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What he cites from this site is that if the relationship isn't fixed within two years - if it isn't better than when the affair or other trauma took place - then the marriage isn't worth saving.

Sorry for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
Demanding, yes - he has very high standards. To his credit, he holds himself to them as well (he is as hard on himself as he is on those close to him). I wouldn't say he is dictatorial.

If he believes in sacrifice and I don't comply, then the marriage ends.

Well, the marriage won't last anyway if you DO engage in sacrifice. It is just a set up for resentment. Your husband is engaging in selfish demands:

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People who make demands don't seem to care how others feel. They think only of their own needs. "If you find it unpleasant to do what I want, tough! And if you refuse, I'll make it even tougher," is what they seem to be saying.

Demands depend on power. They don't work unless the demanding one has the power to make good on his threats. But who has power in marriage? Ideally, there is shared power, the husband and wife working together to accomplish mutual objectives. But when one spouse starts making demands-along with threats that are at least implied-it's a power play. The threatened spouse often strikes back, fighting fire with fire, power with power. Suddenly, it's a test of power-who will win the battle?

If the demanding partner doesn't have enough power to follow through with the threat, he or she often receives punishment, at least in the form of ridicule. But if power is fairly equal between a husband and wife, a battle rages until one or the other surrenders. In the end, the one meeting the demand feels deep resentment and is less likely to meet the need in the future. When the demand is not met, both spouses feel resentment.

I want you and your spouse to get from each other what you need most in your marriage. I want you to meet each other's emotional needs and be there for each other when you need help. But let me assure you that demands will not get the job done.

When I ask my wife, Joyce, to do something for me, she may cheerfully agree to it-or she may express her reluctance. This reluctance may be due to any number of things-her needs, her comfort level, or her sense of what's wise or fair.

If I push my request, making it a demand, what am I doing? I am trying to override her reluctance. I am declaring that my wishes are more important than her feelings. And I'm threatening to cause her some distress if she doesn't do what I want.

She now must choose one of two evils-my "punishment" on the one hand or whatever made her reluctant on the other. She may ultimately agree to my demand, but she won't be happy about it. I may get my way, but I'm gaining at her expense. My gain is her loss. And she will most certainly feel used.
Selfish Demands

Why would you agree to be bullied, hopestochange?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by hopestochange
What he cites from this site is that if the relationship isn't fixed within two years - if it isn't better than when the affair or other trauma took place - then the marriage isn't worth saving.

Sorry for the confusion.

But, he hasn't done anything to fix it. He won't fix it by making selfish demands and expecting you to make sacrifices. The problem is not that you are willing, you are very willing. The problem is he doesn't know how to fix a marriage and is apparently cherry picking the concepts in an abusive way to beat you down.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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This is HopesToChange's husband. A few months ago, after reading some of Dr. Harley's materials, I suggested that she post here. (I also bought SAA and HNHN, which we've both read.) At this point, I've lost hope for our marriage of 12 years and told HTC that I plan to file for divorce.

I've been following this thread on and off, and really do appreciate all the time and effort all the posters have made to help her through a difficult time. But given some of the recent comments -- it's not easy being called out as "dictatorial," "abusive," and a "bully" and told that I�ve done nothing to �fix� the marriage I�ve been fighting for for two years -- I thought I'd share some of my side of this story. Maybe it'll be helpful for others going through situations like ours to see my perspective. If not, the mods should feel free to delete this post.

In December 2009, I learned that HTC -- who was the point person on our finances for most of our marriage -- had been systematically and seriously overspending and lying to me about money. This had been going on for well over a year when I discovered it. It turned out we had almost $100,000 in credit card debt that I didn't know about, mostly run up by her. She denied it when I confronted her, then minimized our problems, then trickle-truthed me for over a month afterward. After self-auditing all our finances, I learned that, in addition to the credit card debt, she'd secretly liquidated a retirement account and withdrawn tens of thousands of dollars from a bank account earmarked for our quarterly tax payments in order to pay her credit card bills and keep the house of cards from falling down. Overnight, I went from having a good salary and a comfortable (though not extravagant) middle-class life to facing the prospect of losing our house, being forced into bankruptcy, and facing tax evasion charges.

I was shellshocked, but decided I needed to do everything I could to get our finances back in order. We spent four to five nights a week for almost a month going through our bills and accounts to figure out where the bleeding was happening. We froze our credit cards, cut all unnecessary expenses, and put both of ourselves on tight cash allowances. HTC continued lying to me throughout this time, and often only admitted to expenses when I put the bills in front of her. She also dragged her feet on belt-tightening; for example, she refused to sell her car (which was a major expense) for over 6 weeks, even though I offered to let her use my own, older, car and take the train to work myself.

For the year that followed, I routinely worked 10-14 hour days (plus a 3-hour round trip train commute) in the hopes that I could qualify for a bonus that would help dig us out of this hole. I cut my own expenses to almost nothing; I went nine months without buying a new piece of clothing for myself, a book, or even a can of soda from the vending machine. During this time, I became physically ill � this actually happened right after a fight with HTC over money and her continued lying that left me sick and exhausted. I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea in late July. My doctor told me that I basically hadn�t been getting any sleep for the past two months. I was, physically and mentally, a wreck, but I kept up the long hours because I wanted to put us back together financially. During this time, HTC made sacrifices as well � she got a part-time job and was on an allowance like I was (though she often overspent and asked for more money). But she also continued lying to me about money and other things, did little to meet my emotional needs when I was in a desperate state, and acted like she resented the fact that I had discovered her financial infidelity. She complained to her then-therapist about how �demanding� I was being, for things like asking her to pick me up from the train station after work (a 5-minute drive for her, a 20-minute uphill walk for me at a time that I was completely exhausted). Maybe I�m being unfair, but it felt to me like I was making tremendous sacrifices and efforts to fix a problem she�d created and receiving neglect and contempt in return.

Still, I loved her and wanted us to get back to where we�d been. I was also concerned about our niece, who�d been living with us since 2006 (we�d taken custody over her from her mother, who was a drug abuser and felon and was physically abusing and neglecting her). We started seeing a therapist together, I found and started reading sites like Marriage Builders, and I told myself that staying together and fixing our issues was best for both of us. I told HTC that I needed three things from her if our marriage was going to work: complete honesty; a commitment to work her hardest to make things right financially and emotionally between us; and a belief that she really cared about and loved me. I don�t think I was asking her for anything I hadn�t already been giving myself.

She promised, more than once, to do all these things. And each time, it didn�t happen. She continued lying�about small things and large (including money, when she had the opportunity). She was putting minimal effort into meeting my EN; even though I was working every day and often late into the night, I�d often come home to a house that was a mess, moldy food in the refrigerator, our kid�s homework not done, and HTC watching TV or playing computer games. She tuned me out when I tried to talk to her. This went on for months. I was exhausted, and felt like I was the only one making an effort to fix our marriage and get through the problems we were facing. I couldn�t understand why HTC could keep telling me how much she loved me and wanted to be with me, and doing so little to show it.

In December 2010, I decided I�d had enough. What pushed me over the edge was another lie about money from HTC. I told her that I wanted to end things. She literally begged me to give her another chance, promised she�d never lie to me again, and said she�d do anything she needed to make things right. I backed down. Things went well for about six weeks after that. Then the lies started again. And every time she lied to me, it triggered my memory of the big lies she�d told me a year before. I tried responding by controlling my outbursts and meeting her needs. Her response was to reduce her own efforts � as she later told me, when I acted nicer, it seemed to her like everything was o.k. again, and she thought she didn�t need to keep trying hard. We also tried negotiation; when finances got a little more under control, we POJA�ed giving her back control over some of her paycheck so that she could have some spending money for herself. Within a month, she�d started overspending and lying to me about money again�all in violation of what we�d negotiated and agreed to.

I kept asking her why she just couldn�t be consistently honest with me (we�d both read MB materials on honesty and the book �Radical Honesty� at this point). She alternated between telling me she didn�t have an answer, and blaming external forces that she couldn�t control � anxiety, her upbringing, etc. I was getting more and more confused about what her sticking point was, and angrier and angrier that the changes she�d promised me were never materializing.

Most of 2011 was a rollercoaster for us, but the pattern was predictable. I�d gotten most of our finances under control, so without the daily stress of that, we had some good times together again. We spent time together (typically more than 15 hours of UA/week) and there were times when I felt like I was on the verge of falling back in love with her. But then, without fail, it would happen again: she�d lie to me about something, I�d catch her in it, she�d deny it, I�d cross examine her, she�d finally admit it, I�d get angry � both because of the lie and because of her subsequent denial � she�d promise not to lie anymore, we�d have a couple of days or a week of relative peace, and then she�d lie again. Rinse and repeat. Every time this happened felt like a spit in the face, and made me feel less and less invested in our marriage.

We got to the point, late in 2011, where I could no longer believe a word she said. After over a year of individual and group therapy, after trying to work the MB program, after talking about it with me for literally dozens of hours, she still couldn�t tell my *why* she kept lying, much less make a realistic commitment to stop doing it. In fact, she�d say things like �well, doesn�t everybody lie when it�s in their interest?� and �why should I tell you the truth when you�ll just get angry?� This was exactly the mindset that led her to lie to me for over a year about her spending and our spiraling debt; I have no doubt that if she were in the position to do it, she�d lie to me about those same things again today.

At this point, I�m basically an emotional wreck. I feel like I�ve sacrificed a lot � my time, my health, my hobbies, my comfort � to get us back to financial health. And I feel like I�ve trusted in her so many times just to have that trust betrayed. Maybe from HTC�s viewpoint, I haven�t done anything to fix our problems. But that�s not what it feels like to me. If I�d left her the day after I�d found out that she�d wrecked our finances, leaving her with tens of thousands of dollars of credit cards bills in her own name that she couldn�t pay, I don�t think anyone could have faulted me. Instead, I�ve sacrificed and fought to make us whole for two years, and my reward has been a spouse who still routinely lies to me and seems unwilling to make any changes or more than minimal efforts to make things right.

MelodyLane, you said that I sounded �demanding,� �dictatorial,� and like a �bully�. Honestly, at this point, I can�t say that you�re wrong � though I don�t think I used to be that way, even after all this blew up. But after two years of this rollercoaster, I am so angry, and so frustrated, and so alone that I don�t know what else I can do. I�ve tried being supportive to HTC, avoiding LBs, and working the program *many* times over the past two years. *Every* time I�ve done that, she�s taken it as a license to slack off, reduce her own efforts, and start lying again, because when I treat her better, she figures the problem�s solved. (This is not my speculation; HTC�s *told* me this, more than once.) I engage in angry outbursts because anger has been the only thing that changes her behavior, even temporarily. I engage in disrespectful judgments because I have no respect for the way HTC has behaved and continues behaving. I feel like I�ve wasted two years of my life on someone who cares so little about me that she won't even stop lying to me. I don�t like the person I�ve become, but I�m afraid that for as long as I�m with her and she�s still behaving this way, that�s the only person I can be.

HTC lied to me at least three times in the past week: trivial lies, but blatant ones, made to my face in order to cover up her own lack of responsibility (I guess she was trying to �avoid trouble,� but if she doesn�t understand by now that her continued lies are the main source *of* trouble in our marriage, I don�t know what more I can say). Two of those lies came within hours of her promising to never lie to me again. I can�t take any more of this. The court finally scheduled an official adoption date for our niece in the next few months; I hope I can hold things together until it goes through, because I owe our niece at least that much. But after that, I cannot imagine continuing to live with the person HTC�s become, and plan to end it. I�ve been through this cycle too many times to give her �one more chance.� My tank is empty.

I apologize for this novel-length reply, but given the way the conversation�s turned, I thought I needed to add my perspective. This hasn�t been easy, and I would give everything to get back the HTC that I married, and loved for so many years. For two years, she�s been promising that, but the promises have been just words. I�m done.

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Just so that you know, I agree with everything that DH said here.

I'm glad that he posted here so that you can hear his perspective. I think that he sees me better than I see myself a lot of the time.

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I also feel like I probably have cherry picked what I've said here - I feel like it's hard to really get both perspectives in cyberspace.

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Hopeisnotenough, thanks so much for signing up to give your perspective. It puts the story in quite a different light. I would be insane with frustration if my spouse had such a history of independent behavior. That seems to be the biggest problem here. She lies to conceal her independent behavior and her life has really not been set up to keep her IB in check. As a result, nothing really changes.

From my perspective, that is the trigger for her lies. She is addicted to her IB and then lies to cover it up. Do I have that right?

Here are some things that stand out to me - and I am STILL thinking this through so please be patient if I add on here later.

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We also tried negotiation; when finances got a little more under control, we POJA�ed giving her back control over some of her paycheck so that she could have some spending money for herself. Within a month, she�d started overspending and lying to me about money again�all in violation of what we�d negotiated and agreed to.

As a recovering alcoholic, [26 years] I don't put myself in a position where I would be tempted to drink. It seems that she should never be put in a position where she has access to any great amounts of money since she has all the characteristics of a spending addict. Like you said, within a month she was overspending and lying again. She was engaging in IB without getting enthusiastic agreement from you. And lying about it.

I am curious why you enthusiastically agreed to give her access to money again when you know she can't handle it? That doesn't make sense to me.

As far as the issue of sacrifice, you can see what that has done for you. It has created enormous resentment for YOU created an entitlement attitude in her. This is what Dr Harley calls a renters mentality, where sacrifices are made and scores are kept.["you owe me!] When the score is not even, demands and even abuse are typically employed. Sacrifice is a basic characteristic of unconditional love, which Dr Harley speaks of here:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love.
here

Does that sound familiar?

In other words, you cared for her while she made marriage wrecking choices. Do you see how that has led to neglect and abuse from her? What would have happened if she had to pay all that money back on her own, though? Would she have been motivated to change her behavior? If SHE did not have you to bail her out? And what if she were given no access to money? She would have either learned to control her IB on her own or you would have been free of her...

It doesn't surprise me a bit that she doesn't demonstrate love to you. I would be surprised if she felt love for you because of your lovebusters. I would wager that the romantic love in this marriage is dead, wouldn't you? If her IB is triggering your anger, and other lovebusters, she naturally would not feel love. Her IB and your angry outbursts/disrespectful judgments has caused such hostility in your marriage, that it would be impossible to fall in love. The lovebank for her, too, is far in the red.

What if her life were set up in a way that she COULD not engage in IB? For example, if she spends too much, then she has no access to money. And if she doesn't spend, she has nothing to lie about. Pretty soon she would get out of the habit of spending.

I am still thinking and I also think this would be a good case for Dr Harley to look at.


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I can only add that I think it is a HORRIBLE thing to adopt a child knowing you will break up her family immediately after you get her one.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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*Every* time I�ve done that, she�s taken it as a license to slack off, reduce her own efforts, and start lying again, because when I treat her better, she figures the problem�s solved.

And every time she does that, you take it as a license to slack off, reduce your efforts and start the Disrespectful Judgements (DJs) and Angry Outbursts (AOs) again.

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I engage in angry outbursts because anger has been the only thing that changes her behavior, even temporarily. I engage in disrespectful judgments because I have no respect for the way HTC has behaved and continues behaving. I feel like I�ve wasted two years of my life on someone who cares so little about me that she won't even stop lying to me.
Perhaps it's she who has wasted two years of her life with someone who cares so little for her that he will not protect her from his AOs and DJs. Which are abuse, btw. Lying is horrible, and a lovebuster. But AOs and DJs are emotional abuse.

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I don�t like the person I�ve become, but I�m afraid that for as long as I�m with her and she�s still behaving this way, that�s the only person I can be.
Not true. You control you. Telling yourself that this is the only person you can be around her is giving yourself a way out of having to control yourself.


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BTW, Hopeisnotenough, you might want to start your own thread so that people can advise you and your wife separately. We generally advise husbands and wives to keep to their own threads here.


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MelodyLane,

Thanks for your response. I'd certainly be interested in hearing your further thoughts, though at this point I feel like there's not much that could change my mind. A few further thoughts of my own:

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She is addicted to her IB and then lies to cover it up. Do I have that right?

I guess that depends on how you define IB. If you mean "behavior she engages in without me there," that's never been a major trigger point. She has her friends, I have mine, we do lots of things together but also sometimes apart. Neither of us really has a problem with that. (Part of that might be because neither of us has ever suffered through an affair; we have plenty of problems, but that's not one of them.) Even the overspending wasn't mainly for "her" things; a lot of it was by her, but for (overly extravagant) gifts for family and friends, needless expenses on our dogs (it sounds silly, but this sucked up *thousands and thousands* of dollars -- who knew?!?), etc.

If you define IB to mean "self-centered behavior," then yes, I do think that's a major problem. I feel like a lot of the lying starts with the premise "I know best, and you don't need to know what's really going on, because I can handle it better." With the money, for example, HTC told me that she thought she'd somehow figure out a way to get it under control and -- because she was "better" with money than I am -- she didn't need to tell me about it. I feel like this kind of behavior is still continuing; this past week, she justified one of her little lies (about a window in our basement that she broke) by saying, "I was planning to fix it before you found out anyway, so why should I cause conflict by telling you about my screw-up?" This drove me crazy, because it sounded like *exactly* the kind of upside-down reasoning that got us $100k in debt.

I honestly think that I'd be ok with a decent bit of IB if she was just honest and upfront with me about it. The lies are what drive me nuts. To paraphrase what someone said about Watergate, it's not the IB, it's the cover-up.

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I am curious why you enthusiastically agreed to give her access to money again when you know she can't handle it? That doesn't make sense to me.

This was an experiment we tried in 2011 after our finances had stabilized and I'd already paid off most of our debts (and all the back taxes).

HTC works part time and brings in about 20% of our income -- significant, but something we could have lived without at that point if we needed. We agreed to let her deposit her paycheck into a bank account (all debit, NO credit!), contribute her portion to shared expenses like the mortgage, school tuition, etc., and then use what was left for spending money in lieu of an "allowance." So, if she had something left over after groceries, etc., she could save it or use it to buy something she needed. I'd be able to check her accounts at any time.

I felt like that would give her a chance to show that she could be financially responsible (even in a limited sense), but our exposure would be capped because she wouldn't have enough money under her control to create a major problem. That's how I could enthusiastically agree to it, at least on a trial basis.

Like I said, within a month and a half, she'd overspent and asked her parents to send her money to "cover her losses" without telling me. I discovered this when I looked over the bank records, and that was the end of that experiment.

At this point, we've gone back to me having full control over the finances with HTC getting a cash allowance each week to cover household and personal expenses. I *hate* exercising this kind of control -- it makes me feel like a parent rather than a husband -- but it seems like the only sensible option at this point. We may need to open things up financially in anticipation of the divorce, but I worry what will happen when we do.

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As far as the issue of sacrifice, you can see what that has done for you. It has created enormous resentment for YOU created an entitlement attitude in her. This is what Dr Harley calls a renters mentality, where sacrifices are made and scores are kept.["you owe me!] When the score is not even, demands and even abuse are typically employed.

So this is something I have trouble grasping. The sacrifices I made to get our financial house in order weren't things that HTC *demanded* from me; I did them because: (1) someone needed to deal with the situation, and (2) I needed to protect my family.

I guess one of the things that bothers me is that, even after all that, I don't feel like HTC has any similar desire to sacrifice much on her end -- whether to make amends for what she did, to make my life easier during a really difficult time, or just because she wants to give something back to her husband (and child).

I agree that demanding sacrifice creates resentment. But I've been waiting two years for her to do *something* -- without a demand from me! -- that would really show me that she was sorry and that she cares for me. What I've seen her do (and yes, maybe I'm being unfair here) feels like the bare minimum she thinks she can get away with without me blowing up at her.

What's the point of being married to someone if they're never willing to put themselves out to protect you or make you happy? I've done that for her, and I feel like all I've gotten back is resentment. Why should I stay married if I'm doing all the giving? I guess neither of us could give, but then why be married at all? It'd be nice if there were a win-win solution to everything, but that's not always the case (which is one reason why I think that POJA, while an valuable exercise, isn't the cure-all that MB sometimes seems to make it out to be). Sometimes one side has to give, and I feel like I've done a lot of giving while getting little back in return.

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What if her life were set up in a way that she COULD not engage in IB? For example, if she spends too much, then she has no access to money. And if she doesn't spend, she has nothing to lie about. Pretty soon she would get out of the habit of spending.

This is what we've done with money, and yes, now HTC rarely lies about money -- because she has nothing to lie about. But what about the rest of her life? I want her to stop lying because she respects me enough to tell me the truth and because it's the right thing to do -- not because I've taken away so much freedom that she no longer has anything she can lie about. That really would be dictatorial, and I feel like sadly that's where we've been headed at times.

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CMWI:

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I can only add that I think it is a HORRIBLE thing to adopt a child knowing you will break up her family immediately after you get her one.

This comment really hit home, and it's one of the things that's been tearing me up inside. I agree that breaking up after the adoption is horrible, but (assuming divorce is going to happen), the only other options are:

1. My niece stays with me after divorce, and suffers all the trauma of a broken family, but without the legal permanence of adoption;

2. She gets sent back to her mother, who's still involved in drugs and crime and is now married to a career violent felon who the court's already barred from contact with my niece; or

3. She gets sent to foster care.

I think having some legal stability and being adopted by me (even without HTC as a fulltime parent) is better than any of those other options.

I guess I could just try and gut out a deeply, acutely unhappy marriage for *another* two years -- or a lifetime -- for my niece's sake. If I though that HTC *would* change, I'd do it; that's really why I've stayed around for as long as I have, and why I'm going to stay around till the adoption's final. But I don't think she will change, and I don't have the energy to keep trying. And my niece deserves better than two parents who can't stand each other.

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HiNE:

Please do start your own thread and don't post on your wife's.

Would the two of you be willing to talk to Dr. Harley directly? You could find out what has been lacking as far as being able to get his Marriage Builders concepts working for the two of you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Prisca,

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Perhaps it's she who has wasted two years of her life with someone who cares so little for her that he will not protect her from his AOs and DJs. Which are abuse, btw. Lying is horrible, and a lovebuster. But AOs and DJs are emotional abuse.

Perhaps you're right, and I'm the bad guy and the abuser here. If you can read this thread and think that I've "cared so little" for HTC over the past two years, then I doubt I can say anything that will change your mind. Mea culpa. I don't want to be an abuser any more, and that's why I'm ending the marriage. We both deserve better.

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BTW, Hopeisnotenough, you might want to start your own thread so that people can advise you and your wife separately. We generally advise husbands and wives to keep to their own threads here.

I know this sounds dismissive, but I'm not really looking for advice at this point. I chimed in on this thread to provide my perspective and hopefully give some context for others in our situation who might read it. Take it for what it's worth -- I certainly don't claim to be an objective, unbiased observer.

I responded to MelodyLane and CMWI because they took the time and effort to share their thoughts and I wanted to acknowledge that. If someone else thinks these issues are important enough for their own thread, they should feel free to start one, and maybe I'll chime in again. But I'm not interested in starting that conversation.

Since it seems like I'm breaking an unwritten rule here, I'll stop posting in this thread.

Last edited by HopeIsNotEnough; 01/03/12 11:35 PM.
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Some Harley quotes on how bad sacrifice is for marriage. I would just point out the obvious and that is that sacrifice has not made you happy or made your marriage strong. It has greatly weakned your marriage. Same with this guy below, bluesman, who challenged Dr Harley on this point. I am still responding to your post but wanted you to read this for now:

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Bluesman wrote:
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I disagree with the MB opinion that sacrifice does not tend to create appreciation. My father worked 3 jobs to support our family and my mother always took care of my father, my sisters, and myself before satisfying her own wants and needs. I have profound appreciation and love for these efforts. I have seen many successful marriages that involve sacrifice in raising autistic and handicapped children. In my marital experience during the first few years, I sacrificed enthusiastically to try to attain a peaceful and loving sanctuary for our marriage. These efforts failed because it seems that the more I gave, more was expected of me. It seems the priority of our marriage is that her needs (and all her wants, there is a difference between wants and needs) were met when she wanted and how she wanted TO THE LETTER. Otherwise the destructive cycles continue. She has always had the freedom to do what she wants. Should one not show gratitude for this and all the other blessings the good Lord has bestowed upon us?

Please W, be truthful. And please please be honest who has given and who has taken in our marriage. And please please take responsibility for your part in curtailing the giver and empowering the taker.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley's answer
If sacrifice was all you say it was, we wouldn't be talking about it. A sacrifice is a unilateral gift, something that doesn't require appreciation because it's given unconditionally. My point is that, while there is a place for sacrifice in life, in marriage it tends to be sore spot. When one spouse gives to the other sacrificially, even if it's done enthusiastically, it tends to be unappreciated. If appreciation is required, it's no longer unconditional or sacrifical. Something is expected in return that makes the act worth doing, which takes it out of the realm of sacrifice.

Your sacrifice is unappreciated and is a sore spot with you. Just like Harley says. And since her appreciation is required, it is no longer sacrificial. And you are full of resentment.

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The secret to understanding your spouse is to think like your spouse's Taker. It's easy to appeal to your spouse's Giver. "If she really loves me, she'll let me do this." or "He'll be thoughtful enough to agree with that, I'm sure." But lasting peace must be forged with your spouse's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your spouse's most selfish instincts. At the same time, it must also appeal to your own selfish instincts.

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest the "I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time" solution. For example, imagine that you want to go out with your friends after work, leaving your spouse with the children. So to arrive at an enthusiastic agreement for that thoughtless activity, you suggest that you take the children another night so that your spouse can go out with his or her friends.

What you're really proposing here is that each of you will sacrifice so that the other can have fun. The problem with that arrangement is that you are agreeing to behavior that makes one of you unhappy whenever the other is happy, and as I've said earlier, once you have made an agreement, it can easily turn into a habit.

The Giver and Taker suggest those kinds of win-lose solutions because they don't understand win-win solutions. [b]Their concept of fairness is that if you are both suffering equally, that's fair. My view of negotiation is that by the time you are finished you should have arrived at a solution where neither of you suffers. And each part of the solution should not require either of you to sacrifice so that the other can be happy. [/b]


One last point: Whenever a conflict arises, keep in mind the importance of depositing as many love units as possible while avoiding withdrawals. In other words, use the opportunity to find a solution that will make your spouse happy, and avoid solutions that make either of you unhappy. here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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From Dr Harley's book, Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Even the overspending wasn't mainly for "her" things; a lot of it was by her, but for (overly extravagant) gifts for family and friends, needless expenses on our dogs (it sounds silly, but this sucked up *thousands and thousands* of dollars -- who knew?!?), etc.

Yes, this is what we call independent behavior.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I define Independent Behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. here

And this is the crux of your problem, from my perspective. She does whatever she wants and then lies about it to avoid conflict. She is a conflict avoider liar. The dishonesty is her reaction to the IB. She is probably addicted to spending and addicts love their source so much that they lie about it.

Her spending is one of many independent behaviors.

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So this is something I have trouble grasping. The sacrifices I made to get our financial house in order weren't things that HTC *demanded* from me; I did them because: (1) someone needed to deal with the situation, and (2) I needed to protect my family.

I guess one of the things that bothers me is that, even after all that, I don't feel like HTC has any similar desire to sacrifice much on her end -- whether to make amends for what she did, to make my life easier during a really difficult time, or just because she wants to give something back to her husband (and child).

I agree that demanding sacrifice creates resentment. But I've been waiting two years for her to do *something* -- without a demand from me! -- that would really show me that she was sorry and that she cares for me. What I've seen her do (and yes, maybe I'm being unfair here) feels like the bare minimum she thinks she can get away with without me blowing up at her.

Ok, it is not "demanded" sacrifice that causes resentment. It is making sacrifices that causes resentment. As anyone can see by reading your post. And as you have learned the hard way. Your post demonstrates EXACTLY why Dr Harley teaches NOT to sacrifice. You are resentful and angry about your sacrifice because you are keeping score. Renters keep score and they become very angry when the score is uneven. She "owes" you.

She does not make amends by making similar sacrifices, though. Amends would come by changing her behavior and doing things that would restore the love in your marriage. Making amends would come from protecting you from her lovebusters and her destructive behavior. Amends certainly will not be acheived by making sacrifices.

Has your sacrifice restored love to your marriage? No, it has made you resentful. And demanding. Be assured that her making sacrifices will have the same result.

It has prevented you from getting the love you want in your marriage.

Like Harley told bluesman:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"If sacrifice was all you say it was, we wouldn't be talking about it. A sacrifice is a unilateral gift, something that doesn't require appreciation because it's given unconditionally. My point is that, while there is a place for sacrifice in life, in marriage it tends to be sore spot. When one spouse gives to the other sacrificially, even if it's done enthusiastically, it tends to be unappreciated. If appreciation is required, it's no longer unconditional or sacrifical. Something is expected in return that makes the act worth doing, which takes it out of the realm of sacrifice."

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What's the point of being married to someone if they're never willing to put themselves out to protect you or make you happy? I've done that for her, and I feel like all I've gotten back is resentment. Why should I stay married if I'm doing all the giving?
]

As you can see,, doing this yourself has not made you happy. Making yourself miserable by making sacrifices has not brought you happiness. You got resentment.

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It'd be nice if there were a win-win solution to everything, but that's not always the case (which is one reason why I think that POJA, while an valuable exercise, isn't the cure-all that MB sometimes seems to make it out to be). Sometimes one side has to give, and I feel like I've done a lot of giving while getting little back in return.

The POJA is a very small part of the Marriage Builders program. It is not a cafeteria plan where its parts can be cherry picked. It does not work at all that way. The POJA cannot compensate for destructive marriage behaviors such as your lovebusters, her lovebusters and your practice of sacrifice. The POJA is a disaster in a marriage where the love has been eroded by such destructive behavior.

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This is what we've done with money, and yes, now HTC rarely lies about money -- because she has nothing to lie about. But what about the rest of her life? I want her to stop lying because she respects me enough to tell me the truth and because it's the right thing to do -- not because I've taken away so much freedom that she no longer has anything she can lie about. That really would be dictatorial, and I feel like sadly that's where we've been headed at times.

But don't you see that by her handing the money over to you, she GAINS freedom? She was not "free" when she had access to money, she was in a hell of her own making. Handing the money over to you has freed her from that. There is nothing "dictatorial" about that.

I am a recovering alcoholic who does not drink. Did my husband take some "freedom" from me by demanding I NEVER drink again 26 years ago? Hell no. I gained my freedom by not drinking.

Your wife is the same way. Her IB and her dishonesty has made her life hell. So anything you can do to help her fashion her life to avoid that is freeing to her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I joined this board in 2001 after my H had an affair. When I came here, there wasn't much talk about Marriage Builders so I was a little slow on really understanding Marriage Builders.

I had been here for 6 years when I went to the Marriage Builders seminar. On the first day there, they identified a MAJOR problem in my marriage: my independent behavior. I scored at the very top of the limit on the personality test. Like your wife, I was used to doing what I wanted when I wanted and didn't feel like I needed to answer to anyone.

That is very much like your wife. Her issue is IB just like me. My H used to have angry outbursts and make demands just like you. And I couldnt' stand his [censored] for a week when he did that. But when I stopped my IB, he stopped having AO's and stopped making demands. This dynamic changed everything in our marriage. Suddenly the tension went away and we began to relax and enjoy each other. It has gotten better and better every year since.

It was getting professional guidance frmo the Harleys that changed every thing.

And that is what I am suggesting you do. This is the ONLY program whose goal is to restore the romantic love in your marriage. And it really does work.

Why don't you try that before you throw in the towel? When do-it-yourself doesn't work its time to get professional guidance. Your marriage very well could be saved if you used this program properly. I have seen them turn around couples that hated each other. And if your wife cannot change her behavior I guarantee you Dr Harley would tell you to divorce her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I am a recovering alcoholic who does not drink. Did my husband take some "freedom" from me by demanding I NEVER drink again 26 years ago? Hell no. I gained my freedom by not drinking.

Your wife is the same way. Her IB and her dishonesty has made her life hell. So anything you can do to help her fashion her life to avoid that is freeing to her.

I'm wondering about this. And I'm not sure if I can even word this correctly. Obviously your husband cannot stop you from driving to the bar. You choose not to drink. But the only way to keep the OP from spending is to physically only give her so much money, give her a preloaded spending card, etc. Do you think this would work before it became viewed as controlling? Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you're saying about minimzing her chances and protecting her. But at what point should she not choose to engage in those behaviors just like you choose not to drink?

My dad is a recovering alcoholic and my mom is a recovering spendaholic. They both had to go a support group (dad went to AA, not sure about mom). In the end, the decision was that they had to choose not to drink/spend. Mom had to learn and force herself to stay on a budget.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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I am completely confused by your question. crazy You seem to be just repeating exactly what I said.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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