I feel for you. I chose a life partner who is very laid back and (seemingly) content to let me be the one in charge of many aspects of our family life. We've had many resentments on both sides.

Your situation sounds complicated beyond the EA. I'm pretty new to MB so I can't advise you well on that stuff but I can let you know that I have a lot of compassion for you and your situation.

I was on the radio program today. Dr. Bill recommended separation. I'm still figuring it all out.

After posting above, I got to listen to the last segment (can't stream at work). It was really helpful. I know that I can and will get my emotions under control, and work on those aspects that I can deal with, and have to accept that there is only so much I can do.

I must say, having had my first marriage end in infidelity, I felt so pained that in an long drawn out instant, my husband could so dramatically shift my life, stealing half of my holidays with my kids. I had thought and hoped that I would at least, be able to one day have a better marriage, and tried to learn what I could about what I could bring to the marriage to make it work. While I now see that by not being clear about my needs, I only ended up hurting our marriage, because the resentments I built up overflowed with my emotional outbursts, I also see that this is, in some ways, a predictable response. I'm going to have to think a lot more about what Dr. Bill said about single mothers not entering into another relationship. It may be the bitter pill that I'm choking on right now.

Can someone offer some suggestions? I'm not really sure if SAA is the right forum, and Dr. Bill didn't seem to think that the early emotional affair my husband had or his ADD were really the biggest problems in our marriage. I am feeling pretty alone right now, and would love to go through this with guidance and support. There is a lot to process and a lot for me to work through.

Desperate. Ohmigosh. I wish I could hug you right now because I am very concerned after reading this. hon, you are whistling past the graveyard. This is not good. The only reason he agreed to spend time with you was to throw you a crumb so you wouldn't object too loudly to the "separation." It won't be long before he is finding fast excuses to get out of that. There is no committment here. There is no there there. There is nothing here that should make you hopeful. And I am so very sorry to have to say that.

Please follow Dr Harley's advice and get out of there. Get a separation by moving away. And I don't mean a pretend separation where you and the kids stay in the wrecked guest house while he sleeps in the other house and runs around like an alley cat in heat all night. You can't endure that. He will beat you into a nervous breakdown and it will happen fast. I heard it coming in your voice, my dear. Please get out of there. Dont' let your wishful thinking lead you to believe there is something where there is really nothing.

Please make plans to rent that townhouse and get out of there.

I am posting your discussion with Dr Harley so others can listen:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Thanks, MelodyLane, for your post. With your experience and wisdom, it means a lot that you also recognize the emotional danger I'm in and support my recognizing inherent human needs over relationship needs at this point.

On Monday, in addition to being on the radio program, I also met with our marriage counselor by myself. Husband came home last Thursday from his private session with her and said he wanted to separate, so I've been really curious what happened. When I told her he said that afterwards, she was floored, and I brought her up to date about the recent dishonesties (bank account, direct deposit, etc.) I asked for some feedback about what he shared...did it shed light on what his complaints/issues are, what his willingness is? She said he was describing my angry outbursts, and that they did sound like someone with a temper. I admitted it again, I'm from an Irish family, and both my parents blow up, as well as my sister. I do it less than any of them, but I have my moments. I also shared with her that the one he was probably describing (the worst, about a year ago) came when he had made a mistake about when the kids' christmas program was at school, and we were late (again!), and he had the paper with the info in his car, just "misplaced." I went out to the car and dug through it to find the paper (that our daughter's teacher personally handed to him when he picked them up from school) buried under a pile of his garbage, and then we had five minutes to get there, get the kids there (they were supposed to arrive 15 minutes early, which meant all the parents would be there and all the seats taken). That's my biggest lovebuster, and I said it pretty well at the time, "I'm tired of this, I'm considering a divorce, I am not going to let your incompetence interfere with my ability to participate in important things in my kids' lives." Okay, I yelled it then. And that's why this thing recently with our daughter's soccer party is just so distressing for me, even though it isn't the biggest deal in and of itself, it's such a pattern in our lives. Last year, my husband was a stay at home dad with a 3 year old, that was all his responsibility in the world, and he couldn't keep track of the slightest things. And he blames that on ADD, but he is able to keep track of meetings that are important to HIM, just not things important to the kids and me.

After hearing all of these things, as well as me showing our marriage counselor the six pages of printouts of his searches about borderline personality disorder, she was in agreement that for my mental health, I needed the separation.

So, all these people giving me permission to do what I needed to do...was a blessing beyond belief. I have felt so free and at peace. I am sooooo much more relaxed. I have also been setting boundaries about his access to this guesthouse we're in, like on Thanksgiving, I said I wanted to spend the morning cooking with the kids (huge positive memories from my childhood and a tradition already with my kids), and wanted that time without him, so he basically had to start living the life he's choosing, alone. I think it's starting to sink in. I've also made no additional attempts to "spend time with him" in the evening, because if he doesn't want to, it just pains me, and I don't need that pain. And I bought myself a bottle of wine for Thanksgiving I rarely drank, but because my husband was a recovering alcoholic when I met him (now 10 years sober), I haven't had any alcohol in the house. So that was a big taking-care-of-myself step, and felt great, I was so relaxed after a couple glasses of wine and slept better, too!! When it was time to eat, he came over, helped a bit getting things set up, and cleaned up afterwards, which was nice, and his toast was that he was thankful we could all be together.

Finally, I figured out that when our tax refund comes, it will be enough to fund having someone else do the work on the house. So, now I've pretty much mentally set myself up where I don't need to worry about him and his choices, where I'm not waiting for him, but living my life, and I am feeling better (I know it's a process, and that these mental boundaries are things I'll have to keep up on a regular basis). Right now, I think the plan will be that we stay here, in part because this house is in my name and I don't want to leave it, and because it keeps things the most normal for the kids. But I plan on going to Chicago to visit my relatives over Christmas, and he can come along if he wants to and makes it work at his job, otherwise, it will be my first year with our son (or, if we manage to reconcile next year, it will be a year that he missed christmas with our kids because of his poor choices).

BTW, on Thanksgiving he made no progress on the house, but he's started elaborate Christmas presents for the kids, although they are all in the planning stages, and certainly not things they need. He doesn't get that the best present he could give his family is a home to live in. Although he's never given the kids (or me, for that matter) presents in years past, so it's sort of a big step in that direction, it's really just an excuse not to do the work that needs to be done. I'm not saying anything, just reflecting on it.

Last night he asked me after the kids were asleep if I would spend time with him the next night (tonight), watch a show or something. I said okay. I'm thinking about that. I'm almost where at this point, unless he's willing to commit to our relationship, it does no good to try and spend time with him, it just puts me emotionally on the line. But maybe he's recognizing the value of UA?

I'm sorry but what are your plans exactly? Are you separating? Are you staying together? I know that you said that you aren't going to leave the house, but are you going to ask him to? How long are you planning to live like this?

I don't think he is recognizing the value of UA, I think he feels like you are pulling away, and he is going to try to throw you crumbs to try to keep you. After all, it worked in the past.

My plan is to stay here through the holidays. I'm also doing what I can to make this little place livable. We are separated in that sense. I also am working on plans to be financially self-sufficient (like taking my ex back to court for increased child support, looking into a part time teaching job on the side, etc.) If I moved out, I'd basically be trusting that he would pay this mortgage (he could afford to, but would he bother when it's not in his name? no.) I no longer think that's a good idea, to let my finances get even more shaky. As long as I can emotionally handle this situation, I'll stay with it.

I agree with you about the UA. I think I'm going to tell him today that I'd be happy to spend time with him if it is part of a joint commitment to our marriage and to working a marriage recovery plan, but that until he wants to commit to a better, stronger marriage, the separation is good for me, and as a single mother, I have to take care of me to take care of the children. What do you think?

I've been reading Lovebusters and asked DH to read it to hopefully let him see that the issues he sees in me that he wants to define as "traits of borderline personality disorder" are recognizable in marriages, and can be addressed (my AOs and DJs). Also to tell him that I am willing to address them and have been working on it (he's previously acknowledged improvements, but I also slip up at times, and I've seen how that just brings us back to square one or even further).

This is still a really difficult situation to be in emotionally. His birthday is this weekend and I'm not sure how to handle it really. I still love him and miss him and want to shower him with affection and attention like I used to, yet I'm having so much trouble feeling rejected or not reciprocated all the time.

We didn't end up having UA time, he just trailed away to the other house after we chatted a bit. He said he'd be by in the morning to give me a chance to sleep in then didn't follow through, which irritated the heck out of me (it's one of the things I'd really like, and was really looking forward to, and it just bummed me out that he would dangle it in front of me then not follow through). He also said he'd cook a big weekend breakfast, but the electricity went out from a tree branch knocking the line to our house, so he just hung out over here making me feel like my personal space was invaded, not doing anything helpful, and I kept getting more and more irritated. I just wanted him to be proactive...to fire up the grill and cook outside, since it was just windy not rainy, or to take the kids to the store to get a coffee cake, or something. Instead he just hung out, time clicked along, the kids and I were hungrier and hungrier, and I confronted him with an AO (away from the kids, I asked him to go outside, and it wasn't a screaming and yelling fest, just telling him how I felt about the whole situation). I also told him that if he wants to proceed with breaking up our marriage, he had to realize that that would be harmful to the kids, that he knew it having grown up in a divorced household himself how hard that was, and that not only was he choosing then to steal half of my child away from me, he was also choosing to steal half of our son's mommy love away from him, and that in the long run, that would be harmful to our son. I said if our child could talk to him, he'd ask him to give it every shot in the world, to try everything to keep our family together, and all I was asking was a commitment to trying, to putting divorce/separation off the table. I said I'd be willing to have it be for a set period if that made it easier, but that it had to be complete committment to working on our marriage, not waffling, and that we would have to sit down and make a plan about what we were going to do.

He took it all somewhat well, said he thought I was trying to manipulate him, I admitted I was, but that it was to save our marriage and I do truly believe that our son wants his family to be together and that he should realize that. He's said he'd talk to me about it some other time, but the next night, of course, had nothing to say, and hasn't brought it up since.

You cant negotiate with or educate a wayward. Right now he wants to separate, while jerking you around with crumbs of attention. He doesnt care about your AOs. Except for that they provide him with an excuse. He wants that excuse, he doenst want to be talked out of it.



Hes a wayward, hes not the h you know and love. He cant love you while he remains in the throes of an affair addiction It is very difficult but you have to put emotion aside. Plan A for short time -two to three weeks, then go Plan B. Dont base your responses on what he says/does or your emotions. Just follow the yellow brick road of Plan A and B. No matter how scary it gets.



You are giving a lot of attention to what he says and does. Why? It doesnt matter at all. he's drunk, fogged out. what he says is bound to be either untrue or nonsense.

You do the plans to him. Stop watching him or taking any notice of him. Once hes out of the A and on board with recovery you can communicate but dont pay any attention until then.

Plan A - I am fantastic, WH but I expect commitment and honesty from you (then dont listen to response)

Plan B - I have a fantastic marriage waiting for you, if you meet my conditions. Until hten, Im gone. (then dont allow any reposnse)

Anything he says is just noise.

DM, what is your plan exactly?

I had a thread here originally then it got moved to SAA, because my husband began initiating an emotional affair this summer (I caught him, it ended, I have been monitoring since and it is not an issue and didn't develop much at all). Focusing on the EA is a side issue to our problems. I went on the radio show and they recommended separating, but I can't do it without ruining my finances even more (basically, I'd have to trust that my husband would pay the mortgage, and I don't trust him, it's in my name only because he wasn't working for three years).

Lonely and Losing Hope thread in SAA

So why can't I plan A? We have been living through renovations for about 7 months and he does virtually no work on the house. Every time I look around, I am reminded of what he's destroyed in our environment and overwhelmed by it. He's also been gaslighting me and it has affected my mental health to the point where I've gotten to really bad lows around him (just this morning I was remembering how a couple of months ago, I was thinking how nice it would be to get in a car accident, not die or anything, just get hurt enough to have some time off and relax.) I need separation from him for my mental health. It has also impacted my ability to parent, because all the frustrations that I have with him, that I was suppressing when I plan A'd, would leech out with my kids (having no patience, etc.)

So, I'm really at a loss. I don't know where to go from here. I've asked to sit down with him and work out a schedule for the kids and finances, and am playing phone tag with a friend who offered to watch the kids for a few hours. Right now, though, he's continuing to mess with our already shaky finances.

He recently redirected his direct deposit to his own checking account, then has been not transferring all of it yet using our joint account and not paying bills. Every time he does this, I point out how we just don't have the money right now for him to do it (we only have about $80 to spend on each kid for Christmas and no savings to speak of, and that's if we keep putting our money in the same pot) and that when he makes these decisions unilaterally without involving me in a plan to separate our finances, which I am in agreement with doing, he's being unfair.

I'd love some guidance about how to get to a point to use the MB program.

Desperate, when you separate, you should file for divorce so he is forced LEGALLY to pay your bills. There is no magic wand that is going to force your husband to commit to your marriage. Staying with him is going to erode your mental and physical health.

I am sorry you are in this fix.

What was the date of your show so I can post it for others to hear? I do remember listening to it. Dr Harley doesn't often tell people to separate but it seemed pretty clear cut in your case.

I am in complete shock reading this. This long post about how you have made a "decision" to separate and move forward and then commence to tell us that you are maintaining the status quo. What has changed, Desperate? I am still reading...

ok, there is no plan here. You are still in the same position as when you called Dr Harley. Is there a plan to separate from him?

I lost track of your situation because we have 500 screen names of "desperate" on this board. In order to follow your story I would have to re-read your thread EVERY TIME to remember which "desperate" you are.

Please consider changing your screen name to something people can remember. And please stick to one thread.

Dr Harley told you to separate and contact an attorney to protect yourself legally: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3393

What he described was essentially Plan B.

I think you are confused on what separating/Plan B requires. It does not require trust. Obviously trust is impossible. It does not require the two of you agreeing to financial arrangements, or you trusting him to keep them. Obviously noone in this situation can do that.

The law will take care of making sure he meets his obligations. No trust can be extended, and none is involved.

You need a lawyer.

Your mental health is deteriorating. You should seriously consider antidepressants to help you through this, so you can keep your wits about you and form and execute a plan.

Thanks for the clarification. The thing I'm troubled with at this moment is can I plan B when we live in houses on the same lot? (I don't think this would be possible).

I am an attorney myself, although not in family law. I know what he would be required to pay, and absent getting an additional order due to his having destroyed marital property in making our house unlivable, it would not be enough until/unless I can get my income up at least a few hundred dollars. So I'm working on that, and at that point I can file and also request the court order him to leave the home. I may be able to do that in a month if all goes well. So I'm planning for that official break now, an official Plan B with all the bells and whistles (and I think I have someone who will act as intermediary as well).

But until then? I've insisted that he not come to "my" house unless invited, and minimized contact with him for my own sake. His contact with the kids has been limited some as a result, although I've told him I'm happy to plan times for him to be with the kids, and they are more than able to cross the yard and go see him, although have no inclination to do so. To be honest, they aren't minding his absence much at all. He spent some time with his son yesterday and asked to cook dinner for the kids tonight, which I agreed to. I think at some point we need to talk to them and let them know what's going on, but right now I'm not totally sure myself so it would be hard to share

Does this sound like a good step under the circumstances? I think I can do a full plan B by mid-January if the second job works out. Until then, we'll just have to see. I am taking the kids to see relatives out of town over Christmas, he is going to his mom's house also out of town.

Based on his websearches, he's still trying to see MarriageBuilders as dangerous (he even did a search "Willard Harley delusional." But I'd given him Lovebusters to read and asked for it back if he wasn't reading it, and he said he was, so I said keep it for now. He also went to Google+ a few days ago and did a search for the woman he'd had an emotional affair with, so maybe that dream is still playing into his own delusions at this point.

Stop talking to him about Marriage Builders. You are giving him your strategy guide.

The only thing he should have about Marriage Builders is the book Surviving an Affair.

If you have even talked to him about Plan A, Plan B, you are making a tremendous mistake.