Ellie, I would NOT go for him living in the back bedroom either for 6 months. For him to stay there and hang around after refusing to work on the marriage would be a deal breaker for me. I would be packing his bags. Why wait around and volunteer for a death of a thousand cuts?

I have been spying but he did get a new phone a couple days ago and I haven't had the chance to get eblaster on it yet. I'm trying but now with this recent setback, I wonder if he will let me look at his phone because he will probably say "what's the point?"

As for ow, he sent her a Cease and Desist by registered mail a few weeks ago after she started harassing him again via email. She can access his email through his company website no matter how many times it gets changed. She said she was going to hurt his family and destroy us to get back at him. He thinks she's a horrible person given her behavior since being dumped so while he said he understands my concerns, she is not a threat to our M. He said he didn't leave for her when he had the chance and certainly wouldn't choose her over me ever. He claims he doesn't want to see, speak to her or hear from her in any way ever again which is why he sent the C and D.

I don't think this is about her at all. He said he's had doubts about my ability to forgive and move on from the beginning.

Truthfully, I have my doubts as well. He's caused so much damage to me and my kids and seems "lazy" about cleaning up his mess. This is making me lose respect for him rapidly.

This is what I told him. It's too painful for me to have him here if he's not working on our M. He insists he doesn't want to leave until our eldest graduates. I said he needs to leave immediately and he got angry and said he will get legal advice first then.

Then he's back to calling me honey and telling me it's all for the best for me that we divorce.

I haven't spoken to him today because he's still in bed. He claims he's depressed over all the pain he's caused and that's why he keeps sleeping so late after we have a difficult discussion.

I agree with this totally, 100%! Ever heard the phrase "without a vision, the people perish?" You guys need a solid plan to work towards. Goals. Something that makes solid sense for him.

I guess I keep expecting him to come up with a plan. I try to follow MB but I'm not always successful. I'm still reeling some days and it feels like he's waiting for me to fix it and I suppose I want him to fix it.

I think I have been meeting his need for SF and affection above and beyond. SF everyday for 2.5 months, sometimes more than once a day. A couple times 3. He said this was the biggest reason he used to justify the A. I wouldn't have SF for him for 6 months at a time sometimes or more (which is true) so he found someone who would. I wasn't attracted to him during that time period because he frequently DJ'ed me and cared only about his needs.


We were supposed to go out for dinner last night and I said I wasn't up to it and then he found me crying and suddenly we're getting a D because it's what I truly want and I just don't know it yet. I was honest with him about having doubts sometimes because I thought he wanted me to be O&H and now he's throwing it back in my face. Should I lie when he asks if I have doubts about recovery?

He also mentioned last night that I think he's disgusting again. He won't let that one go. And I did call him a sleazeb*g when he told me (weeks ago) that skanky ow met his need for admiration because she thought he was wonderful. I got angry and I reacted by saying "Oh so she thinks a cheating sleazebag is wonderful? What is wonderful about a man who would cheat on his W rather than deal with the problems in their M?!" SO these are the things he remembers and focuses on. Why doesn't he focus on my efforts rather than my mistakes? I mean after what he did to me and to our children, did he expect me to be calm and loving all the time during recovery. I'm doing my best. Sigh.

Last week, he said he loved me so much and I was the love of his life and he would be devastated without me. This week, he thinks it's best we divorce.

I am going to look into counselling with the Harleys next because I have no idea where to go from here. If he's not on board then I guess it's Plan D.

Ok, but your ability to forgive is entirely contingent upon HIM. Not you. What is his ability to EARN your forgiveness? See, you and your husband have this all backwards. "Forgiveness" is not a welfare entitlement for selfish waywards. They are not food stamps. Forgiveness is something to be earned, not an entitlement.

So when he says he "doubts your ability to forgive" him, he is just saying he doubts his ability to EARN it.


This makes me believe he is seeing her or speaking to her again. The fact that he says she is no "threat" tells me that he is trying to divert your attention.


Do you typicall ASK to see his phone? Did he know you had eblaster on the last one? And why did he get a new phone?

Frankly, your husband has all the signs of a fogged out wayward who is still in an affair. If not with this ho, perhaps a new one.

Does he not agree that he was a sleazebag when he was having his affair with the OW? Your H is VERY WAYWARD and there is something wrong here. See, when a WH is serious about recovery, he shows remorse. Your H is cocky. He indicts you for making truthful statements about his affair. That is WAYWARD THINKING.

If I told my H he was a sleazebag when he had an affair, he would agree. BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

Your H wants you to "forgive" him even though he has not repented. He does not even admit he was a sleazebag. So how can you forgive? I think he is either in contact now or he has started a new affair. He is foggy and wayward for some reason.

How can I work on in when he made it clear yesterday that it was OVER? I won't beg.

You have children, EB. Were you NEVER forced to take from them a toy or other implement and then to endure their pouting and spite-filled performances?

Well, WH is going through the same withdrawal. He enjoyed playing with his alternate toy, while still maintaining the benefits of having "hearth and home" awaiting him at other times. So now he no longer gets to do the "horizontal hustle" with skanky, but he's pretty sure he screwed up his main support system as well. We see this A LOT here, but usually the genders are reversed - with the WW doing the "woe is me" act, and the BH asking "What the HELL do I do now?"

What we do in those cases is urge the BH to suck it up, and establish a serious Plan A. You'd not be "begging" him to get his head out from his rectum, but you'd be presenting him with an attractive home to come back to. Plan A's are not highly recommended to BWs such as yourself, because......it's frickin' HARD, and most BWs can't maintain it long enough to effect the change.

Think about it. If you don't think you can pull it off, (imagine 4 - 6 weeks), or truthfully do not care to make the huge effort, then pull the pin on the Plan B grenade as previously advised.

Has your husband resumed his affair again because he decided - once again - that your "marriage is over?" Apparently, having an affair is right there on his list of entitlements right under his "forgiveness" entitlement. He feels entitled to have an affair if he makes a personal decision that the marriage is over.

Has that thinking changed at all?

I completely agree and this is what I've told him. He thinks he has been meeting my needs for affection and O&H and we have been spending a lot of time together. He is very affectionate. Compliments me often and is acting loving until he thinks I'm withdrawing and then he's negative again.

Every time we have a nice time together (like dinner, shopping, walks, etc.) he tears up at some point in the day and apologizes again. He said he wishes he just would have had to courage to talk to me rather than make the worst mistake of his life. So some days he seems very in and very remorseful but I'm dealing with triggers still and if I'm down, he gets down. He should be helping me. Not waiting for me to make him feel safe.

What makes him feel this is hopeless? ARe you bringing up the affair over and over again?

I honestly don't think so. I have a VAR in his car and he's still working from home. We are together most of the time or he's with our kids.

It was me that brought up the skank as I asked him if she would ever be in his life, regardless if we were together and he said never. I asked if she was a threat to a marriage so that was my word and he said she was not.

He's made it clear ow was second best and I believe him because I withdrew from our M first. I was even contemplating divorce so when he says he was with her only because I didn't want him, I do believe him because I know how I was treating him and the state of our M prior to and during the A. He said he always only wanted me and she was the first women that showed him so attention. When she wanted him to chose, he picked her because I hadn't had SF with him in a year and he thought I had no romantic love left for him. Then when he asked for a D and I said maybe we should stay together. He was shocked that I wanted to save the M because he honestly thought I would agree to D. That's when he started trying to end the A and her threats started.

So I believe him when he says he prefers me over her. I'm a lot more physically attractive then skankho and he said that he always compared her to me and wished it was me that wanted him. Like I said, I know the state of our M before the A and I actually didn't care that he was no longer bothering me for SF so I truly didn't want him. It was the threat of D that shocked me into acknowledging our problems and working on my half of the marriage problems.

As for the phone, his kept shutting off randomly and was damaged so he needed a new one. No, he did know about eblaster and yes I ask to see his phone sometimes. I also blocked ow's cell on his phone (which I never told him) and every time I check it's still blocked.

Yes.

He just woke up so I will be back later.

I understand. This is an emotional nightmare. I remember it well, what it was like for me. Just you following the plan will help you heal yourself, but it won't heal your marriage unless you are both working it. Neither of you will fix it on your own, or just waiting for the other to do it. You need to have a good solid recovery plan that you are both working TOGETHER. Building a relationship takes 2 people and rebuilding still takes 2 people.... and a lot of work... You need a plan of action so you aren't hanging curtains before the walls are finished (if you know what I mean).


This is why the plan for recovery is so important. See, the reason he had an affair wasn't because there was no SF everyday, it was because he had poor boundaries and made poor choices. Part of working a good plan is good communication. You need to sit down and discuss your needs and his needs and work on how to meet those mutually without the other feeling used.



I have a feeling this is much the way you did things in the pre-A marriage? He knows (or thinks) that you don't want a D and throws it out there as a way of manipulating you. I think what you really need to decide is if you are going to work on your marriage and focus on that. As hard as this sounds, you are going to have to work through your emotions a good 6 months before you begin to see a turning point in recovery.


Use this as an opportunity to talk with him. The feelings of disgust can be overcome. You can't DJ him and expect him to not feel anything. That's realistic. You guys need to learn to talk about things in a civil manner without threats and without hurting each other. It is not recovering when you do this. If you guys are having trouble communicating about things, get a notebook and write them out. Let it sit for a bit and then go back to it and review it. Make sure there aren't any DJ's in there and then let the other person read it and respond back in the notebook until you can speak in a beneficial way to each other.



Counseling is a great idea. Call them ASAP.

CV

Ellie, if you are bringing up the affair over and over again, this is a big part of the problem. It keeps you triggered and makes him feel hopeless. Here is what Harley told another BW who kept bringing it up:

He admits he was a sleazeb*g during his A. His concern is that I still look at him like that and that a part of me always will...

Ellie, I would check into counseling with Steve Harley. AND...agree to stop bringing up the affair to your husband. Would that make him feel better? There is no good reason to toss out the marriage if you are both committed to recovery. I think he might just be extremely frustrated.

I have been trying to meet his EN's and looking back, I was plan A'ing for 4 months in essence before I even knew about the A. I'm assuming that's partly why he ended the A before d-day.

As for now, yes I haven't exactly been the poster girl for MB. I'm still obsessed about the A and probably bring it up too often but I still have questions. When do you have enough details about the A to let it go? I know who, where, when and how often. He's told me the reasons he used to justify it. He's admitted it was horribly wrong and that his reasons were not an excuse. He admitted to a sense of entitlement and making very poor choices which I didn't deserve regardless of the lack of SF. He admitted he buried his love for me and that the reality of D scared him which is why skanky got the boot. Is there anything else I need to know?

I know who, where, when and how often. He's told me the reasons he used to justify it. He's admitted it was horribly wrong and that his reasons were not an excuse. He admitted to a sense of entitlement and making very poor choices which I didn't deserve regardless of the lack of SF. He admitted he buried his love for me and that the reality of D scared him which is why skanky got the boot. Is there anything else I need to know?

Yes, you need to know why, knowing all that, you still bring up the affair to the detriment of your marriage's outlook!

EB, a few weeks ago I spent some time putting together a conceptual framework about why some BSs torture their WSs emotionally, when doing so is very much in opposition to their own best interests:

Forgiven? Not yet!

I didn't know at the time why I felt compelled tp do it, but I think it might be very important to you now. Read it, and let me know if it speaks to you.

Well I hope that thinking has changed. We have spoken about it and he said it was an immature, mean and a terrible thing to do, and that I didn't deserve to have my choices stolen. He told me his sense of entitlement was about his ego and how I wronged him but that he will never allow himself to be that angry or arrogant again, nor will he be alone with any women (aside from relatives) other than me. He does understand about boundaries but also says he only ever had poor boundaries with women during the time he met skankho. He was willing to take a poly to prove there has never been any other A's or any inappropriate R's with other women at any time during our M.

He said he did some reading on A's after he asked me for a D because he had doubts about skankyho the entire time. He said it never really felt right. After doing some reading, he said he understood that the feelings of "wrongness" were not only because he still loved me but because it was a fake relationship based on lies and deceit and that the excuses people used to justify A's were also horribly wrong.

He claims he thinks very differently now then he did when he was justifying his A but how do I really know? He has read about A's as I can tell by what he says. I know he's read HNHN and got some of his info from that book. BUT how do I really truly know he's changed other than what he says? Because he's certainly negative about recovery at times.