developed an approach to your own person, that "whatever works" is the way to go. You speak of drama in your personal life. Do you see a connection there?


Somewhere you will find that the truth is a peaceful place. It is full of calmness, serenity, and honor.


You can find what you are looking for there.


It is the foundation for all things holy. All things right. All things good.

And, oddly enough,


it always seems to "work".


Schoolbus

SB, I read and re read your posts. Amazing stuff. I think HTC will find that if she can implement the Radical Honesty portion of MBs she will begin to overcome her compulsive lying.

HTC, a couple of years ago SC analyzed a letter that was written to me by my young cousin who had had an affair with my then husband. The post was lost in a big server crash soon after, but I had down loaded a copy. I re read it just the other day. I am still blown away by her analysis. SB hit dead on many details she would have no way of knowing. We are blessed to have her here helping us all.

Agreed - SB, thanks so much for your analysis. You have hit so many things right on the head. It explains a great deal: why I feel insecure about so many things, why I feel like a fraud, why I have felt very empty or like I "don't even exist." It's because at some level I don't - if you asked a whole bunch of different people questions about me you would get a whole bunch of different answers because there isn't one fixed thing.

Professionally I am in a job that basically values "winning" and isn't very high on valuing the type of absolute honesty that I need to learn. That's another source of this habit - I"m not trying to make an excuse here but just trying to explain where some of this comes from, both the needing to be right and the willingness to see the truth as malleable.

I need to read and re-read this and really digest it. Thank you so very very much. Not necessarily the easiest thing to read but I know it comes from a good place.

And I feel like I have so much to say but no time to say it right now!

Hello
This is very interesting.


Why should we believe this is true?
How easy would it be to make stuff up out of whole cloth on a discussion forum?


You are making an excuse to polish your image.
Therefore, it makes sense to doubt the veracity of your job description.
You think having a "winning" work environment gives you an out.
I think using your job to excuse your character flaws makes you look even weaker.



Your character has been formed internally.
Your character is not born of some recent external force, such as your job.
If you sold shoes for a living, you'd still have the same character you have now.
If I were to be hired by your company to take over your job, do you think I would start lying to people the way you do?


How exhausting.
How tedious.
How uncharitable.
What a heavy weight to carry around all the time.


The willingness to do harm to others.
Lying is one tool you use to harm others.
Yes, it is.
You do not mind causing others to suffer.
This makes you cruel.

QUESTIONS:

1. Under what ideological & ethical umbrella do you form your opinions of what is morally right vs morally wrong?

2. Are you your own God where you write your own ethical rules to suit yourself and alter those rules when it suits you?